Psyduck (LC Analysis)

[Dubulous]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/psyduck

Status: Complete
Co-authored by Kannon

[OVERVIEW]

<p>At first glance, Psyduck looks vastly inferior to the majority of usable Water-type Pokemon. Psyduck, however, has two things working for it that sets it apart: access to Cross Chop and its ability, Cloud Nine. Cross Chop allows Psyduck to threaten Snover, who walls most other Water-types easily. Cloud Nine, however, is the main reason that Psyduck is a viable option in Little Cup play. With Cloud Nine, Psyduck is able to stop weather-based teams cold. Furthermore, its respectable base 65 Special Attack and base 52 Attack stat allows Psyduck to retain general utility if the opposing team does not have a weather abuser.</p>

[SET]
name: Anti-Weather
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Cross Chop
move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Electric
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Naive
ability: Cloud Nine
evs: 24 Atk / 240 SpA / 236 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Psyduck's best chance of success in the Little Cup metagame is obtained by using a Choice Scarf. With a Choice Scarf and a Naive nature, Psyduck reaches a very good 24 Speed, which outspeeds all non-Choice Scarf users in addition to threats such as Dratini and Bagon after a Dragon Dance. Psyduck's deep movepool gives it superior type coverage and makes it a good Choice Scarf user. Additionally, Choice Scarf gives Psyduck great utility outside of the unique niche of being an end-all counter to weather-based teams.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Hydro Pump is Psyduck's most powerful STAB move and allows Psyduck to hit as hard as possible. Surf can be used if you're afraid of Hydro Pump's shaky accuracy, but then Psyduck loses the ability to 2HKO Lileep. Ice Beam OHKOes Gligar, Cacnea, and Gible, all of whom lose their Sand Veil evasion boost because of Cloud Nine. Cross Chop will 2HKO Snover through its Oran Berry while providing general utility against Aron and Munchlax late game. Hidden Power Grass is the first option on this set since it gives Psyduck the ability to OHKO Kabuto and Omanyte, as well as hitting Chinchou for good damage. On the other hand, Hidden Power Electric OHKOes Mantyke 100% of the time with Stealth Rock up. Psychic is a decent option for Psyduck, as it allows it to OHKO Croagunk, a staple on Rain Dance teams, easily. Additionally, Hypnosis can be used as a fast, counter-all move. The shaky accuracy, however, makes it a second-rate option, especially with the already shaky Hydro Pump and Cross Chop as necessary moves.</p>

<p>Naive is the nature of choice because it allows Psyduck to be as fast as possible while also not lowering either of its attacking stats. The EVs are fairly straightforward. Psyduck needs its Special Attack maximized to score many of the OHKOs and 2HKOs that it needs to be effective, and running maximum Speed on Psyduck allows it to tie with threats such as Aron after a Rock Polish and Choice Scarf Mankey. The remaining EVs give Psyduck an extra point in Attack that boosts the power of Cross Chop.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Obviously, Pokemon that benefit from the removal of weather starters work well alongside Psyduck. Gligar fears rain abusers and hail abusers alike, and it can switch in easily on Electric-type attacks aimed at Psyduck. Gligar is a magnet for Water- and Ice-type attacks as well, which Psyduck can switch in on easily. Dratini appreciates Psyduck's presence as well, since it likes to start attacking after a single Dragon Dance. Psyduck helps to remove any Chlorophyll and Swift Swim sweepers that trouble Dratini, such as Bellsprout or Mantyke. Generally, if a Pokemon hates any common weather-starters, they will appreciate Psyduck's help. Psyduck can also plug a hole on teams that lack a reliable revenge killer, as it has a respectable 24 Speed with its Choice Scarf and a variety of attacks to cover most types of Pokemon.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>Yawn can be used somewhat effectively on Psyduck, as it forces your opponent to make a decision between either switching out or KOing Psyduck at the expense of being put to sleep. Running Yawn leaves Psyduck vulnerable to Pokemon that it wants to beat consistently, however. Additionally, Encore can be used to surprise an opponent trying to set up on Psyduck, though it forces you to switch Psyduck out immediately. Psyduck can attempt to run a Life Orb set, but in general you're better off using a Pokemon with a higher attacking stat.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Psyduck may not look like it, but it can be a hard Pokemon to beat. Croagunk is the closest thing to a Psyduck counter with its immunity to Psyduck's STAB attack and resistance to Cross Chop and Hidden Power Grass. Croagunk can use a combination of Fake Out and either Vacuum Wave or Sucker Punch to whittle Psyduck's health down. Munchlax checks Psyduck pretty well, especially if Psyduck does not have Cross Chop. Even with Cross Chop, Munchlax is only 3HKOed, which allows it to switch into Psyduck without fear at least once. Chinchou and Mantyke counter Psyduck well depending on the Hidden Power that Psyduck knows; Chinchou will wall Hidden Power Electric variants all day long, while Mantyke shrugs aside attacks from Hidden Power Grass variants. Bronzor is bulky enough to switch into Psyduck, but it can't do much in return except for setting up screens.</p>

---

Psyduck has an absolutely massive movepool, but unfortunately its stats aren't really good enough to take full advantage of it. The only thing that makes it really stand out from other Water-types is its ability to negate weather effects.

As such, I considered adding a non-Choice set in, but it seems to me to be outclassed pretty heavily by Staryu. I also considered a set with Encore on it, but to be honest I don't have any idea what else to use it with (Surf, Ice Beam, Hidden Power?) and it seems destined for Other Options.

Any feedback is, of course, greatly appreciated.

 

[Heysup]

While this is an incredibly situational Pokemon, it's definitely an alternative to running Croagunk if you want to be able to deal with sun as well.

 

[eric the espeon]

As hey says it's very specific but can work fairly well in some situations, and it's Psyduck's best option. Comments will need some stuff about beating sun (switching into SolarBeam traps them, which is awesome). Hypnosis seems worth testing and could easily make a place for itself in comments or OC at least. Never met a scarfer in LC that can't use a sleep move well. Why Surf over Hydro Pump? Should explain this somewhere at least.

Other than that, looks good.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I remember this thing being a huge dick back when Tangela was destroying everyone, and I'll attest to its legitimacy.

 

[Heysup]

I just wanted to point out since I wasn't direct in my post that you would need to explain Psyduck's advantage as a weather counter as opposed to Croagunk. The obvious reasons include beating Sun in addition to Rain, as well as being much harder to prepare for on a weather team (eg. Chopple Kabuto/Omanyte lures and KOes Croagunk).

 

[Dubulous]

I really don't even consider Croagunk to perform the same role as Psyduck at all. Croagunk has to rely on weak priority moves to beat weather teams (granted, Vacuum Wave will KO both Kabuto and Omanyte) but otherwise it will be outsped. Psyduck outspeeds every weather abuser, has completely different STAB, and uses an entirely different item.

I guess I don't understand how the two can even be legitimately compared. They fill different roles.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Rain counter, yes. Weather counter? Not at all. Psyduck has the advantage of performing effectively against Sun, Hail, and Sandstorm just as well as it performs against Rain, while Croagunk is essentially a one-trick pony against Rain when it comes to acting as a "weather counter".

 

[Heysup]

I was referring to "fast weather", and Croagunk does do a decent job at checking Sun teams even though he takes a bit extra damage per turn simply because of Fake Out, Sucker Punch, and Grass-type resistance. However it is obvious Psyduck performs the "role" of beating weather better, but you still need to explain why you should use Psyduck when you can just throw a Croagunk on your team and reliably beat Rain while also having many more uses. This is where you'd talk about more reliability against Sun and other weather teams.

 

[Dubulous]

They still perform different roles. Croagunk doesn't counter "fast weather," it checks it by using priority moves. In fact, if you are using that Croagunk you are probably using it to counter speed-boosting sweepers and it just happens to check weather. Psyduck, however, hard counters weather while also having utility as a Choice Scarf user.

When you're building a team, countering weather doesn't really play a main role in the process. It is, however, something that you need to be aware of. Croagunk is put onto a team for completely different reasons than for its ability to "counter" weather. Psyduck can be a quick fix if your team has trouble with weather since you can just replace whatever Choice Scarf user you happen to be using.

My point is that the two Pokemon don't really compare legitimately. It's like comparing Munchlax to Chinchou because they both OHKO Dratini. Yeah it's a similarity, but the two Pokemon fill completely different roles on a team.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Croagunk is also losing an extra 2 HP per turn in the Sun, which REALLY makes it unreliable since it likes coming in and eating 2 hp from Life Orb recoil every time it decides to do its thing, plus 1 damage from Stealth Rock, plus whatever damage it might take if it fucks up and mispredicts and eats an Ice Beam, etc...

Psyduck is reliable in all weathers (remember, grass-type sun users have to use solarbeam!), and it does its job incredibly well.

 

[Heysup]

They still perform different roles. Croagunk doesn't counter "fast weather," it checks it by using priority moves. In fact, if you are using that Croagunk you are probably using it to counter speed-boosting sweepers and it just happens to check weather. Psyduck, however, hard counters weather while also having utility as a Choice Scarf user.

When you're building a team, countering weather doesn't really play a main role in the process. It is, however, something that you need to be aware of. Croagunk is put onto a team for completely different reasons than for its ability to "counter" weather. Psyduck can be a quick fix if your team has trouble with weather since you can just replace whatever Choice Scarf user you happen to be using.

I've personally put Croagunk on my team almost solely to deal with Rain (look at my double Ghost RMT). I didn't pick Psyduck because:

a) Sun isn't as important as Rain due to popularity and over all strength of the sweepers

b) It doesn't make a great check to a huge portion of the tier regardless of it's speed.

c) I didn't want to be put in bad situations with weak Scarf Ice Beams.

Scarf users generally can't be replaced by Psyduck at all. For example, Scarf Gastly and Psyduck have literally nothing in common except for the fact that they can both be walled by Munchlax. Scarf Gastly is far more threatening due to a much higher SpA stat. It would make sense for me to switch Psyduck in for Croagunk if I was having a lot of trouble with weather that isn't rain. Their roles are more similar, at least to me.

My point is that the two Pokemon don't really compare legitimately. It's like comparing Munchlax to Chinchou because they both OHKO Dratini. Yeah it's a similarity, but the two Pokemon fill completely different roles on a team.

I understand what you're saying but this is a pretty bad example. Munchlax and Chinchou both make great special attack takers, Chinchou is immune to Thunderbolt, resists Ice, Water, and Fire etc. while Munchlax takes jack from those special attacks as well.

Anyway that doesn't matter, what I said above still applies; Psyduck more easily replaces Gunk than Scarf Gastly.

Croagunk is also losing an extra 2 HP per turn in the Sun, which REALLY makes it unreliable since it likes coming in and eating 2 hp from Life Orb recoil every time it decides to do its thing, plus 1 damage from Stealth Rock, plus whatever damage it might take if it fucks up and mispredicts and eats an Ice Beam, etc...

Psyduck is reliable in all weathers (remember, grass-type sun users have to use solarbeam!), and it does its job incredibly well.

Well this is exactly what I want to be mentioned in the analysis.

 

[eric the espeon]

Could you put up some outlines for OC, counters and other sections?

 

[v]

Like the others have said, it's really situational. However, if you're looking for something to deal with just weather and nothing else, Psyduck's definitely your go to guy. I'd slash on Oran Berry as option for longevity+versatility>speed, because that way it can react adaptively to opposing threats while still severely hurting full-on weather teams. If you don't want to, then I'd at least request a mention in OC. Other than that...

 

[Dubulous]

I'd like to apologize to the LC C&C staff for not working on this analysis much in the past month. Eric, expect your changes to be made within the next week.

My goal for this analysis is to be done content-wise by 10 July.

 

[kd24]

 

[Kannon]

posting for imminent update with my sections!

 

[Dubulous]

This is done and ready for grammar checks.

 

[Fatecrashers]

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[OVERVIEW]

<p>At first glance, Psyduck looks vastly inferior to the majority of useable Water-type Pokemon. Psyduck, however, has two things working for it that sets it apart from them: access to Cross Chop and its ability, Cloud Nine. Cross Chop allows Psyduck to threaten Snover, who walls most other Water-types easily. Cloud Nine, however, is the main reason that makes Psyduck a viable option in Little Cup play. With Cloud Nine, Psyduck is able to stop weather-based teams cold. Furthermore, its respectable base 65 Special Attack and base 52 Attack stat allows Psyduck to retain general utility if the opposing team does not have a weather abuser.</p>

[SET]
name: Anti-Weather
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Cross Chop
move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Electric
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Naive
ability: Cloud Nine
evs: 24 Atk / 240 SAtk / 236 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Psyduck’s best chance of success in the Little Cup metagame is obtained by using a Choice Scarf. With a Choice Scarf and a Naïve nature, Psyduck reaches a very good 24 Speed, which outspeeds all non-Choice Scarf users in addition to threats such as Dratini and Bagon after a Dragon Dance. Psyduck’s deep movepool gives it superior type coverage on its attacks and makes it a good Choice Scarf user. Additionally, using a Choice Scarf gives Psyduck great utility outside of the unique niche of being an end-all counter to weather-based teams.</p>

[ADDITONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Hydro Pump is Psyduck’s most powerful STAB move, that it allows Psyduck to hit most threats as hard as possible. Surf can be used if you’re afraid of Hydro Pump’s shaky accuracy, but then Psyduck loses the ability to 2HKO Lileep. Ice Beam OHKOes Gligar, Cacnea, and Gible, all of whom lose the ability to evade it their Sand Veil evasion boost because of Cloud Nine. Cross Chop will 2HKO Snover through its Oran Berry while providing general utility against Aron and Munchlax late game. Hidden Power Grass is the first option on this set since it gives Psyduck the ability to OHKO Kabuto and Omanyte, as well as hitting Chinchou for good damage. Hidden Power Grass hits Chinchou hard as well. Hidden Power Electric OHKOes Mantyke 100% of the time with Stealth Rock up. Psychic is a decent option for Psyduck, as it allows it to OHKO Croagunk, a staple on Rain Dance teams, easily. Additionally, Hypnosis can be used as a fast, counter-all move. The shaky accuracy, however, makes it a second-rate option, especially with the already-shaky Hydro Pump and Cross Chop as necessary moves.</p>

<p>Naïve is the nature of choice because it allows Psyduck to be as fast as possible while also not lowering either of its attacking stats. The EVs are fairly straightforward. Psyduck needs its Special Attack maximized to score many of the OHKOs and 2HKOs that it needs to be effective, and running maximum Speed on Psyduck allows it to tie with threats such as Aron after a Rock Polish and Choice Scarf Mankey. The remaining EVs give Psyduck an extra point in Attack that boosts the power of Cross Chop.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Obviously, Pokemon that benefit from the removal of weather-inducing Pokemon weather-starters work well alongside Psyduck. Gligar fears rain-abusers and hail-abusers alike, and it can switch in easily on Electric-type attacks aimed at Psyduck. Gligar is a magnet for Water- and Ice-type attacks as well, which Psyduck can switch in on easily. Dratini appreciates Psyduck's presence as well also, since it likes to start attacking after a single Dragon Dance. Psyduck helps to remove any threats that could potentially have their Speed doubled by the sun or the rain and OHKO, such as Bellsprout or Mantyke, which would otherwise trouble Dratini. Generally, if a Pokemon hates any common weather-starters, they will appreciate Psyduck's help. Psyduck can also plug a hole on teams that lack a reliable revenge killer, as it has a respectable 24 Speed with its Choice Scarf and a variety of attacks to cover most types of Pokemon.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>Yawn can be used somewhat effectively on Psyduck, as it forces your opponent to make a decision between either switching out or KOing Psyduck at the expense of being put to sleep. Running Yawn leaves Psyduck vulnerable to Pokemon that it wants to beat consistently, however. Additionally, Encore can be used to surprise an opponent trying to set up on Psyduck, though it forces you to switch Psyduck out immediately. Psyduck can attempt to run a Life Orb set, but in general you're better off using a Pokemon with a higher attacking stat.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Psyduck may not look like it, but it can be a hard Pokemon to beat. Croagunk is the closest thing to a Psyduck counter, with its immunity to Psyduck's STAB attack and resistance to Cross Chop and Hidden Power Grass. Croagunk can use a combination of Fake Out and either Vacuum Wave or Sucker Punch to whittle Psyduck's health down. Munchlax checks Psyduck pretty well, especially if Psyduck does not have Cross Chop. Even with Cross Chop, Munchlax is only 3HKOed, which allows it to switch into Psyduck without fear at least once. Chinchou and Mantyke counter Psyduck well depending on the Hidden Power that Psyduck knows; Chinchou will wall Hidden Power Electric variants all day long, while Mantyke shrugs aside attacks from Hidden Power Grass variants. Bronzor is bulky enough to switch into Psyduck, but it can't do much in return except for setting up screens.</p>

Nicely done

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Psyduck's a good little Pokemon

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[OVERVIEW]

<p>At first glance, Psyduck looks vastly inferior to the majority of useable usable Water-type Pokemon. Psyduck, however, has two things working for it that sets it apart: access to Cross Chop and its ability, Cloud Nine. Cross Chop allows Psyduck to threaten Snover, who walls most other Water-types easily. Cloud Nine, however, is the main reason that Psyduck is a viable option in Little Cup play. With Cloud Nine, Psyduck is able to stop weather-based teams cold. Furthermore, its respectable base 65 Special Attack and base 52 Attack stat allows Psyduck to retain general utility if the opposing team does not have a weather abuser.</p>

[SET]
name: Anti-Weather
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Cross Chop
move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Electric
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Naive
ability: Cloud Nine
evs: 24 Atk / 240 SAtk / 236 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Psyduck's best chance of success in the Little Cup metagame is obtained by using a usually with a Choice Scarf set. With a Choice Scarf and a Naive nature, Psyduck reaches a very good 24 Speed, which outspeeds all non-Choice Scarf users in addition to threats such as Dratini and Bagon after a Dragon Dance. Psyduck's deep large movepool gives it superior type coverage and makes it a good Choice Scarf user. Additionally, Choice Scarf gives Psyduck great utility outside of the unique niche of being an end-all counter to weather-based teams.</p>

[ADDITONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Hydro Pump is Psyduck's most powerful STAB move,(comma) and that allows Psyduck to hit most threats as hard as possible. Surf can be used if you're afraid of Hydro Pump's shaky accuracy, but then Psyduck loses the ability to 2HKO Lileep. Ice Beam OHKOes Gligar, Cacnea, and Gible, all of whom lose their Sand Veil evasion boost because of Cloud Nine. Cross Chop will 2HKO Snover through its Oran Berry while providing general utility against Aron and Munchlax late game. Hidden Power Grass is the first option on this set in the last moveslot since it gives Psyduck the ability to OHKO Kabuto and Omanyte, as well as hitting Chinchou for good damage. On the other hand, Hidden Power Electric OHKOes Mantyke 100% of the time with Stealth Rock up. Psychic is a decent option for Psyduck, as it allows it to OHKO Croagunk, a staple on Rain Dance teams, easily. Additionally, Hypnosis can be used as a fast, counter-all move. The shaky accuracy, however, makes it a second-rate option, especially with the already shaky Hydro Pump and Cross Chop as necessary moves.</p>

<p>Naive is the nature of choice because it allows Psyduck to be as fast as possible while also not lowering either of its attacking stats (Explain why not Hasty?). The EVs are fairly straightforward. Psyduck needs its Special Attack maximized to score many of the OHKOs and 2HKOs that it needs to be effective, and running maximum Speed on Psyduck allows it to tie with threats such as Aron after a Rock Polish and Choice Scarf Mankey. The remaining EVs give Psyduck an extra point in Attack that boosts the power of Cross Chop.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Obviously, Pokemon that benefit from the removal of weather starters work well alongside Psyduck. Gligar fears rain abusers and hail abusers alike, and it can switch in easily on Electric-type attacks aimed at Psyduck. Gligar is a magnet for Water- and Ice-type attacks as well, which Psyduck can switch in on easily. Dratini appreciates Psyduck's presence as well, since it likes to start attacking after a single Dragon Dance. Psyduck helps to remove any threats that could potentially have their Speed doubled by the sun or the rain Chlorophyll or Swift Swim sweepers that would trouble Dratini, such as Bellsprout or Mantyke. Generally, if a Pokemon hates any common weather-starters, they will appreciate Psyduck's help. Psyduck can also plug a hole on teams that lack a reliable revenge killer, as it has a respectable 24 Speed with its Choice Scarf and a variety of attacks to cover most types of Pokemon.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>Yawn can be used somewhat effectively on Psyduck, as it forces your opponent to make a decision between either switching out or KOing Psyduck at the expense of being put to sleep. Running Yawn leaves Psyduck vulnerable to Pokemon that it wants to beat consistently, however. Additionally, Encore can be used to surprise an opponent trying to set up on Psyduck, though it forces you to switch Psyduck out immediately. Psyduck can attempt to run a Life Orb set, but in general you're better off using a Pokemon with a higher attacking stat.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Psyduck may not look like it, but it can be a hard Pokemon to beat. Croagunk is the closest thing to a Psyduck counter with its immunity to Psyduck's STAB attack and resistance to Cross Chop and Hidden Power Grass. Croagunk can use a combination of Fake Out and either Vacuum Wave or Sucker Punch to whittle Psyduck's health down. Munchlax checks Psyduck pretty well, especially if Psyduck does not have Cross Chop. Even with Cross Chop, Munchlax is only 3HKOed, which allows it to switch into Psyduck without fear at least once. Chinchou and Mantyke counter Psyduck well depending on the Hidden Power that Psyduck knows; Chinchou will wall Hidden Power Electric variants all day long, while Mantyke shrugs aside attacks from Hidden Power Grass variants. Bronzor is bulky enough to switch into Psyduck, but it can't do much in return except for setting up screens.</p>

 

[Dubulous]

This is done and ready to be uploaded.