Prevailing attitudes regarding OU as being the "Best"

elchupo

Okay, let me just preface this by saying that the aim of this thread is to get a discussion going regarding the topic, and is not a rant.

One of the things I've noticed in my (relatively) short time here is the overwhelming attitude that OU, and by association OU Pokemon, is the best, the epitome or peak of competitive Pokemon battling. On the other side of this coin is the attitude that Pokemon who are NOT OU are bad, simply because they can't viably be used in the OU metagame. Often times you don't get one of those opinions without the other. So yeah, whats the point? Well to put things into context let me provide a quote I took note of, after posing the question in a thread a while back:

Well, if a pokémon needs all the most widely used 'mon banned for it to survive, it's not the best... I've never really understood why anyone would want to play UU. I have absolutely nothing against UU 'mon, mind, but surely it's much more satisfying to win with NU/UU 'mon in OU, than having to ban a huge portion of the metagame before you can win.
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I'll get onto why I feel that attitude is wrong in a minute. First let me say that I do not play OU, and stick solely to UU, venturing only into NU the odd time to mess around with NFE's and such. I do this because way back when I was first getting into online battling, I realised most of the pokemon I liked were not OU, and fell into UU/NU. And to this day I still prefer to use pokemon I like, instead of using whatever is at the top of the tier, which in UU atm happens to be Milotic and Venusaur, to name two.
Back in that time I also quickly skimmed over OU, and it seemed like such a small number of pokemon that occupied that tier, so I immediately decided I never wanted to be limited to them, and have never played OU.

So let me provide my reply to the previous quote:

Or you could argue that, because the tier lists get larger as you move down from OU (barring BL) a greater amount of skill is needed to play because there are a much larger number of viable threats, both defensively and offensively, instead of just picking pokemon, X,Y,Z (Scizor, Blissey, Skarmory perhaps?) No?
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Currently the difference between the numbers in OU and UU is one Pokemon more in UU. Hardly a "much larger number of viable threats". However, I still feel my statement is correct, when taking into account NU. There are Pokemon in NU that ARE viable threats in UU, but due to the tiers infancy there hasn't been enough testing done. Even well established NU Pokemon such as Espeon are extremely usable in UU.

The same cannot be said for UU pokemon in OU, for one reason: BL. BL acts as a barrier and limbo between UU and OU, where pokemon too "good" for UU not quite "good" enough for OU go. Bar specialist teams, such as RD or Trick Room, Pokemon from the lower tiers never infiltrate OU, and only recently dropped Pokemon, such as Umbreon, can be expected to rise again.

Regarding said attitudes, I see it being appropriated everywhere on the site. For example, take the article in issue 7 of the Smog "The Best Abilities (On the Worst Pokemon)" http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue7/abilities. The article disregards any of the pokemon like Pinsir, Clefable, Yanmega, Poliwrath, Quagsire et al, as the "Worst" (all not OU) and advocates who would benefit from said abilities (most of the pokemon being OU) and what pokemon they would be able to deal with now (again, all OU). Any mention of a non- OU pokemon gaining an ability is so that it could "make the jump to OU". So basically, OU pokemon should get other "terrible" Pokemon's abilities to make them even better at being OU.

I could go on more but I feel this is already pretty lengthy as it is.

Regarding the purpose of this thread: Do you feel OU is the "best"? If so, why so? What do you prefer in OU/UU/NU over other metagames? Do you think that simply not being usable in OU makes a Pokemon bad?
 
As much as I want to say "every Pokemon is good and unique," it's just not true. However, the number of bad Pokemon is small. Everything from UU+ is definitely good. That makes up about half of the fully evolved Pokemon and in NU, only half the Pokemon there are actually bad so that leaves 3/4 of fully evolved Pokemon great to ok. I'm not a big tier person. Labeling Pokemon in tiers help organize the metagame but it causes a lot of kids to think that Pokemon below OU are bad. Underused and Neverused have very negative connotations so that's why it's more fun to battle people who are unaware of the tiers. They tend to have a varied team, something hardly see anymore.
 
Well, to put it bluntly, OU Pokemon are OU because they ARE the best. On whether the OU metagame is the "best", personally, I find it to be fun, but other games, such as NU or UU, to be more fun because there are generally more creative options when team building. That being said, it all comes down to personal preference and yours is a point that is based completely on that preference.
 
OU is not supposed to mean "the best", simply "the most used". Hence the named Overused. By the same token, though, there has to be a reason people are using them the most, right? I hesitate to say "because they're the best", since Magic Guard and a huge support movepool definitely make Clefable viable in any tier. However, there's no denying that it's way easier to sweep with Salamence than Seviper.
 
Class said:
Well, to put it bluntly, OU Pokemon are OU because they ARE the best. On whether the OU metagame is the "best", personally, I find it to be fun, but other games, such as NU or UU, to be more fun because there are generally more creative options when team building. That being said, it all comes down to personal preference and yours is a point that is based completely on that preference.
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Are OU Pokemon not OU because they are OverUsed? Sorry to be a pain, but I wanted to point out the disparity between basing the tiers on usage and labeling such pokemon the "best" because of that fact.
 
elchupo said:
Are OU Pokemon not OU because they are OverUsed? Sorry to be a pain, but I wanted to point out the disparity between basing the tiers on usage and labeling such pokemon the "best" because of that fact.
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Why do you think they are overused? Because they suck? The current overused Pokemon are the best Pokemon (at least for this specific metagame).

Pokemon like Lubdisk could essentially become OU if used enough times. However, that won't happen because people using Luvdisk would not win against equally skilled opponents using something better. So yeah, overused Pokemon are essentially the best Pokemon.
 
It's pretty hard to explain because there's no exact answer. OU Pokemon are OU because they're used a lot and they are used a lot for a reason. The reason is because they are the "best." Best is in quotes because it's not a definite best. It's hard to explain. You can just say they're the best because that's the simplest way to put it even though it's not 100% true.
 
elchupo said:
Currently the difference between the numbers in OU and UU is one Pokemon more in UU. Hardly a "much larger number of viable threats". However, I still feel my statement is correct, when taking into account NU. There are Pokemon in NU that ARE viable threats in UU, but due to the tiers infancy there hasn't been enough testing done. Even well established NU Pokemon such as Espeon are extremely usable in UU.

The same cannot be said for UU pokemon in OU, for one reason: BL. BL acts as a barrier and limbo between UU and OU, where pokemon too "good" for UU not quite "good" enough for OU go. Bar specialist teams, such as RD or Trick Room, Pokemon from the lower tiers never infiltrate OU, and only recently dropped Pokemon, such as Umbreon, can be expected to rise again.
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I don't think you understand how tiers are made. They are not arbitrarily established by the "elite community" (well, the ban tiers are, but that's beside the point). There is no conspiracy to keep Clefable UU. The point of UU is to give people a competitive environment in which they can play with all the Pokemon that don't cut it for OU. Tiers do not establish the "quality" of the Pokemon, they just organize the metagame.

BL exists because you can't just ban a large list of Pokemon that people use a lot and expect to have a balanced metagame with everything else. BL is not "worse than OU and better than UU." I find some UU Pokemon like Clefable and Ludicolo are more viable in OU than BL Pokemon like Yanmega and Cresselia.

I call bullshit on NU Pokemon being more usable in UU than UU in OU. NU is created exactly in the same way UU was created from OU. Pokemon that aren't used in UU get moved to NU, so that people can enjoy playing with Pokemon that don't quite belong in the higher tiers. Of course, there are some Pokemon that are NU just because there are better options in UU. Espeon isn't a bad Pokemon, it's just not used because Alakazam is basically the same thing except better. NU Pokemon aren't bad, they're just "never" used. Hell, Cradily is viable in OU.

If the metagame had a few more years to run before Gen 5 took over, we would probably see the establishment of a ban tier for NU. I don't play NU because right now it's just a big assortment of Pokemon that hasn't been tweaked at all and isn't very interesting.
 
Wow, that first quote is from me. I feel important.

Anyway, what I said in that original quote was probably too strong. My point is, I would find it somewhat depressing that if I wanted to use, say, Marowak, but instead of finding a way to realise his potential in OU, I banned every halfway decent 'mon and used it in NU. I remember seeing the log of a battle where someone 6-0'd an all-OU team with Charge Beam Lanturn, and someone mentioning in their sig that they'd swept with Marowak in NU, UU and OU, and were now going for ubers. Those are the kind of things I'd like to use NU/UU 'mon for. Another example of this, is in a Rain Dance team I've been running lately, I use a Floatzel as my lategame cleanup sweeper. On one occasion, I was down 4-1 with floatzel, and I ended up winning. On several occasions I've OHKOd Mences trying to revenge me, outside of rain.
There is a supreme satisfaction of sweeping an OU team with an NU mon.

Basically, what I'm saying is that winning with an NU mon in OU >>>> winning with an NU mon in NU, which is why I dislike all metagames below OU.
 
I actually prefer Ubers over all the other metagames, because it lets me take advantage of signature legendaries that every trainer wants to have. It is extremely satisfying and fun to obliterate teams with Deoxys-A or SpecsOgre, shut down a pokemon with Dark Void, or something to that extent. Ubers also requires a LOT more strategy than what it appears to need at first glance because you need to use your powerhouses to their full potential while preventing your opponent from doing the same. And, in Ubers, pretty much every pokemon you see there centralizes the metagame, so they essentially cancel each other out.

I happen to be annoyed that you didn't even give Ubers a mention in the first post...
 
Efemera said:
I don't think you understand how tiers are made. They are not arbitrarily established by the "elite community" (well, the ban tiers are, but that's beside the point). There is no conspiracy to keep Clefable UU. The point of UU is to give people a competitive environment in which they can play with all the Pokemon that don't cut it for OU. Tiers do not establish the "quality" of the Pokemon, they just organize the metagame.

BL exists because you can't just ban a large list of Pokemon that people use a lot and expect to have a balanced metagame with everything else. BL is not "worse than OU and better than UU." I find some UU Pokemon like Clefable and Ludicolo are more viable in OU than BL Pokemon like Yanmega and Cresselia.

I call bullshit on NU Pokemon being more usable in UU than UU in OU. NU is created exactly in the same way UU was created from OU. Pokemon that aren't used in UU get moved to NU, so that people can enjoy playing with Pokemon that don't quite belong in the higher tiers. Of course, there are some Pokemon that are NU just because there are better options in UU. Espeon isn't a bad Pokemon, it's just not used because Alakazam is basically the same thing except better. NU Pokemon aren't bad, they're just "never" used. Hell, Cradily is viable in OU.

If the metagame had a few more years to run before Gen 5 took over, we would probably see the establishment of a ban tier for NU. I don't play NU because right now it's just a big assortment of Pokemon that hasn't been tweaked at all and isn't very interesting.
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First things first, I know how tiers are made. Secondly, the Pokemon you mentioned, Clefable, Ludicolo and Cradily, all have certain qualities that make them viable on specialist teams. Are you likely to see them in teams that aren't SS or RD? No. Like I said in the original post.
Finally, NU Pokemon are often called up to UU when something from OU drops down, like the case of Slowking and Moltres. It's only when people feel that nothing in the current metagame can handle the threat. Heck, I think Moltres was NU for a while before it became a suspect, which is pretty crazy to think of. All it takes is someone to try it, and that "big assortment of Pokemon" you speak of in NU is exactly the cause, because alot of Pokemon simply haven't been tried enough. This doesn't happen in OU because, well things don't drop down from Ubers that often, or at all.

To back this up, one pokemon that I think is extreme viable in UU is Stallicuno. The thing is beastly. But yet it's only NU, which by some peoples definitions, makes it a terrible Pokemon.

Spenstar said:
I actually prefer Ubers over all the other metagames, because it lets me take advantage of signature legendaries that every trainer wants to have. It is extremely satisfying and fun to obliterate teams with Deoxys-A or SpecsOgre, shut down a pokemon with Dark Void, or something to that extent. Ubers also requires a LOT more strategy than what it appears to need at first glance because you need to use your powerhouses to their full potential while preventing your opponent from doing the same. And, in Ubers, pretty much every pokemon you see there centralizes the metagame, so they essentially cancel each other out.

I happen to be annoyed that you didn't even give Ubers a mention in the first post...
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I didn't mention Ubers for the fact that it seems to exist apart from the tiers of usage, and in actual fact, ARE the best Pokemon when talking about Stats, Abilities and Moves.

domeface said:
Wow, that first quote is from me. I feel important.

Anyway, what I said in that original quote was probably too strong. My point is, I would find it somewhat depressing that if I wanted to use, say, Marowak, but instead of finding a way to realise his potential in OU, I banned every halfway decent 'mon and used it in NU. I remember seeing the log of a battle where someone 6-0'd an all-OU team with Charge Beam Lanturn, and someone mentioning in their sig that they'd swept with Marowak in NU, UU and OU, and were now going for ubers. Those are the kind of things I'd like to use NU/UU 'mon for. Another example of this, is in a Rain Dance team I've been running lately, I use a Floatzel as my lategame cleanup sweeper. On one occasion, I was down 4-1 with floatzel, and I ended up winning. On several occasions I've OHKOd Mences trying to revenge me, outside of rain.
There is a supreme satisfaction of sweeping an OU team with an NU mon.

Basically, what I'm saying is that winning with an NU mon in OU >>>> winning with an NU mon in NU, which is why I dislike all metagames below OU.
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I didn't want to give the name of the quoter to keep the discussion anonymous lol.
I feel you are justifying my point to a certain extent. If a team consisting of the "Best" Pokemon in OU can be not only be beaten, but swept by NU and UU's, why are they still the "Best"?
 
So let me see if I have this right. You're complaining that just because a Pokemon is NU, some people think it's not even worth considering.

Well, okay. It's not like you can ignore them or something.
 
Efemera said:
So let me see if I have this right. You're complaining that just because a Pokemon is NU, some people think it's not even worth considering.

Well, okay. It's not like you can ignore them or something.
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Again, No. I mentioned in the first post how it wasn't a rant or complaining. I was simply backing up my point by giving an example. It's what people do some times.

Like I already said, the entire point of the thread is to discuss the ATTITUDES regarding tiers, and to what extent they're "right". I'm simply arguing my case that they're not.
 
elchupo said:
If a team consisting of the "Best" Pokemon in OU can be not only be beaten, but swept by NU and UU's, why are they still the "Best"?
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Because sometimes it's how you play and not the Pokemon you use. Have you seen Ubers being swept by NFEs or NUs? That's because you get an experienced person with excellent strategies that knows the best in the lower tiered Pokemon versus a beginner who goes all offense and does not know the how to deal with certain situations. If both players are on equal playing levels of experience but different tiers, the result would be different. On PBR, nothing is harder than fighting an Uber user that knows that he's doing.
 
Spenstar said:
Garchomp would like to have a word with you...
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What do you mean by this? Are you implying that Garchomp is not overpowered? If so, you are basing that on nothing but experience playing ubers. Sure Garchomp may not be on the same level as many of the other ubers but that is completely besides the point. Garchomp was deemed uber not because he was able to hold his own in that environment but because he was overpowered and very difficult to stop in OU. I do not know from experience but from what I read Garchomp was only defeated my a few checks that were not guaranteed remove him. Between sand veil, yache berry and his 102 base speed you were in a very scary place if he got in against a pokemon who had to switch out.
 
Proboscidea said:
Because sometimes it's how you play and not the Pokemon you use. Have you seen Ubers being swept by NFEs or NUs? That's because you get an experienced person with excellent strategies that knows the best in the lower tiered Pokemon versus a beginner who goes all offense and does not know the how to deal with certain situations. If both players are on equal playing levels of experience but different tiers, the result would be different. On PBR, nothing is harder than fighting an Uber user that knows that he's doing.
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There's also an element of being able to sweep with, say, Floatzel, not despite but because it's NU, meaning nobody prepares for it, and a team being Floatzel-weak isn't a big deal. Until I come along with my Floatzel.
 
Proboscidea said:
Because sometimes it's how you play and not the Pokemon you use. Have you seen Ubers being swept by NFEs or NUs? That's because you get an experienced person with excellent strategies that knows the best in the lower tiered Pokemon versus a beginner who goes all offense and does not know the how to deal with certain situations. If both players are on equal playing levels of experience but different tiers, the result would be different. On PBR, nothing is harder than fighting an Uber user that knows that he's doing.
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Are you implying that when this occurs the player using the NU/UU has exceptional knowledge and skill and that the opposing Ubers player is a noob?

domeface said:
There's also an element of being able to sweep with, say, Floatzel, not despite but because it's NU, meaning nobody prepares for it, and a team being Floatzel-weak isn't a big deal. Until I come along with my Floatzel.
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How is being weak to Floatzel much different from being weak to say, Vaporeon, or other water types?
 
domeface said:
There's also an element of being able to sweep with, say, Floatzel, not despite but because it's NU, meaning nobody prepares for it, and a team being Floatzel-weak isn't a big deal. Until I come along with my Floatzel.
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How can any good team be Floatzel weak?

His only good physical options are:Waterfall,Crunch,Brick Break,Ice Punch and Aqua Jet.

If a team doesn't have a poke that can take those,especially coming from a fricken' Floatzel then it has problems.
 
Ever heard of natural selection? When you are building a team, are you going to pick a pokemon who is better for your team, or worse for your team? Of course the one that's better. Now multiply that by the thousands of people who use smogon and make teams on it, and you have a many many people choosing the "better" pokemon for their team. This many many people choosing one thing over another because it is "better" is what makes something OU as opposed to UU.
 
elchupo said:
Are you implying that when this occurs the player using the NU/UU has exceptional knowledge and skill and that the opposing Ubers player is a noob?
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Yep. Go on WiFi. You'll know what I'm talking about. You won't believe how many times Giratina used Shadow Force on Girafarig.

This battle is a great example of what I'm talking about.*

*Overhazard is someone on Smogon. I was surprised to learn that.
 
I use NU/UU pokemon in OU. I'm a firm believer that Porygon2 doesn't get the props it deserves. True there is a fewer ratio of usable UU/NUs to just plain sucky/outclassed UU/NUs. But what is OU again? Overused. I will agree also that it is pretty satisfying beating cookie cutter OU teams with a mix of UU/NU/OU.
 
mrguy888 said:
What do you mean by this? Are you implying that Garchomp is not overpowered? If so, you are basing that on nothing but experience playing ubers. Sure Garchomp may not be on the same level as many of the other ubers but that is completely besides the point. Garchomp was deemed uber not because he was able to hold his own in that environment but because he was overpowered and very difficult to stop in OU. I do not know from experience but from what I read Garchomp was only defeated my a few checks that were not guaranteed remove him. Between sand veil, yache berry and his 102 base speed you were in a very scary place if he got in against a pokemon who had to switch out.
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No, what I mean is that Garchomp was moved up to Ubers because he over-centralized the metagame, more so than his being overpowered. He is still very powerful, even for Ubers, but I don't think that was the main reason behind his promotion/exile to Ubers.
 
The problem with the posed question is that the word 'good' is relative to the environment the pokemon is in. Each pokemon performs differently in each tier because each tier has a different environment. Take Venusaur as an example, an absolute beast in UU. But no sane plater would consider running SDSaur in an OU team because 80 base Speed is worse than mediocre in OU. On top of that, both his STABs are resisted by steel, a dominant type in OU, but barely seen in UU (bar Registeel). Sure Venusaur has Earthquake to hit Steels super-effectively... oh wait no because Skarmory and Bronzong exist. However in UU, the only steel type, Registeel, is actually hit by the coverage move.

So yeah, its all about the environment.
 
Garchomp over centralized the metagame because he was overpowered. Why would a metagame revolve around a pokemon that wasn't overpowered? He forced you to either use him or have your team built to stop him. Similar to everyone having to use Scarftar or Scizor to stop Latias. Garchomp was on ~70% of team IIRC. Not even Salamence and Latias combined had that kind of usage. Over centralization is a product of being overpowered.

@Kokoloko
Perhaps a better example would be Cresselia. The only reason that Cresselia is not on the top of the OU usage is Tyranitar and to a lesser extent, Scizor. Sandstorm ruins Cresselia's recovery even when Tyranitar is not facing Cresselia. Add in crunch and pursuit and you have a major problem. With Scizor, u-turn really hurts you whether you stay or switch. Both pokemon being in the top 5 makes that environment not suitable for Cresselia despite being an amazing pokemon. So amazing in fact that is can take hits even in ubers.
 
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