Metagame PU Old Gens + Discussion (Gen5 Revamp)

This is looks like Furret's time to shine, being one of the fastest Pokémon in the tier and having powerful coverage for every noteable resist other than Shuckle and possibly Magnemite. Even a Curse set could be a big threat, possibly Curse Amnesia Rest Return with opposing Gastlys out of the picture. It also leaves Aipom entirely outclassed offensively which is just sad more than anything else. I'd wager that this thing ends up ranked pretty highly.
 

Akir

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I'm currently stuck at work, not doing anything, so I will quickly answer some faq on my phone here about gen2 PU.

  1. Yes, the list that Eseque posted is the real deal
  2. No, there are currently no plans for gen2 PU to be in any tournaments.
  3. It was released because Ransei unintentionally forced my hand. He meant well but woops.
  4. Yes, resources are coming. I just have a lot of other projects at the moment other than this, so it will be a while before it's finished.
  5. The next person who calls gen2 a stallfest is gonna get slapped. Poliwhirl alone makes it offensive, but even then gen2 is offense-based regardless
  6. The best advise i can give to people who are new to gen2 about how to play it is: purpose of action is the most important factor. Everything is bulky and has leftovers, so wasting your time with moves that don't push you closer to winning is a very real possibility
  7. Yes it has more fully evolved pokes than gen3. That is just how it worked out, get better memes please
Ok that's it for now
 
Can I ask how you decided on that list? I would say Dragonair/Parasect/Machoke don't see much usage and are fairly ineffective in NU. Possibly also Venomoth and Mantine. However I don't know how you came up with the list.

Also, I would ban Shuckle and consider either banning Xatu or allowing Murkrow based on their power levels in NU.

As an enthusiast for all GSC tiers I would like to know how to get involved with this tier.
 

Akir

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Can I ask how you decided on that list? I would say Dragonair/Parasect/Machoke don't see much usage and are fairly ineffective in NU. Possibly also Venomoth and Mantine. However I don't know how you came up with the list.

Also, I would ban Shuckle and consider either banning Xatu or allowing Murkrow based on their power levels in NU.

As an enthusiast for all GSC tiers I would like to know how to get involved with this tier.
As with all tiers before Gen4, Gen2 PU was created based on a VR. I know that you have a ton of VRs around and it's frankly incredible how much work you put into it, but I went with the VR from the NU community. After talking with Disjunction (yes im dragging you into this) we decided that the cutoff would be Upper C. So everything under that became Gen2 PU.

Machoke actually did make it into Gen2 PU, but was quickbanned in testing after we figured out that the initial list had absolutely nothing for a rest/sleep talk/curse/vital throw set beyond some incredible play that had to be performed every time it came in.

I would be ok with banning Shuckle personally, and looking into bopping Poliwhirl as well. I don't mind Xatu though, and the Murkrow would be a great addition too.

More than anything, if you have ever talked to me about my philosophies on tiering then you know that I always believe that group consensus is better than individual thought processes. One person can only see so much, etc. So I'm not opposed to shifting the list around (especially since it won't be in any tours and i never planned on releasing it soon anyway) but it will have to be done with as many qualified people as possible. This list is, at least, a great place to start and is 95% correct anyway.
 
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I haven't played many GSC NU games and still don't think that I have huge knowledge about that metagame. The PU banlist Akir made which we used for a GSC PU tour as part of our daily ROA tour night seemed okay to me in terms of resulting in a meta that was rather balanced.
Poliwhirl might be too strong. It is very fast and with access to Lovely Kiss and Belly Drum, it can be devastating if it comes in safely and some of its checks are weakened.

+6 Poliwhirl Return vs. Xatu: 283-333 (84.9 - 100%) -- 2.6% chance to OHKO - Xatu can come in when Poliwhirl uses Belly Drum, attack it with Psychic, survive the +6 Return and then threaten to KO Poliwhirl since it is faster. However, that requires Xatu to be at full health.
Elekid outspeeds Poliwhirl and threatens it but also takes lots of damage from ±0 Earthquake: Poliwhirl Earthquake vs. Elekid: 192-226 (65.5 - 77.1%) which means it can't always come in safely but if it does, it threatens Poliwhirl out.
+6 Poliwhirl Return vs. Sunflora with HpIce: 327-385 (92.6 - 109%) -- 56.4% chance to OHKO - Sunflora could KO Poliwhirl after Drum with Razor Leaf.
+6 Poliwhirl Return vs. Ivysaur: 297-350 (91.9 - 108.3%) -- 51.3% chance to OHKO
Ivysaur Giga Drain vs. Poliwhirl at 187 HP (=after Drum and Leftovers recovery): 170-200 (51 - 60%) -- 43.6% chance to OHKO
I might have missed some other pokemon that can be uses as checks.

Poliwhirl can also make use of Body Slam instead to paralyse its checks first that could survive a +6 Return from it. Maybe Hidden Power Flying can also be used as a tech. So there is definitely counterplay against Poliwhirl but nothing is very reliable so putting it under pressure seems to be the best way of handling it. I am not sure though if that can be done and common damage rolls deciding the outcome of games should be avoided.

At least with Xatu around, I don't think that Machoke would be too strong for the tier, especially that Curse, Sleeptalk, Rest, Vital Throw set Akir mentioned. If Xatu was banned, then the ban of Machoke might be justified.
I don't know how Dragonair, Parasect, Venomoth or Mantine would influence the PU meta but in NU these were not used very often. Neither do I know if Murkrow would be a good addition to PU. Since the tier is new, maybe we should just try to play with them. There might also be some other NU pokemon that could be allowed in PU.
Shuckle walls many pokemon of the tier - that is just what Shuckle does. There might also be potential for some other offensive strategies (Sandstorm, Curse) but I don't know if they can work. I do see merit for banning Shuckle though since it already is doing okay in NU but also some arguments against it. It is definitely one of the pokemon we should consider to ban even if we don't actually end up doing it.
Xatu seems very good in PU but not good in NU. I don't know if it is banworthy good.
Regarding Poliwhirl again, it is possible that it becomes less effective if we change other aspects of the tier but from what I have seen in a couple of games, it seems too strong for the tier.

I want to emphasize again that I don't have as much experience with NU especially with the the lower tier mons of it so take my first thoughts about the PU meta with a grain of salt.
 

Jorgen

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Dunsparce popped out to me in NU before I realized that Wigglytuff was a thing (or at least it was in the iteration I remember playing).

So off the bat I feel like land snake is gonna be an issue in PU. It’s already kinda tanky by even UU standards if we’re being real, and now it only has to contend with punches thrown by NFEs for the most part. Seems like an easy poke to use to get an unstoppable curseball, especially if Shuckle gets axed (though even Shux doesn’t help, +1 Iron Tail is a 3HKO, still faster than Shux’s Encore, and can negate defense boosts, although its presence *does* kinda force iron tail at the expense of Sleep Talk or HP ground for dealing with Xatu and Omanyte more comfortably, respectively).

EDIT: That said, use it and prove me right/wrong before immediately banning it or anything. Just shining a spotlght not giving an ultimatum.
 
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Taskr

Peng Ting
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Shuckle 100% needs to go, walls the majority of the meta and prevents set up users with encore. Poliwhirl is another pokemon that may be a bit too strong and forces teams to run a faster haze user which limits teambuilding quite a bit.
As for unbans, I dont see a problem with giving each of them a chance. I think that Parasect, Murkrow and Dragonair would fit into the metagame just fine but Venomoth and Machoke could cause some problems due to the lack of psychic types we have to check curse sets.
 
100% agree with a Shuckle ban. Not much more to be said on that. Poliwhirl however I think will be fine if Machoke & Venomoth get unbanned. Since one of Poliwhirl's best checks (Xatu) will be used even more to check the unbans. It does limit teambuilding a bit more but it'll be in check more. But ye I agree with pretty much all those unbans and bans.
 
I think Earthworm's proposal is good, especially considering the unbans. I am still not absolutely convinced that Shuckle is truly too strong for the metagame (but I can very well imagine that it might be). As I have said before, I think Poliwhirl might be too good and not healthy for the metagame. Xatu already seemed really good to me and even though Machoke and Venomoth will make Xatu more useful, Murkrow can be used as an attempt to remove it.

I would like to play more games of GSC PU and then make a more final statement. For now I think playing with the proposed changes would be okay.
 

Akir

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It's been a while since I've stated on here my opinions on GSC PU, so I will do that now for each. Now color-coded for fun: Ban, Keep, Unsure

Banning:

- Shuckle: 100% for. The ability to shut down close to all setup and still force the 4hko is pretty crazy. Shuckle just murders all momentum every time it comes out and that's not very fun or healthy.

- Poliwhirl: Pretty obviously broken atm but I still pause a little bit to directly ban it. After some research I figured out that offense has 3 other really powerful wallbreakers: Cubone, Azumarill, and Charmeleon. If those turn out to be enough then I'm all for the ban but none of them are as fast, as strong, or as easy to set up. Maybe that's a good thing, but since this tier has no spikes or boom then I can't rob offense of all of its tools at the drop of a hat.

Unbanning:

- Dragonair: In comparison to some of the others on this list, Dragonair is ok. The typing is amazing and the movepool even better. Curse sets, special Boltbeam sets, Haze Support...it can do it all. My only concern is that it's a massive boon to defense but less so for offense.

- Machoke: I really do not even want to humor this one. I really, REALLY do not want to run Xatu/Venomoth/Golbat on every single team just to beat this one singular threat so I don't lose otherwise. Can't phaze with Vital Throw, Cross Chop hits like a truck, HP Rock rounds out coverage, plenty of bulk, and Curse to top it all off. An absolutely incredible mon and I don't think the extremely shallow list of checks appropriately deals with it in a healthy manner.

- Murkrow: Honestly I kinda liked this thing in NU? Not the point. I think Murkrow would be a really nice addition. Not too strong, plenty of support options, and a good speed tier adds a lot to an offense team. Murkrow won't be beating any teams alone, but it would be a good team player. Especially as a good Pursuit user.

- Parasect: Yes I want it in the tier. Ok you can stop laughing. Seriously, Parasect has a lot to offer offense and defense teams alike. Spore is handy for slowing down Curse users, and the general support of spreading a mountain of status is never bad. It also can switch in on a lot of stuff that is difficult to deal with otherwise, like Elekid. On top of that, it can mix it up with a Swords Dance set if it feels like it. None of these sets are groundbreaking, but it provides the tier with a phenomenal glue options for basically all kinds of teams.

- Venomoth: I'm not sure...it has an amazing speed tier, great movepool, and plenty of power. People complain about Elekid hitting too hard, and Venomoth has 27 more Special Attack. Also has the Powders for spreading status, and can hit from both sides of the spectrum. My main concern, really, is what would actually beat this thing. Xatu again I guess but dang we are putting a lot of importance on that thing. I'll need to test more.

So yeah, there are my thoughts on GSC PU tiering atm
 

Akir

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In contrast to what I literally just posted, the idea of changing a metagame mid-PUPL really does not sit well with me or the other hosts, so instead Articuno will be decided now and it will be static until the end of the PUPL.

So, Articuno will be kept for all of PUPL. Official bannings will be decided after. If you do not want to play with Articuno, then the players themselves can decide that with a gentleman's agreement.

Afterwards, I invite all of the people who play in the tournament to vote on what to do with it. I honestly expect Articuno to be the last ban of the format...at least for a very long time.
 
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UberSkitty

Ok now rank Cherrim
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So I guess I'm making a relatively quick post on my thoughts on all this Gen 2 stuff since I'm a very important user. Also this is my first GSC post. Yay. Also also I'm not ripping off Akir's post I swear

Its overall a p fun meta, being able to use things like Furret and Elekid viably. That being said, its pretty obvious how early in development the meta is when you battle. Yes, I know how weird that sentence sounded, but the point I'm getting to is how there are quite a few broken, or at least unhealthy, mons. And some of them are pretty common.

Shuckle
Yeah... I think the popular opinion on this mon has been made pretty obvious. It simply switches in on so much and is just a pain to play against. Definitely ban.

Poliwhirl
Another mon that is just a pain to deal with, except this time on the offensive side. I will admit its not as bad to deal with as Shuckle, but I've often found it cleaning games with relative ease. There are various ways to shut it down even after its set up, like Haze Xatu, Elekid, and Reflect Sneasel, but even then there are only so many of those. Furthermore, this really limits teambuilding, having to make sure you have one or two of them on every team. It has Belly Drum alongside base 90 Speed and Lovely Kiss, just a disgusting combo. What is it even kissing with? Even if this thing does leave, at least we'll have Poliwag.

Dunsparce
Has ADV PU taught us nothing? I've run into occasions where one side starts setting up Curses and the opponent lacks something like Whirlwind Noctowl or Haze Xatu, so their best bet is to bring out their own Dunsparce. And what do they do? You guessed it, they start setting up Curses too, and it becomes a lovely "Who will crit first?" situation.

Speedpass
So here's something that hasn't seemed to be brought up here yet. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with Baton Pass. It's a great move for gaining momentum and stuff. However, I find Speedpass to be just a little too overwhelming. Ledian can just set up Screens, Agility once or twice, and Baton Pass into something that can set up a Swords Dance, and all of a sudden you have a +2 Attack mon that outspeeds the entire meta. Its not even that hard to get into such situations on dedicated Speedpass teams. Gets stoped by Whirlwind Noctowl and such, but again, I shouldnt have to run that on every team. Can we just ban Speedpass? Is that a thing?

As for the potential drops, I can't say I'm as experienced with these, so here are just some quick thoughts and speculations.

Parasect
Ignoring Akir's obvious bias, no matter how much he tries to deny it, this would just be a cool mon. It has good utility with Spore and Sythesis, or could even go a more offensive route with Swords Dance and a nice base 90 Attack. It's pretty much a better Ivysaur.

Murkrow
This would just be another really cool mon to have. A great offensive mon with really nice Speed and offensive stats, and even a pretty solid movepool. I could see it being kinda a pain to deal with in a similar vein as Elekid, but not broken.

Dragonair
Dragonair is a mon I'm kinda iffy with. This mon is still so versatile, its got pretty good stats all around, so who knows what it could do offensively or defensively. Even without Dragon Dance, it can still set up with Curse or Agility, with various physical and special coverage options. I could see this mon being a pain, but might as well test it out and just ban it if it is.

Venomoth
I don't have any experience with this thing. I've heard it could be pretty unhealthy, but similar to Dragonair, might as well just try it and see how it goes I guess. Though I wouldn't be surprised if it ends with Venomoth not in PU either way.

Machoke
No. You read my rant about Dunsparce (hopefully), and this is just another version of that. Even without Curse, it would still be overwhelming as frik. Like, what walls this? Its got STAB Cross Chop, and lots of coverage like Earthquake, Rock Slide, even Fire Blast for Parasect. Just a broken mon.

And now we interrupt this program with some opinions on Articuno in the DPP meta.

Under the unlikely circumstances in which I actually get bought in the PUPL and chosen to play DPP, allowing me to vote in this suspect, I'm voting ban. I find this thing to be simply too difficult to deal with. If you don't have something like Metang or Muk to bring in, it just spams Substitute and Roost and either Toxic or PP stalls everything. The biggest argument against banning it is Stealth Rock, but even then a lot of the time it just gets a free Roost off when it comes in. On the bright side it gives me a reason to use Pikachu.

And now back to your intended programming.

Lets just ban Restalk Curse. Bye.
 

Akir

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I made a spreadsheet containing just the base stats of all the Pokemon that are allowed in GSC PU based on the lists I've found around the place. Please let me know if there are any tiering errors. I'm probably going to start building some teams using this list soon. Is the best place to find games the PU room?
Yeah the best place is by far the PU room, and maybe the oldgens channel on the PU discord.

And that is a fantastic spreadsheet, but I do think that it is time that we added Parasect, Dragonair, and Murkrow to the format so sorry for asking you to change it suddenly lol. I didn't see any opposition to any of these so why not just add them now. As for Shuckle, let's test what we got more and come back to it.

So yeah, I guess that means Gen2 PU has 3 new mons?
 
I've already incorporated the changes you posted earlier (banning Shuckle and unbanning those 3). However I'm unsure on the status of Arbok, since it doesn't appear in the ban list someone posted in this thread.

For Shuckle, what strategies are there to beat it exactly? PP stall?
 
I've already incorporated the changes you posted earlier (banning Shuckle and unbanning those 3). However I'm unsure on the status of Arbok, since it doesn't appear in the ban list someone posted in this thread.

For Shuckle, what strategies are there to beat it exactly? PP stall?
You can use perish trap Gastly and Azu.
 
Quick view: I'm not particularly supportive of Dragonair, Murkrow and Parasect unbans. Although these are certainly interesting additions for the PU, we must remain in simplicity. As mentioned above, it would be better to stay on the division based on VRs: they are mostly "B Rank Upper" but the initial border was in the middle of C Rank (unless these VRs are dated). Otherwise why not unban also Graveler, Mantine or Pineco? If we take it arbitrarily, there is a risk of creating a labyrinthine system. For Arbok, I had forgotten.

That's why I agree well with the initial list (in addition to Shuckle's ban, who would be a other PUBL). I even propose to go further: since there are 43 mons in UU, it would not shock me to include also the "C Rank Lower" in the NU's banlist (Dunsparce, Gloom, Porygon, Shuckle and Xatu). We would get 34 mons in NU (we would have tiers with comparable numbers of mons) and that has the merit of simplifying the debate with Shuckle. But in the case where Xatu is absent, the PU may be radically different.
 
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Graveler and Pineco were both used a fair amount in NU in my experience (because of access to Rapid Spin and Explosion and the Normal resist/Spikes and Explosion, respectively). Mantine also saw some use but was less common due to lack of being able to do much other than wall certain threats sometimes. So I wouldn't object to considering Mantine dropping.

I don't think that VR has been updated a single time since it came into existence. It has Octillery in C rank, which is one of the top Pokemon in the tier. Someone pointed out that it's better than that but nothing changed. On the other hand, I updated my
personal VR
continuously over the course of my forays into GSC NU. I also updated the lower ranks a bit this evening after gaining some experience with the Pokemon having played some GSC PU.

If a different set of cutoffs for the tier are still undergoing consideration I would not suggest using the NU forum rankings. I would be fine with keeping things as they are though. I'll also put Arbok in NU in my PU spreadsheet now.
 
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Akir

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DPP Update:

Articuno is banned from Gen4 PU!

In a 7-1-2 vote (Ban/No Ban/Abstain, with 1 vote leftover), Articuno has been banned from Gen4 PU.
Akir = Ban
TJ = Ban
Heysup = Do Not Ban
GeneralAnnoyance = Ban
trash = Abstain
TonyFlygon = Leftover Vote
MiyoKa = Abstain
Chrisloud1 = Ban
Specs Jigglypuff = Ban
Aaronboyer = Ban
Drud = Ban

Voters were decided by who played in PUPL in the DPP slot, DPP PU Project Lead, and 1 Lead pick for being knowledgeable and involved in the tier.


Articuno has been a divisive presence ever since the popularization of the SubRoost set, which has enough bulk to get a Substitute up against most of the tier even with the 4x Stealth Rock weakness. Combined with Pressure/Toxic stalling, high speed for a wall, and decent power behind its uninvested Ice Beam, Articuno became a threat that was very difficult to fully counter. Articuno was best suited for punishing older meta-built teams, with teams that were too passive losing almost on matchup.

However, the metagame in PUPL did start to adapt around Articuno. The meta became significantly more offensive, as pressuring Articuno was significantly easier than countering it. Usage of the small list of counters like Metang also skyrocketed, with Metang being the most used mon for the first 2 weeks alone. The reliance on Armaldo as a teammate for long-term success was also a restricting factor...even though you did not strictly need Armaldo to spin, having it spin certainly was a massive boon.

Regardless, Articuno was a heavily matchup reliant threat whose presence alone made the metagame shift from balance and bulky offense to solid offense. As a result of this shift being seen as unhealthy, Articuno is deemed unhealthy for the metagame and has been banned.

Personally, I have mixed feelings about Articuno. Cuno is absurdly matchup-oriented (you either have a way to dislodge it, or you lose) and was distorting the metagame through sheer threat alone. But on the other hand, the showing of Articuno in PUPL was "meh" at best. Having Cuno around also put a lot of mons in the spotlight that never would have otherwise...the best example being Armaldo, who was seen as subpar until Cuno forced it to adapt. Rhydon also started running more bulk instead of max speed, Probopass was being used again, and the meta being more offensive isn't inherently bad. But Articuno was a wincon simply due to how difficult it is to dislodge through sheer stats, and I do not think that such a matchup-focused mon is good for tier development in the long run.

As I've been saying, I expect this to be the last needed ban for DPP PU. The metagame is in a place that I really like, so now it's time to fix Gen5 PU.
 
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