Pomeg glitch pokemon discussion

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Matthew

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With the ADV Pomeg berry glitch, pokemon can be trained while in an egg, obtaining level-up moves and evolving. The fact that pokemon can evolve inside an egg doesn't effect the metagame as even though the fully evolved pokemon is hatched from an egg at level 5, it is not the starting pokemon in the evolution line.

However, with this glitch there are a few pokemon who gain some useful moves, that can directly effect the metagame. Porygon, Staryu, and Zigzagoon all get powerful new moves which they can use to a full advantage. Porygon has access to Tri Attack, Recover, and Agility, making it a very powerful set up sweeper, or a bulky pokemon with a 50% recovery move. Porygon cannot have Download while using any of these moves unfortunately. Staryu can now use Hydro Pump, Rapid Spin, and Recover, probably dethroning Squirtle as the best Spinner in Little Cup. Zigzagoon got what it finally wanted with ExtremeSpeed and Belly Drum, however it cannot use that moveset with it's Diamond/Pearl ability, Gluttony.

I think all of these are pretty big changes, and you can now use them on the ladder, though if someone is using an illegal moveset (like Gluttony BDES 'Zoon) then tell them it's not allowed and ask them to leave. If they refuse have a moderator or a driver talk to them.

Discuss the pokemon and their effects on the metagame here, happy playing!
 

Dubulous

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this is stupid.

we shouldn't allow glitches in a game's programming to change our metagame so significantly. they're glitches; it is unethical to exploit them. even still, early this year we had implemented the japanese breeding mechanincs, which allowed any pokemon to learn any move, essentially. why then, since it is "in the game" and "part of the game's programming," aren't we allowed to exploit these?

i see no difference in terms of ethics. competitively, one is broken and one is not, but to me that doesn't make a difference. to be taken seriously at all, we need to either allow both or allow none. we need to be consistent in our actions.
 

iss

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OH SHIT
OH SHIT
OH SHIT
OH SHIT
OH SHIT

Anyways, it will make a (maybe) small impact.

BD Zig- Because it cannot get Gluttony, it needs to get a Sub up, and I doubt there is a mon in LC that will let it. Otherwise, it just gets 16 Speed, and we can use "stuff" (I can't think right now) to kill it. Ghosts will be its demise as well.

Agility Pory- It will be strong, but without lo it is too weak to ko some threats and without oran it can be koed with priority.

Staryu- Rspin is not gamebreaking. Recover is annoying and will make Staryu a lot better but not broken, and hpump (i don't think) koes anything significant. If anything it will make gravity sets better. (But with gravity you have to give up recover or an attacking move, and that's not good either.)
 

david stone

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Please read up on previous discussions before you say things without basis. We do not need to allow all or no glitches, just like we don't need to allow all or no Pokemon, or all or no items. It's possible to ban what moves a Pokemon learn, so we can choose to ban the Transform glitch.

However, the default is that things are not banned. We only ban things that prove worthy of being banned.

Also we should not just say "Oh I know this will be horrible. Ban it now!". Test things prior to banning, not after.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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this is stupid.

we shouldn't allow glitches in a game's programming to change our metagame so significantly. they're glitches; it is unethical to exploit them. even still, early this year we had implemented the japanese breeding mechanincs, which allowed any pokemon to learn any move, essentially. why then, since it is "in the game" and "part of the game's programming," aren't we allowed to exploit these?

i see no difference in terms of ethics. competitively, one is broken and one is not, but to me that doesn't make a difference. to be taken seriously at all, we need to either allow both or allow none. we need to be consistent in our actions.
Because of the massive effect of that glitch compared to this one, we only ban what is allowed within the game when there is a very, very good reason (like being able to give any Pokemon with mimic any move for example). In this case it only has a relatively small effect, so there is not enough justification to block this glitch.

I also have a question about the glich. Do you gain EV's from facing opponets using this glich?
You will gain EVs, but can remove them with berries. I guess this makes all EV spreads possible in ADV, which is a nice simplification for when that gets going.

Legality stuff is going to get complex though... I'll get a non perfect list of what is newly allowed by this up soon, gen can edit it into the OP.

GENEDIT: thanks eric
 
Can't believe I raised awareness of this. :D

Basically, ANY Pokemon (except Sinnoh Pokemon) allowed in little cup can learn all of it's level up moves as opposed to just TMs and the moves it learns from Level 5 downwards?

I totally forgot you could gain EV's from this too. D:

Just read some more. You changed the Shoddy moveset? :D

Never would have thought I would change a metagame so quickly.

EDIT: Oh yeah, you did only do this for Pokemon available to 3rd Gen games right? So you didn't allow Turtwig to get all of it's level up moves, for example.
 

Matthew

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Can't believe I raised awareness of this. :D

Basically, ANY Pokemon (except Sinnoh Pokemon) allowed in little cup can learn all of it's level up moves as opposed to just TMs and the moves it learns from Level 5 downwards?

I totally forgot you could gain EV's from this too. D:

Just read some more. You changed the Shoddy moveset? :D

Never would have thought I would change a metagame so quickly.

EDIT: Oh yeah, you did only do this for Pokemon available to 3rd Gen games right? So you didn't allow Turtwig to get all of it's level up moves, for example.
Yes, only ADV and lower pokemon are effected by this. Though on Shoddy right now you can technically use Hypnosis Bronzor at level 5, no one you play will allow it.
 

Mario With Lasers

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I've never played Little Cup, but understand the concepts. How do you get Hypnosis Bronzor?
At level 7. And it's really the only way (as Bronzor/zong only breed with Ditto, and they never inherit any moves), which means it will not have Hypnosis in Little Cup anytime soon. Shoddy's Team Builder allows you to have a lv5 Bronzor with it, but it's a programming oversight, I guess.
 

Wild Eep

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Most level-up moves are obtainable at level 5 anyway because baby Pokemon can inherit level-up moves if both parents know the move. This glitch applies to genderless critters that can only breed with Ditto (which can't pass down level-up moves) as well as event eggs with special moves (which have no parents).
 
To follow up on what Obi said, this is not exactly a radical concept in competitive games. Street Fighter II has "piano key" button combo techniques that allow a character to, for example, follow one special move, leaving you with a button pressed, with another special move involving letting go of that button. Super Smash Bros. Melee has a few glitch techniques such as moonwalking and various cancels (if you want to call lazy animation a glitch lol) that are used quite readily. In StarCraft, there are ways to make units bypass obstacles like mineral patches and supply depots. These are all allowed because they're not broken. On the other hand, you have glitches like Meta Knight's Infinite Dimensional Cape glitch and Mewtwo's Soul Stunner glitch that are banned.

A competitive game knows nothing about "glitches" or any form of "honor" or "ethics" outside of the game. It only knows winning, as well as techniques that might be broken. Something might be a glitch but not be broken (and possibly even improve the game), and something else might not be a glitch and yet be broken (like Uber Pokémon).
 
Most level-up moves are obtainable at level 5 anyway because baby Pokemon can inherit level-up moves if both parents know the move. This glitch applies to genderless critters that can only breed with Ditto (which can't pass down level-up moves) as well as event eggs with special moves (which have no parents).
I was literally just about to mention this. Doesn't that mean that NFE Pokemon can learn ANY level up move at level 1/5 anyway?
 

david stone

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It's also only at level 5, not level 1. This glitch only worked in ADV, to my knowledge, and thus only eggs that could hatch in ADV are affected. This means no Hypnosis Bronzor.
 

eric the espeon

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Kannon and Heysup are currently testing exactly how the overwriting of moves while in the egg works, until we have the legality issues pinned down these moves and sets are not legal on ladder. Gen and SDS have agreed, I'm anouncing it on shoddy, if one of you two could edit something that makes this clear into the OP it would be great.
 
I was also testing it today, I tested a Marill egg with four moves and it leveled up to level 6.

Results as shown:




It's extremely tedious, but is quite viable. :)
 

Matthew

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Well that's that. Have fun with the pokemon gang

and a big thank you to Mountain Dewgong too.
 

Heysup

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If emulators are legit, then this is great. Otherwise I can start testing again and stop being lazy.....

GENEDIT: <&Colin> an emulator is fine, assuming we're dealing with a reliable ROM dump

HEYSUPEDIT: Awesome! Time to sweep with Ziggy!
 
Doesn't this also mean that pokemon that could only get moves in their second or third evolutions now can get them in their regular state?

e.g. Nincada with SD/Baton Pass/Agil?

or do the pokemon literally evolve in the egg so that when you hatch it you hatch a baby ninjask or w/e?

Someone should test evolving a nincada and see what happens with Shedinija.
 

Dubulous

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the pokemon evolves within its egg.

shedinja is interesting to think about, though i doubt you could get him through the pomeg glitch just because of the nature of the evolution (it happens inside of the egg as opposed to going into a screen). regardless, it doesn't really pertain to little cup as shedinja is still illegal to use.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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If you're up for it that would be great. Its a handy glitch especially for ADV EV training, assuming EVs are kept when it hatches. Actually, that would be easy to check, just use some EV reducing berries on a pokemon you have trained in the egg once it hatches. The Level is set back to 5, moves are kept and species is kept.. wonder if the current EXP is also set back to normal.

Thanks to all you testers for working to confirm this! And to TPH for somewhat inadvertently bringing this to light.
 

eric the espeon

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Overview of the effects:

Egg Event moves
These are now legal with ADV (specifically Emerald) level up moves. They are still illegal with 4th gen only moves, 4th gen only abilities, and egg moves not distributed with the event.

(Checked against Tooth's list, Serebii's list and Pokesecure's list. Only disagreement was for Bellsprout. Serebii disagreed with the others, it said Petal Dance not Teeter Dance, I went with majority.)
Oddish (Leech Seed)
Meowth (Petal Dance)
Psyduck (Mud Sport)
Poliwag (Sweet Scent)
Bellsprout (Teeter Dance)
Drowzee (Belly Drum + Wish) Illegal with NP, ZH, Psyco Cut
Exeggcute (Sweet Scent + Wish)
Lickitung (Heal Bell + Wish) Illegal with Power Whip, Hammer Arm, Muddy Water
Pichu (Teeter Dance) (Follow Me) (Wish)
Igglybuff (Tickle)
Zigzagoon (Extremespeed) Not legal with Gluttony.
Taillow (Featherdance)
Ralts (Charm) (Wish)
Surskit (Mud Sport) massive competitive change here... Mud Sport + Water Sport is now legal on Surskit!
Whismur (Teeter Dance)
Wynaut (Tickle)
Skitty (Rollout) (Pay Day)
Swablu (False Swipe) draco will be so happy
Bagon (Iron Defence) (Wish)

Genderless Pokemon
These Pokemon are now legal with level up moves obtained only in Gen 3, but not when combined with Gen 4 only Lv. up moves or Gen 4 Lv. up moves.

Baltoy (Psybeam, Cosmic Power)
Beldum (none)
Bronzor (not available in gen 3, none)
Magnemite (Thundershock, Supersonic, Sonicboom, Spark, Lock-on, Screech, Zap Cannon)
Porygon (Psybeam, Agility, Recover, Lock-On, Tri Attack, Zap Cannon) Magnet Rise is illegal with these.
Staryu (Water Gun, Rapid Spin, Recover, Camouflage, Bubblebeam, Minimize, Cosmic Power, Hydro Pump)
Voltorb (Sonicboom, Spark, Rollout, Screech, Mirror Coat)

Mono Gender Pokemon
Like Genderless Pokemon these can't get all their level up moves, but they can get those for which there is a usable parent of the opposite gender who gets it. Most of their level up moves are have horrible legality issues, some are just illegal. Now all of the lv. up moves from Emerald are legal, at least with other 3rd gen moves.

Happiny (not available in Gen 3)
Nidoran-F (can breed with Smeargle, no change)
Nidoran-M (Now Legal with most moves: Fury Attack, Horn Attack, Horn Drill)
Smoochum (Now Legal with most moves: Powder Snow, Perish Song, Lucky Chant. Smoochum's gigantic list of other illegal combos will have become much better.)
Tyrogue (no problematic moves)

Note that while these moves are now legal, they are NOT legal with all other moves. If you are caught using these moves on ladder with a 4th gen only move (TMs and Tutors are fine) or ability it is the same as if you use any other illegal set. I have noted a couple that will be encountered most often, and we will try to get a full legality list up asap, but untill then check before using these moves.

(thought it was best to have this in a separate post)
 
Doesn't this also mean that pokemon that could only get moves in their second or third evolutions now can get them in their regular state?

e.g. Nincada with SD/Baton Pass/Agil?

or do the pokemon literally evolve in the egg so that when you hatch it you hatch a baby ninjask or w/e?

Someone should test evolving a nincada and see what happens with Shedinija.
Can't you cancel the evolution in the egg though? If it said "EGG is evolving!" couldn't you just hit B to cancel it and keep leveling it in the egg?
 
I think we should allow it unless proven to be broken, I could see Hydro Pump Staryu being powerful as well as obviously Porygon.
 
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