I FEEL INFINITE
what are the best six pokemon in adv pu?
Well, the first post does have a VR that u could use to check and make your own opinion based in your style, but I would say IMO:what are the best six pokemon in adv pu?
Will the results of this suspect affect the BW PU banlist for the PU Classic or is that to be determined?approved by Akir and galbia
BW PU LINOONE SUSPECT TEST
Linoone has been a staple threat in BW PU for a long time now with its famed Belly Drum set and Choice Banded sets respectively, and since BW PU's representation in team tournaments such as PUPL, it has often been deemed as broken by the cohort of players that played the tier during the 6 week period that they were building for their teams. In particular, Linoone's Belly Drum set with Gluttony and Sitrus Berry (the main set which this post will reference), allowing for the activation of said berry at 50% HP has been considered as the unfair and broken element of Linoone, since at +6, Linoone has the capability of OHKO'ing every offensive threat in the meta thanks to STAB Extreme Speed and its +2 Priority, limiting revenge killing to essentially just Fake Out users such as Purugly, which are unreliable and not powerful enough to take Linoone out in one move. As well as this, Linoone has access to a plethora of coverage moves; notably Seed Bomb, Shadow Claw and Dig, each serving a purpose in terms of specific Pokemon they can take out. For example, Seed Bomb takes out popular Bulky Rock-types such as Graveler, Shadow Claw for Bulky Psychic Types such as Bronzor, Duosion and Beheeyem, which could otherwise be used to tank an Extreme Speed and retaliate back with Neutral STAB Psychic Attacks but also the rare Ghost-types such as Gastly which have the capability of revenge killing Linoone post set up. Dig is neat tech move used to hit the prominent Bulky Steel-types in the tier, the most Popular being Mawile, but also not limited to the likes of Klang, which has gained notoriety and usage in the light of Linoones prominence.
Linoone's Belly Drum set allows for very little counterplay in the current BW PU metagame, which has frustrated some key players who have played BW PU at a competitive level in the past. Very minimal support is required to get a Belly Drum under its belt, and once fully set up, can use its excellent +2 priority move and its coverage attacks to pick apart any range of teams, with offense often not being able to accommodate a good enough Linoone check, essentially limited to Gastly or weak priority attacks like Fake Out from Purugly as its only way of revenge killing. Balance struggles as well, with almost every Pokemon incapable of taking a +6 Extreme Speed, and with the cohort of Pokemon actually able to take a +6 Extreme Speed, get OHKO'd by Linoones coverage attacks, with the only seemingly viable exception being Machoke, which has its own shortcomings as well. In terms of disadvantages, it can be argued that Linoone isn't the bulkiest Pokemon ever and that it does struggle to set up in a hazard intensive metagame such as BW PU, it may struggle to get a Belly Drum off with only 63% usable HP (after Stealth Rock damage). The main disadvantage is that, should Linoone not sweep after its Belly Drum attempt, it will usually never be able to get another opportunity in, so if the player is capable of forcing it out as it sets up, it's usually a dead weight for the rest of the match.
HOW THE SUSPECT WILL WORK:
There will be a cohort of 10 users that will be able to vote in this suspect test. 7 of which have already been determined. These players have either been picked due to their influence on the metagame, past tournament experience/success or by being prominent in the BW PU community.
These players have all earned their privilege to vote in this suspect test from being prominent BW PU players with considerable tournament success in most cases. You can expect that, should you have incredible tournament success in future BW PU Tournaments, or in the BW PU slot in PUPL, that you can work your way onto this council. They will all provide their 2 cents on Linoone when I close the suspect test on Saturday, 13th May.
That leaves us with 3 users left who will have the opportunity to vote. 2 of which will be determined via a "rotating" council slot. For those of you unfamiliar with the rotating council, myself and Akir will determine 2 voters who have showed excellent knowledge and insight on the BW PU metagame via forum posts in this thread in particular. Any user who has made a conscious effort to determine why Linoone may be broken or balanced may be given the opportunity to vote on suspect test themselves. The posts don't have to be considerably long (as it leads to waffle) but if you show you prowess and insight in the BW PU metagame in this thread, you may be elected to represent the community via this rotating council. I know this is generally a more subjective way of picking voters, so we have decided to run a Suspect Tour as well to determine the last voter.
The final vote will be determined by the suspect tour will be held at 4 pm EDT (9 pm GMT +1) on Friday, May 12th in the PU Room. You will be able to sign up on the day since we are using the Room tour bot thing, so please allow for like 10 minutes or so to guarantee your spot in the suspect tour. The winner will be able to vote on the Linoone suspect test. The metagame that will be played is WITH Linoone allowed. (PS: If the tour is larger than expected, we may bump the amount of people who get votes to both Finalists, but this is unlikely.)
Happy posting :]
Just as a heads up, the results WILL affect the banlist for BW PU in PU classic. Should Linoone be banned on Saturday, it will be banned for Classic. Should Linoone be voted as not ban worthy, the banlist will stay as it currently is.Will the results of this suspect affect the BW PU banlist for the PU Classic or is that to be determined?
Well, for the sake of completeness:approved by Akir and galbia
We have decided to end the BW PU Linoone Suspect Test,
LINOONE IS BANNED FROM BW PU
6 out of the 7 specified council members have voted, with CrazyStevy making it onto the vote as well with his victory in the BW PU Suspect Tour. Rennyjesus also made it onto the rotating council as well, however, his vote will not be enough to change to result in the proceedings. If you want to send me your reasoning for Ban / No Ban for sake of completeness, feel free you've earned it.
I'm of the personal opinion that Linoone is way too hard to check in the BW PU metagame. What really tips it over the edge for me is the lack of Normal Resists which can OHKO back, which is literally Machoke, and that's it. I think Klinklang can win 1v1 but you need a good chunk of damage as Linoone sets up, which might not always be within your power, given the amazing support at its disposal in terms of Jumpluff, which synergises so perfectly. Due to team building requirements, usually, your normal check impedes with your flying check, one of which Jumpluff can put to sleep, chip at with U-Turn damage, or can begin a Linoone BD imminently vs anything it choses with Memento. Its so easy to get Linoone a belly drum, that essentially the argument of putting offensive pressure on it completely fails to exist, and along with its passable bulk, stab +2 prio cleaning move and great array of coverages, its wayy too good for BW PU and should be banned.
I have yet to hear a single argument against banning it, and after watching the PUPL2 replays it really is too strong for the tier. Many matches were decided by Linoone setting up, and this stays true for my own personal experience in the tier as well. The lack of strong answers to it that aren't beaten by random coverage is very low, and the Espeed buff to +2 priority means that it is almost impossible to revenge kill with what the tier has to offer.
The only solid way to beat Linoone is to not let Linoone set up, which isn't always in your power to do. So, I think the tier would be healthier without.
While CB linoone is a stable and powerful anti-offense pokemon, the wallbreaking capabilities and sweeping potential of the belly drum set pushes linoone over the edge. Almost no offensive pokemon in the tier are capable of standing up to a +6 extreme speed, and Linoone's passable bulk means it can set up on a plethora of PU threats such as zebstrika, rotom-f, jumpluff, and even CB linoone. this paired with the fact that it can OHKO almost all offensive and defensive threats at +6, makes linoone difficult to check. There is some counter play to linoone; defensive torterra can tank a +6 hit and KO linoone back. Scarf rampardos can take an espeed with no rocks up and revenge with superpower. Klang and lairon can take one hit (assuming dig-less) and hit linoone hard back. However, there aren't a lot of common options in teambuilding to reliably cover linoone. Linoone forces overly conservative building and playing because it's too difficult to check.
While I definitely made no secret of my dislike of Linoone last PUPL, I decided to test again a fair bit when I heard about this suspect. My opinion remains unchanged. The biggest problem is that almost everything that can theoretically check Linoone completely fails to do so in practice against a competent player when you add in something as simple as Spikes support. Soft answers like Lairon and defensive Machoke just don't cut it once Spikes hit the field. Barring a very small handful of reliable lategame checks held in reserve (sash MG mons, RestTalk Klang, Gastly), it pretty much always has the ability to just win in a way that no other sweeper in the tier can boast.
I can't see the tier doing anything but improving with Linoone gone. Basically, BAN this weasel.
Too strong for the tier, it can set up fairly easily with a bit of support and ohko almost anything except faster ghosts after a BD
The thing I feel the most about Linoone is how ridiculously little support it needs to function. You only need something to weaken the few Pokemon that can tank a +6 espeed (tort/machoke/mawile/etc) and then it will easily sweep teams from there. Not to mention most of the stuff that it can't OHKO, beside Machoke, doesn't OHKO back so it'll get 2 hits in sometimes too. It also sets up on half the tier easily if full, and can still set up on a good portion of it even weakened. And it's not like it's required to set up to be useful either, since it will always be able to function as a capable revenge killer thanks to Extremespeed, so there's never a game where it will be completely useless. With how little risk, and how much reward there is to using Linoone I don't think it's a healthy Pokemon to keep in the tier.
im going with straight ban
reason= i got swept plenty of times lol
NO BAN = 0
Obvious supermajority here.
Thanks to all of the Council that have voted, your guys responses have been great, and I would suggest reading them through if you don't neccesarily understand why Linoone has been banned. On a personal note, I will be removing Linoone from all the resources in the BW PU resource thread, feel free to post your post-linoone teams here in the Old Gens Thread, I as well as many others will be super interested to see what you guys can build now that one of the biggest strains on building has been removed from the tier!
Edit: Also updated the BW PU Resource Thread
Changes: Linoone removed from Threatlist, all sample teams have been removed that included Linoone, and Linoone from the Speed Tiers have also been removed.
Team looks cool. Magic coat lead solrock looks really neat actually. One thing I might consider altering is eq>ice punch on machoke. Tpunch hits all the relevant flying types and eq can let you hit muk super effectively into 50/50 ohko whereas you may have trouble with that without eq. Additionally, how is your matchup vs purugly? Fake Out Purugly is one of the biggest threats to TR and I'm concerned that not having a normal resist/immunity after Solrock explodes could spell disaster for the team.
No Tricks, Just Trick Room (Sinnoh Style)
Solrock @ Focus Sash
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Trick Room
- Magic Coat
Marowak @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stone Edge
Chimecho @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Healing Wish
Octillery @ Life Orb
EVs: 232 HP / 252 SpA / 24 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Ice Beam
- Energy Ball
- Fire Blast
Machoke @ Flame Orb
EVs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Def / 32 SpD
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
Xatu @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Heat Wave
- Shadow Ball
So this team plays sorta similiar to my old Gen 6 PU Trick Room RMT, but modified for the consensus of Gen 4. Solrock is the dedicated lead designed to set up Trick Room and Stealth Rock with Magic Coat here for Taunt leads like Sneasel. Octillery, Marowak, and Machoke make for the Trick Room abusers, Thunder Punch Machoke is nice for Poliwrath so you don't have to click CC and also helps with Pelipper a lot and Ice Punch for Grass-types. Chimecho provides Trick Room + Healing Wish support, I prefer Yawn over Hypnosis as Hypnosis's accuracy is too shaky for my liking and Yawn forces your opponent to either switch or leave their mon in and be put to sleep the following turn. Lastly, Scarf Xatu provides Speed and allows me to function outside of TR while also providing momentum with U-Turn plus it's faster than Scarf Mr. Mime albeit weaker. Hope you enjoy the team.
Thanks for the feedback. I actually forgot what I had Ice Punch on Machoke for, but EQ helps a lot more so definetly changing to that. It's also funny how you brought up Purugly because I tested this team against Akir and he brought lead Purugly with Shadow Claw which 2HKO'd Solrock. my best bet to dealing with Purugly was to make sure Trick Room was up or either revenge kill with scarf Xatu after it took enough Life Orb recoil (I also had to make sure rocks weren't up but even then Fake Out + Sucker Punch takes out Xatu as well). I did tinker a bit with the Solrock set and made it a bit bulkier, so the set is now:Team looks cool. Magic coat lead solrock looks really neat actually. One thing I might consider altering is eq>ice punch on machoke. Tpunch hits all the relevant flying types and eq can let you hit muk super effectively into 50/50 ohko whereas you may have trouble with that without eq. Additionally, how is your matchup vs purugly? Fake Out Purugly is one of the biggest threats to TR and I'm concerned that not having a normal resist/immunity after Solrock explodes could spell disaster for the team.
252+ Atk Guts Machoke Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 380-448 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Machoke Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 142-168 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- 53.4% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery