Metagame PU Old Gens + Discussion (Gen4 Revamp)

So I talked to akir briefly about my opinions on his post so he'll have to forgive me for repeating some of my points.

Response to Akir's Noms

Electabuzz A+ to S
I'm team Ebuzz to S for a variety of reasons. First reason being it only has one fairly passive check in the entire tier in Bellosom. Bell is super good and while it handles ebuzz nicely, the spdef set struggles to deal with ebuzz after a toxic/hazard damage/chip has been done by partner mons.

Outside of Bell, we don't have any reliable mons that aren't 2hko'd by ebuzz's coverage so that further leads to why it's so deserving of S. The mon has very few drawbacks to being put on a team and it has a good lead matchup vs everything but purugly, as lead metang often doesn't run eq because it needs priority Bullet punch for glalie. More importantly though, our lack of an electric immunity that isn't destroyed by coverage is really what puts Ebuzz a step above the rest of the mons in the tier. Usually the layout of a team employs a single grass type and if you're running victri/cacturne you take ~40+% from a tbolt and you die to coverage. The mon does so well vs every playstyle and I foresee it becoming the go to wallbreaker in the tier in the coming months.


Sneasel A to A-
I can agree to sneasel dropping. Poli is better than ever without Cuno in the tier and Sneasel suffers because of it. I think B+ is a little low as Sneasel is our premier pursuit trapper for missy and it has a great speed tier in a tier with a million base 105s. I think A- is fine for now until the tier settles a bit.

Wartortle C to C-
This mons a a completely momentum suck. I could see rest/talk sets being mildly viable for sub/tox rapidash and metang (which just took a hit with Articuno leaving) but outside of that it doesn't do anything vs our premier spike setters and rhydon. I think this should be a C- rank mon as it has a place but it's right next to beedrill and shedinja.

252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wartortle: 150-177 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Zangoose B+ to A

The goose is in fact loose. Mon is good but it suffers from 4 move syndrome. AoA and SD 3atk lack wallbreaking power and priority/ghost coverage respectively. That being said it's definitely on the come up and I'd say the only thing holding it back right now is the lack of splashabilty. In time I could see it being A+ but right now the meta hasn't developed enough to justify this thing alongside rhydon/muk/cact/missy.




Rapidash A- to A

Sub toxic justifies this thing to move up all by itself. This set wears down all common checks in the tier besides rest/talk poli and it can timer walls like gastrodon for all other members later. Rapidash can still function how it always has except this tech really pushed it to another level.

Noms of My Own




Victreebel S to A+

The mons not S. We have so many natural checks to this thing and I've thought that it should drop for a while. Metang, Muk, Golbat all defensively handle one or a variety of Victribell sets. Offensively we have Sneasel, Purugly, Sub/Tox Rapidash, Monferno that revenge SD Sucker punch sets and a whole arsenal of mons that outspeed and ohko standard AoA sets. The mon just isn't as potent as it once was and we have a lot to handle it that naturally fit onto a variety of BO/Offense/Balance builds. Additionally, the argument can be made that Victribell isn't on the level of influence that Poliwrath is. Offensively victribell does not provide S rank breaking power in the same way poli defensively provides S rank glue and the ability to check a huge portion of the tier in purugly/sneasel/rhydon/cacturne/rapidash



Mr. Mime A- to B+

Mime sits at a speed tier that doesn't make it nearly as effective as xatu which can break metang with LO sets and run uturn on scarf sets to preserve momentum. For these reasons alone I think Mime should drop but we can also see Kadabra in A which effectively invalids using mime even more. NP is the only set that I could justify keeping it in A- but that's not even getting more than 1 kill without being revenge whereas Sub LO kadabra has potential to 6-0 on one misprediction.


Raichu B+ to B

Raichu has a really unfortunate speed tier at base 100 this gen. So many 105s revenge and ebuzz is better than ever so there's very little reason to want to run a sweeper set that doesn't sweep due to speed when we have a mon that sweeps without setup in ebuzz.


Sableye A- to B+

Sableye doesn't have the bulk to be a reliable wall right now. It's too passive and Rapidash/Cacturne can immediately gain momentum back from a sableye switch in. I just don't see it on par with the rest of A- as those mons all have important staples in the metagame right now.
 
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Specs

No Label
is a Pre-Contributor
I don't think I've ever done a VR post for DPP PU but, I just felt like adding on to the initial Ebuzz nomination.

Electabuzz A+ to S

With cuno gone, I expected the meta to slow down. Teams were forced to offensively check it because it could just PP stall almost every defensive mon in the tier. But offense is still running wild, and Ebuzz loves this. Very few things in the tier can take on its Stab + coverage options (Tbolt, Psychic, Focus Blast, Hp grass, ect.) And everything that does take those moves well (Bello, Ampharos, Muk, ect.) absolutely hate taking hits from Ebuzz after Rocks, Spikes, or the combination of both. It can also easily forgo a coverage move for toxic, to wear down most of its checks. Which helps in the long run if they ever need to switch in again.

This thing is honestly a meta defining mon. Like GA said, theres almost no reason not to throw it on a team. It destroys the common team styles like Poliwrath, Victreebel, Missy, Golbat, ect. I dont have much else to say bcuz GA's post is great & I dont wanna repeat him too much.


Sneasel A to A- Agree

This is a tough one, on one hand the speed tier it has is amazing right now, outpacing the likes of Rapidash, Electabuzz, Purugly, Xatu, ect. The main problem I've always had with it is how frail it is, letting anything that can take a hit (which is a lot in the meta right now) tank a hit and straight KO it back. I've found that the meta has a slight power creep that Sneasel sadly just can't keep up with. SD is still a scary set, but it struggles to set it up. I'm sure we will see a meta where this thing shines, but for the time being I dont see it being A materiel.


Wartortle C to C- 100% Agree

I would argue that because of us not seeing it at all in high level play, & when we do it does nothing is a great indication of it needing to be a bit lower on the VR. Momentum is huge at the moment and your hazard remover needs to has some type of offensive pressure, Wartortle just doesnt have that. Any set other than rest talk is complete Poliwrath bait, a long with Victreebel just coming in for free on it (unless they carry ice beam but we wouldn't know bcuz its never seen.) Idk, i would love to be proven wrong. I'd love for more discussion on this because maybe I'm not seeing what others are.

Zangoose B+ to A-

I wouldn't say its A materiel yet but, I can't deny that this thing has been on a tear and pretty much dumps on any type of Balance or Bulky offense with the right set. It's splashable enough to be A- imo, but not A.


Rapidash A- to A Agree

I personally have yet to use the cool new sub toxic set, but man is it a bitch to play around. Stalling out common switch ins like Poliwrath, Rhydon, Gastrodon, ect. Rapidash is also very splashable atm, fitting great on offense and even some balances. Overall Rapidash's diversity and presence in the meta for sure makes it an A rank mon.


Victreebel S to A+ I have no idea

Vic is in a really weird spot. On one hand, the SD set makes it undoubtedly one of the best wallbreakers in the whole tier. On the other hand, it just doesn't feel like it does the job as well anymore. The meta has somewhat adapted to it, with offense doing a great job just straight up not giving it the chance to set up. I'm really not sure where I stand on this nom, my opinion has changed back and forth over the past couple days. I would love if more discussion were to be had about it! Since it would be a huge change to the VR.


Mr. Mime A- to B+ Agree

Not much to say really, Xatu does its job better in almost every way (Xatu is rlly underrated pls use it ppl.) Healing wish is a really cool tech Mime has, but unless you're running the scarf set which is really weak, Mime can struggle at times to even do that. I also agree that Kadabra is much better than Mime atm, with its great speed tier. The nasty plot set doesnt really justify keeping it at A- either.


Raichu B+ to B Agree

I really haven't seen Raichu at all outside of me testing it out a bit in friendly's, where the nasty plot set struggled to keep up against faster stronger teams. Electabuzz does a much much better job in almost every aspect. I would like to see it more, since the first time i had seen it in maybe a month was me using it, and my opponent was shocked that somebody was bringing it lol.


Sableye A- to B+ Agree

I don't have much to say on it since I haven't faced it in about 2 months, but like GA said it doesn't have the bulk to reliably wall things & just drains any teams momentum. B+ would be a fine place to keep it, since I think it has at least some potential in the meta, but A- really isn't the place for it anymore.

Anyways thanks for anyone reading, Post-Cuno meta has been a ton of fun and has made me enjoy the tier a lot more.
 
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Akir

A true villain!
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
PU Leader
So I am updating the Gen4 VR soon, I just wanted a few more ebuzz opinions and i needed to get the format right so uberskitty would stop bullying me. But I wanted to push this out:

Gen5 Revamp, Phase 1 Proposal
So the main problem facing Gen5 PU at the moment is accessibility and having an incredibly high skill floor requirement. I will go into more detail in a hide here if you are curious:

So if anything was a clue to the idea that "we are coming to this tier with the wrong idea" it's the fact that Omfuga went 14-1 in PUPL in that tier, with the one loss being due to heavy hax. He went undefeated during the year that we revived Gen5 too, and had genuine interest and innovation in the tier. Omfuga is good sure, but to go undefeated for so long? After a bit of work I came to the conclusion that Omfuga came at the tier in a completely different way, and his way was a lot closer to "the right way" than what we established.

Basically, after a lot of tinkering, I came to the conclusion that momentum is actually the lifeblood of the tier in totality. Obviously momentum is always important, but this tier has an incredibly intense focus on it. Take the first team in this post for example, where the wincon is just "have more hazards and momentum than your opponent" and I would consider it one of the best teams the tier has...and no, not just because I made it. It is, at the very least, closer to the ideal than a lot of other teams.

This focus on momentum comes from the tier's large inability to actually slow momentum: if you can create and hold momentum, you can dance on your opponent all day and there is little they can do if anything. This is because the tier has a ton more wallbreakers than walls. The tier just cannot keep all of these theats checked, so it is easier to simply create your own momentum and steamroll your opponent than try to stop their momentum. People flock to Bronzor because it promises to wall so much, even though the mon is a pretty massively exploitable momentum drain. Even worse are threats like Rotom-Frost, which have so few reliable checks that a good number of teams have to rely on things like Chinchou, who would be a miserable choice otherwise.

So ok, here's the answer to the "so what" question: If the tier has such a focus on momentum, it means that the tier is significantly harder to get into that other tiers. Since this tier has very little play out of PUPL, very few have given the tier enough focus to actually achieve an understanding. Most just get frustrated.

So the takeaway is this: the tier has so many strong threats that the tier cannot hope to check it all. As a result, people have to rely on momentum-heavy offense in order to win. These kind of teams are harder to build and play, so the cycle of people not learning the tier properly and quitting before they can continues.

As for the string of people using illegal mons: yeah the resources need a revamp but largely you guys just suck. Also I do like how offensive the tier is personally, but the skill floor needs to be lowered pretty badly imo



Originally this was much longer, but I decided to cut out a lot of the fat as it made this part a chore to read if you didn't care as much about metagame theory as I do. A bit self-indulgent after a while lol


The short version is this: Gen5 at the moment has too many breakers for most playstyles to actually achieve any level of healthy viability. So, I propose 2 ways we can mitigate this:

  1. Accept that the tier is in need of revamps and start banning what is needed by a slow process of elimination, starting with a ban on Rotom-Frost and Combusken. They are the outliers that have the most singular impact on the tier due to huge potential and few niche counters, so these 2 alone will improve the tier a lot.
  2. Instead, accept the tier as it is and focus on making the tier more approachable with better resources, more tournaments, and potentially even tutoring.
The best solution will more than likely be a combination, but the real focus is more on whether or not people would prefer to keep this old tier as it is or not. I know there are some that are opposed to moving a tier around after the gen is over.

I would love to hear more thoughts on this. Personally, I feel like banning Combusken and Frost will be a solid step in the right direction.
 
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Many

Ehehehehh
is a Tiering Contributor
So I am updating the Gen4 VR soon, I just wanted a few more ebuzz opinions and i needed to get the format right so uberskitty would stop bullying me. But I wanted to push this out:

Gen5 Revamp, Phase 1 Proposal
So the main problem facing Gen5 PU at the moment is accessibility and having an incredibly high skill floor requirement. I will go into more detail in a hide here if you are curious:

So if anything was a clue to the idea that "we are coming to this tier with the wrong idea" it's the fact that Omfuga went 14-1 in PUPL in that tier, with the one loss being due to heavy hax. He went undefeated during the year that we revived Gen5 too, and had genuine interest and innovation in the tier. Omfuga is good sure, but to go undefeated for so long? After a bit of work I came to the conclusion that Omfuga came at the tier in a completely different way, and his way was a lot closer to "the right way" than what we established.

Basically, after a lot of tinkering, I came to the conclusion that momentum is actually the lifeblood of the tier in totality. Obviously momentum is always important, but this tier has an incredibly intense focus on it. Take the first team in this post for example, where the wincon is just "have more hazards and momentum than your opponent" and I would consider it one of the best teams the tier has...and no, not just because I made it. It is, at the very least, closer to the ideal than a lot of other teams.

This focus on momentum comes from the tier's large inability to actually slow momentum: if you can create and hold momentum, you can dance on your opponent all day and there is little they can do if anything. This is because the tier has a ton more wallbreakers than walls. The tier just cannot keep all of these theats checked, so it is easier to simply create your own momentum and steamroll your opponent than try to stop their momentum. People flock to Bronzor because it promises to wall so much, even though the mon is a pretty massively exploitable momentum drain. Even worse are threats like Rotom-Frost, which have so few reliable checks that a good number of teams have to rely on things like Chinchou, who would be a miserable choice otherwise.

So ok, here's the answer to the "so what" question: If the tier has such a focus on momentum, it means that the tier is significantly harder to get into that other tiers. Since this tier has very little play out of PUPL, very few have given the tier enough focus to actually achieve an understanding. Most just get frustrated.

So the takeaway is this: the tier has so many strong threats that the tier cannot hope to check it all. As a result, people have to rely on momentum-heavy offense in order to win. These kind of teams are harder to build and play, so the cycle of people not learning the tier properly and quitting before they can continues.

As for the string of people using illegal mons: yeah the resources need a revamp but largely you guys just suck. Also I do like how offensive the tier is personally, but the skill floor needs to be lowered pretty badly imo



Originally this was much longer, but I decided to cut out a lot of the fat as it made this part a chore to read if you didn't care as much about metagame theory as I do. A bit self-indulgent after a while lol


The short version is this: Gen5 at the moment has too many breakers for most playstyles to actually achieve any level of healthy viability. So, I propose 2 ways we can mitigate this:

  1. Accept that the tier is in need of revamps and start banning what is needed by a slow process of elimination, starting with a ban on Rotom-Frost and Combusken. They are the outliers that have the most singular impact on the tier due to huge potential and few niche counters, so these 2 alone will improve the tier a lot.
  2. Instead, accept the tier as it is and focus on making the tier more approachable with better resources, more tournaments, and potentially even tutoring.
The best solution will more than likely be a combination, but the real focus is more on whether or not people would prefer to keep this old tier as it is or not. I know there are some that are opposed to moving a tier around after the gen is over.

I would love to hear more thoughts on this. Personally, I feel like banning Combusken and Frost will be a solid step in the right direction.
Hi Akir

I already spoke a little about this in Discord but I wanted to get my thoughts here. First, I disagree with the overall premise that BW PU is an inaccessible or overly difficult metagame. It's just a very offensive meta, like most of the BW tiers, based around stacking hazards and sweeping. Basically anyone can get into it if they know how to play offense at a basic level. Overanalyzing Omfuga's win rate is a bit silly because in a lot of those games he just outplayed his opponents or they just had poor teams. There really isn't any special factor to it, and momentum has always been a huge factor in offensive metas so I don't think there's really anything new there either.

We're never going to change the fundamental nature of the tier from being heavy offense and there's no point in trying. That's just the way this tier (and most BW metas) are- based around hazard stacking and overwhelming the opposition. It's true, defensive playstyles are less viable but that doesn't necessarily make this a poor metagame.

But yes, I do agree that this tier needs a bit of a revamp. Combusken and Rotom-Frost exert a lot of pressure both on teambuilding and on the battlefield. They are kind of similar to the Pyroar + Kingler threat because it's pretty hard to build a team that can keep up against both of them and their amazing dual STAB combination, and they do threaten each others' checks quite a bit if used on the same team (Grumpig for example).

I think Combusken is the more pressing of the two issues because it is more flat-out broken once on the field. Combusken doesn't possess that much immediate power, but because of Speed Boost, it becomes an insane threat in the late-game. Because of the easy nature of hazard stacking in BW, it is very easy to chip defensive pokemon down into the range where Combusken can click Protect and just clean up a broken team. It doesn't help either that Combusken has multiple viable sets that share different checks; SD Eviolite for example, can nearly always find at least one opportunity for setup and pokemon like Chinchou or SpD Beheeyem are no longer solid checks. A Combusken suspect vote would be a fantastic place to start.

Rotom-Frost is obviously also a terrifying pokemon due to the sheer lack of switch-ins to its coverage and its combination of speed and power. One thing to note, though, is that Stealth Rocks should be considered almost omnipresent in BW due to the non-existent removal, and this certainly doesn't help Rotom-F if it wants to clean entire teams switching in and out (although yes, its immunity to Toxic Spikes is something to be noted). Being locked into one move if Choice Scarf doesn't help either, and non-choiced sets have a manageable amount of revenge-killers. Even with all that, it is still easily one of the most offensively powerful pokemon in battle and exerts an enormous amount of pressure on building teams (similar to ORAS in that sense). But I think that its possible if the more clearly broken Combusken is removed first, the amount of pressure Rotom-F exerts on teambuilding might be made manageable, as well as for other pokemon such as Vigoroth. I would caution on putting both on the chopping block at the same time; things aren't nearly that drastic.
 

Akir

A true villain!
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
PU Leader
hi!

I already spoke a little about this in Discord but I wanted to get my thoughts here. First, I disagree with the overall premise that BW PU is an inaccessible or overly difficult metagame. It's just a very offensive meta, like most of the BW tiers, based around stacking hazards and sweeping. Basically anyone can get into it if they know how to play offense at a basic level. Overanalyzing Omfuga's win rate is a bit silly because in a lot of those games he just outplayed his opponents or they just had poor teams. There really isn't any special factor to it, and momentum has always been a huge factor in offensive metas so I don't think there's really anything new there either.
Well, i never said overly-difficult. It is the most difficult PU gen to get into though, thats for sure. and the whole Omfuga thing was less of "omg omfuga, THE GOD, does it this way so we all should!" and more of "this guy with very different ideas and very different teams is overwhelmingly successful, maybe he is on to something..."

As I said in the post, of course momentum is important. It is just that in this tier, it's almost the singular deciding factor in winning games. You get rewarded more for it than in other PU gens, thats it.

We're never going to change the fundamental nature of the tier from being heavy offense and there's no point in trying. That's just the way this tier (and most BW metas) are- based around hazard stacking and overwhelming the opposition. It's true, defensive playstyles are less viable but that doesn't necessarily make this a poor metagame.
This is the main reason I'm actually responding to this post because I must have said something wrong because i have no idea where you got this. I have no interest in changing the entire structure of the metagame, only to cut off the really heavy outliers so there's less teambuilding stress so building something other than momentum-heavy offense is viable. Torterra is cool and all but you need more than that to keep balance teams around. Honestly maybe I should have kept my full essay if people seriously got this vibe from me.

But yes, I do agree that this tier needs a bit of a revamp. Combusken and Rotom-Frost exert a lot of pressure both on teambuilding and on the battlefield. They are kind of similar to the Pyroar + Kingler threat because it's pretty hard to build a team that can keep up against both of them and their amazing dual STAB combination, and they do threaten each others' checks quite a bit if used on the same team (Grumpig for example).
Sounds like we agree! Cool!

The main reason I want to do both though is because there is a notably lack of a consensus on what to cut out first. Both are outliers that have a ton of potential to completely decimate teams if you don't have very specific counters to them, and both sides have perfectly reasonable arguments for getting rid of both. So, I would rather get rid of both of the primary outliers and see where the tier goes and work from there.
 
So I am updating the Gen4 VR soon, I just wanted a few more ebuzz opinions and i needed to get the format right so uberskitty would stop bullying me. But I wanted to push this out:

Gen5 Revamp, Phase 1 Proposal
So the main problem facing Gen5 PU at the moment is accessibility and having an incredibly high skill floor requirement. I will go into more detail in a hide here if you are curious:

So if anything was a clue to the idea that "we are coming to this tier with the wrong idea" it's the fact that Omfuga went 14-1 in PUPL in that tier, with the one loss being due to heavy hax. He went undefeated during the year that we revived Gen5 too, and had genuine interest and innovation in the tier. Omfuga is good sure, but to go undefeated for so long? After a bit of work I came to the conclusion that Omfuga came at the tier in a completely different way, and his way was a lot closer to "the right way" than what we established.

Basically, after a lot of tinkering, I came to the conclusion that momentum is actually the lifeblood of the tier in totality. Obviously momentum is always important, but this tier has an incredibly intense focus on it. Take the first team in this post for example, where the wincon is just "have more hazards and momentum than your opponent" and I would consider it one of the best teams the tier has...and no, not just because I made it. It is, at the very least, closer to the ideal than a lot of other teams.

This focus on momentum comes from the tier's large inability to actually slow momentum: if you can create and hold momentum, you can dance on your opponent all day and there is little they can do if anything. This is because the tier has a ton more wallbreakers than walls. The tier just cannot keep all of these theats checked, so it is easier to simply create your own momentum and steamroll your opponent than try to stop their momentum. People flock to Bronzor because it promises to wall so much, even though the mon is a pretty massively exploitable momentum drain. Even worse are threats like Rotom-Frost, which have so few reliable checks that a good number of teams have to rely on things like Chinchou, who would be a miserable choice otherwise.

So ok, here's the answer to the "so what" question: If the tier has such a focus on momentum, it means that the tier is significantly harder to get into that other tiers. Since this tier has very little play out of PUPL, very few have given the tier enough focus to actually achieve an understanding. Most just get frustrated.

So the takeaway is this: the tier has so many strong threats that the tier cannot hope to check it all. As a result, people have to rely on momentum-heavy offense in order to win. These kind of teams are harder to build and play, so the cycle of people not learning the tier properly and quitting before they can continues.

As for the string of people using illegal mons: yeah the resources need a revamp but largely you guys just suck. Also I do like how offensive the tier is personally, but the skill floor needs to be lowered pretty badly imo



Originally this was much longer, but I decided to cut out a lot of the fat as it made this part a chore to read if you didn't care as much about metagame theory as I do. A bit self-indulgent after a while lol


The short version is this: Gen5 at the moment has too many breakers for most playstyles to actually achieve any level of healthy viability. So, I propose 2 ways we can mitigate this:

  1. Accept that the tier is in need of revamps and start banning what is needed by a slow process of elimination, starting with a ban on Rotom-Frost and Combusken. They are the outliers that have the most singular impact on the tier due to huge potential and few niche counters, so these 2 alone will improve the tier a lot.
  2. Instead, accept the tier as it is and focus on making the tier more approachable with better resources, more tournaments, and potentially even tutoring.
The best solution will more than likely be a combination, but the real focus is more on whether or not people would prefer to keep this old tier as it is or not. I know there are some that are opposed to moving a tier around after the gen is over.

I would love to hear more thoughts on this. Personally, I feel like banning Combusken and Frost will be a solid step in the right direction.
In gen 5 I think the biggest problem is combusken (not the skill gap, maybe the accessibility to the tier cause not many people know about our old gens). As someone who played gen 5 quite a bit outside of PUPL, combusken is by far the most difficult thing to consider when teambuilding. Speed boost makes it such a huge threat because even if your opp switches on a failed protect, you get another one for free and now you're the fastest thing in the tier while your opponent still doesn't even know your set. SD/LO Special decimate teams if you run electric coverage cause we essentially have nothing that can switch into it except Lampent (which isn't a good mon anyway).

Onto the other mon at hand, Rotom-Frost is great in the tier. It's a good mon but I don't see a reason for it to be banned right now. We have chinchou, monferno, muk, throh, and grumpig just to name a few very relevant mons that keep it in check. I'd suggest that we ban combusken and feel the tier out similar to how we did with Kingler/Pyroar. I don't feel as though this is a Kingler/Pyroar situation though. Combusken is a much scarier threat than Rotom-F and I think there are very few people who'd argue that it's healthy for the tier whereas Rotom-F offers a good offensive presence/speed tier to remain a top threat but not one that is overly centralizing to the metagame or one without checks.

Ban Combusken/Keep Rotom-Frost, feel out the tier after

Just a replay from PUPL this year. Essentially I have spdef muk/def throh for both combusken sets and even then I end up not being able to beat it due to losing momentum every time I switch muk in.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5nu-781655017
 
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DPP
This post mainly has to deal with metagame trends as well as VR nominations I'd like to propose. Post Articuno meta is as healthy and as fresh as ever.

Trends
Offensive pressure is at an all time high right now. Mons such as Sub Tox Rapidash and AoA/3atk Tox Electabuzz are ruling the meta due to their speed tier, wallbreaking abilities, and sufficient bulk to take a hit, something that has become a standard in DPP.

1538622770995.png

Poliwrath is no longer restricted into running encore for Articuno and therefore can afford to run really spicy tech like Hp Electric for Peli or semi-standard toxic for Bell/Gastro. Due to a large cacturne rise to prominence, I think Poliwrath can warrant running 216 or more speed to outspeed + speed nature cacturne. Spikes and momentum swings are too dangerous to risk right now and slow poliwrath can't reliably beat both timid cacturne and spdef sets.
1538622791207.png

Band Sneasel has been something I've been using quite a lot and it's really good at pursuiting misdreavus for Purugly, Poli, and Muk without the need for 50/50s. The mon definitely prefers band to LO because of its longevity and due to switching out anyway after it comes in to revenge something anyway. Band does 58.6 - 69% with punishment to rapidash over 50.9 - 60.1% with LO so you gain 8-9% to boot.
1538622881358.png

After much consideration, I firmly believe that Metang is better used with berries than with leftovers on many teams. Purugly is easy enough to check with poli/misdreavus on most teams so leftovers aren't a huge deal for recovery and metang gains so much from being able to sponge a super effective hit. Because of this, Shuca and specifically Occa Metang are quite good techs that can single-handedly swing a game in your favor. Most opps will send in a rapidash without thinking to remove metang and being able to stay in and earthquake confidently to remove it takes away a good bit of speed control all in one turn. Berry Metang is definitely something that will become meta at a certain point. It's just a matter of spreading the word.
1538623003357.png

Sets like Spdef cacturne and + speed nature cacturne are all the fad right now and with good reason. Spikes are a huge part of the metagame and speed creep to remove cacturne has pushed it into running more bulk to more speed to get them up. Both of these sets should be expected at this point and prepped for with Rapidash, fast Poli, Murkrow, or Victribell.

VR Nominations

1538623021518.png
Lickilicky A+ to A

I've given this thing a lot of chances and it just isn't a staple to the meta in the same ways that other mons in A+ are. Band is good but it's slow and heavily reliant on predictions. Our metagame is only getting faster and I'd much rather use Zangoose or Purugly as my offensive normal. Wish Licki is very playstyle restricted. You're only seeing this on semi-stall/stall and those playstyles are near non-existent in DPP right now. With how dominant Ebuzz and spikes are, I can't find a reason to justify keeping it A+ as a wish setter either.

1538623039869.png
Relicanth B+ to B

Poliwrath is better than it has ever been in DPP. It's by far the best mon in this metagame and its win rate in PUPL supports that. This means that relicanth is rarely ever sweeping and often times it requires more support than what it can give. Right now, Rhydon and Metang are much better rockers because they can actually take chunks out of Poliwrath, without being dead weight. Relicanth just can't keep up and if we add the recent Ebuzz/Cacturne rise to the list we see trends in an unfavorable direction for this mon.

1538623054668.png
Murkrow B+ to A-

I've tested this mon on and off and recently it's been so on. As a mixed wallbreaker, murkrow can break every relevant thing in our metagame outside of probopass. Cacturne's usage rise and our generalized lack of reliable flying resists allows this mon to take a life every time its in. I've always felt like this mon was slept on and I think not having to run a guaranteed steel of some sort on every team (as in Art meta) has done it a world of good.
 
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Akir

A true villain!
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
PU Leader
Gen5 Revamp Phase 1 Decision
So after seeing all of the debate that happened both here and on discord, I have decided to move forward with banning both. Rotom-Frost and Combusken are banned from Gen5 PU.

Why both? The community is split in a pretty even 50/50 over which one deserves to be banned more. Both sides provide plenty of good arguments for both, such as Rotom-Frost having no real bad matchups and Combusken sweeping cleanly in every game against offense. Conversely, the arguments to keep the mons were notably weaker. Because of the heavy community split with both mons arguably having strong reason to be banned, I see no reason not to simply ban both and then retest them one at a time at a later date.

Hopefully this is a strong step in the right direction for getting the generation back into shape!
 

Akir

A true villain!
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
PU Leader
Gen4 PU VR Update

Electabuzz A+ to S
Victreebel S to A+
Lickilicky A+ to A
Rapidash A- to A
Zangoose B+ to A-
Murkrow B+ to A-
Sneasel A to A-
Gabite A- to B+
Ampharos C+ to B
Relicanth B+ to B

Wow finally. Still a bit small but that's ok.

  • Electabuzz 2HKOs the metagame, basically. Now that the tier is leaning more offensive, this fact is a lot harder to counter. Because of the fact that Electabuzz is never deadweight and can very easily throw its weight around even in "bad" matchups, it is now S.
  • Victreebel is still extremely strong as a threat, but ironically the Cuno meta popularized a lot of checks to Victreebel and now they are everywhere. Sun is still good btw!
  • Lickilicky is an absolute staple on really bulky teams, but those are falling out of favor and so is Lickilicky. Choice Band is still good, but the fact that the #1 special attacker at the moment is Ebuzz (who 2HKOs) is a pretty big blow to viability. Still a solid mon but just not too suited for the current meta.
  • Rapidash is such a consistently good mon in Gen4 PU in both metagames. The innovation of SubToxic makes it even better, so now there is basically no free switchin for Rapidash ever. Good speed and self-healing are still a plus, and the fact that both sides of the attacking spectrum means that Rapidash is just very difficult to stop while being very consistent.
  • Zangoose is proving to be a strong threat in the tier, but is still held back by a lot of its old trappings, like awkward speed and 4mss. A- feels solid.
  • Honestly I should have bumped Murkrow up to A- last metagame, but to see if just get better with time is pretty surprising. Still dies way too fast to get any higher in the VR though.
  • I compromised on Sneasel. I still think it is B+ material but I'm apparently outgunned. No way it is anything more than A- though.
  • Gabite proved 2 things in PUPL. 1: It has no real switchins. 2: Even so, Gabite still struggles to do much. Iffy bulk and a bad speed for an offensive metagame is holding it back.
  • Ampharos became pretty good in Cuno meta and has since retained its stature of being a good mon. Solid B mon, as it does not belong on most teams, but with the popularization of Ebuzz it can find itself on more and more balance teams.
  • Relicanth is basically a discount Poliwrath as a defensive mon. Offensively, it is a discount Rhydon. It falls somewhere in the middle, but the physical STAB choice leaves a lot to be desired. The only Water Type Poliwrath actually reliably checks, go figure.
Very brief, but all of these changes have been mulled over plenty.
 

Akir

A true villain!
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
PU Leader
After some play leading up to the Mini-Classic week for Gen3, Machoke and Seviper both have been deemed initially too powerful for the tier and have been quickbanned.

With a Guts boost, Machoke has the ability to 2HKO just about every single wall in the tier with a Choice Band. Bulk up is also a great alternative, but the threat of a Guts boost makes dealing with Machoke particularly difficult. Normally threats like this would be burned or simply revenge killed in the tier, but Machoke loves to be burned with Guts and has plenty of bulk to take several hits and hit much harder back. The closest things to counters that the tier has are Duskull and Shuckle, who can lose depending on what set Machoke is running. Overall, Machoke is the best wallbreaker in the tier by a wide margin with no true counters.

Seviper has seen considerable use on Speedpass teams thanks to Seviper's excellent mixed offensive stats and even better movepool. Seviper's near-perfect coverage makes Seviper a menace to deal with in the mid- and lategame. Seviper's only true flaw is the lackluster Speed, but its coverage and power makes it an excellent candidate for passing Speed boosts to. There has been a lot of discussion over what part of Speedpass is or could be broken, and ultimately the decision was made that Seviper's incredible fit into the archetype was the breaking point.
 
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Many

Ehehehehh
is a Tiering Contributor
PU Classic Playoffs is coming up soon, so I would like to make a formal call to BAN Vigoroth from BW PU because it is dumb and broken.

Screen Shot 2018-12-17 at 10.23.09 AM.png

Vigoroth @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 200 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Substitute / Taunt
- Bulk Up
- Slack Off
- Return

Here is the Vigoroth set. Vigoroth is an extremely bulky pokemon with Eviolite and it has very few counters in the current metagame. Vigoroth can easily find setup opportunities vs. any team and with Substitute it can make most defensive pokemon a liability.

Some people have no idea how bulky this thing actually is after a Bulk Up so I will drop some calcs to show:
252 SpA Simipour Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Eviolite Vigoroth: 115-136 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 86.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 162-192 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Brave Bird vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 141-166 (38.7 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
yes that is Choice Band Brave Bird
252 SpA Life Orb Simisage Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Eviolite Vigoroth: 200-237 (54.9 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Eviolite Vigoroth: 105-125 (28.8 - 34.3%) -- 2.4% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Eviolite Vigoroth: 69-82 (18.9 - 22.5%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Gigalith Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 75-93 (20.6 - 25.5%) -- approx. 0% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Graveler Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 78-93 (21.4 - 25.5%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 195-230 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What changed for Vigoroth to make it broken? Well, in my opinion, it was always broken but there is no doubt that it has gotten even worse. Combusken was one of the most popular pokemon in the tier and one of the few who could threaten Vigoroth on the Special side with its powerful Focus Blasts. Rotom-Frost, while not strictly a Vigoroth check, could annoy it with the threat of Trick. The loss of both of these pokemon gives Vigoroth additional chance to wreak havoc.

As you can see now, there are very limited ways to beat Vigoroth with straight up attacks once it gets a Bulk Up. You either have to have a heavy duty Fighting-type that you keep at full health (Machoke, Throh), one of the very few Ghost-types in the tier (Frillish is the only one that can beat it), or hit multiple Focus Blasts off a powerful offensive pokemon. Basically you are forced to maintain offensive pressure at all moments which really makes teambuilding and gameplay less fun. Of course, strong attacks is not the only way of preventing a Vigoroth sweep. There are moves like Taunt and Encore and Trick which many teams have, and Vigoroth is going to have a hard time sweeping any team with a Prankster Volbeat. Several Choiced attackers commonly run Trick, although it is impossible to Trick when Vigoroth behind a Substitute. Taunt and Encore work but they usually just delay Vigoroth from destroying an entire team rather than prevent it from doing damage altogether. This alone is not enough to prevent Vigoroth from being broken and I hate to force myself to insert these moves when teambuilding at risk of losing an entire team.

However, it is so easy for Vigoroth to get over these relatively minor hurdles with just a little bit of team support. Vigoroth is a heavyweight in a tier full of lightweights that are trying their best, but it's like trying to bandage a massive wound. The costs for stopping Vigoroth is always much higher on the teambuilder than for supporting Vigoroth. Toxic Spikes or Spikes are a problem? Just use Natu, which also easily checks Fighting-types and bounces back Taunt and Encore. Vileplume also counters fighting-types and absorbs Toxic Spikes. Ghost-types? Well, the majority of the tier shits all over Frillish, and if you are really that concerned just use a Pursuit user. Trick is a problem? Well you have an entire team full of pokemon and at least one should be able to easily function with a Choice Scarf. Maybe just use Sticky Hold Muk. Concerned about powerful special attackers with Focus Blast? There are so many special tanks and revenge killers to choose from. Why not use Choice Scarf Mr. Mime, which can also Healing Wish you back to full in case you get status'ed accidentally?

Anyway, battling Vigoroth is always an uphill battle because it's so easy to support and so much work to keep it in check. I did expect more Vigoroth sweeps in the tournament, but I noticed many people playing overly cautiously with Vigoroth because they had no idea of its sheer bulk or how to properly support it in teambuilding. I think if more people knew the sheer potential of this thing we would undoubtedly see more Vigoroth sweeps and teams built entirely around supporting or counterteaming Vigoroth. Let's ban the sloth.

End of post.
 

Specs

No Label
is a Pre-Contributor
Hey, been a little bit since I've made a post on here. Gonna give some of my noms for the DPP PU VR (Akir meta)

Noms up:
Victreebel A+ to S
The more offensive this meta gets, the better it has been for Vic. Its defensive checks have fallen off a bit with how prevalent Ebuzz is (Golbat mainly.) Spikes being as popular as ever is great for it, as it needs minimal chip to KO almost everything in the meta. I've found it extremely splashable on just about any offense, it gives teams a Breaker, Priority, Poli answer, cleaner, and more. The more I play this meta, the more I think it should move back up to S. Would love to hear peoples thoughts on this.

Xatu A- to A
Xatu has been seeing more and more usage on offense and bulky offense. It's defensive typing + move pool is insane, allowing it to have some great set diversity. Choice Scarf, Sub CM, LO CM, I even saw someone running Choice Specs with some good success. Choice scarf is the one I'm most familiar with. It gives teams some great speed control and momentum all in one slot. The calm mind sets allow it to blow past through some of its defensive checks like Metang and Gastrodon, two popular mons on balance at the moment. So yeah cool breaker and momentum gainer all in one. If you need either one of those, Xatu is a great choice.

Ampharos B to B+
I've been waiting to make this nom for a bit, just to see if Electabuzz meta was just a phase. Well, its not. I actually think this is a much better Electabuzz check overall than Bellossom, since it can actually dish out some crazy damage back on your opponents switch. The Special Tank set is actually a great check to Poliwrath as well. Some other things you blanket check are Cacturne, Misdreavus, Kadabra, Xatu, and the list goes on. I think the meta is a great place for it.

Noms down:

Golduck A to A-

While I do think Golduck is fine in the meta, It's not A worthy. The sheer number of Electabuzz, Muk, Spdef Cacturne, and Purugly has really made it a tough place to run Golduck. It's hard to justify running over Poliwrath as your water. And sure you could run Water spam but then you're just double Electabuzz weak, which is an awful thing to be. As the meta gets more offensive it's becoming clear how important it is to have immediate power over having power after set up. Golduck needs a boost up to have breaking power, which is getting harder and harder to do. It's hard to explain it all because frankly I almost never see Golduck being used but, from my experiences the meta just isn't good for it.

Raichu B+ to B
I haven't seen a single one of these in probably 3 months. It's really not even worth considering over Electabuzz. Nasty Plot is cool but you almost never get a chance to set up and actually break. Raichu can 1 for 1 a lot of the meta but, why settle for that when you can have more immediate power, a better speed tier, and better coverage with Electabuzz? Maybe I'm being a bit too harsh on it, but I don't see a reason to be running this at the moment over Electabuzz.

Hope to see some conversation about this! I think the meta has changed a bit since the last VR update so maybe we can get some more ppl to share their thoughts on it.
 

UberSkitty

cuz I got banned from OU
is a Contributor to Smogon
Well this thread is dead, so here's a DPP nom:
1548376011873.png
(And yes, that's a foot)
Raticate: UR -> B / B-
Raticate @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Crunch
- Sucker Punch / Quick Attack
- U-turn

The first note is that Zangoose doesn't completely outclass it this gen, since Toxic Boost isn't a thing. It still does give Raticate competition if running Swords Dance, which is why I decided to go U-turn instead. Otherwise, Raticate can put in work as a wallbreaker or revenge killer. It's also pretty hard to wall, and even against mons like Rhydon it can U-turn against. It's just a decent choice in this offensive meta. Next, while this may be pretty specific, it has a notably great matchup against a top tier threat in Misdreavus. It walls the defensive set, outspeeds and OHKOes Nasty Plot, and Sucker Punches Choice Scarf. Quick Attack can be instead run to hit stuff like Sneasel and Poliwrath though. But the main focus is its powerful Guts STAB Facade. It is able to OHKO Muk, Poliwrath, and Victreebel with little to no chip damage, notably in a meta where getting worn down is pretty easy. This is especially great with its high Speed, albeit sadly has only average attack. But still, I'd say he's solid B/B- material.

Here's a replay with Raticate putting in some work:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4nu-853466739
 

Akir

A true villain!
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
PU Leader
Hello, I am here for a quick Gen5 VR nom post. To be honest, I would say that 30% of the VR needs to be redone. So, to help make that happen, I have a couple noms to better illustrate where I think the VR should go.

160284

Natu C -> A
Natu @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Toxic
- Night Shade
- U-turn


If you have talked to me recently about BW PU, you are probably aware that I have a very high opinion of Natu. I genuinely think that it is the best hazard control in the entire tier, beating most of the rockers (most notably completely walling Torterra) and spikers. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the ability for a rocker to beat Natu is a niche all on its own. In terms of what Natu can do for a team, it has many strong assets as well. A slow U-Turn in this tier is absolute gold, and a Toxic to punish switches is always handy. The downside most noteworthy for Natu however is its passive nature. Night Shade is good and so is Toxic, but when faced with a true threat like Vigoroth or Throh, Natu's best option is to just U-Turn.

160289

Abra Unranked -> B+
Abra @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Thunder Wave
- Encore


A lot of people like to discount Abra cuz the defenses are laughable and it's Abra and all that, but honestly...so what? Magic Guard means that Abra will always survive 1 hit no matter what with a Focus Sash, and with a SpAtk stat of 105 and a Speed of 90 Abra is actually very effective as a blanket check for the tier. The heavy use of hazards is a moot point as well, so a final Encore or Thunder Wave to cripple a big threat on your opponent's side is amazing. Point is that Abra might be lol but it has a higher SpAtk stat than most attackers in the tier, good speed, ignores hazards, and will 1v1 anything. B+ is most fitting regardless cuz Abra really has no place on anything other than hard HO.

160291

Bronzor A+ -> A-
Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Def / 172 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Psywave
- Toxic
- Hypnosis / Rest

Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 144 Def / 116 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Psywave
- Toxic / Stealth Rock


So I know that I have a reputation of "hatejerking" on this mon, but considering that it is a mon that is most at home on a niche team archetype and has only recently pulled its highest winrate of 50% I really do not think it is worth A+. I have spent a huge amount of time talking about the drawbacks, but I will recap them all by saying that Bronzor is a largely passive momentum suck in a tier that can hardly afford either of those things. It does check a lot on paper though, so I can see its place on stall. But only stall.

160292

Dodrio B+ -> A
Dodrio @ Choice Band
Ability: Early Bird
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Frustration
- Pursuit
- Quick Attack


Good Speed and excellent power means that Dodrio has grown to be a premier wallbreaker in the tier. Flying/Normal STAB is absolutely brutal and is really only resisted by Rock and Steel, and this tier has very very few Steel Types (Klang and Bronzor and ???). In fact, I would say that Dodrio is so effective that people run a Normal resist for Dodrio primarily instead of Stoutland so it should at least be on par in viability. I would go even further and say that Dodrio is the reason I wouldn't place Torterra in S. 100 Speed is blazing fast for a wallbreaker in the format, and Brave Bird will more than likely OHKO a non-dedicated resist. Downsides include the fact that Dodrio dies quickly due to recoil and rocks, and most people have a Rock that hard walls Dodrio on their teams, but hey at least the Flying means that it ignores Spikes.

160293

Beheeyem A -> A+ or S
Beheeyem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Signal Beam
- Trick

Beheeyem @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Signal Beam

Beheeyem @ Leftovers
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot / Calm Mind
- Recover
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Shadow Ball


This thing just...murders everything. There really aren't that many switchins to it, and whatever can switch in usually can't stop it from setting up either Calm Mind or Nasty Plot. Analytic in Gen5 procs on switches, so this thing has a built-in punish anyway. Beheeyem is the best special wallbreaker and the best special stallbreaker. As the meta progresses, I suspect that Beheeyem is going to play an even bigger role than it already is. Specs has always been good, but Bulky CM/NP is going to get even better, and if the meta becomes too offensive than Beheeyem can just set up its own Trick Room and sweep. I nom it to A+ first but fully expect the S later. As for downsides...it's not that bulky, and being so slow is definitely a bad thing in a metagame with so many strong wallbreakers who are all faster.


160294

Fraxure S -> A+
Fraxure @ Eviolite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Superpower
- Taunt / Aqua Tail

Fraxure @ Choice Band
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Superpower
- Aqua Tail


My main point is that Fraxure is better in more defensive metagames, where opportunities to set up are more plentiful. In offensive metagames, the ability to set is is limited so Fraxure's DD set is also just as limited. I find that a lot of the time, Fraxure is dealt with just by keeping momentum up on my side and revenge killing as necessary as +1 Fraxure is slower than just about every scarfer the tier usually sees. Do not get me wrong, Fraxure is still a menace that should rightfully be feared, but definitely not S material anymore. I did talk with Taskr a bit about this mon however, and we both think that CB Fraxure is probably the future of the mon going forward.

160295

Vanilluxe C -> B+
Vanilluxe @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Ice Beam
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Ground] / Hidden Power [Grass]
- Explosion


With Rotom-F gone, people are running a lot less Ice resists. TERRIBLE MISTAKE, says the Choice Scarf Vanilluxe. It was 5gen who used Vanilluxe in the Swiss Classic, and it plowed through the team as it was revealed that Ice switchins are far and few in between. Pair that with a Scarf to outpace most offensive mons and plenty of power for Ice Beam, and you have an excellent revenge killer who can even work as a wincon. Downsides are numerous unfortunately, as bulky Waters and Steels wall this thing almost entirely and hazards rack up damage fast. However, against most offense teams, Vanilluxe is able to pick up a kill or 2 before falling itself.

160296

Zebstrika A -> A+
Zebstrika @ Life Orb
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Overheat
- Hidden Power [Grass]


Continuing the thought process of having Rotom F gone, Zebstrika has risen as the best Volt Switch in the tier. Add that with the highest unboosted Speed in the tier and excellent coverage for switchins and you are left with a mon who can prove to be difficult to deal with. I can't really go into further detail, as I feel like "the fastest unboosted mon with excellent coverage, good abilities, and Volt Switch" is enough of an argument to consider a rise. Being hit by Spikes and getting stopped by scarfers and Stunfisk is a bother though.

I think that is enough for now. Some potential talking points I would love to see more of:

Vigoroth S -> Banned
Torterra A+ -> S
Golduck A+ -> lower
Throh A -> higher
Simisear B -> higher
Mawile B- -> B+
Lairon B -> lower
Stunfisk C -> higher

Gen5 is good now btw
 
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EviGaro

is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
RU Leader
Vigoroth S -> Banned Nah Honestly I think the bar should be ridiculously high for bans in earlier generations, kinda why I wanted to see only Frost go but I strongly disagree. Vigoroth is obviously awesome and really hard to take down but it definitely has its drawbacks, general lack of speed and breaking power for a gen that favors both is extremely annoying, especially when it also carries no real good resist for the tier. Great mon, something to consider, but it's really not easy to fit and potentially disappointing to use
Torterra A+ -> S yeah w/e
No strong opinion on this, it's very good and has two super great sets in rocks and CB but just generally falls a little short with growing counterplay, and the typing isn't super baller for the tier. Definitely something to consider and I find it a lot more splashable than a Vigoroth, so there's that
Golduck A+ -> lower Yes
Really good weather counterplay, but weather is getting worse and worse. Specs Golduck is fine overall but nowhere near that rank and other sets are just better done by Simipour
Throh A -> higher Heck yea
Throh is the best fighting type in a tier where the typing is ridiculously hard to check. Not having to be your - bad - Frost counter helps it a lot, both CB and BU are nightmare to play around and it has a guaranteed crit move like omg crits are so dumb in gen V ROFL arguably the best mon in the tier if you ask me
Simisear B -> higher who
Literally just use Simipour imo, fire typing isn't that good in the tier to begin with and it mandates way too good hazards counterplay for mediocre performances. And it's not like we have really good hazards counterplay like lol
Mawile B- -> B+ Agreed
bad defensive mon imo, but LO Sheer Force is super fun in this tier, great underrated breaker that drops stall pretty comfortably
Lairon B -> lower dude it's so bad
Like I said
Stunfisk C -> higher up to B+ imo
a very good rocker and ground type due to no real doubling on the weaknesses, super easy to use and a total paralysis troll. Also a very good flying check for the tier that still maintains some momentum your way, mostly because it haxes everything but sure

Regarding the others I feel somewhat strongly on, Beheeyem is probably the second best mon in the tier with like Throh in my eyes, so sure, give it S. Defensive NP destroys teams really easily, and it has two other fantastic sets. I don't like using Zebstrika, but its qualities are undeniable and it's pretty good at stopping Jumpluff shenanigans on more offensive teams, which is actually a serious pain to do in this tier. Fraxure is w/e, not really strong enough anymore and SD is just dumb slow. Disagree with CB being the future though, might as well go Zweilous there when it has better neutral coverage, more power and slightly better defensive utility, yeah it misses but like Fraxure almost always requires you to lock in Outrage which isn't much better. Natu is fine in A, although I think if that's done we should have a discussion about how we'd handle the new rankings for the hazards game, since they're almost all in mind for a Natu-less meta. Something like Drilbur, which LST used in Swiss and trusted is actually pretty good at rocking on Natu and beating stuff like Bronzor, + it spins. Tentacool is w/e but stop underrating it it's a good spinner and Knock + tspikes are fantastic in this metagame. Just some thoughts on the hazards thing and how we'll think about it moving forward, would be nice to get some thoughts bop
 
Since we're talking about BW VR noms, I think it's time to actually rank our two newest mons since it hasn't been done yet.

Gigalith: Unranked -> B+
So there's been a little bit of talk in Discord about this mon and whether or not it should be ranked higher or lower than Graveler. So I think the same rank is a good place to start. Sacrificing a little bulk and an Electric immunity for a much better offensive presence as a rocker I think warrants at least the same rank. Though I could see it moving up and down with meta changes.


Lapras: Unranked -> somewhere between B and A-
I think this thing is actually pretty threatening as an offensive mon, especially with its Water/Ice/Electric coverage hitting a surprising amount of the higher ranks. LO or Specs sets can pick up a ton of KOs and its bulk allows it to live a lot of neutral hits. It can also switch into Torterra since most aren't running Wood Hammer these days. Also running last move Ice Shard can be useful for picking off faster mons like Victreebel and Fraxure. All this being said, its weaknesses limit its effectiveness in a meta with Throh, Rampardos, and Zeb being pretty good.
 

Akir

A true villain!
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
PU Leader
Small announcement:

I have it set up so that, when clicking a mon's name on the Gen5 PU VR, you get a pastebin with the mon's recommended sets. Try it out and feel free to tinker with what is there. I only have it from B+ up at the moment, but that is more than enough to try the meta out in earnest. If you have had concerns getting into this metagame, this is a good opportunity to learn more about it.

Direct link is right here!
 

Specs

No Label
is a Pre-Contributor
Hi, just a small post about a Metang spread I've had for a bit now but didnt want to share it during PUPL.
https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/dpp/metang.png

Metang @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 128 SpD / 84 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake

This is a bulkier spread than the one that is currently ran, It is never 2 hit ko'd by Max Modest Poliwrath after rocks
252+ SpA Poliwrath Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Metang: 135-160 (41.6 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
You also have a much better chance to live 2 Ebuzz Thunderbolts (not after rocks tho cuz ebuzz busted)
252 SpA Life Orb Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Metang: 154-183 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Speed is for Muk, which comes in handy as Fire punch puts you into Explosion range so it's very nice to outspeed and hit it with Zen's.

Pretty short post but having a better match up against the 2 best mons has proven to be pretty successful for me and others that have used this (GeneralAnnoyance & TJ Mostly.) Metang is at an all time high in usage and is a crucial mon in just about every match up. It's pressured hard so being able to switch in easier to these threats lets it breath a bit more. Just as a short note I'm pretty happy with the DPP Meta right now, offense is still the go to but it's very healthy and there is a ton of room for variety.
 

Akir

A true villain!
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
PU Leader
Alright so a good number of you are wondering if DPP is going to get revamped as discussed in the other thread I made. The answer is: yes.

Here are the changes:

Drops: Mantine, Pinsir, Whiscash, Crawdaunt, Torkoal, Camerupt
Rises: Cacturne, Lickilicky, Poliwrath, Dusclops

This is a net gain in terms of # of mons, but the loss of things like Poliwrath and Cacturne promise a pretty big mix-up for the format. Overall I believe that aligning ourselves with new policy to get a more accurate picture is the best move. This meta was also taken from a screenshot of DPP NU metagame, and since this tier is speculative then it should suffice.



Additionally, BW PU is also having a few small changes. I was finally able to fully verify the mons list, so no longer will the list be confused because it is right here.

Drops: Pikachu
Rises: Gigalith, Lapras

This is a much smaller shift than in DPP, especially considering that neither Lapras nor Gigalith were used much (if at all) last PUPL. Even so, I am not too thrilled to lose a good Rock. Pikachu is interesting though...


Ok that is it for changes. I am planning on no more changes ever again besides the rare case of a ban. You are now all free to post!
 
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Specs

No Label
is a Pre-Contributor
Just gonna go over some of my somewhat early thoughts on the new drops for DPP PU, sets and viewpoints are subject to change tho. Overall really happy with what we got, and I'm very open to a Poliwrath-less meta. It didn't feel like a necessary evil but you were generally at a disadvantage if you weren't using it. The rise also benefits some of the drops heavily like Camerupt, Pinsir, and Crawdaunt.

https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/dpp/pinsir.png

Good fun mon right here. I've been toying around with Lum SD 3 attacks but I could also see rocks SD with edge/eq being a decent set too. Just a really scary midgame breaker that has a solid speed tier against common builds. Can't forget scarf also looking to be a decent cleaner, and band with the right predictions has very few actual switch ins. Looking forward to seeing it shine.


https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/dpp/mantine.png

REALLY scary. Rain 3 attacks with hidden power flying for STAB or HP electric for opposing Mantine is incredible for it. GA has been using lefties rain 3 attacks and I've been using the same set but with LO for maximum damage output. Has offensive checks in Purugly, Ebuzz before rain goes up but, has very little defensive counterplay from what I've seen so far. Personally think it might be too much, similar to how Drifblim was if you have it just one turn. We'll see though, definitely try Mantine out.

https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/dpp/camerupt.png

Probably my favorite drop out of the bunch. Camerupt really does well vs common Metang Muk Ebuzz builds, dual stab is really threatening and has just enough bulk to be a pain in the ass. Always open to new rockers as late old DPP was filled with the same Metang/Rhydon on every team. I've found rupt is fairly splashable and almost always does something. Not being a normal resist kind of blows, because you cant pivot into Purugly turn 1 and get up rocks like the previously mentioned rockers could. However Camerupt for sure offers the meta nice new rocker, offensive sets could even be looked into.

Don't have a big opinion on the rest as I haven't used them yet but Whiscash looks pretty cool. GA has swept me a couple times now with it. Dual stab is scary, good natural bulk and defensive typing, not the worst speed tier out there, looks promising. Crawdaunt looks really scary on paper, Poli gone is massive for it and has uses over the Whiscash in the huge attack stat forcing more switches, and having a better movepool of coverage. Torkoal I haven't seen once but it definitely has some uses to check Monferno, Pinsir, Muk, Metang (basically a majority of the physical meta.) Doesn't seem that hard to fit onto teams either, looks fairly promising.

Hope you go out and play some New DPP PU :D It's a really fun meta so far
 
As a big supporter of PU old gens, I'd also like to voice my opinions on these shifts and I actually think I have something to say about all of these so let's dive into it. I'll split the gens into spoiler tags so it's not a full wall of text since I'll say something about all of them.
Cacturne: It really sucks to lose such a good Spikes setter and priority user that was such a versatile mon in general. Specially biased w/ Sucker Punch was my personal favorite set but having a mon that can either run SD, NP, or just LO breaking sets while also providing hazards was very appreciated. Very upsetting that we almost lost this with the Sand Veil ban only to actually loose it not too long after.

Lickylicky:
Free my mans, he ain't do nothing. Most people prefer the SpDef set which was a great cleric thanks to Heal Bell and super FAT Wish passing. However, I preferred the Choice Band set Fun fact if you didn't already know: Prior to gen 7 Licky was the only Normal-type to learn Explosion, making it the only Pokemon to get STAB from it. This, in addition to the broken boom mechanics prior to gen 5 means that Band Licky was capable of having one of the most powerful moves in the game. Hopefully DPP NU appreciates this fact as much as I do, definitely the mon I'll miss the most. And losing this also means we just lost one of, if not the best Heal Bell user in the tier.

Poliwrath:
This one is also a little sad because it would've been amazing with the new drops, checking 5/6 of them. Also sad to lose one of the big 3 that kind of dominated the tier at one point. It's fallen off a little bit recently but no doubt it would've been excellent in this new meta.

Dusclops:
Gonna be honest, I don't think I've ever actually seen this mon used effectively. I guess stall loses a mon but if you're using stall in DPP PU something isn't right. This mon's only appearance in PUPL led it to setting Trick Room a couple times then being Toxic stalled even though Toxic stalling is what you would imagine it would do. Can't say I care much about it going.

Mantine:
This thing could be really cool tbh and unlike Specs, I don't think it'll be too much. A lot of Water types will be running around with the rest of our drops, and most will probably use Toxic or HP Electric to beat this. I think it'll function similarly to how it does in BW. Imo the self setting rain sweeper set will probably be its better set, but the defensive set could work too since it has pretty good bulk. I could see people running more Scarf Electabuzz and random HP Electrics on stuff like Politoed and Golduck to check the rain set. I wish this mon had a better Attack stat bc its physical movepool is out of this world. Also a shame it doesn't get Roost yet but we can't all be winners I guess.

Pinsir:
Not much more to say that Specs didn't already mention. A variety of sets that can work, with its access to SD and EdgeQuake, it can be really threatening. Band has virtually no switch ins if played correctly and Scarf can easily clean thanks to its decent enough Speed. It'll be fun to try out for sure.

Whiscash:
Finally Specs Whiscash can stop being a meme and actually maybe have a place. In all seriousness, this mon has a little potential to work on both sides of the spectrum. Access to DD and pretty nice bulk with its high HP is nice until you realize how slow this thing is, barely outspeeding unboosted base 100s at +1. But again, it's another mon with EdgeQuake and this one actually gets STAB on one. A Specs sets with Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, HP Electric, and Earth Power seems fun to me, but I think I'll have to see how this fares.

Crawdaunt:
Oops, did I say slow Dragon Dance? What Crawdaunt lacks in bulk, it makes up for in sheer power. I can tell you I'll probably be using a Choice Band on this thing since even though it doesn't get Adaptability, a CB Crabhammer is still going to hurt. And its coverage can help break other Water resists like Mantine with Rock Slide, and just about everything else with Crunch. If its Speed weren't so low I'd argue that there may be a possibility of this being broken but I think we'd still need time to see. That being said, after doing some quick calcs, it seems like the only things that can take two hits are defensive Gastro and Tangela so...

Torkoal:
Wait why are 4 out of these 6 mons so slow? First thing I thought was "Oh cool a Shell Smash mon" but then I remembered where I am. Anyway, a spinner that's weak to Rocks kinda sucks but that doesn't keep Armaldo down. Except Armaldo outspeeds and beat common rockers like Rhydon. Maybe I'm selling it short, it does get both Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock, as well as Explosion but I don't know how much that helps it. Honestly don't know what to think about this mon since it's so slow and weak to so many common types. And unlike Camel that can easily beat Ebuzz teams like Specs said, Torkoal really struggles with it. Checking some good physical attackers like Specs listed is fairly good though so maybe it'll find a place. Probably gonna be pretty mediocre but I like golden shinies so at least it has that going for it.

Camerupt:
Again, not too much to say about this one as like Specs, I'm pretty excited about this mon. It basically seems to me like a better Torkoal that just lacks Rapid Spin and doesn't check Purugly but does almost everything else better. Solid rocker that will no doubt have a fairly good impact on the meta, or maybe it's overhyped since we do now have a lot of Water type presence in the tier and several mons could just slap on HP Water if they wanted to deal with it.

Lapras:
I'm really mad about this mon leaving as I feel it didn't get nearly enough time in the meta for people to see how good it is. Its dual STAB along with Thunderbolt and a filler move (I chose HP Ground for Chinchou) could put a big dent in most of the meta, and it's really good bulk allowed it to survive even some super effective attacks like Jumpluff's +2 Seed Bomb, Zebstrika's Volt Switch, Stoutland's Superpower, the list can go on. I just wish we had had more time with it so people could realize its potential, not seeing it at all during PUPL made me wonder if people even knew it dropped.

Gigalith:
Another mon that dropped at the same time as Lapras and I thought would be pretty decent. Iirc, I was the first one to bring up that it should be the same rank as Graveler since both had tradeoffs (humble brag), Graveler having slightly better overall bulk and Sucker Punch, and Gigalith with a much better offensive presence and lack of a 4x weakness. I was really interested in using a Choice Band set with EQ, Edge, Superpower, and Explosion but never got around to it. Definitely a mon I'll miss but not nearly as much as Lapras.

Pikachu:
Akir said it in the Discord but basically the only reason to use this over Zebstrika is if you want Espeed. Imo it'll be pretty mediocre as physical sets will be worn down by Volt Tackle recoil and Nasty Plot sets are still pretty easily revenge killed by faster stuff since Pikachu's Speed isn't all that great. Another mon that I'm probably selling short but I just don't see it being all that great. (Fun fact: BW and BW2 are the only main series games in which Pikachu cannot be caught outside of transferring and events.)
 
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Many

Ehehehehh
is a Tiering Contributor
Here are some DPP teams from a certain very special user :toast:

https://pokepast.es/cd89c885b4a814ba - specs toed offense (legal version)
https://pokepast.es/3af5112559b11cc3 - specs toed (fuck kiyo) [used by banks pupl v]
https://pokepast.es/c1c00f68d0376606 - shuca muk + vigoroth
https://pokepast.es/1bdfa4c9fa235749 - weird scarf goose (outdated)
https://pokepast.es/c0710416727e3c64 - standard sub lo kadabra spikes (outdated)
https://pokepast.es/1064a68b07339613 - sub marowak sub missy
https://pokepast.es/3328c3e088b4b06c - lead machoke (rhydon) [used by obii pupl v]
https://pokepast.es/2f5fea0f4592d627 - lead machoke (relicanth)
https://pokepast.es/290fcd3bbc50142b - colbur cm xatu + hypnosis purugly [used by banks pupl v]
https://pokepast.es/fbbbe1195b61b0d5 - sub agility kingler + spikes + lo tpunch monferno
https://pokepast.es/e4cfc700b3e071b7 - colbur np missy (probably should use hp fight) (outdated)
https://pokepast.es/293fca989ca299cf - sd protect lickilicky (outdated)
https://pokepast.es/f5df86335dc3b97d - dragonair spikes (outdated)
https://pokepast.es/af9476d29c56a24c - specs glaceon [used by banks pupl v]
https://pokepast.es/e3d4dc8d7a4bd4fa - specs glaceon mk.ii (outdated)
https://pokepast.es/286881de225077c8 - sub toxic rapidash
https://pokepast.es/607f81ae58914886 - submachoke + paraspam (outdated)
https://pokepast.es/63a5c9423c0b957a - protox electabuzz (outdated) [used by drud pupl iv]
https://pokepast.es/b0c8abdbaee69dbd - spikes ho scarf goose (outdated) [used by drud pupl iv]
https://pokepast.es/82db0a7fe4106b7a - np pass mime + sunny day bell
https://pokepast.es/2df4f143ab875195 - protox amphy wip that never got finished (outdated)
https://pokepast.es/feda52b3af5e4766 - hypno purugly wip that never got finished (outdated)
https://pokepast.es/fc5d199da72a6a9b - ideas i wanted to use but never did
 

Akir

A true villain!
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
PU Leader
"Wouldn't it be great if there was a handy validator for all of these PU Oldgens? I always worry if my team is legal!"

It sure would! And thanks to fantastic user Honko that dream is a reality:

ADV PU Validator

DPP PU Validator

BW PU Validator

Simply punch in your team into the lower box and press Validate! The validator will then tell you if you are good to go or not. I will be adding these to the existing resources as well for ease of use. Have fun!
 
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Akir

A true villain!
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
PU Leader
Great news, the DPP PU VR has been updated! There have been CONSIDERABLE changes done. So many shifts, in fact, that I will not be naming them all. Instead, here are highlights:

New mons:

:dp/mantine: Mantine to S

If you haven't played much of the new metagame, this one might come as a surprise. If you have played much of the metagame, however, then this is most likely not a surprise at all. Mantine's excellent bulk and defensive typing has ironically given Mantine the title of most consistent wincon in DPP PU at the moment. Mantine's defensive prowess gives it plenty of opportunities to set up Rain Dance, where its primary STABs are powered up and is suddenly faster than just about everything but Scarf Electabuzz. Mantine can even mix it up and use a Substitute to set up even more consistently against things that should check it otherwise. The meta has shifted enough where people are now running HP Electric as normal coverage, and that is 100% due to Mantine.


:dp/camerupt: Camerupt to A+

With so many new Water threats, this one might come as a surprise. However, Camerupt's excellent bulk and key resists/immunities are what many teams heavily need from glue. Camerupt has the usual rocks and also has access to Roar and Lava Plume. Lava Plume and Earth Power also make for excellent coverage, and Earth Power can easily be substituted based on the team's needs. However the real appeal of Camerupt is in the freedom it brings to teams. Camerupt is just customizable enough that it can fulfill many needs teams need, and Camerupt is the only mon in the tier that is both immune to Electric and neutral to Grass. Camerupt checks Electabuzz. At least until ebuzz starts using HP Water. But then it loses to other mons...and Camerupt can always surprise with a good Rock Polish and countersweep too. Don't forget this gets Eruption and Explosion, so Specs works too! Plenty of options on this guy, so A+ fits great.


:dp/Pinsir: Pinsir to A+

Hailing as the newest menace to bulky builds, Pinsir comes down as a powerful offensive threat. Swords Dance with incredible coverage can make quick work of balance cores, and a Choice Scarf set can get the jump on most unboosted offensive mons in the format. Combine all of this with the fact that Pinsir can even set rocks and you have a mon that is a pretty heavy wildcard. Until you know which set you are facing, playing carefully around Pinsir sometimes feels like the only play. Luckily, Pinsir can get worn down pretty easily and the Speed is good but not great, so it lands in A+.


:dp/torkoal: Torkoal to A

If you look at Torkoal as a wall, you will only be disappointed. Look at Torkoal as a support mon with even more options than Camerupt, and you have an excellent edition to your team. Checking threats like Purugly and Rapidash for days, Torkoal can set rocks, Yawn, burn with Lava Plume or just Will-o-wisp, or use Rapid Spin. A Specially Defensive set for Torkoal is recommended, so Victreebel and Electabuzz can only 3HKO. Understand that Torkoal is a support platform and not a wall, and you will be happy with the results.

:dp/Crawdaunt: :dp/Whiscash: Crawdaunt and Whiscash to A

These 2 mons do largely the same thing (Dragon Dance), and are right next to each other on the VR. So, I will be grouping them together. This should be noted though: Crawdaunt is a wallbreaker, and Whiscash is the sweeper. Crawdaunt at +1 has just enough Speed to outpace the coveted 105 Speed benchmark, and with more immediate power Crawdaunt can better threaten balance teams. Whiscash, on the other hand, has better bulk and defensive typing, giving it more opportunities to set up Dragon Dance and even potentially go for 2. Once Whiscash hits 2 Dragon Dances, few things can genuinely stop it. The end result is that we got 2 new dancers in the format that are both formidable in their own rights.


Here are some more notable shifts:

:purugly: Purugly to S: Purugly has grown to be one of the most crucial components to teams. Purugly's unparalleled ability to revenge kill just about anything with Fake Out and superior Speed is proving to be a key contingency plan for most teams against the wave of powerful setup the tier now boasts. Combine with other excellent factors like access to Taunt and U-Turn means that Purugly can control the momentum of a match as well. Purugly was never bad, but nowadays it feels omnipotent.

:victreebel: Victreebel to S: Vic has always had 1 leaf in S and the other in A+, but it starts the new shift leaning towards S. The rise of so many Waters means that good Grass is in high demand. Sleep Powder also feels particularly free at the moment. Vic's versatility is always better in more...fluid metagames, which this one certainly is. If you need a wallbreaker, it is hard to go wrong with Victreebel.

:politoed: Politoed to A: Without Poliwrath around to check all of these new Waters, the job falls into the capable hands of Politoed. Encore and Perish song stop setup in their tracks, and Politoed has enough power to force many mons back out. Immunity to Water completes the deal as one of the better gluemons in the format.

:relicanth: Relicanth to A: No real shocker here, without Poliwrath plaguing its life Relicanth is now able to show the tier what it is capable of. Rock Polish is a great set that can sweep easily, and with great bulk and crucial resists to Normal and Flying Relicanth can find many opportunities to set it up. Choice Band is also killer, as very few mons - if any - actually can switch in on Head Smash and not be crippled if not KOed. However, the best set atm seems to be a bulky lead set, where Relicanth forces an immediate 50/50 of "will it set rocks or will it smack with Head Smash?", which puts a damper on Purugly's stride a lot.


:armaldo: Armaldo to B: While Armaldo is certainly good still, there is just too much outshining it at the moment. If you want a spinner, the vastly superior support of Torkoal is much more appealing. If you want a Swords Dance mon, there are better options too. Normal resist? More choices. While Armaldo is still decently effective, it has found it harder and harder to grind out a niche above its peers. A second spinner really did kill Armaldo.

:machoke: Machoke to B: In what I expect to actually be the most controversial move of this shift, Machoke fell from A to B. The reason is simple: Machoke's prowess is all in its offensive presence that it can barely use. Dynamicpunch is incredible to early disruption, and Thunderpunch is now even better coverage, but Machoke just doesn't have the Speed to fully flesh this out. Nor does Machoke have the bulk to flesh out long-term disruption plans. In the end, people have started to demand better from their leads. Electabuzz does something similar, but its Speed lets it maintain its presence throughout a match. Relicanth also forces unfortunate 50/50s, but has the bulk to be used multiple times. Machoke just can't keep up like it used to.

:dragonair: Dragonair to B-: Not much to say here. Extremespeed is good and basically-unresisted STAB is even better, but the new Dragon Dancers are just...better. More power. More consistency. Just...better.


If you are wondering how this was done, it was simple. All of the viable mons were put on a blank sheet, and participants were asked to order them. Using a system extremely similar to systems used to redo oldgen VRs recently, it was then found where each mon averaged in terms of ranking. The VR unfolded from there. Thanks to GeneralAnnoyance and Specs for the help! I am hoping to do something similar to Gen5 PU soon, as the results from this were, in my opinion, quite the success.

Feel free to post for adjustments! I am always open to a new opinion.
 
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Specs

No Label
is a Pre-Contributor
Hello! Just gonna go over some potentially unexplored/underrated counterplay to Mantine. With more people playing DPP PU than ever, and with Mantine being so strong I figured this could help some people who play or are looking to get into the tier!

In this post I will only be mentioning counter play to the Life Orb Modest Mantine, while assuming rain is up when it's attacking. Reason being is this set has been the most problematic for people to check defensively. Which in turn I think is one of the biggest reasons for the rise in Purugly being the tiers #1 revenge killer. Hope you enjoy:

:dp/regigigas:
Regigigas @ Leftovers
Ability: Slow Start
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Atk / 112 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Substitute / Confuse Ray
- Frustration
- Earthquake

252+ SpA Life Orb Mantine Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 12+ SpD Regigigas: 168-198 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This set is one of those sets that can Pivot in before rain goes up or on a turn the Mantine sets up rain, and cripple the Mantine very hard with Thunder Wave or get a good amount of damage in with Frustration. This is the only amount of bulk you need to check Mantine, the remaining EV's make you a bit more threatening offensively before slow start ends and after. If you want to check Electabuzz and special Victreebel better, you can go max HP max Spdef!

:dp/Quagsire:
Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Recover
- Earthquake
- Waterfall

252+ SpA Life Orb Mantine Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Quagsire: 140-164 (35.5 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 2 layers of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

I really don't think this mon is amazing, but the ability to check non HP Grass Electabuzz, Purugly, and Mantine means it's not in a horrible place in the meta. You technically don't need any bulk on it to not be 2 hit by Ice beam, however spikes are still fairly common in the meta, and w/o the added bulk you are at risk of losing if this is your only Mantine check. So I think the 56 investment is very nice to have!

:dp/Probopass:
Probopass @ Passho Berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 168 HP / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt

252+ SpA Life Orb Mantine Hydro Pump vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Passho Berry Probopass in Rain: 211-250 (69.6 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Not the most conventional check, but more of a lure. If they straight hydro on the switch and hit you do lose. However Mantine will usually rain dance the turn they expect a switch. You can get in and chew the LO Hydro in the rain, and hit back extremely hard. (Almost always killing after 1 round of LO damage, and always killing after stealth rocks.)

:dp/Lapras:
Lapras @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 220 SpA / 40 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Toxic

252+ SpA Life Orb Mantine Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Lapras: 158-186 (34.1 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Lapras has competition with the other bulky waters like Golduck, Politoed, Gastrodon. However the great dual stab and very solid power give it a decent reason to be used. Doesn't even sound that hard to fit on builds either. Lapras is cool, go try it out!

Hope you guys learned something or just go and try out one of these mons. This is one of the reasons I love this metagame, even with us having 4 S ranks there is still a great amount of unexplored options. Making it seem like there is an endless amount of variety, or just things to play around with.
 
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