Metagame PU Old Gens + Discussion (VR Updates)

TONE

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Hey there everyone. So after finally catching up with DPP and seeing the shifts especially with the arrival of Mantine which looks to be a big pain in general as well as other mons like Crawdaunt and Whiscash, I'd like to give my own sets that I've been thinking up to counteract said mons and some metagame trends in general while showing some love to some little giants.


Chinchou @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 244 HP / 224 SpD / 40 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Surf
- Thunderbolt

While not by design, it does present itself as a decent response to Mantine if it isn't running HP Grass and can take 2 Hydro Pumps from Modest Mantine in the Rain from full and go for Rest to recover any lost health. It also doubles as a soft check to Electabuzz as without HP Grass, Electabuzz will have to hit 2 Focus Blasts or get Special Defense drops with Psychic to beat it 1v1. 40 Speed EVs lets Chinchou outspeed Adamant Rhydon and OHKO it with Surf. Not saying this will catch on (maybe in the future who knows), but I think it has a small enough niche to justify in some situations.

252+ SpA Life Orb Mantine Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 224+ SpD Chinchou in Rain: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


Bronzor @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Gyro Ball
- Psychic

So this is a bit of an odd one in terms of trying to justify using this over Metang as the main thing this has going for it that Metang doesn't is Levitate so it can double as a Ground check to stuff like Rhydon while still bringing the defensive capabilities that Metang offers in being a Psychic check. Most of the attacks here can be swapped out for other moves like Toxic or Rest with Lum Berry if you have certain threats covered. Yup I really just forced Kadabra to run HP Fire so it loses the speed tie against Electabuzz. Now for some other sets I came up with:


Crawdaunt @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crabhammer
- Crunch
- Double-Edge / Return
- X-Scissor

Crawdaunt is already looking like a prominent threat, but the problem mainly has been its low Speed and needing to Dragon Dance to outspeed threats like Electabuzz. With Choice Scarf however, you can bypass this issue while acting as a strong revenge killer without having to waste a turn going for Dragon Dance. Sadly, it has to be Jolly Nature as you can't outspeed Electabuzz and Kadabra otherwise. Also helps in suprising non Scarf Xatu thinking it can get off a free Giga Drain. last 2 moves are mostly filler as you'll either be clicking one of your STABs anyway, but overall, this is a nice catch all revenge killer against offensive teams.


Zangoose @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Close Combat
- Shadow Claw
- Pursuit

Yes, another Choice Scarf mon. while normally SD with Life Orb is better, more often than not, you just want to spam Double-Edge and get a kill. This does a pretty decent job at revenging faster mons like Electabuzz and has the means of hitting Rhydon and Relicanth hard with Close Combat. Shadow Claw is primarily for Misdreavus, and Solrock if you want to throw that in, and Pursuit is nice for catching weakened mons trying to switch out in general.

So that's all for my sets. Getting back into DPP PU has been a real treat overall utilizing these mons and finding new ways to build. Props to Akir for keeping the old gens metagame strong and stable for as long as you have man.
 

TONE

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Hey again, back with some more sets and this time including 2 teams I built for those looking for a change of pace. First the teams:


Glalie @ Damp Rock
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rain Dance
- Explosion
- Spikes
- Taunt

Persian @ Damp Rock
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out / Hypnosis
- Rain Dance
- U-turn
- Taunt

Gorebyss @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Ice Beam
- Rain Dance

Relicanth @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Waterfall

Electabuzz @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA
- Thunder
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Psychic

Swalot @ Damp Rock
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Rain Dance
- Explosion
- Seed Bomb
- Earthquake


A pretty straightforward Rain team that be modified in a number of ways. One example being Mantine > Gorebyss, but the idea of the team remains the same. Lead Glalie and set up Rain and explode whenever possible and Taunt slower leads trying to get up rocks or get up Spikes. Purugly was originally in this spot, but Persian's added speed to at least speed tie with Sneasel would be a bit more beneficial to have a better chance to get rain up again while still maintaining momentum with U-Turn. Hypnosis can go over Fake Out for utility, but Fake Out is still here to pick off weakened foes. Relicanth and Gorebyss act as the rain abusers, punching holes for each other wherever possible. Scarf Electabuzz acts as the revenge killer, benefitting from rain with no miss Thunder and outspeeding Mantine if rain is up. Lastly is Swalot which is kind of the glue mon here, designed to act as a bulky pivot to get up rain again, Seed Bomb is nice for weakening Water-types and Earthquake nails Muk and Metang super-effectively while also providing Explosion support to get in Gorebyss or Relicanth after setting rain up.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4nu-987162939 quick replay I had of this team vs poh



Machoke @ Lum Berry
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Atk / 12 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Bullet Punch
- Protect

Camerupt @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Earth Power
- Roar

Electabuzz @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Psychic
- Toxic

Kadabra @ Life Orb
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Encore
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Ground]

Whiscash @ Life Orb
Ability: Anticipation
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Victreebel @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Return
- Sucker Punch


So another offensive build, this one designed with the intent of overwhelming bulkier teams with double setup between Whiscash and Victreebel. Lead Machoke deals with most common leads and acts as a hinderence with No Guard Dynamic Punch + Bullet Punch to pick off weakened foes. Camerupt acts as the Electabuzz response not packing HP Water and Stealth Rocker with Roar being nice to have for phazing. Scarf Electabuzz puts the team together, providing a revenge killer and prevents SS Mantine from just destroying this team. It also benefits from the next 3 mons as all 3 have means of taking out Ground types so E-Buzz can spam Thunderbolt more freely. Lastly, there's the triple offensive core of Kadabra + Whiscash + Victreebel. All 3 can weaken each other's checks very nicely and is pain for bulkier teams to deal with in general. As the team is meant to be played offensively, you do have to play more aggro at times to prevent your opponent from getting the upper hand. And now onto some more sets from me (mainly sets I sent to Akir to overwhelm him lol):


Zangoose @ Choice Band
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Close Combat
- Shadow Claw
- Quick Attack

Just as Purugly applies so much pressure to teams to its Speed and teams lacking good Normal resists, Band Zangoose pretty much acts as a pretty devastating wallbreaker than can perform a nasty Normal spam core with Purugly picking off faster teams and Zangoose destroying balance by essentially 2HKOing anything that doesn't resist Normal.


Trapinch @ Leftovers
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Toxic
- Earthquake

Most ORAS players will remember this annoyance as a means of switching in on Zebstrika and taking it out. While it doesn't have the bulk of Eviolite, it can still act as a means of trapping and taking out Electabuzz with Earthquake here in DPP.


Persian @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Swift
- Thunderbolt
- Water Pulse

Requires some support, but this set is designed to set itself apart from Purugly. Some moves can be interchanged for other coverage but for the most part, this I feel is the best moves this Persian can run. Swift is for general STAB and boosted by Technichian, Thunderbolt does 94% minimum to Mantine and hits other bulky Water-types hard with Water Pulse here to hit stuff like Rhydon, Torkoal, and Camerupt super effectively. If you find the chance to get to +2, this thing can put in some serious work with hazard support.
 
Play DPP. It's good for your health.

Viability Nominations
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Rhydon A > A+ : Do you see this sprite? This is rhydon before he lays the SLAPS on your team. Rhydon, particularly rock types in general are so incredibly potent in this meta due to Purugly being mandatory on 90% of all builds. I've been using lead band which instantly punishes purugly lead (the most common lead) and forces a 50/50 KO turn one. The lack of poliwrath has made rhydon a super big threat in this meta and his presence can't really be ignored.

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Gabite B > A- : Gabite is one of the BEST scarfers right now in my opinion, base 82 speed and access to spamable STAB is perfect for a revenge killer. Predictions on ebuzz tbolt gives it instant momentum shifting ability and it carries enough bulk to take a fake out into sucker after rocks from purugly if you get locked into outrage (silk scarf does 73.2% MAX if purugly goes fake+sucker) making it difficult to revenge killer scarf gabite late game if you choose to wait to reveal it. Essentially, you want a mon that can come in and spam moves in this meta. Losing momentum is HUGE and gabite allows you to keep momentum without forcing predictions. The closest mon that comes to mind that holds a similar role is pinsir but pinsir NEEDS to click the right move. You often have to make a good predict with EQ/CC/Edge and then you get forced out after even if you get it right. Gabite does not suffer from that problem and I think it's a better option as a scarfer generally because of that. (Unpopular opinion but the mon is damn good)

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Relicanth A > A+: This mon might be better than rhydon. It has like a ton of top tier utility roles such as lead rocks in addition to running band while serving as your purugly check. It can 1v1 other rockers like metang, rhydon, torkoal, camel due to its speed and bulk. The one major problem with it is that if you're running it you need a dedicated water check because it's definitely not doing that for you. Running a Bellosom or a tangela is good for it as it complements the ground/electric/water "weakness" for your team. Mon is just a good staple and deserving of moving up with purugly spam trends.
 
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Specs

Remember where you've been
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PU Leader
Lost in horrible fashion in ORAS cup but still a fun tour, just gonna drop some builds I used in the cup or just have had success with:

Quilladin spike stack HO: https://pokepast.es/3c2532260964184c
Pretty fun team, Kadabra and Ninetales are great anti offense picks, Gabite gives you some nice short term Monferno counter play while being an offensive threat enough to get up rocks consistently. Arbok was just a last fun pick, it and Crustle can clean games fairly well generally being tough to kill in one hit giving you some set up opportunity. Really easy to auto pilot so go ahead and try it out if u want.

Raichu Scarf Leafeon thingy: https://pokepast.es/0ecb2f59c33d9ea8
Honestly don't remember if I used this lol, but built it right before the tour and it did decent in some tests. I've seen a good bit of both scarf and band Leafeon used which is really dope. Not much to speak on with the rest of the team, fairly standard sets. I really like Camel with Rotom being everywhere, and a nice check to the non water special meta like Mime, Missy, Kadabra, ect.

Taunt Mime + Mixed NP Simipour: https://pokepast.es/c99a7f9991b30213
Okay I def remember using this in PUPL, LST used it like round 1 or something of this cup and 6-0'd with Duosion which was pretty cool to see lol. Taunt Mime is super underrated. I've seen more HO and it's just a huge problem for the common leads and overall structure, also does good against stall. Offensive Mawile is a menace, Simipour is great, try out the team if u want.

Scarf Mime + Drifblim: https://pokepast.es/12478b17dad4da10
Had this for awhile, used it this tour a bit and was the team in the infamous one vs Pearl in PUPL. I like the dynamic of the build, and the mons just feel nice for my play style. Healing wish Mime + 3 offensive mons is pretty self explanatory. They give you a nice amount of options to set up for each other.

Taunt Mime + Probo Trapper: https://pokepast.es/f36b4da5d96b4c71
This was an earlier version of the other Taunt Mime build above (it's completely different tho obviously.) No focus blast on Mime made Probo a very attractive rocker on this build. It also helps out Duosion get rid of pesky Steels. Then just some breakers in Physically based Float, Offensive Mawile (who as you can tell I love), and some removal + better Monferno answer in Pelipper.

Sorry if I've covered some of these in my previous PUPL dump, but hey can't hurt to shout out some good builds again. Hope you enjoy the post and the teams :blobthumbsup: ORAS best/second best oldgen
 
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Metagame analysis and viability ranking update for DPP PU (EdgeQuake Meta)
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B+ > A-/A: Bellossom is on 4 of my most successful teams in this meta. It's not B+ at all anymore. While you may be inclined to think this mon is a momentum suck, it's actually incredibly viable and useful in this meta for a number of reasons. The first and possibly the most important is that water spam meta has DESTROYED rapidash usage. The main threat that punished Bell is now much less viable in today's meta. Every team has multiple water types (due to drops/Poli replacements) and rock types (due to purugly) and this has indirectly helped bellossom thrive. Bell usage has actually put Ebuzz at a position where I may not consider it S anymore and that is definitely saying something about its place in DPP PU. Sleep powder provides bell with the ability to help mitigate its passivity as well. Bulky Offense and balance can run a utility mon with recovery that has the ability to shut down opposing cores and check an S rank threat in Ebuzz. It's a fantastic mon and I would put my credentials on the line to say it's every bit deserving of A-/A rank.
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A > A-: Rapidash is not as spicy as we once was. High tier mons right now are: Whiscash, Mantine, Politoed, Relicanth, Gastrodon (to an extent), Rhydon, Camerupt, Torkoal. Rapidash just can't touch all of them. Sub tox is fine but you have so many checks to it that it's rarely sweeping or breaking your team as most teams have a bulky water for Mantine and a Rock for Purugly. Speaking of Purugly, it resists flare blitz due to thick fat and can outspeed to break rapidash sub. It's just not what it was and I haven't found many reasons to run it because it's taking SR damage to revenge and it has NO coverage to handle the millions of walls we have that check it outside of toxicing them. Lastly, it can't even pivot into anything in the meta. The only mon it can switch into and take advantage of is misdreavus, which I have some mixed opinions on to begin with (I actually think Misdreavus might be better in this meta tbh but that's a post for another time.).
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B+ > A-: Golbat has become a very relevant threat in this metagame when paired with a fat grass type like bell/tangela. The grass support handles ebuzz and golbat handles victribell and pinsir xscissor/CC. Golbat also has the ability to roost stall purugly late game to force the 3hko while it brave birds puruglydown. Bat also serves as one of the most reliable and pivotable (lol is that a word) fighting resists as Pelipper suffers from speed issues and lack of relevant switch in opportunities. Our most relevant fighting types are monferno/machoke and pseudo fighting type "CC Pinsir". Bat is the only mon that enjoys switching into those mons besides perhaps torkoal for monferno.
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A> A-: Muk needs to drop. I LOVED muk in Poli meta but it doesn't fit into the rock/water/grass meta DPP has developed into. One reason muk suffers while golbat is thriving is due to muk not having nearly ANY good switch in opportunities. Last meta, muk could come in on poli and AoA could threaten/predict metang to get the fire punch 2HKO. New meta has Camel, Reli, Rhydon, Gabite, Golbat everywhere and muk only really checks victribell (in which the opp switches to the previously mentioned mons). Muk can still boom but it doesn't have the staying power it once had. I'd honestly drop muk lower than A- but I have hope that someone can make it work. Right now it has a long way to go to keep up with the power creep/core changes.
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B- > B+ : Rampardos is an absolutely fantastic scarfer in the metagame right now that NO ONE IS USING. Max speed, jolly outspeeds base 105 mons which is essentially the second highest (relevant) speed tier in the metagame. The only mons outpacing it are other scarfers and purugly, which does 45.4-53.7% with a silk scarf Fake Out + Return. The mon has base 165 attack and the loss of poli means no easy revenging it with priority vacuum wave. The only mach punchers are monferno and monferno is incredibly uncommon since we received mantine and torkoal. Mons like whiscash, which should be natural offensive resists take
252 Atk Mold Breaker Rampardos Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Whiscash: 190-224 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
. One of the only mons that enjoys switching into head smash is Gastrodon and that mon is relatively exploitable right now due to not being a great mantine check yet serving as your defensive water. SpDef metang is one other mon that can switch into head smash but EQ coverage does ~90% to metang so it's a check if you can predict right. You wouldn't want to even switch metang in because it's taking 40-50% from Head Smash anyway.

Anyway, synopsis: Rampardos is faster than the majority of the tier with a scarf. It 2hkos/OHKOS everything but gastro/metang (of which, both are exploitable right now due to being passive in a very offensive meta).
 

Specs

Remember where you've been
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PU Leader
Hey nice noms my bro GeneralAnnoyance (especially the Rhydon one.) I've got some in mind too

:dp/Kadabra: A- to A
Been bopped by this thing a couple times now in friendlies and after looking at it more on paper and building with it a couple times I think Kadabra could move up. There are less scarfers going around at the moment, and most of the breakers running around are simply slower. That's the last thing you want to be when facing down Kadabra. We all know what it does so won't go into that too much, but actual 100% Psychic resists are hard to come by, you have Metang to cover it and that's about it. You have to watch out for the obvious Purugly, but Rhydon is better than it has ever been in 2 years, Metang is still a great pick, Relicanth is getting the recognition is deserves. You have more than enough support for it. Up one sub rank seems very fair to me.

:dp/Sneasel: A- to B+
This could just be another wild view point I have on the meta game, but I don't think Sneasel is very good. My main gripe is how bad the match up chart has gotten for it, the meta trends haven't been in it's favor for awhile. Rockers like Metang, Torkoal, Relicanth, hell even Rhydon has a decent 1v1 vs it (CB can never kill Rhydon even after rocks.) And bulky waters like the aforementioned Relicanth, Golduck, and Politoed all give it a tough time. It does threaten some of the S rank mons which is key, however I don't think it does a good enough job at actually breaking enough of the meta game to warrant it's rank. All of this plus how hard of a time it has getting in. TL DR: Sneasel doesn't do it's job as well as it has in the past, meta trends have caught up with it, has trouble winning key 1v1's, doesn't justify it's place in the A's (also yes Sneasel Pursuit traps Kadabra, I know this may seem contradictory but I'm more so focusing on it's ability to break defensive cores which is very key in what I think is good for offensive mons such as Sneasel.)
 
So no one made an official post about it because it mainly pertained to the BW Cup, but

RIOLU HAS BEEN BANNED FROM BW PU.
Its ability to phaze with Prankster Copycat-Roar gave it little to no counterplay aside from Magic Bounce Natu, Soundproof mons (namely Mr. Mime and Exploud), or faster Pokemon with priority. However, these are either niche picks or are beaten by certain sets of Riolu. Natu and Mr. Mime can potentially lose to Shadow Claw and even faster Pokemon with +1 priority can be outsped if Riolu sets up an Agility before it starts Roaring, making the only true way to beat it that way by using Fake Out or ExtremeSpeed. With hazards from Pokemon such as Dwebble, Glalie, and any Stealth Rock user, Riolu can potentially endlessly force switches, which is a very uncompetitive strategy.

Overall just stupid mon that stayed in the tier way too long. Most people won't even notice it's gone because it wasn't seen too often, but when it was, it could easily make people completely helpless.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5pu-1039806715-t0u5zang5k5ntjyitoam322fbdrgobxpw Ignore the Drifblim because it's banned, but this replay is an example of how some teams simply just fall over to Roar spam.

Now onto the next topic.

Vigoroth has been a controversial mon in BW for a several months now. With its great bulk with Eviolite, set up capability in Bulk Up, reliable recovery in Slack Off, and decent support moves such as Encore or Taunt, Vigoroth is able to set up on many slower or weaker mons in the tier, while also having a decent defensive presence. It's not S rank for no reason, and is considered one of the top mons. I am fairly neutral on the issue of banning Vig, so I'll provide both sides as best as I can, but this post is also meant to spark a discussion on this so please if you have any similar or differing opinions PLEASE POST THEM. My claims I'll make are not all-encompassing and I would love to hear evidence from both sides.

Pro-ban:

  • Set up. A well-played Vigoroth can set up on most teams and sweep them. While this is true of most setup sweepers, Vigoroth is unique in that its setup move of choice allows it to boost its bulk on the physical side, and it has reliable recovery. The only other comparable Pokemon we have in the tier is pretty much Duosion and the rare CM Beheeyem, as other setup sweepers either don't have reliable recovery or can't also boost their bulk. Beheeyem and Duosion are also much more easily dealt with which I will go over in the next section as well.
  • Speed. Vigoroth has tremendous Speed for an offensive-defensive Pokemon. This allows it to out-speed many potential threats even with minimal Speed investment before they have a chance to attack. This is another area that Vig outperforms Duosion and Beheeyem, as their speed tier leaves them much more easily revenge killed.
  • Encore and Taunt. I wanted to specifically highlight these two moves as I feel like they are two big reasons that Vigoroth has such an easy time setting up. Encore allows you to switch into Stealth Rock users, opposing setup sweepers, or generally defensive mons and lock them into a non-damaging move, giving Vig a chance to set up a Bulk Up or two. Taunt also can be used to prevent Pokemon from using Toxic, Thunder Wave, or phazing moves (aside from Circle Throw and Dragon Tail) against Vigoroth, preventing it from being crippled or more easily worn down.
Anti-ban:
  • Checks. Vigoroth can set up on a lot of the meta, however, since it normally only runs a Normal STAB move, several Pokemon can check it by resisting it. Ghost-types, though few and far between, can easily switch into Vig and cripple it with Will-o-wisp or some other form of support, defensive Klang can even take 3 +6 Frustrations with enough investment and Rest stall Vig, and Throh is possibly one of the best checks to Vig, by tanking its hits pretty well and being able to Circle Throw to phaze it out. However, some of these checks can be Taunted, even if Vig can't do much back to them.
    • Also Natu can bounce back Taunt and Encore, allowing it to Toxic Vig and potentially beat it.
  • Power. Unboosted Vigoroth can't kill too many things, if anything at all. It needs Bulk Up to be able to break things, so before that, even some Pokemon like Shiftry, Beheeyem, and Torterra can switch in and either threaten it with strong moves or set up alongside it. These may not be the greatest examples, but they do stand out somewhat.
  • Unexplored countermeasures. To quote Akir "until i see frillish make a comeback: there is still room for anti-vig tech." There are several unexplored options that can help check or counter Vigoroth that just don't see too much usage. As he said, Frillish, is a fairly viable Pokemon that can check Vig as well as provide team support in Will-o-wisp, has reliable recovery, Taunt, and several other tools. Unaware Swoobat sounds like a meme when Simple exists, but it also has a faster Taunt, reliable recovery, and can set up its own Calm Minds to beat it.
Obviously there are several more things that I could add to both of these arguments, but like I said, I want this to be a discussion. There aren't too many people playing old gens PU, but the ones who do (especially when it comes to BW) should voice there opinions when it comes to this tier. That being said, I think if I were given the choice to vote now, I would vote to NOT BAN Vigoroth, simply because of the last point on the anti-ban side. I don't think a lot of checks to it have been explored and I'd love to see this meta develop more over the coming months (even though I know the focus will be on SWSH).
 

Akir

A true villain!
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So with all of the feedback that I've gotten, I don't think I need to hold a genuine suspect for Vigoroth. While some ppl are against it, if I were to hold a vote right now it would more than likely be a landslide. The reason that I have not gone ahead and smited the thing, however, is the fact that Vigoroth is actually one of the most splashable spdef walls in the format. A lot of other mons, most notably Simipour, are checked pretty heavily by Vigoroth, and viggy's removal would be a direct and immediate buff to them. People already complain about BW PU being a trade war, so why make it worse?

Well, the argument of "broke checks broke so it's ok" has never held water in my eyes. I have always argued that if this were the case, then you should just ban both.

So. Let's talk about cutting deeper into BW PU before PUPL hits.

BW PU Revamp Phase 2:
:bw/vigoroth: :bw/beheeyem: :bw/Simipour:

I believe that these 3 are a package deal. The main reason Scarf Simipour is passed over so much is because it is free setup for Vigoroth. TR Beheeyem is also checked decently well by Vigoroth, and it is the same case if the Specs Beheeyem is locked into Signal Beam. The threat of Vigoroth getting in and getting a free turn of setup is a huge factor in both teambuilding and play, and is a primary punish for special attackers on a good portion of teams. If we were to just ban Vigoroth, we would be making Beheeyem and Simipour better just with that action.

Now, I am not opposed to just banning 1 and being done. Maybe we don't ban anything at all. However, all 3 of these mons have gotten complaints in the past, and making them arguably better doesn't sit well with me. Ideally, we would have a wonderful ladder and plenty of tournaments to flesh out the metagame ban by ban, but the next time this tier will be played heavily will be PUPL, which should be a showcase and not a workshop. I would rather go ahead and ban the immediate problem and snipe the incoming problems as well. People always say that BW PU needs a lot of work, and this will get a lot of work done.

As always I am open to discussion and counter-opinions. This metagame is being polished for the greater PU community after all, not just me. If you pull up the teambuilder as well, you will find that the Gen5 PU teambuilder no longer shows NU mons and just the PU ones (and PUBL but after this banning session I am gonna compile and request it). So give it some thought and let me hear it.
 

Akir

A true villain!
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Community Leader Alumnus
The results are in for BW PU Revamp Phase 2:

I asked 10 people to vote on this, and decided them based on performance in the PU Classic and involvement with the tier. Because there are 10 people, 6 were enough to ban. With that, the votes are as follows,

Vigoroth: 7 PUBL | 2 PU | 1 Abstain
Beheeyem: 5 PUBL | 5 PU
Simipour: 2 PUBL | 6 PU | 2 Abstain

:bw/vigoroth:Vigoroth is now banned from Gen5 PU!:bw/vigoroth:

Vigoroth was widely viewed as an intensely effective setup sweeper, being able to set up on 3/4 of the tier with little to no problem. Because of that, there are really only 4 ways to keep it away from setting up: a faster Toxic, Encore, Taunt, or extreme offensive pressure. None of these are particularly consistent, so many matches came down to whether or not the opponent had the ability to beat Vigoroth at any single given point in a game. If you need an example of how good Vigoroth is at setting up: Vigoroth could actually work as a Normal Check to Stoutland just by being faster and getting a Bulk Up first. The people who didn't want to ban it favored the fact that Vigoroth is in fact the most splashable spdef wall the format has and an important sleep absorber as well. However, Vigoroth's sheer ability to reverse the momentum of a match with 1 Bulk Up was deemed too overbearing for the format.

A split house on Beheeyem is not surprising. The Specs set is obnoxiously hard to switch into, and Trick Room can mill offense. However, counterplay to Beheeyem has been on the rise and its satisfactory run in the PU Classic can be construed as indicative of a metagame that has adjusted to its presence.

Simipour was put mainly on here to get people to start thinking further down the road. Simipour does have many factors going for it, mainly that it is a fairly versatile attacker with multiple low-risk-high-reward sets (3 come to mind: NP, Scarf, and Mixed). But at the same time Simipour really only showed its stuff in PU Classic 2, where people were not prepared for it anywhere near as much as people are now. Without one of its primary checks in the tier anymore however, I suspect that Simipour will face a vote again in the future.

You can see some interesting comments on the votes here:
MZ:
All 3 are pretty limiting but I think BEM is something we have improved at being able to check/lure/annoy and will be able to even more with reduced building pressure from the other two. I don't think there's a lot of room to improve vs Simi and Vigo, which is the key distinction.

Drud:
Broken

SergioRules:
I personally have not seen enough well played Vigoroth to feel that it needs to be banned, though I know that it is one of the most controversial mons at the moment, and the same can go for Simipour. I feel that after the showing in classic and PUPL last year, Beheeyem hits a little too hard for the tier.

HJAD:
Vigoroth: sets pick and choose their counters, given the tiers counterplay in terms of full on normal resists that don't get eaten alive by either sub bu or taunt bu, your only real option is getting quick toxics / taunts off on it, with most of the things in the tier not really capable of doing so and then living to do their actual job, since fast things are pretty much analagous to being frail as well. That on top of the fact you need both, since you stop subbu with taunt and tauntbu with toxic, so in the end most people will end up chalking the mu vs vigoroth and resort to "maintaining offensive pressure" which is tough enough given its very good bulk and speed.

Beheeyem: there just isn't enough counterplay for this thing under trick room. Any specific check is dependent on what coverage move its using, and with hazards as powerful as they are, its very easy for it to get a trick room and then run through a team in the midgame leaving a shell remaining for the other 4-5 mons on the beh team to clean up. Easily the most efficient midgame breaker / cleaner in the tier, needs no support whatsoever (and does even better with it) and very skewed risk reward in general. Needs to be banned for betterment of the tier (and offense, offense is so bad rn)

Simipour: I guess I'd need to see more games of this in action, its clearly one of the best pokemon in the tier given its coverage and speed tier, thats credit that should be assigned to it without hesitation. But i guess the fact its easily revenge killable by any scarfer in the tier allows it to be easily checked over the course of a game. That and if it wants any power it needs to be running specs, and having only 1 stab means that if it does indeed lock itself into a coverage move like ice beam or hidden power, it can easily be abused by the next settup threat. It kinda plays into the trade warfare BW PU has become, and I dont neccesarily think its a broken thing for doing that at a higher speed tier since it comes with relative disadvantages such as lack of out and out power and extremely frail. Really fat things have options to wall it fully, balance teams struggle vs it but should usually retain good momentum through scarfers / rk'ers and offense has a few things in the speed tier above as well as scarfers in general as well. No ban for now, but i'd like to see how it develops first without 1 of the above threats which are a level above it atm.


Tack:
I belive viggy/bem create a super unhealthy meta, and simipour hasn't been an issue at all during testing

LST:
I dont think any of them are overly oppressive. Vig offers a good backbone for a lot of teams and sorta holds the tier together despite being to best of the 3 so I'd rather it didnt go.

Thanks to TJ, Taskr, and Xiri for also voting!


So with that, we move into a new meta for PUPL. I will be working on updating resources in the meantime.

See you guys for Round 3!
 
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Akir

A true villain!
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Community Leader Alumnus
Gen4 VR Update

Bellosson B+ to A+
Electabuzz S to A+
Rhydon A to A+
Relicanth A to A+
Kadabra A- to A
Gabite B to A-
Rapidash A to A-
Golbat B+ to A-
Muk A to A-
Camerupt A+ to A-
Rampardos B- to B+
Sneasel A- to B+
Armaldo B to B+
Tangela B to B+
Parasect C to B

Most of these are just small adjustments, as this was actually the first VR shift of this final metagame. I will explain some of the bigger changes though:
  • Bellossom has proven itself to be by far the best glue in the format. Excellent support in Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, and Leech Seed makes it an asset to Balance and Offense alike, and the extremely valuable resists to Water and Ground are coveted by just about everyone. The main selling point of Bell, however, is the consistency...both of itself and what it brings to the team. Borderline S rank imho.
  • Rhydon is still the cover child of DPP PU, since it is so unique to the format. It finds quite the place too: absurdly effective and absurdly exploitable. Low Speed and Spdef keep it down and make it easy to lure, but the high HP, Attack, and Defense makes it an excellent Normal resist and wallbreaker. Arguably the best Stealth Rock setter, only truly competing with Metang.
  • Electabuzz fell, 70% because Bellossom is now everywhere. The format is now also slightly faster, making Electabuzz's natural speed worth less. It can run Scarf but that is rather risky in the current metagame. Still a menace, but not S worthy.
  • Gabite made quite the jump, but if you saw PU Classic finals then you would have an idea as to why. Resisting Rock, Electric (immune even), and Fire without being weak to Water or Grass is the envy of all other Stealth Rock setters. The Choice Band set also has no true switchins: any mon able to switch into Outrage can't switch into Earthquake. Well worth the jump.
  • Parasect is good ok? No I'm not just saying that. Walls Electabuzz and Mantine without HP Flying, gives Aromatherapy...etc etc...
Samples are now also updated. I have gone with the RoA format, so you can just copy all of them and load them into the PS teambuilder and they should all plug in correctly. If people preferred the old format though, I can easily change it. 8 samples by the way!

Also while I'm here I will give some quick thoughts on the metagame. In stark contrast to the other metagames I have been working with (5 & 8), I think DPP PU needs no bans and I am honestly quite happy where it is. Some people have knocked around the idea of potentially retesting Roselia into the format, and I am honestly interested in seeing that, but I want to wait until after PUPL and am not entirely hopeful that Roselia will be a welcome addition.

The format is set and ready for PUPL, so let's see how the format changes!
 
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DPP VR Nominations
Rises
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Relicanth A+>S


Relicanth @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Head Smash
- Waterfall
- Rock Polish
Relicanth is the premier rocker in DPP PU. Its 55 base speed gives it opportunities to outspeed and kill most all relevant rockers (Rhydon, Torkoal, Metang, Camerupt, Armaldo, Probo) and it has dual stab that cannot be both resisted with a very spammable 150 base power head smash. Since every team now needs a resist to purugly, Relicanth offers by far the best role compression in the tier with very few drawbacks. With the loss of Poliwrath from the meta, Relicanth usage has skyrocketed as the only mons regularly switching into it are Whiscash, Gastrodon, and the ever illusive Quagsire. These mons don't fair well vs 252 adamant head smash from your standard offensive rocks Reli and are easily checked by one of the most common meta glue mons, Bellossom.

Specifically, Relicanth is excelling in the following sets: Lead Offensive Rocks (to counter lead purugly), Defensive Rocks, and Choice Band. Relicanth's ability to lead and instantly threaten head smash is making it incredibly potent right now and the most common water checks are opposing bellossoms, to which Reli's 252+ Head Smash does 67.7 - 79.9% to max hp Bellossom.

Additionally, lead machoke is becoming more popular to threaten instant D-punch to lead purugly/Lead Reli. It's important to mention that adamant Relicanth outspeeds jolly machoke (209 vs 207 speed). While Reli does not have a favorable matchup vs Machoke, it outspeeds to threaten waterfall flinch or at the very least, to 2hko with waterfall after it has survived a dynamic punch. So as a result, despite some difficulties leading, Reli still has a chance to win the lead matchup or to get rocks up.

CHECK THIS COOL MATH OUT FOR THE LEAD MACHOKE MATCHUP
Relicanth has a 20% chance to win outright without taking damage if it flinches with waterfall. (2/10=Insta Win)
If it does not get the flinch, it gets hit by dpunch and has a 50% chance to break confusion and 2HKO. (Of the remaining 80% (8/10) of the scenarios, 50% of them will be lost due to hitting in confusion and 50% will be won due to breaking confusion).

MEANING, we can assume half of the scenarios it will be winning (4/10) and half it will be losing (4/10). If we add all of its winning scenarios up, it will be winning 6/10 scenarios and losing 4/10 scenarios. So, even with an unfavorable lead, Reli is still beating machoke.
I predict lead Ebuzz/Victribell to become more popular in the future due to Reli's dominance in lead matchups.

Finally, I want to make mention of Rock Polish on Relicanth. Rock Polish is the perfect final move on lead Reli and is capable of taking a mon with dual stab that goes unresisted to an unreasonable speed tier for most of the meta to deal with. Additionally, it frequently finds opportunities to set up rock polish on purugly, metang, zangoose, torkoal, golduck, muk, standard rapidash without Hp grass, and scarfed pinsir locked into X-scissor.
After a +2 Rock Polish, Jolly Reli hits 458 speed, which outspeeds jolly scarfed pinsir at 442, which is our most relevant scarfer besides xatu. My lead set has adamant to 2HKO machoke, but dedicated rock polish should always run jolly.

Overall, Relicanth is omnipresent in today's DPP PU meta for good reason. It offers utility with rocks, role compression as a purugly resist, and sweeper potential all in one set. It's the definition of an S rank mon and it's deserving of the rise.

1592006599745.png
Machoke B > B+
Machoke @ Lum Berry
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Dynamic Punch
- Payback
- Bullet Punch
Alright, so hear me out on this one. Machoke is beating our best lead 40% of the time (lol sorry, had to bring the math back). Seriously though, the mon is good. Not much ohko's off the bat (especially for those that lead) so something is getting hit with a Dynamic punch. You know what likes switching into D-punch? Golbat, Muk, Sableye, Misdreavus, and Xatu. The first 3 struggle hard in Relicanth meta and have lost a lot of viability. The fourth (Missy) can't OHKO with Shadow Ball and can't burn due to lum berry, to which you get a free payback OHKO (115.7 - 136.3% on offensive sets). The last (Xatu), actually fairs well and guarantees and OHKO as long as it breaks confusion. The problem here is, Xatu is a pretty weak scarfer overall and Bellossom really chips away at it's ability to spam Psychic.

The fact of the matter is, we don't have fighting types anymore, therefore we don't build with them in mind. Machoke is better and has that same "how do I switch into this" factor that lead Reli has right now. Back to my initial lead math, 40% of the time, machoke is beating the best rocker, preventing rocks, and still living with around 40-50% health. Machoke also forces the purugly switch by using protect because Frustration can't OHKO outright, which gives you immediate momentum. To top it all off, it has BP for stopping glalie spikes at 1, which is something lead reli can't do. Just overall a really solid mon right now and is fitting of B+. Try it on offense and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

1592005107388.png
Murkrow B+ > A-/A
Murkrow @ Life Orb
Ability: Super Luck
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Grass]
Murkrow is an absolute god right now and I'd argue it's the best if not one of the best breakers we have. It offers one of the best unboosted speed tiers in the PU by being able to outspeed most relevant things under base 105 (our tier's standard "fast mon" speed tier). The only things that don't get OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by the above set are niche mons like Ampharos, Spdef Metang, and Probopass, which do not fair incredibly well in the current meta. Outside of these mons, Murkrow consistently can switch in on the revenge kill and take lives with the ever spammable Brave Bird into coverage move. Additionally, Murkrow has STAB priority which most of the tier cannot replicate. Having the ability both break cores and revenge kill scarfers/mantine which is really useful and I think we will be seeing a shift into bird meta to handle our growing "bellossom on every team" problem. Overall, Murkrow averages like 2-3 kills a game depending on how you played it and it always shines when played well on offense.

Drops
1592005783101.png
Metang A+ > A
Metang @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake/Thunder Punch/Explosion

This nomination really kills me because metang got us through some really tough metas (looking at you, Articuno) but Metang is a relic of the past. With the rise of Relicanth and the introduction of camerupt and torkoal, Metang has taken a huge hit in the meta. If I want a purugly check, I'll run relicanth/rhydon. If I want a spdef rocker with guaranteed rocks, I'll run Camerupt/Torkoal. If I want an offensive rocker, again Relicanth/Rhydon. Metang is that lukewarm middle ground that doesn't do anything better than our other rockers besides checking victribell. It has a bit of versatility in its moveset but losing to ALL the other rockers destroys its viability. Muk usage has gone down too since last meta so there is even less of a reason to put this on your team. I just can't support this mon as all it's really doing now is checking Victribell and the occasional Kadabra/Xatu.
 
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Didn't think about making VR noms before PUPL as most of the playing comes from those games, but I'll follow GA's lead.
DPP

Relicanth A+ -> S
Big agree on this one. I won't restate too much of GA's reasoning but Relicanth has quickly become one of the best leads in the tier, if not the best. It reliably gets rocks up, and has a really good offensive presence as a rocker. Choice Band is also super good as it can just get free kills so easily. I think it easily fits in S rank.

Whiscash A -> A-
I've tried to use this thing, I really have, but it's just really underwhelming. Sub DD is completely walled by Bellossom, Tangela, Pelipper, and Mantine, and running Stone Edge only helps with the latter two. It just feels like this is really outclassed as a Water-type by Relicanth and Crawdaunt who can break Grasses, and as a Ground-type by Rhydon.


Zangoose B+ -> A-
Zangoose is a really good scarfer right now and the SD set is a great breaker. It suffers a little from the prevalence of Scarf Electabuzz and Torkoal, and while some people would call Zangoose a "worse Purugly" Zang has a clear niche of being able to break Rock-types without running lure HP Grass, and more reliably hitting/beating Ghosts with either Shadow Claw or Pursuit (Purugly gets Shadow Claw I know but never runs it).

Also I agree with the rest of GA's nominations, Murkrow and Machoke have seen a huge increase in viability from my experience, and Metang has definitely fallen off as a rocker.

BW

Simipour A -> A+/S
Not sure how this hasn't been nominated already, but since it was one of the 3 mons that was up for banning in the last BW vote, I'll say why it should also rise in VR. Even though Simipour seems very one-dimensional as a Choice Scarfer, its high Speed tier is super important, and is the main reason I've seen someone using Scarf Zebstrika (not that I think that's viable). The threat level of this Pokemon is super important when planning a team, and you should probably have at least one hard check to it like Mantine or Klang, and also a way of revenge killing it eight by being faster like a Scarf Rapidash or something with priority. And that's not even mentioning the Sub+Salac Berry+Nasty Plot set being used, which can easily catch someone by surprise and sweep a team without the right checks.


Dwebble UR -> B-/C
Honestly wasn't too sure about this but after using the sample team that features it, I was really pleased. Having both Stealth Rock and Spikes in a meta with super bad removal is really good, and it can beat Natu with its STAB. I don't know if replays are needed for this since it obviously has enough merit to be featured on a sample team but I'll post some anyway. 1 2

Once Simipour and Beheeyem are banned I'm really happy with the current state of BW, sure there are minor changes, maybe some other small bans after PUPL, but this meta has been really fun to get back into and I definitely recommend other people get more into it!
 
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Well I'm double posting technically but the last one was like two months ago so I blame everyone else for not posting.
With PUPL sort of winding down and coming to playoffs, I figured I'd make some more nominations for old gens mons that have seen either good or bad usage so far!
DPP: A New Hope
Magmar: UR -> A/A-
Starting off strong, we have what I believe may have been the most overlooked Pokemon in DPP PU thus far, being completely unranked and pretty much unused until this PUPL. Magmar is a strong and decently quick Fire-type, setting itself apart from other fire types by virtue of a better average power and Speed and really good coverage for the tier (Rapidash and Monferno lacking the Special power, Camerupt and Torkoal lacking the Speed). Fire Blast is an absolute nuke, and the options of HP Grass, Focus Blast, Psychic, or Thunder Punch can all help break through common Fire resists like Mantine, Rhydon, Gastrodon, Relicanth, and more. Mach Punch is a good option as well to pick off things like Rock Polish Rhydon and Relicanth, Sneasel, and Purugly. It's already proven to be extremely potent in PUPL games as seen here: 1 2 3 4 5 and with a 4-1 record, even putting in a lot of work in the game it lost, it's objectively seen some good success. I don't know how much more to say about this as I think this is a mostly popular opinion. Stealth rock weakness obviously hurts it, and since it prefers Life Orb, its longevity can be a little lacking, but overall it can put in tons of work.
Grovyle: UR -> B/B-
Grovyle falls into the same boat as Magmar, an NFE Pokemon that never really got looked at because of other FE mons. Unlike Magmar, however, Grovyle sets itself apart with the Speed that other Grass-types (Bellossom, Victreebel, Tangela, and Parasect being the only other ones on the VR) lack. Its special coverage isn't anything to write home about, pretty much limited to Grass STAB and Hidden Power Fire/Ice, but with some decent mixed options in Thunder Punch, Pursuit, Brick Break, and Rock Slide, it can easily work around some of the Grass-type resists in the tier. Good recovery in Synthesis and Leech Seed can help it stay around against more passive Pokemon and I even think that there may be a small niche in something like SD or Sub Focus Punch with a Liechi or Salac Berry. It does still mostly remain outclassed by Victreebel and Bellossom, but if you need a little extra Speed, then it's definitely a fine option. And here are some examples of it from PUPL so far: 1 2
Bellossom: A+ -> S, MAYBE Victreebel: S ->A+
This may be a more controversial opinion but I think these two may be better off switched from their current rankings in the VR. Victreebel is still an amazing threat, don't get me wrong, it just seems like in this meta with a lot more faster and strong threats, that Bellossom's sturdiness gives it a little extra edge. Better bulk and generally playing a more defensive role means it seems to fit on more teams as a Water and Ground resist, which Vic can't do. They have almost the same usage in PUPL right now, and Vic's usage is a little more consistent where Bello has dropped off in the past two weeks. Really, I feel like it may be better to put them both in S, but imo Bello might be just a little bit better.
Tangela: B+ -> A-
Tangela has risen a little bit as one of the few mons that can pretty reliably switch into Relicanth, as only Banded variants can 2HKO it with Head Smash. Obviously, I've talked a lot about all the other Grass-types (except Parasect bc that's a booty mon) and Tangela shares a lot of similarities with Bellossom, but as a more physically defensive wall. It's been used significantly less than Bello and Vic, but still has some notable wins. I think it deserves a rise.

Final notes on DPP:
  • I still stand by all the nominations about DPP in the last couple of posts.
  • Play more DPP PU if you haven't already it's very fun.
  • There's been a lot of innovation in the tier this PUPL and I hope to see more weird and fun things pop up between now and the next big DPP tour.
  • C rank looks like a bunch of really terrible mons and I almost want to unrank them all save Regigigas. I'm interested in seeing maybe a small revamp of the lower ranks but I'm not exactly sure how.

BW: Revenge of the Sith
I don't really have any VR nominations that I haven't already said, though I do maybe think some more bans need to take place before the meta really becomes balanced.

Beheeyem and Simipour are still huge threats that limit teambuilding from what I've seen, however, I'd also like to add Gothorita to the list of possibly bannable mons. Its counterplay is extremely limited and it can easily turn more passive Pokemon like Vileplume, Bronzor, and Stunfisk into set up bait for an extremely easy sweep. Stuff like Zweilous and Scraggy have seen more usage than is probably warranted, just because they mostly beat Psychics like Beheeyem and Goth. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but it does show that people are using really weird things to counter them. All that being said, I honestly feel really conflicted about making these bans, as I really like the current meta and it does allow for a lot of experimentation with underrated mons, I just think it might be a little too volatile right now.

ORAS: The Force Awakens
Electrode: B- -> B+/A-
I promised my #1 Electrode user teammate Kiyo that I would make this nomination. Electrode is a really slept on mon in ORAS, being both faster and stronger than Zebstrika due to being able to run a Modest nature, while only being slightly less bulky. It still may not be as good as Rotom Frost which has a little more Speed and a secondary STAB, but its Thunderbolts actually hit harder than Scarf Rotom and a lack of weakness to Stealth Rocks helps too. Kiyo's 3-0 record using it in PUPL has definitely shown how good it can be.
 

Lilburr

boo
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UU Leader
I'm ill rn so this won't be as flashy as I'd normally make my posts but I wanna talk about a mon I've been using a ton, kinda adding on to what SergioRules posted above me. That mon is, ofc, Scraggy.

:bw/scraggy:
Scraggy has always had a niche in BW lower tiers; the lack of Fairy types means it's dual stab is entirely unresisted (to my knowledge) and it's rly bulky, so it checks a lot of things. It even still has old analyses for RU and NU and, while it's not used in those metagames anymore, it just goes to show that it's certainly a potent mon. In PU, though, I think it goes beyond that.

UR -> A- at the very least.

Scraggy is absolutely terrifying in this tier. Its typing is an absolute blessing; being a Dark-type alone is amazing in this tier, being neutral to Bug is absolutely crazy, and having excellent bulk on top of all that is absolutely ridiculous. It's also resilient to status thanks to Shed Skin and Shed Skin + Rest means it's not hampered as much by its lack of passive recovery/BW's sleep mechanics as some other mons.

Scraggy @ Eviolite
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 236 SpD / 20 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Crunch
- Rest

This set allows Scraggy to act as a sturdy form of counterplay to a whole host of top threats. At a quick glance of the VR, some of these include:

:beheeyem: :torterra: (defensive tort at least) :zebstrika: :duosion: :golduck: :natu: :victreebel: :gothorita: :simipour: :vileplume: :mr-mime: :glalie: (watch out for boom) :muk: :rampardos: :graveler: :klang: :mantine: :bronzor: :shiftry: :grumpig: :stunfisk: :maractus: :relicanth: :swoobat: (sorta) :tentacool: :mawile: :chinchou: :audino: :abra: :vanilluxe: :zweilous: :sneasel: :hypno: :munchlax:

Probably a lot more but I got soorta bored of searching, point is that it has a great 1v1 matchup vs most of the tier and is really hard to stop once it gets going. On top of that it can be used pretty liberally early on as so many mons fail to actually hurt it at all, rly, so you can safely rest and wake up later (or instantly if you're lucky).

The main reason I don't see this destroyer of worlds as an S tier mon is mainly bc of Throh. Throh is like, the best Scraggy counter ever, and it happens to be an S tier mon too. You really can't do a ton offensively with Scraggy until Throh is removed from play, but thankfully, Gothorita makes that condition pretty easy and I think it's Scraggy's best partner as a result. I'd go as far as to say that the combination of the two is actually pretty unhealthy.

It's been reliable in PUPL for me and for others and often just autowins on matchup. I think it's seriously one of the best mons in the tier (maybe that'll change if some of the psychics are banned) and could go as high as A+ but I'll leave it at A-/A just because of the fact that it's pretty unexplored as of rn.

Ban goth btw
 

DnB

#DnB4608, its way easier on discord :>
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
BW

After playing BW PU in PUPL I found myself almost never looking at the VRs, the higher ranks seem accurate, but the lower ones are just, well, i'd call it unexplored.

UR > A
Everyone knows: I love Purugly. This thing i S Rank in BW ZU and it does the same job in BW PU: Fast Fake Out + U-Turn user that cleans in the late game. You need hazard support, which isn't really hard to get in BW, all spinners are just bad and the only viable anti-hazard option is Natu, which loses to most offensive Rocks setters. Purugly outspeeds the most common anti-lead Jumpluff and is only outsped by Sneasel/Zebstrika/Persian/Scarfers. It is a safe answer to weather teams because Fake Out + Hazard Chip + Sucker is enough to kill the weather sweepers, or at least stall out the weather turns, a perfect example can be found here in my pupl match vs lambovino.
Only bulky mons like Torterra, Throh or Duosion can switch into it, but they get chipped down by Fake Out + U-Turn and are forced to recover after they switch in. Stuff like Bronzor or Klang can stop it completely, but Purugly functions mostly as a support mon, that forces switches in the early/mid game and is super annoying to deal with and can't even get revenged easily because of Sucker Punch. A/A- seems fine for it, i would put it into A: Stoutland brings immense power but its kinda slow, Dodrio is faster, but slightly weaker and weak to rocks while Purugly is the weakest, but also the fastest of the 3, so it would fit right in that spot in A Rank.

C > B
Persian is just a weaker version of Purugly, but has its niche in weather teams as a fast Rain Dance setter thats also super annoying with Fake Out. Special Sets could work, but the Simis seem better to do that, so its best set is probably a Anti-Lead Variant with Fake Out, Sunny Day/Rain Dance, Taunt, U-Turn/Double Edge, basically a option for weather teams to beat Jumpluff and you don't want to use HP Ice Zebstrika.

C > A-
Simipour is A, so I see no reason why the fire version would be only C rank. Sure, its weak to rocks, but most teams just rely on Golduck/Simipour as their Fire resist, so yea, +2 Fire Blast hurts. The only real thing in the tier that stops it is Chinchou (HP Electric should be the 3rd Move on a NP Set to deal with Pelipper/Mantine/Waters). It's clearly not at the same level as the water ape, but C rank seems super low for it.

UR > A/A-
Ye, idk why no one is ranking this thing, it was also UR in BW ZU, although its super good. Its a more offensive variant of Gabite and has the Ability to deal with Natu, Goth and Duosion. Ive used Eviolite with Rocks and Choice Band and both were great. In a tier with not many Steel Types it just feels great to click CB Crunch. It also learns Taunt which is great for things like Dwebble or Onix. I would put it in the same rank as Gabite, both are very similar, Gabite has better stats but Krok has better Stabs and Moves. A seems a little bit high for both Krok and Gabite, i would move both to A-.

UR > A-/B+
The best hazard setter for your standard HO team. Dwebble gets up Rocks + 1 layer of Spikes almost always and the only things that stop it are Jumpluff and Natu. Dwebble has been used a lot during PUPL and it just seems weird that its not ranked. Its only use is hazards, but in a tier with no viable spinner or the ability to easily spinblock if you really want to, you are happy with trading a mon for 2 layers.



these are mons i personally used and i feel like should be rated higher. Other than that, S to A- rank seems pretty accurate. The only thing that is annoying is Goth...


Can we juts ban shadow tag? It isnt even that good in BW PU than it is in BW NU/BW RU, but its still super annoying when you are building teams and you are basically forced to run offense, just to not lose to this thing. Goth makes stall unviable and in balance builds u never want to run a bulky mon without u-turn/vswitch, just because of the chance of you running into Goth. Banning Shadow tag would make the meta better, Duosion/Beheeyem are still the prime psychic types in the tier that u have to prep for, but with Shadow Tag gone you can at least run a more defensive team without the fear of getting 6-0ed on team preview. Shadow Tag isnt even needed, there is no real threat in the tier that you have to trap (Throh can phaze you out, defensive Torterra isn't a big problem and offensive can't really get trapped, Machoke is a worse Throh, etc). The best set is Scarf, so you can kinda safely revenge something in this super offensive meta, but even that gets done better by other mons.
Shadow Tag restricts team building and pretty much forces you to not run a defensive team, in a meta where defensive teams are already hard to use because there are no viable spinners in the tier, this seems too restrictive. A Shadow Tag ban would make these teams at least somehow viable, without overthrowing the rest of the meta and it would also just be healthy for teambuilding in this tier :)
 

Specs

Remember where you've been
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
PU Leader
Approved by Akir
Hey all, there is now a DPP PU Discord server! If you're a fan of the gen already, or looking to get into it this is the best place for all your needs! We will also be hosting tournaments too. Link: https://discord.gg/nM2DCkd

Hope to see you there :heart:

edit: this link should never expire, sorry to the people who tried to join but couldn't!
 
Last edited:

TONE

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I'mma revive this thread with something I threw together for the ADV Tour granted I got haxed out just as fast I got subbed in, I'd at least want to share the 1 team i actually put time and effort in granted the EV spread are a bit unortodox and semi-stall in nature, but helps in certain scenarios.


Mightyena @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 108 Def / 144 SpA / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Crunch
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Toxic
- Protect

Ivysaur @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 236 HP / 68 Def / 108 SpD / 96 Spe
Calm Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Leech Seed

Noctowl @ Leftovers
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpD / 56 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Toxic
- Protect
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Marshtomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 224 HP / 232 Def / 28 SpD / 24 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Refresh
- Protect

Omanyte @ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Protect
- Surf
- Ice Beam

Yanma @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Protect
- Reversal
- Hidden Power [Flying]


The lead can be interchanged with Ivysaur, but I like Mightyena's ability to weaken lead physical attackers like Furret with Intimidate and chip them down with Crunch. HP Grass is weird on Mightyena, but it helps against Omanyte leads trying to get up Spikes early game as this team has no spinner so it's a great lure for getting Omanyte to stay in as Crunch doesn't 2HKO Max HP Omanyte. As for the rest of the EVs, the HP and Defense investment lets Mightyena take 2 Banded Earthquakes from Vibrava after Intimidate whereas the Special Attack investment ensures Vibrava is 2HKOed by Crunch. It also takes 2 Choiced Banded Earthquakes from Marshtomp as well after Intimidate and HP Grass will always 2HKO. Toxic + Protect is always an annoying combo for teams lacking Heal Bell support and any chip I can get will benfit the endgame. Yes Ivysaur has no Synthesis, but I figured that Leech Seed was enough of a problem for opposing teams to handle bar them having their own Ivysaur or other Grass type as whittling my opponent's HP was more important than trying to get back some on my own with Synthesis. This combined with Sleep Powder makes for a annoying combination. Giga Drain for added recovery and Sludge Bomb I didn't really need per se, HP Ground can go here for Lairon, but getting a potential poison on something switching in is pretty cool and it gives me a way to break Minun's Substitute just in case it tried to SubPass. EVs are kinda similar to Mightyena, living Banded Marshtomp's EQ and KOing with Giga Drain, Speed is for Adamant Lairon, rest thrown into Special Defense. Noctowl acts as a sponge for special attacks and provides a Sleep and Ground immunity in one is great for a team like this. Helps dissuade Earthquake spam by the opponent as well as taking hits from stuff like Charmeleon and Dragnoir barring physical DD variants. With Noctowl's investment, Minun's Thunderbolt never 2HKOes and the Speed is for Modest Sealeo so I can Toxic before it can potentially Sub as neither of Noctowl's moves can break Sealeo's sub in 1 hit. HP Ice cause screw Vibrava and it lives Banded Rock Slide if I need it to. Marshtomp handles most physical attacks and is my main response to Lairon. The HP investment is 1 point higher than a Leftovers number with enough Special Defense to not be OHKOed by Charmeleon's HP Grass from full with the Speed outspeeeding uninvested Sealeo. Refesh is great for removing status and Protect again is nice to scout to Choice items and racking up potential Toxic damage. Omanyte provides needed Spikes on a defensive oriented team like this and Normal resist. You can also do Rest Chesto Berry over Protect if you want to keep Omanyte healthier long term. Lastly is the late game wincon in Yanma which is imporant to keep hidden as it is easy to get impatient on a team like this, but the combination of HP Flying + Reversal hits most of the tier for neutral damage and Yanma benefits greatly from Omanyte's Spikes.
 

Akir

A true villain!
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Gen2 PU
:gs/elekid::gs/hitmonchan::gs/mantine::gs/poliwhirl:

After a long hiatus, Gen2 PU is back and better than ever! Before I begin, massive shoutout to Earthworm for getting the mons list for me.

So there are a good amount of changes to the mons list. So many, in fact, that it really is not worth comparing it to the old metagame at all. As for mons, the selection sits interestingly in between Gens 3 and 4, so there is an interesting mix of Pokemon familiar and new to explore. I have done an amount of work towards fleshing out this metagame more, but only to help shape the idea of what the metagame even looks like. As for the direction, I'm leaving that to the playerbase.

Mantine
Hitmonchan
Hitmontop
Golbat
Seaking
Venomoth
Noctowl
Seadra
Tangela
Sunflora
Furret
Magcargo
Ponyta
Bayleef
Machoke
Parasect
Murkrow
Wartortle
Charmeleon
Croconaw
Ivysaur
Togetic
Wobbuffet
Quilava
Ariados
Weepinbell
Yanma
Poliwhirl
Beedrill
Onix
Butterfree
Corsola
Flaaffy
Nidorina
Nidorino
Magby
Elekid
Aipom
Omanyte
Kabuto
Growlithe
Pidgeotto
Rhyhorn
Staryu
Skiploom
Koffing
Unown
Tentacool
Delibird
Voltorb
Teddiursa
Phanpy
Drowzee
Grimer
Krabby
Eevee
Seel
Clefairy
Cubone
Goldeen
Psyduck
Oddish
Natu
Chikorita
Bulbasaur
Slowpoke
Totodile
Squirtle
Gastly
Abra
Doduo
Charmander
Cyndaquil
Smoochum
Machop
Mankey
Shellder
Venonat
Snubbull
Geodude
Sandshrew
Bellsprout
Remoraid
Larvitar
Dratini
Poliwag
Vulpix
Horsea
Meowth
Ditto
Ekans
Paras
Mareep
Nidoran-f
Nidoran-m
Jigglypuff
Diglett
Ledyba
Spearow
Hoothoot
Rattata
Pidgey
Spinarak
Swinub
Slugma
Hoppip
Marill
Zubat
Togepi
Cleffa
Sentret
Wooper
Tyrogue
Igglybuff
Pichu
Kakuna
Metapod
Magikarp
Weedle
Caterpie
Sunkern


This metagame is starting on a fantastic foot as well, as it is actually getting a RoA rotational ladder next month and a Round Robin Tournament! An unexplored metagame is also very exciting, but I have created a VR based on my personal impressions of the format:

All mons within a subrank are alphabetical, not in order of viability. All mons within the same subrank should be considered approximately the same in terms of viability.

Very Top Tier:

:elekid:Elekid
:furret:Furret
:hitmonchan:Hitmonchan
:poliwhirl:Poliwhirl

Top Tier:

:abra:Abra
:aipom: Aipom
:beedrill:Beedrill
:cubone:Cubone
:delibird:Delibird
:gastly:Gastly
:hitmontop:Hitmontop
:mantine:Mantine
:murkrow:Murkrow
:noctowl:Noctowl
:onix:Onix
:seadra:Seadra
:seaking:Seaking
:sunflora:Sunflora
:tangela:Tangela
:venomoth:Venomoth
:voltorb:Voltorb

Mid Tier:

:ariados: Ariados
:flaaffy:Flaaffy
:golbat:Golbat
:grimer: Grimer
:ivysaur:Ivysaur
:machoke:Machoke
:magcargo:Magcargo
:parasect:Parasect
:ponyta:Ponyta
:quilava:Quilava
:snubbull: Snubbull
:togetic:Togetic
:wobbuffet:Wobbuffet

Low Tier:

Everything else!


I also have jotted down some of my opinions on some mons in particular that I had a blast testing out, so if you wanted a bit more in-depth discussion about some of the mons, here is my take:
:gs/elekid:
Elekid @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- Ice Punch / Fire Punch
- Cross Chop / Thief / Toxic
- Psychic / Thief / Light Screen

Easily a Top 4 mon, Elekid is an absolute menace to the format. Outsped exclusively by Voltorb and sporting perfect customizable (tbolt/cross chop/ice punch/fire punch/psychic/even thief) coverage, Elekid finds its niche of harassing the entire format and sweeping. Electric is an excellent STAB, proving to be critical in KOing Mantine and Poliwhirl. The combination of an almost-uncontested speed tier and the ability to cut through offense easily with its STAB makes Elekid a mon that you absolutely need to have a solid answer to.

:gs/hitmonchan: vs :gs/hitmontop:
Hitmonchan (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: none
IVs: 22 HP / 26 Atk / 24 Def
- High Jump Kick
- Hidden Power [Rock] / Return
- Rapid Spin / Mach Punch / Agility
- Curse / Agility

This set can also work for Hitmontop!

So if you know your GSC, you know that these two are...basically the exact same. Their HP, SpDef, and movepool are the exact same. The difference, however, is that Hitmonchan trades 16 Defense for 10 more Attack and 6 more Speed. This is massive, as it means that Hitmonchan speedcreeps important base 75 Speed mons like Delibird while also having the highest Attack Stat in the format that is backed up with STAB High Jump Kick. Hitmontop's higher Defense makes it a better switchin and spinner however, so there are merits to both. Personally though, I feel Hitmonchan is the better of the two...hence the higher VR ranking.

:gs/Mantine:
Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: none
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric] / Haze / Sleep Talk
- Rest

Probably the most interesting new mon, Mantine makes its presence known through the sheer weight of its meaty stats. 140 Spdef is far beyond the scope of the rest of the tier and many special attacks that aren't Electric can struggle to get the 5HKO. The defense stat isn't a major weakness either, as a good number of STAB attacks can still only squeeze out the 3HKO. It is also worth mention that Mantine's 80 SpAtk means that it can dent quite a few holes into the opponent as well. In this sense, Mantine is an extremely reliable wall in the format that is even immune to Spikes. However, Mantine can also prove to be a sitting duck. A sleeping Mantine is a welcome sight for the Poliwhirl to Belly Drum, and some of the bulkier mons like Sunflora can even potentially use it for setup fodder.

:gs/poliwhirl:
Poliwhirl @ Leftovers
Ability: none
Happiness: 0
- Lovely Kiss
- Belly Drum
- Frustration
- Earthquake / Surf

IF you played the previous version of GSC PU, you know exactly what this does. For everyone else, Lovely Kiss + Belly Drum + great base 90 Speed makes Poliwhirl the best dedicated setup sweeper in the format. It is a fairly straightforward strategy: put something to sleep, BD, sweep. However there are some flaws in the formula. The strongest physical attack Poliwhirl boasts is Double-Edge/Return, so no STAB is available. Poliwhirl is also wholly checked by Elekid, who outspeeds and OHKOs. When playing with Poliwhirl, always assume that there is an Elekid on the back row...but if you are able to get rid of it, Poliwhirl can sweep a shocking amount of teams. Lategame though.

Rapid Fire:

:gs/venomoth:
Venomoth @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Sleep Powder
- Stun Spore / Whirlwind / Screech / Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Psychic

Excellent support options in Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, and Whirlwind while having great resistances to things like Fighting. Sludge Bomb and Psychic make for excellent coverage, but is fairly weak.

:gs/delibird:
Delibird
Ability: none
IVs: 14 HP / 24 Atk / 26 Def
- Spikes
- Thief
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Flying] / Hidden Power [Rock]

The only mon in the format with Spikes. Not terrible otherwise per se, but definitely earns a high VR spot due to the Spikes. Remember that you can only set 1 layer in GSC!

:gs/Tangela: vs :gs/Sunflora:
Tangela @ Leftovers
Ability: None
- Sleep Powder
- Growth / Stun Spore / Reflect / Hidden Power [Fire]
- Giga Drain
- Synthesis

Sunflora @ Leftovers
Ability: none
IVs: 6 HP / 28 Atk / 24 Def
- Growth
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Synthesis

The two bulky Grass mons. Tangela has higher Speed and Defense while having access to better support movepool of Sleep Powder/Stun Spore/Reflect, but Sunflora has higher SpDef and SpAtk. Which is better? Try both!

:gs/onix:
Onix @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Protect / Toxic
- Explosion

Fairly good Speed in 70 and a monsterous 160 Defense stat is an interesting Pokemon make. STAB SlideQuake is nice, and Explosion is excellent. Can also check Elekid to an extent...just be careful of not switching in on Ice Punch (you can only take 1 with Protect).

:gs/gastly:
Gastly @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Explosion
- Destiny Bond

Spinblocker! Also pretty good 80 Speed and great coverage with Thunder/Psychic/even Explosion and Destiny Bond. 0 defenses though, so don't expect it to take much more than a Sludge Bomb. Why Thunder? The Paralysis chance and chance to OHKO Murkrow of course!

:gs/murkrow:
Murkrow @ Black Glasses
Ability: none
- Drill Peck
- Pursuit
- Haze
- Hidden Power [Dark] / Thief

91 Speed creeps Poliwhirl, and access to Drill Peck and Pursuit gives it great STAB. Haze is also incredible, as it then can get rid of Poliwhirl's Belly Drum.


Here are some sample teams as well:
You can load this directly into PS for all 4!

=== [gen2pu] Furret Offense, Estarossa ===

Seadra @ Leftovers
Ability: none
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Rain Dance
- Ice Beam

Delibird @ Miracle Berry
Ability: none
IVs: 22 HP / 26 Atk / 24 Def
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Spikes
- Thief

Clefairy @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Thunder Wave
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Moonlight

Murkrow @ Black Glasses
Ability: none
- Drill Peck
- Pursuit
- Haze
- Hidden Power [Dark]

Tangela
Ability: none
- Stun Spore
- Synthesis
- Giga Drain
- Thief

Furret @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Double-Edge
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk


=== [gen2pu] Noctowl Balance, Earthworm ===

Delibird
Ability: none
IVs: 22 HP / 26 Atk / 24 Def
- Spikes
- Thief
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Rock]

Noctowl @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Hypnosis
- Nightmare
- Return
- Toxic

Murkrow @ Black Glasses
Ability: none
- Drill Peck
- Pursuit
- Haze
- Hidden Power [Dark]

Venomoth @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Screech
- Sludge Bomb
- Psychic
- Giga Drain

Golbat @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Toxic
- Protect
- Wing Attack
- Giga Drain

Elekid @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Light Screen
- Toxic
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic

=== [gen2pu] Drowzee Balance, ReeceHughes ===

Elekid
Ability: none
- Thunder
- Thief
- Ice Punch
- Psychic

Delibird
Ability: none
IVs: 22 HP / 26 Atk / 24 Def
- Spikes
- Ice Beam
- Thief
- Hidden Power [Rock]

Drowzee @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Seismic Toss
- Thunder Wave
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Seadra @ Leftovers
Ability: none
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Haze

Furret @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Double-Edge
- Surf
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

Hitmonchan (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: none
IVs: 22 HP / 26 Atk / 24 Def
- High Jump Kick
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Rapid Spin
- Rest


=== [gen2pu] Hitmonchan Offense, Akir ===

Venomoth @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Stun Spore
- Sludge Bomb
- Psychic
- Giga Drain

Elekid @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch
- Light Screen
- Toxic

Hitmonchan (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: none
IVs: 22 HP / 26 Atk / 24 Def
- High Jump Kick
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Curse
- Rapid Spin

Gastly @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Thunder
- Psychic
- Explosion
- Destiny Bond

Poliwhirl @ Leftovers
Ability: none
Happiness: 0
- Lovely Kiss
- Belly Drum
- Frustration
- Earthquake

Delibird
Ability: none
IVs: 22 HP / 26 Atk / 24 Def
- Spikes
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Thief

  • Boom Offense: Onix and Grimer both have a good Explosion, and Gastly works as well.
  • Wobbuffet Spikes Stall: Set up Spikes and then pivot into Wobbuffet to force out mons that can't set up or Toxic you. Free phaze and you may get a Counter off. Pair it with Noctowl for a good Spdef wall that can also Whirlwind...maybe pair it with Sandstorm too.
  • Voltorb Hyper Offense: Set up Screens and explode. Go into setup mon, maybe Machoke since Vital Throw stops phazing? Interesting idea.


Have fun!
 
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MZ

And now for something completely different
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Moderator
Hello everyone. SM Sample Teams need a bit of an update, the meta's changed a fair amount since the final time they were updated. I'm discussing with council which teams ought to get removed (almost certainly Hail and my Leafeon team) but I'd also love any submissions people are willing to send this way. I'll even drop something of my own to start things off.
https://pokepast.es/317c5a36d4aa9350 this is a grasspam I made during PUPL that I think is pretty good, fairly easy to play with, definitely not Simisear weak at all
https://pokepast.es/fe3eae372b3726ce this is also something specs made during PUPL that he gave me permission to post here
 
Last edited:

LordST

Dormi Bene Duce
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
SM PU Sample Team Submission

Specs Drampa Bulky Offense

https://pokepast.es/5571e20ed6d2fdd0
This is a fairly straight forward team that has a few adaptions to some of the meta developments over last PUPL. A standard Jelli Muds core to cover your Fighting/Normal/Fires with Rindo Jelli there to eat Grass Knots from Simisear as well as Grass STABs from Torterra and Leafeon in order to get a Wisp off. Poisonvally covers Leafeon and Victreebel and gives you useful utility in a pivot move, absorbing tspikes for your defensive core, and hazard control. Multi Attack is used in place of the standard (probably shouldnt be standard anymore) Toxic or Poison Fang in order to actually check SD Fairyvally and CM Clefairy. Scarf Frostom is the Freeze Dry resist and Ground immune as well as the necessary Oricorio check. Specs Drampa and Z Fire Simisear form an incredibly potent offensive core that can easily take advantage of any passive mons such as Cryo, Bronzor, Clef, etc. Protect is a very useful tech on Simisear to protect from Kanga Fake Out and to scout vs scarf revenge killers such as Primeape or Snowslash. This team plays very simply and I believe is an accurate representation of where the meta is after last PUPL. It can struggle a bit vs Psychics, some less common offensive waters, and some flying types, but there are outs vs anything. I think this team could probably replace my current sample team as its a bit outdated.
 
My version of the VR

S:

:furret:Furret
:hitmonchan:Hitmonchan

S-:
:elekid:Elekid
:poliwhirl:Poliwhirl

A+:
:delibird:Delibird
:gastly:Gastly
:murkrow:Murkrow
:tangela:Tangela
A:
:abra:Abra
:cubone:Cubone
:onix:Onix
:sunflora:Sunflora
:venomoth:Venomoth
A-:
:beedrill:Beedrill
:hitmontop:Hitmontop
:noctowl:Noctowl
:seadra:Seadra


B+:
:flaaffy:Flaaffy
:machoke:Machoke
:mantine:Mantine
:parasect:Parasect
:togetic:Togetic
B:
:grimer: Grimer
:ivysaur:Ivysaur
:ponyta:Ponyta
:quilava:Quilava
:seaking:Seaking
:voltorb:Voltorb
B-:
:golbat:Golbat
:magcargo:Magcargo
:snubbull: Snubbull
:wobbuffet:Wobbuffet
C:
:ariados: Ariados
:charmeleon: Charmeleon
:doduo: Doduo
:magby: Magby
:staryu: Staryu
:tentacool: Tentacool
:wartortle: Wartortle







Blacklisted:
Poliwag
 

LordST

Dormi Bene Duce
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
ADV PU TEAM DUMP

Balance Breaker Marshtomp Bulky Offense
marshtomp.png
ivysaur.png
houndour.png
omanyte.png
duskull.png
minun.png

This was one of my favorite teams i built during ADV PU TOURNAMENT (and could probably be used as a sample team... hahah jk.... unless???). I wanted something that could effectively anti lead vs the two most common leadsin the meta, Minun and Furret, and still be very hard to switch in to. Lum 3ATK tect Marshtomp filled this role the most effectively out of anything. Protect lets Tomp crucially scout vs Banded Furret and other choiced mons such as Vibrava later in the game while its coverage + Lum makes it basically unwallable outside of Bayleef. The rest of the team is a pretty simple spikes balance core of Duskull Ivysaur Omanyte to win the war of attrition after Tomp has punched holes in the opposing core. Houndour is used as the pseudo Fire resist and an actual way to check Duskull while Minun rounds the team out as the revenge killer/momentum grabber it always is feat emergency QA for Yanma.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-1198627984
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-1193707812

SD Ivy Anti Lead Offense
ivysaur.png
omanyte.png
dragonair.png
houndour.png
masquerain.png
minun.png

This team is built around the simple concept of punching enough holes for DD Nair to easily sweep late game. Similarly to Marshtomp, SD Ivy is a great lead that takes advantage of the ever so common Minun lead. With max atk and Adamant it can also be quite hard to wall out, with many of the mons that resist Sludge Bomb being outsped and slept or just afraid to switch in fearing the grass move. This also makes Ivy great for crippling many of Dragonair's checks such as Mightyena and Duskull. Omanyte and Masquerain are the joint normal resists that provide spikes and a Ground resist respectively. Houndour is used again as a way to trap Duskull (which is made especially easy by an Ivy sleep) and as a pseudo Fire resist. Minun for Minun things but this time with cheeky Twave to potentially help facilitate Nair.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-1198630181
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-1191608475

Snorunt Spikes HO
snorunt.png
minun.png
grovyle.png
rhyhorn.png
furret.png
sealeo.png

A pretty simple HO team. Snorunt is a fun lead with Endure and Salac ensuring it will usually get at least one spike up. Grovyle is the main abuser of spikes here, as Sub Leech can be an absolute menace with spikes up. Minun does Minun things while also helping to be even more obnoxious with Twave. Rhyhorn helps here as the only normal Resist than can also take one HP ice from Minun. Silk Scarf Furret can be an incredibly deadly cleaner once spikes residual has built up and also gives the mandatory QA. Sealeo rounds out the team as the water resist fire resist that doesn't give up offensive momentum. This team requires very aggressive play to keep momentum up but is very fun to just click buttons with.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-1186570504-cqjxv05efqewfelw1p74rlaz22my89wpw

SD Pass Ledian
ivysaur.png
tentacool.png
duskull.png
ledian.png
dragonair.png
minun.png

This team is like the SD Ivy lead team but taken to an extreme; built with the same idea of creating the ideal sweeping conditions for DD Nair in mind. Since you need to use one teamslot on Ledian, the rest of the defensive core is severely compromised. Duskull + Tentacool is just about the best you can do with two slots. Tentacool is quite passive but at least covers nearly every water and fire, while Duskull is the best Normal/Ground resist the tier has on offer. Ledian can at least check Ivysaur and punish passive builds on its own so its not complete deadweight. Minun again rounds out the team with last slot Encore where BP would be which can sometimes be used as an opportunity for Ledian to start building a BP.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-1201638061

ToxTect Spam for Yanma
ivysaur.png
sealeo.png
dragonair.png
omanyte.png
yanma.png
minun.png


Protect is one of the best moves in this tier so building around some scummy ToxTect spam felt like a solid route to take. Ivy lead since it generally fares well vs most common leads and can scout vs Furret. Sealeo is the Fire/Water resist and rounds out the cancer core. Dragonair serves more as a breaker role here (hence HP Grass> HP Fighting) rather than the sweeper, and also the secondary Fire/Electric resist. Omanyte is the obligatory Normal resist and increases residual with its broken Spikes. Yanma pairs really really well with Tox Spam as it often needs to spam Sub to set up anyways. If you can land a Tox on your opponents priority early, Yanma can also just auto win late game. Minun does Minun things. I also wanted a real revenge killler outside of Yanma which is weak unboosted and also often doesn't want to reveal itself too early.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-1201633183


Enjoy! :blobuwu:
 
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Lilburr

boo
is a Tutoris a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
UU Leader
have I mentioned how much i LOVE BW PU OH MY GOD

here are some cool ass mons you should use

:bw/simisear:
Simisear @ Fire Gem
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]

NP Simisear is so damn good and it really doesn't have defensive counterplay at all. I originally had Grass Knot > HP Ice but wow HP Ice is so much nicer vs more popular stuff like Gabite and a lot of the stuff you'd want Knot for (like Graveler or whatever) gets nuked by Focus Blast anyway. Fire Gem is cool because if you use the standard Life Orb set you last maybe 2.4 turns total and that's not really great longevity at all, especially in a tier where Rocks/Spikes are borderline mandatory and removing hazards is nearly impossible. Use it I swear it's broken.

:bw/scraggy:
Scraggy @ Eviolite
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Crunch
- Rest

I don't need to explain this monster at this point. Fuck Beheeyem. That is all.

:bw/maractus:
Maractus @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 156 HP / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Spikes
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Synthesis

I don't remember exactly what the Speed on this set was for but it was for something. This thing is incredible; a lot of Maractus's issues as a Spiker stem from the fact that Natu sits on it, but with this set you can smack it really hard with HP Ice and it can't even Roost on you bc Giga Drain does more than 50% even on a min roll. Getting Spikes up is one of the easiest ways to trash virtually every team in this tier and it's an important way to break through stuff like Throh, and yeah you miss the bulk when trying to check like Simipour and stuff but if you can compensate elsewhere then this is absolutely incredible.

:bw/throh:
Throh @ Shed Shell
Ability: Guts
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Circle Throw
- Payback
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Gothorita is dumb.

:bw/kingler:
Kingler @ Life Orb
Ability: Shell Armor / Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Crabhammer
- Superpower
- Agility

This thing is honestly super broken lowkey. Nothing can handle Crabhammers, like legit nothing, everything that can hope to take one at +2 is completely nuked by Superpower bar like, Frillish??? So it's pretty strong. I used it on Screens featuring the god setter Ledian which was really fun but I'm sure there's a far more optimal way to build it. Big danger.

:bw/gothorita: :bw/beheeyem:
Please ban them.

I'm gonna make like a TON of BW posts over the next few weeks, I have so much to say about what I believe to be the correct approach to the tier which addresses why so many people dislike it/find it unbalanced when in reality it's one of the most creative and enjoyable PU tiers there is. Thank you for reading my 3-hour-sleep thoughts, please play this tier PLEASE play it dude it's so much fun
 
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Ereshkigal

Kur Kigal Irkalla !!!
is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
:bw/kingler:
Kingler @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Crabhammer
- Superpower
- Agility

This thing is honestly super broken lowkey. Nothing can handle Crabhammers, like legit nothing, everything that can hope to take one at +2 is completely nuked by Superpower bar like, Frillish??? So it's pretty strong. I used it on Screens featuring the god setter Ledian which was really fun but I'm sure there's a far more optimal way to build it. Big danger.
This set sure sounds cool, but wouldn't this set benefit more of shell armor or hyper cutter since I'm pretty sure nothing is boosted by sheer force on this set. I think shell armor benefits more from screens but i could see hyper cutter as a viable option if you're to play this outside of veil. Not 100% sure about that last statement tho
 

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