Process for adding new moves

[RBG]

Unfortunately, we have proof from reliable users that WishBliss does exist. However, we do not know how its IV combinations were triggered like we do for this generation. As such, we have to assume, unfortunately that all IV/Nature combinations are possible.

The point being is that for gen 3 events, we do not know how the RNG worked for event pokemon, so we have to assume every combinations is possible. Since we know the RNG mechanism for Gen 4 however, when we add Gen 4 event Pokemon, we must use those limits. SDS' argument was you cannot say it is impossible for said pokemon to exist with specific IVs/nature, because you don't know the RNG for Gen 3, while your argument is based on the the creation of an event Pokemon which no one can prove exists. If you can crack the Gen 3 Event Pokemon IV/Nature Algorithm, then we would add said restrictions to Gen 3 pokemon. But until that time, we have to assume all Gen 3 IV/Nature combos are legal with event pokemon.

And on the other hand, we only plan on adding event moves now if they can be verified by multiple sources. obtainable by multiple people, in addition to being reported on the internet by Nintendo or some other affiliate. Old Event Pokemon would have to, unfortunately, be Grandfathered in it seems. Your Spirtomb example does not fit with said qualifications.

 

[Chou Toshio]

That said, given that 4th generation event pokemon's natured are decided by a different RNG than the IVs (which is the controllable one), you're technically able to get any nature with any legal spread, meaning that flawless or perfect hidden powers with just about any nature is possible for 4th gen event pokemon.

Unless their natures are fixed of course.

 

[RBG]

Alright, after a day of thinking in the woods (not joking) I have come up with how I feel the process should work. (Note: This is assuming there is a forum devoted to confirming event moves.)

Step 1) A thread is posted when an event is announced, with a link to a page about it, and a Screenshot of the page. The Topic's Title should be "Pokemon - Event - Moves" (i.e. "Celebi - 11th Movie Event - Nasty Plot" or "Raikou - 11th Movie Event - Weather Ball, Aura Sphere, ExtremeSpeed, Zap Cannon").

Step 2) The next post after this should be someone posting a picture of them owning the Pokemon and/or getting it from the event. Preferably, this type of post should be done more than once.

Step 3) If the Pokemon is distributed via Wondercard, the specs of the wondercard are posted, in addition to any types of IV/Nature limitations. i.e. When the wondercard for Heatran in Ranger 3 was posted, Omegadonut was able to figure out from the wondercard that is was only Quiet.

Step 4) The thread is then closed, with the last post listing all the information together in one post, and other information not listed before such as Shiny, Trainer ID/Name ect..

Step 5) Any additional releases of said pokemon in other places can be edited into the final post (Trainer ID/Name, where released ect.)

The advantage of this system, is that all info about the Event Pokemon is easy to find, everything is open, and there is ample time for multiple checks. In addition, this makes it easy to, when years have passed, to point to an easy to find thread with all the information needed about how the pokemon got the event moves.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I agree with that format (it looks familiar!) and think we should go ahead with it. Also, thinking back, it's probably better that this be a forward-looking project and that we take past event moves added (WishBliss, for instance) as grandfathered in based on "that there's little past documentation for these things". Hopefully this process, once implemented, will lift the veil from over the event moves and keep that sort of "How did this event actually happen? question from coming up.

 

[RBG]

Yeah, i got the basis of the process from your post, I was just trying to make it so we would get all info about the Pokemon possible and keep it stored in one place. The more info we collect the better for the future, and less ambiguity there will be in the future.

And I agree with the Grandfathering.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I really like RBG's proposal. I think it is simple and transparent to the entire community. And despite all my grumblings about NYPC giveaways a long time ago, I have always assumed we would have some form of Grandfather Clause for past events.

I think we should clearly list all the past events that require a competitive change, that will be grandfathered. For example, all the NYPC Wish Week pokemon from 2004 should be listed -- even the dumb stuff like Farfetch'd. But, the Gamestop pokemon from earlier this year (like Deoxys and Jirachi) should not be listed, since they have no competitive significance. Event pokemon that represented the first availability of certain items (I can't think of the rare DP berries off the top of my head) should probably be listed too.

We may even want to make threads for all the past events that we intend to grandfather, and accumulate whatever proof we can find for them, if they still remain. Screenshots of the actual pokemon, information related to Nintendo advertising, whatever we can find really. We'll grandfather the pokemon anyway, but the research would probably still be useful.

One last issue pertains to WHO we recruit for this sort of thing. I'm not sure just badgeholders is the way to go about this. I'd like to see this crowdsourced by the entire community, if possible. But, I don't want any random troll posting bogus information either. I'd like to figure out some way to have this project allow our members to help Smogon, and possibly even earn a research badge if they help a lot. I'm not quite sure how to accomplish that, without opening a can of worms.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Gamestop Jirachi was the Draco Meteor one, IIRC, so it would be a good idea to keep that one listed. Deoxys, though (and any Pokemon that doesn't give an event-specific move) should be left off of any compilation of events.

As for the "Random troll" thing, when someone tried to bullshit saying that Kabuto could learn Swords Dance in HGSS... but only on the European Cartridge, there were a bunch of us that got together in #littlecup. One of us happened to have an EU HGSS rom, and he screenshotted proof that Kabuto still couldn't learn Swords Dance. I think that the number of members who actually want to be helpful and are willing to put in the effort would defuse the effects of any troll like that.

In addition, it might be important to have consequences for posting fake events in this forum, though I'll leave deciding on the punishment to the higher-ups.

 

[RBG]

I was actually thinking instead of making threads for each of the past event pokemon, we make a sticky titled "Event Moves Pre 2010" or something like that. It's easier than making threads for all the ADV pokemon. Maybe we could make topics for all the Gen 4 event pokemon since they have been more widely announced, but I doubt we will be able to for most/all of the ADV pokemon.

And as for who can submit data, I honestly don't have a problem with allowing anyone to do it, its just that they need to have some degree of "reliability". That being said, the badgeholders are active enough and always looking and pay attention for these new pokemon moves that I doubt there would be a problem with only badgeholders starting the topics.

And I agree, we should only include events that release things unobtainable via normal gameplay (Berries, Member's Card, Oak's Letter, Azure Flute ect.) as well in addition to the "special" event pokemon that unlock significant things in game. (Shiny Pichu, Shaymin, Regigias), and not include event pokemon that don't do anything (Deoxys).

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I was actually thinking instead of making threads for each of the past event pokemon, we make a sticky titled "Event Moves Pre 2010" or something like that. It's easier than making threads for all the ADV pokemon. Maybe we could make topics for all the Gen 4 event pokemon since they have been more widely announced, but I doubt we will be able to for most/all of the ADV pokemon.

This is definitely the way to go here. Having a sticky for it is not only more condensed, but definitely separates the "pre-2010" stuff from the things that have to be dealt with using this new process.

I also really want to stick with primarily badgeholders as to who can make the submissions for reliability's sake. We can guarantee that there won't be any serious trolling attempts of the forum because of requiring badges of users. (And badged users trolling is bad for their rep') Furthermore, we could also allow specific non-badgeholders to post if they send a PM to <person in-charge> explaining why they feel that they should be allowed to post these event Pokemon. Perhaps there are some users out there that would definitely be a boon to this process, but may not be badged yet; we should keep it open for them to apply to help.

 

[RBG]

Does anyone else have any other opinions? It seems silly to start a process with only 4 people approving of it.

Also, should it the subforum be in Policy Review, C & C, or somewhere else?

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I was thinking that the forum should be in policy review, primarily because it is not a C&C endeavor, it is a site project to document and verify event moves so that they can be added to our simulator(s).

 

[Mario With Lasers]

and not include event pokemon that don't do anything (Deoxys).

Just a nitpick, that Deoxys is actually relevant, as it comes with Meteor Mash and Detect. But I agree with not creating threads for events like TRU Manaphy and such.


And I'd say the subforum should be here, for the reasons stated by Rising Dusk.

 

[RBG]

Meteor Mash and Detect Deoxys was from Ranger 3.

Thanks for the proof as to why we need this :p

Edit: Storing important Info here

Name the forum: "Event Move Verification"

ADV event moves from Gold Ursaring's Guide

Japan Pokemon Centers : April 25, 2003 to May 18, 2003

(Hatched from eggs)
Absol: Wish OR Spite
Bagon: Iron Defense OR Wish
Pichu: Teeter Dance OR Wish
Ralts: Charm OR Wish

------------

Japan Pokemon Centers: March 24, 2004 to April 4, 2004

(Hatched from eggs)
Bellsprout: Teeter Dance
Meowth: Petal Dance
Oddish: Leech Seed
Poliwag: Sweet Kiss

------------

Airport Terminal: December 5, 2004 – December 25, 2004

Pikachu: Fly

------------

Poke Park: March 12, 2005 to May 8, 2005

(Hatched from eggs)
Cacnea: Encore
Corpish: Water Sport
Corsola: Mud Sport
Igglybuff: Tickle
Minun: Mud Sport
Pichu: Follow Me
Plusle: Water Sport
Psyduck: Mud Sport
Spinda: Sing
Spoink: Uproar
Skitty: Rollout
Surskit: Mud Sport
Taillow: Feather Dance
Whismur: Teeter Dance
Wynaut: Tickle

------------

Pokemon Center New York : December 16, 2004 – January 2, 2005

(Hatched from eggs)
Chansey: Sweet Scent/Wish
Drowzee: Belly Drum/Wish
Exeggcute: Sweet Scent/Wish
Farfetch’d: Yawn/Wish
Kangaskan: Yawn/Wish
Lickitung: Heal Bell/Wish

------------

Pokemon Rocks America 2005 : 09/17/2005, 10/01/2005, 10/08/2005, 10/15/2005, 10/22/2005

Metang: Refresh

------------

Event Moves from other Games:

Pokemon Box:

(Hatched from eggs)
Swablu: False Swipe
Zigzagoon: Extremespeed
Skitty: Pay Day
Pichu: Surf

------------

Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness

Altaria: Heal Bell
Arbok: Refresh
Articuno: Heal Bell/Extrasensory/Haze
Baltoy: Refresh
Banette: Helping Hand
Beedrill: Baton Pass
Butterfree: Morning Sun
Carvanah: Refresh
Chansey: Sweet Kiss
Delcatty: Sweet Kiss
Dodrio: Baton Pass
Dragonite: Heal Bell
Dugtrio: Charm
Duskull: Helping Hand
Electabuzz: Follow Me
Exeggutor: Refresh
Farfetch’d: Baton Pass
Golduck: Charm
Grimer: Helping Hand
Growlithe: Charm
Gulpin: Sing
Hitmonchan: Helping Hand
Hitmonlee: Refresh
Houndour: Charm
Hypno: Baton Pass
Kangaskan: Sing
Lapras: Heal Bell
Ledyba: Refresh
Lugia: Psycho Boost/FeatherDance
Lunatone: Baton Pass
Magmar: Follow Me
Magcargo: Refresh
Magneton: Refresh
Makuhita: Refresh
Manectric: Refresh
Mareep: Heal Bell
Marowak: Sing
Mawile: Sing
Meowth: Sing
Moltes: Extrasensory/Morning Sun/Will-O-Wisp
Mr. Mime: Follow Me
Natu: Baton Pass
Nosepass: Helping Hand
Numel: Charm
Paras: Refresh
Pidgeotto: Refresh
Pineco: Refresh
Pinsir: Helping Hand
Poliwrath: Helping Hand
Poocheyna: Heal Bell
Primeape: Helping Hand
Ralts: Sing
Rapidash: Baton Pass
Raticate: Refresh
Rhydon: Helping Hand
Roselia: Sweet Kiss
Sableye: Helping Hand
Salamence: Refresh
Scyther: Morning Sun
Seedot: Refresh
Seel: Helping Hand
Shellder: Refresh
Shroomish: Refresh
Snorlax: Refresh
Snorunt: Sing
Solrock: Baton Pass
Spearow: Baton Pass
Spheal: Charm
Spinarak: Refresh
Starmie: Refresh
Swellow: Baton Pass
Swinub: Charm
Tangela: Morning Sun
Tauros: Refresh
Teddiursa: Refresh
Togepi: Tri-Attack
Venomoth: Refresh
Voltorb: Refresh
Vuplix: Charm
Weepinbell: Morning Sun
Zangoose: Refresh
Zapdos: Extrasensory/Metal Sound/Baton Pass

Should be all the ADV event moves above. I'll put the DPP ones in another list.

 

[RBG]

It is done.