Rayquaza Revamp (0/3)

polop

Would you look at the time?
is a Contributor Alumnus
Ready for QC checks! This IS PENDING TO BE A FULL ANALYSIS, I SHALL TALK TO IBOJANGLES ON IRC when I can.This is POST V-Create.

Simply Outrageous
OK BARRY4EVER GETS CREDIT FOR MOST OF THIS SINCE HE WAS AUTHOR OF THE Original Analysis which is located here.
[Overview]

<p>Say hello to the deadliest sweeper and wallbreaker of DPP Ubers. Rayquaza arrives at the onset of the new generation to reclaim its crown as the most feared sweeper. Base 150 attacking stats make sure nothing can really wall it, and access to Dragon Dance and Swords Dance (two of the best boosting moves in the game) make Rayquaza even more threatening. Rayquaza has a huge movepool, which includes the strongest priority move in the game: ExtremeSpeed. Air Lock is a fantastic ability which allows Rayquaza to negate all types of weather and act as an excellent check to the horde of Pokemon who rely on it to sweep. Rayquaza does have its flaws; a weakness to Stealth Rocks and relatively thin defenses make it rather hard to switch in, and a sub-par base 95 Speed doesn't exactly help it sweep any better either. Regardless, Rayquaza still remains one of the most threatening sweepers in the Uber tier, and can demolish teams in a heartbeat if given the chance.</p>

[SET]
name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Earthquake / Stone Edge
move 4: Overheat / ExtremeSpeed
item: Life Orb
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Rayquaza is an extremely powerful sweeper and can devastate entire teams with just one turn of setup. After a single Dragon Dance, Rayquaza's Attack skyrockets to 598 while its Speed rests at an impressive 462, which gets the jump on every unboosted Pokemon in the game bar Deoxys-S and Ninjask. Outrage and Earthquake complement each other nicely, hitting nearly every single Pokemon in the tier for at least neutral damage. The choice of the last move, depends largely upon what you want Rayquaza to do. If Steel-types like Skarmory and Forretress give Rayquaza trouble, then Overheat can be used to roast them. ExtremeSpeed, on the other hand, allows Rayquaza to take down weakened foes who are faster than Rayquaza, such as Scarf Palkia and Scarf Garchomp.</p>

<p>Since Jolly Rayquaza can't always OHKO Lugia with Outrage, Stone Edge can be used over Earthquake to give it just a little more edge in power. An Adamant nature is also viable to increase the damage output, but it leaves Rayquaza prone to being revenge killed by Scarf Dialga. Also, Rayquaza should always run ExtremeSpeed while running Adamant or any other Attack-boosting nature) to beat Deoxys-A.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Rayquaza can use Haban Berry over Life Orb . Like most other sweepers, Rayquaza prefers entry hazards to be set up. Substitute can be used to beat Scarf Palkia who switch in on Dragon Dance. Stealth Rock is extremely useful, since it allows Rayquaza to OHKO Lugia. Forretress and Deoxys-S can set up entry hazards with ease. Forretress deserves a special mention, since it has good synergy with Rayquaza and can spin away enemy entry hazards. Paralysis support is also advised, since it makes Scarf users such as Palkia unable to revenge kill Rayquaza. Lead Kyogre can fulfill this role well and also acts as a good Palkia lure.</p>

<p> Due to its frailty, Rayquaza is especially prone to revenge killing by Scarf users like Zekrom, Reshiram, Kyogre and especially Palkia, who can even revenge Rayquaza at +1 Speed. Wobbuffet is an excellent partner to Rayquaza to help it set up, since it can trap and eliminate Scarf users. Although Rayquaza is near unstoppable after a Dragon Dance, certain super bulky walls can live an Outrage and KO Rayquaza in return. Defensive Groudon takes 59.4% - 70% from Jolly Life Orb Rayquaza's Outrage and can then use Stone Edge to do 63% - 74.1%, a OHKO factoring in Life Orb recoil and Stealth Rock damage. Bold Lugia with maximum defense investment can always survive an Outrage even after factoring in Stealth Rock damage, taking 61.3% - 72.1%. Lugia can easily KO Rayquaza with Ice Beam factoring in Stealth Rock damage. Most Kyogre variants make good team mates with Rayquaza thanks its ability to check Support Groudon. Thanks to Air Lock, the rain which Kyogre brings does not gimp Overheat's power. Wobbuffet can even use Encore and Safeguard to create an opening for Rayquaza to set up. It should be noted that Outrage is not a move to be lightly used. Even at +1 Attack, most Steel-types such as Steel Arceus and Ferrothorn can live an Outrage and KO Rayquaza back in return. Steel Arceus can just burn Rayquaza with Will-O-Wisp and phaze it out with Roar. Bold Lugia with near maximum defense investment is also a thorn in Rayquaza's side. It can always survive a +1 Outrage even after factoring in Stealth Rock damage while Ice Beam will always OHKO Rayquaza factoring in Stealth Rock. Scizor makes a good teammate with its STAB U-turn and nifty STAB Bullet Punch. Tickle Wobbuffet and Pursuit Scizor can easily eliminate any pesky Lugia paving the way for Rayqauza to sweep. The infamous Double Dance strategy can be used with Salamence, thanks to Salamence being able to KO or severely weaken most of Rayquaza's checks, and vice versa, allowing for a cleaner sweep.</p>

Changes
  • Warn against V-Create in AC

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: ExtremeSpeed
move 3: Dragon Claw / Waterfall
move 4: Earthquake / Overheat
item: Life Orb
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Rayquaza is often seen boosting its Attack and Speed by Dragon Dance, but it is capable of utilizing Swords Dance to double its Attack. After a Swords Dance, Rayquaza reaches a ground-breaking 876 Attack. Although Rayquaza's meager base 95 Speed may seem rather underwhelming, fear not because Rayquaza gets ExtremeSpeed, which allows it to bypass its low Speed and hit many foes first anyway. After just one Swords Dance, Rayquaza can OHKO a significant part of the metagame with ExtremeSpeed, given Stealth Rock support. Darkrai is always OHKOed by a +2 ExtremeSpeed factoring in Stealth Rock damage, while offensive Mewtwo and Choice Scarf Palkia are also prone to being OHKOed with Stealth Rock. Although Swords Dance Rayquaza gets stiff competition from Swords Dance Normal Arceus who has more bulk, recovery and a more powerful STAB priority move, Rayquaza still has a few perks over the Alpha Pokemon. Rayquaza's base Attack is 30 points greater than Arceus's, is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes and has a fantastic STAB-type in Dragon. Swords Dance Rayquaza can also beat Giratina-O easily, which is something Extreme Killer Arceus can only hope of doing.</p>

<p>Dragon Claw is the primary STAB move. After a Swords Dance, it will always OHKO Giratina, and do insane amounts of damage to anything not resisting it. Waterfall can be used over Dragon Claw if Groudon is a problem though. Assuming Rayquaza is using an Adamant nature, a +2 Waterfall does a whopping 77.7% - 91.6% to the standard supporter. With Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes, it has a fairly high chance to OHKO. Earthquake helps Rayquaza hit Steel-types such as Steel Arceus, Dialga, and Metagross who could otherwise eat ExtremeSpeeds and Dragon Claws all day. Overheat makes short work of any Forretress or Ferrothorn hoping to wall Rayquaza.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>A Jolly nature is especially useful this generation with the the rise of the two new Dragon-types, Zekrom and Reshiram. Both usually run max Speed, and can outpace and OHKO Rayquaza with their powerful Dragon-type attacks if Rayquaza is running an Adamant nature. While using Jolly, running an alternate EV spread of 34 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 216 Spe is an option.</p>

<p>Entry hazard support is crucial for Swords Dance Rayquaza. Stealth Rock is near mandatory, since it allows Rayquaza to always OHKO Darkrai with a +2 ExtremeSpeed. Choice Scarf Palkia and offensive Mewtwo also have a high chance of being OHKOed with Stealth Rock down. Skarmory, Deoxys-S, Forretress, and Groudon can all set up hazards reliably. Forretress and Deoxys-S can also prevent hazards with either Rapid Spin or a fast Taunt, respectively. Wobbuffet can eliminate most of Rayquaza's checks; Tickle Wobbuffet paired with a Pursuit user can even take down Lugia. Since Rayquaza really hates faster Steel-types such as Steel Arceus since it resists both its primary moves and can burn it with Will-O-Wisp. Groudon is a great partner for Rayquaza since it can set up Stealth Rock reliably well and also beat the numerous Steel-types such as Steel Arceus, Ferrothorn (needs Fire Punch or Fire Blast), and Jirachi. Body Slam Jirachi can switch in on most of Rayquaza's checks. It can then use Body Slam to paralyze and make them incapable of checking Rayquaza. Lucario also works in a similar way as compared to Jirachi. Jirachi can also take Dragon-type hits for Rayquaza, while Rayquaza can switch into any Ground-type move aimed at Jirachi.</p>

Changes
  • Slashing V-Create over Overheat and EQ, mentioning EQ in AC.
  • Removing Waterfall slash

[SET]
name: Mixed Attacker
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: ExtremeSpeed
move 4: Outrage / Dragon Tail / Brick Break
item: Life Orb / Lum Berry / Focus Sash
nature: Hasty / Naive
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Mixed Rayquaza is one of the most powerful wallbreakers in the entire Uber tier. Base 150 Attack and Special Attack go a long way in helping Rayquaza pick walls apart. This set attempts to lure in and obliterate usual Rayquaza switch-ins with its powerful special attacks. A Draco Meteor coming off 399 Special Attack will severely dent anything not resisting it, including Groudon and Lugia, both of which are cleanly 2HKOed after Stealth Rock. Any Steel-types courageous enough to face a Draco Meteor are swiftly barbecued by a Fire Blast. ExtremeSpeed allows Rayquaza to take down weakened Pokemon, and does decent damage even without investment. Outrage gives Rayquaza a powerful physical STAB move while Dragon Tail allows Rayquaza to scout any switch-ins. Brick Break can be used to punch holes in the pink blobs, Blissey and Chansey. This set can be used as an effective offensive lead to put immediate pressure on the oppenent. While being used as a lead, Lum Berry is a very useful item since it allows Rayquaza to check any Darkrai hoping to set up on it. Focus Sash helps Rayquaza survive super effective hits which would normally OHKO it, but is near useless mid-game. However, Life Orb is by far the most useful item, as it allows Rayquaza to significantly increase its damage output.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>As for the choice of nature, both Naive and Hasty are viable. However, Hasty is recommended since special attacks are far more common in Ubers. Also, a Speed-boosting nature helps Rayquaza outspeed all Pokemon with base 90 Speed.</p>

<p>Since mixed Rayquaza lacks the sheer offensive power of Dragon Dance or Swords Dance Rayquaza, entry hazards go a long way in helping Rayquaza break down walls. Pokemon such as Forretress and Deoxys-S are both adept at setting up Stealth Rock. It must be noted that Mixed Rayquaza is not intended to be used as a sweeper, rather it paves the way for another sweeper by removing or weakening its checks with its powerful Draco Meteors and Outrages. Lucario is an amazing partner because of the great synergy it shares with Rayquaza, and the fact that Rayquaza lures in and KOs both Groudon and Lugia, two of Lucario's greatest counters. Bulk Up Dialga makes a great partner too, since it can plow though teams once Groudon is gone. Mixed Rayquaza can utilize the Double Dragon strategy quite effectively with Dragon Dance Salamence or Choice Band Garchomp. Once Rayquaza has killed or sufficiently weakened dedicated walls such as Groudon and Lugia, Salamence or Garchomp can cleave through the rest of the team with their brute strength. However, this strategy isn't lightly adopted, since it makes the team doubly weak to Dragon- and Ice-type attacks. Scarf Jirachi and Terrakion are both good teammates, since they cover Rayquaza's weaknesses while Rayquaza can in return eliminate their checks.</p>
Changes
  • Removing Lum Berry and Focus Sash
  • V-Create > Outrage and Dragon Tail.
--------------------------- Line seperates TR's sets and Barry4ever's sets
[SET]
name: Mixed Dancer
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Dragon Dance
move 3: Outrage
move 4: Earthquake / Fire Blast
item: Life Orb
nature: Mild
EVs: 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe

[Set Comments]

<p>Similar to Salamence's old set in DPP, this Rayquaza set utilizes a lot of surprise factor to eliminate its usual counters. Unlike the Mixed set, this Rayquaza is easily able to sweep on its own, even after using Draco Meteor. Partnering it with Salamence is not crucial to this set's usefulness though. The biggest differences between this set and the standard Dragon Dance set are obviously Draco Meteor and the different EV spread.</p>

<p>Most people tend to overlook Rayquaza's massive Special Attack stat, which allows it to easily bash through its usual counters. Draco Meteor will easily OHKO Support Groudon, while even Lugia takes a massive 57.2% - 67.8%, which will 2HKO with Stealth Rock damage. This not only gives Rayquaza a chance to sweep, but also paves the way for other physical sweepers to sweep with Groudon out of the way. Draco Meteor tears off 69.8% - 82.4% from Support Arceus, taking it out with Spikes and Stealth Rock support. Other Arceus can be taken out as well. A boosted Outrage will still OHKO Arceus with little prior damage, so choose carefully when deciding whether to boost up or just attack right away against Arceus.</p>

<p>The idea of using this set is to Dragon Dance up as Groudon or another physical wall switches in and go straight for the OHKO. With this strategy, you can easily sweep with Rayquaza should the opponent lack another check to it. Most teams do not carry extra checks to Rayquaza as there are really few of them. Outrage is Rayquaza's physical move of choice. Even with few Attack EVs, Rayquaza's Outrage is still incredibly powerful, capable of 2HKOing even the bulkiest Kyogre when unboosted. Ho-Oh is easily OHKOed after Stealth Rock by both Draco Meteor or Outrage. Even if Stealth Rock is not up, Rayquaza can easily smash Ho-Oh with a +1 Outrage, something the standard Mixed Rayquaza cannot do.</p>

<p>The choice of Fire Blast or Earthquake is totally up to your team's preferences. Fire Blast utilizes this set's focus on Special Attack EVs, and OHKOes Skarmory, Forretress (provided Sturdy is broken), Ferrothorn, Metagross, and Scizor. Earthquake on the other hand is boosted by Dragon Dance and smashes Dialga, Jirachi, and Heatran. Unfortunately, Rayquaza cannot carry five moves, so pick the one that suits your team best.</p>

[Additional Comments]

<p>This set greatly enjoys entry hazards support, as it is the only way Rayquaza can break through Lugia. Forretress and Deoxys-S make fantastic partners for this reason, and Forretress can also spin away entry hazards. Swords Dance Arceus is also incredibly annoying, as Extremespeed will tear a chunk out of Rayquaza's health. Packing a check to it, such as Terrakion, is important for this set to function at its best, although Draco Meteor will likely OHKO Offensive Arceus after just Stealth Rock alone. Scizor's Bullet Punch can also make Rayquaza sad, but Fire Blast OHKOes Scizor 100% of the time even after using Draco Meteor once.</p>

<p>The reason for using a Rash or Mild nature on this set is to OHKO Groudon 100% of the time after just Stealth Rock damage. Rayquaza sadly fails to do that with a Hasty or Naive nature. Groudon will likely switch in on Rayquaza early on the match, so this is your best opportunity to surprise and take it. The Special Attack EVs are crucial for Rayquaza to OHKO Groudon and stands a chance of KOing Offensive Arceus after Stealth Rock damage. Attack EVs are just leftover EVs, and you can just max out Speed if you do not mind a little less powerful Outrage or Earthquake if you are using it. The Speed EVs allow Rayquaza to outspeed everything up to a neutral nature Deoxys-A and neutral nature Choice Scarf Pokemon with base 90 Speed at +1 Speed. Darkrai is a great partner for this set to take out Lugia, while Rayquaza demolishes Ho-Oh and Groudon. Rayquaza can also OHKO potential Scarf Kyogre switch-ins with Draco Meteor. This set can just fire off powerful Draco Meteors right away instead of having to set up like the standard Dragon Dance set. The major drawback of using this set is that Timid Scarf Dialga, Kyogre, and Reshiram can outspeed this set-even at +1 and KO you first.</p>

Changes:
  • None for now
-----------------------Line seperates TR's Sets and new stuff
[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Outrage
move 2: Earthquake / Dragon Claw
move 3: ExtremeSpeed
move 4: V-Create
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def

Why it deserves to be on site:
  • Really powerful, reaches a enormous attack stat of 657.
  • Only two true competitors, Garchomp and Zekrom
  • Garchomp has lower attack stat, no ground-immunity, and no ExtremeSpeed
  • Zekrom's movepool is terribad, lacks EQ (lol) and ExtremeSpeed, base 95 speed > base 90. Gets V-Create to OHKO ferrotrolls, also Ground-immune again.
  • Lures in stuff like Lugia and Groudon that get 2HKOed by Outrage (well max def. Groudon has an 81.66% chance but thats reliable!) without hazards :P. Ferrotroll gets 2HKOed after taking 2 layers of spikes.
  • Also annoys stall teams :D. Immunity to EQ and Spikes make it able to switch in and out a pretty easily.

Set Comments:
  • Outrage hits terribly hard from Ray's 150 base attack stat, and its power is further bolstered by CB.
  • Earthquake and V-Create are your options to hit Steels, former pairs VERY nicely with Outrage giving Rayquaze the ability to hit everything neutrally barring Skarmory and Shedinja. Latter hits every steel barring Heatran neutrally or super effectively.
  • ExtremeSpeed is for picking off weakened things.
  • You can use both V-Create and EQ for perfect coverage. Dragon Claw however gives the ability to use a STAB Dragon-type move that you don't lock yourself into.
  • Adamant gives you A LOT of 2HKOes (lugia, Groudon, etc.) but doesn't let you outspeed + natured base 90s. Jolly doesn't do some of those things but hazards can make up for the power reduction.

Additional Comments:
  • Enjoys Rapid Spin / Magic Bounce support to remove Rocks so that way it can switch in and out without taking that residual damage.
  • Likes to be on teams that have issues with rain stall or Classic stall as it not only crushes all spin blockers (Arceus-ghost is an exception still takes a hefty 80% from adamant Outrage), IT BREAKS FERROTROLL, Gira-a, and Lugia! AKA DROWN ALL and Classic Stall pokes. Also OHKOes Kyogre that like to be trolls with Outrage.
  • Enjoys Scizor and Jirachi support. Both are steels to absorb dragon-type moves, and get U-turn! Jirachi can pass wishes too.
  • SPECS OGRE LOVES THIS GUY. Specs Thunder / Ice Beam / Water Spout + CB Extemespeed OHKO standard Scarf Palkia. Also Rayquaza can remove Ferrothorn, Ludicolo, and Gastrodon lacking Ice Beam. Specs Spout / Surf / Hydro Pump shoves a lot of stuff into Extremespeed range.
  • Fire Blast is an option but lacks the power to OHKO Specially Defensive Skarmory. Forretress and Ferrothorn are different stories though.
  • Lastly, Wobba gets rid of scarfed Dragons, so Rayquaza can more freely spam Outrage.
  • Add Groudon and Lugia calcs here.

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf *** Credit to Jibaku
move 1: V-Create
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Draco Meteor
move 4: Earthquake / ExtremeSpeed
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Hasty
evs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def

Why it deserves to be on site:
  • Capable of revenging stuff like Kingdra and friends with Chlorophyl / Swift Swim (advantages over other random scarfers), can also clean late game if things are weakened with a powerful STAB Outrage.
  • Outspeeds all base 90s and can revenge scarfed ones.
  • Hits on Ubers weaker physical side.
  • Garchomp is its only competitor for this role, lacks V-Create, ability to outspeed kindgra, and ludicolo, and Shiftry, and Venusaur, and Excadril and... (insert other competitive pokes with weather speed abilities).

Set Comments:
  • Outrage is your mandatory dragon STAB move (has tons of power!), but its a troll with confusion HAX! Ray is a hit-and-run poke though in this case, so it doesn't matter too much.
  • Draco Meteor is strong, doesn't lock Ray, and keeps the potenial to OHKO stuff like Darkrai and Skymin.
  • EQ is > ExtremeSpeed if you hate Dialga and think Scarf + Espeed is superflous.
  • ExtremeSpeed trolls Scarfkia, AND YOU HIT EXKILLER BEFORE IT HITS YOU :D YAY?
  • V-Create murders Skarm and steel friends not named Heatran.

Additional Comments:
  • Likes hazards for cleaning late game.
  • Only Revenge Killer that can revenge threats with Chlorophyll and swift swim, Scarf Kia and Scarfchomp have nothing on this :P.
  • Perfers to be used on HO teams since it keeps up that offensive pressure.
  • Needs more testing before I can type up more stuff.

[Other Options]
  • Mention Focus Sash Mixed lead

Checks and Counters:
  • No Counters too much stuff 2HKOed.
  • Barry's stuff <p>The best way to tackle Rayquaza is by revenge killing it. Scarf users such as Palkia, Terrakion, Mewtwo, Dakrai, Jirachi, and Garchomp can all check the Dragon Dance set and take out Rayquaza easily due to its frailty. Meanwhile, Terrakion, Scarf Dialga and Jirachi are capable of revenge killing the Swords Dance set. Palkia, Garchomp, and Salamence can also revenge kill most Rayquaza sets other than the Dragon Dance set. However, they take a hefty amount of damage from a boosted ExtremeSpeed. Lugia can check the Swords Dance set quite well, as it can outspeed it, set up Reflect, and threaten a KO with Ice Beam. Support Groudon also does a decent job at checking Rayquaza, and can phaze it away with Dragon Tail, doing a decent chunk of damage. Skarmory can also handle Dragon Dance and Swords Dance Rayquaza if they lack Overheat. Pokemon packing powerful priority like Scizor and Arceus can KO Rayquaza without any worries.</p>

Changes:
  • Mention how Lugia and Groudon can't switch into CB
  • Mention Scarf Rayquaza trolling everything that lacks a scarf and scarf Dialga.
  • Remove that missclick
 

Furai

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Change the title to Rayquaza (Choice Band).

And god no, why is V-create only a slash? It's what gives CBQuaza his main niche. Slash Dragon Claw with Outrage, as all the rest are mandatory.
 

polop

Would you look at the time?
is a Contributor Alumnus
I'll change the title to Choice Band but the idea was to annoy QC to post the change that way I'd now they read it -_-.

NO V-CREATE IS OVERATED. Rayquaza had a CB niche before BW and before V-Create too :(. Dragon Claw lets it kill something without locking itself and confusing itself, which can be really important. The brutal power of Outrage grants way too many 2HKOes to be ignored. While the two technically do have equal base power, the speed drop prevents Rayquaza from Outraging the likes of Lugia and Groudon again to 2HKO before they OHKO the thing with Stone Edge or Ice Beam (Groudon needs an Adamant nature + LO to OHKO Rayquaza with Stone Edge of all things lol pre-defense drop lol) .

Don't fall under V-Creates influence Furai!
 

Furai

we will become who we are meant to be
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Tell me then bro, if CBQuaza had a niche before V-create - why did you post it just now eh? :P

V-create is so brutal and powerful, iirc it can 2HKO Kyogre.
 

polop

Would you look at the time?
is a Contributor Alumnus
Tell me then bro, if CBQuaza had a niche before V-create - why did you post it just now eh? :P

V-create is so brutal and powerful, iirc it can 2HKO Kyogre.
I just realized CB Ray didn't have a set (looked at the analysis to consider updating it), and saw that the reasons why TR and TMON moved it to OO earlier was because it was outclassed by Garchomp and Zekrom (not the case if you read the skeleton). IF ONLY I HAD A BETTER GMT TO PROVE THEM WRONG (but probs still get pwned by TR in the process):(.

If V-Create DOES get continuous support then I'll move Dclaw out. The 2HKO doesn't matter honestly since it won't be able to attack twice due to the speed drop. Besides WHY V-CREATE THE SWITCH IN WHEN YOU CAN OUTRAGE IT TO OHKO (evilly laughs?).
 

destinyunknown

Banned deucer.
V-Create shouldn't be a slash, but a main move. Its what really differenciates rayquaza from other CB users in the Uber tier, like saying, Zekrom and Garchomp (both of which you mention as worse than CB rayquaza) Dragon Claw is unappealing, i would even slash it with earthquake (v-create hits steel hard already)
 

Tomahawk

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V-Create is a way better option than Earthquake, as it hits almost every Steel-type much harder (Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Forretress, Scizor, Bronzong, Metagross). The only reason to use Earthquake is Heatran. I would slash Earthquake with Dragon Claw in the last slot.
 

polop

Would you look at the time?
is a Contributor Alumnus
V-Create shouldn't be a slash. Its what really differenciates rayquaza from other CB users in the Uber tier, like saying, Zekrom and Garchomp (both of which you mention as worse than CB rayquaza) Dragon Claw is unappealing, i would even slash it with earthquake (v-create hits steel hard already)
I never said it completely outclasses them, I just said it has a few noteworthy advantages over its competition... getting walled by heatran isn't fun at all for a CB user anyway.

V-Create is a way better option than Earthquake, as it hits almost every Steel-type much harder (Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Forretress, Scizor, Bronzong, Metagross). The only reason to use Earthquake is Heatran. I would slash Earthquake with Dragon Claw in the last slot.
V-Create's stat drops negate the benefits of hitting those pokemon super effectively. It grants a plethora of 2HKOes but WHATS THE POINT IF YOU DON'T OUTSPEED LATER ANYWAY. Victini can use it just because it can utilize Trick Room (benefits with V-Create) and Choice Scarf (which negates the speed drop of 1 V-Create).

Besides the latter 3 you mentioned are less common then heatran iirc. SINCE V-CREATE IS GETTING SO MUCH SUPPORT (and I think I'm just being mean now), I'll make it the first slash before Dragon Claw and slash it with EQ. This means I have to redo set comments -_-.
 

destinyunknown

Banned deucer.
But bro, is a CB set, so you are supposed to be using a hit-and-run strategy. And considering how many Fire resists are in ubers, you are pretty much killing a poke and then switching while the opponent switchs their dragon or water type on.

And for ''stat'' matter, CB Victini is used too fpalm.
 

polop

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is a Contributor Alumnus
But bro, is a CB set, so you are supposed to be using a hit-and-run strategy. And considering how many Fire resists are in ubers, you are pretty much killing a poke and then switching while the opponent switchs their dragon or water type on.

And for ''stat'' matter, CB Victini is used too fpalm.
Actually the idea of this set it to lure in its counters like Lugia and Groudon and 2HKO them with an Outrage. This CANNOT be achieved with V-Create since you can't 2HKO due to the fact your speed is lowered and your forced to switch out or be killed. If they aren't in the match you just spam Outrage / Dragon Claw and break other walls. V-Create just HAPPENS to provide good coverage for hitting steels and is slightly superior to Overheat.

Wait so are you supporting or not supporting V-Create -_-? You just said there are so many Fire resists so should I move back to slashing it with just Dragon Claw and give EQ no slashes?

CB Victini gets Sun boosts and STAB to take advantage of, Rayquaza can take advantage of neither, so Victini can do the job like a hit-and-run poke. Besides Outrage = V-Create in terms of base power except Outrage doesn't make you a sitting duck. Outrage is also better coverage :P.
 

New World Order

Licks Toads
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Here let me show you something.

| 38 | Heatran | 703 | 3.004% | 564 | 2.967% |

You literally have less than a 3% chance of seeing Heatran in a game. Which means V-Create is better about 97% of the time. Earthquake is most certainly not worth a slash alongside V-Create. Outrage, Extremespeed, and V-Create are the most vital moves on this set. Earthquake and Dragon Claw are filler moves at best, even Dragon Claw is only used like once or twice per game to test the waters.

With regards to the Speed and Defense drops, CB Rayquaza is meant to be a hit and run Pokemon anyways. The Pokemon that you want Rayquaza to be able to outspeed, you hit with Outrage, not V-Create. The targets of V-Create are: Ferrothorn, Forretress, Scizor, Excadrill, Skarmory, Bronzong, Jirachi, Metagross. The only Pokemon that can outspeed a -1 Rayquaza are Excadrill and Jirachi, both of whom are OHKOed, so they can't actually switch in and take advantage of the Speed drop unless you sacrifice a Pokemon, in which case, Rayquaza grabs a KO, and has done its job. The Defense drops honestly don't even matter, since Rayquaza's job is to dish out hits, not tank hits.

The fact that everyone except you feels that V-Create deserves its own slot should be indication that it's worth its own slot. Hell, you don't even have V-Create as a primary slash, even though it outclasses Earthquake. The rest of the skeleton looks god, so don't ruin it for yourself with that stubborn attitude.
 
V-Create is technically not legal on Rayquaza till February 10th, so it shouldn't be in the analysis till that date.
 

polop

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is a Contributor Alumnus
Here let me show you something.

| 38 | Heatran | 703 | 3.004% | 564 | 2.967% |

You literally have less than a 3% chance of seeing Heatran in a game. Which means V-Create is better about 97% of the time. Earthquake is most certainly not worth a slash alongside V-Create. Outrage, Extremespeed, and V-Create are the most vital moves on this set. Earthquake and Dragon Claw are filler moves at best, even Dragon Claw is only used like once or twice per game to test the waters.

With regards to the Speed and Defense drops, CB Rayquaza is meant to be a hit and run Pokemon anyways. The Pokemon that you want Rayquaza to be able to outspeed, you hit with Outrage, not V-Create. The targets of V-Create are: Ferrothorn, Forretress, Scizor, Excadrill, Skarmory, Bronzong, Jirachi, Metagross. The only Pokemon that can outspeed a -1 Rayquaza are Excadrill and Jirachi, both of whom are OHKOed, so they can't actually switch in and take advantage of the Speed drop unless you sacrifice a Pokemon, in which case, Rayquaza grabs a KO, and has done its job. The Defense drops honestly don't even matter, since Rayquaza's job is to dish out hits, not tank hits.
RAYQUAZA IS NOT A HIT + RUN POKEMON. It can be one if you used Dragon Claw but that's why its so important. Rayquaza is supposed to lure in the likes of Lugia (one of its most common switch ins) and Groudon and obliterate it for a 2HKO with an Outrage. The thing is you can use EQ or V-Create if you predict a switch-in to score major damage on it. The problem is if you predict wrongly and lets say Groudon comes in to absorb the V-Create your screwed even more then if you picked EQ. There is NO steel-type that wants to stay in on a Rayquaza that switched into it (maybe Ferro with protect shenanigans but -_-), but fine I'll move V-create and give it its own thing on move 4 and slash Dragon Claw with EQ.

V-Create is technically not legal on Rayquaza till February 10th, so it shouldn't be in the analysis till that date.
This may result in odd issues... how about I just work on the analysis with that and its uploaded on February 10th or later date?

That or I could just remove V-Create completely, but then that would mean future updates annoying people :(.
 

shrang

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Yeah, you can hold off the analysis until V-Create is released, I'm afraid. The only thing I see that gives CB Ray a niche without V-Create in Ubers is the fact that he is the only viable Dragon-type that has access to ExtremeSpeed (Dragonite isn't good enough), which with Arceus around, I see no point in using (Silk Scarf ExtremeSpeed from Arceus does more than a CB ExtremeSpeed from Ray).
 

polop

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Yeah, you can hold off the analysis until V-Create is released, I'm afraid. The only thing I see that gives CB Ray a niche without V-Create in Ubers is the fact that he is the only viable Dragon-type that has access to ExtremeSpeed (Dragonite isn't good enough), which with Arceus around, I see no point in using (Silk Scarf ExtremeSpeed from Arceus does more than a CB ExtremeSpeed from Ray).
Am I the only person that used CB Ray pre V-Create announcement? CB Ray's ability to lure in Lugia and Groudon and 2HKO both of them without hazards is priceless. THAT IS ITS NICHE. Garchomp can't do that since CB chomp doesn't have strong enough attacks, and Zekrom's Outrage isn't luring in anything (also lacks EQ and a plethora of coverage moves, did I mention its walled by Dugtrio if it goes CB Electric move?). Just try Overheat or Dragon Claw over V-Create and you won't be dissapointed when testing.

When you predict a steel switch in EQ or Overheat. If there's a Palkia or something away you can revenge kill it later with wobba or something, so don't spam Outrage and use Dragon Claw unless you feel lucky with 2-turn rages.

Silk Scarf Arceus is a sweeper, CB Rayquaza is a wall breaker, I can't see why your comparing both. If you wanted to compare both a bit more fairly CB Rayquaza trolls Gira-a and Skarmory if it has Overheat in any weather (unlike Arceus who needs Sun).

Look at why it's deserves to be on site for more information to why it isn't outclassed. ALSO PLEASE DO NOT TELL SOMEONE YOUR USING A CB RAYQUAZA WHEN YOUR TESTING IT. THAT COMPLETELY DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF LURING IN LUGIA (also if it switches in to it with Rocks up its screwed, can't stay or get koed, switch out and die from rocks and something else takes a massive Outrage to the face) AND GROUDON *cough thats what they did when testing it last time.

I'll convert the analysis into one pre V-Create for now. If QC really think it needs V-Create approve it on the 10th of February and not now.

I'd use remove adamant, outspeeding non-scarf reshiram/zekrom/kyogre is huge.
I'm not sure if you meant remove Admant or use it pi face :( sorry.

If you meant remove Adamant then, the thing is I just never see Timid Max Speed Reshiram, Zekrom, or Kyogre any more. The power gained in Adamant is immense too (lots of 2HKOes). I could just leave both slashed and elaborate the pros and cons of natures in AC though. I just don't know though, they didn't slash timid for Specs Ogre (which is like the most infamous wall breaker ever) but Ray has a base 95 speed :(. Too complicated to decide if you ask me.
 
Mr. LOL, I think it's a shame that you're being so stubborn about all this, even in the face of many arguments better than your own... You say that V-Create is overrated even though it gives Rayquaza a powerful Steel-killing niche that the otherwise-superior CB Zekrom and CB Garchomp can only be envious of. You attest to the downsides of V-Create's stat drops, even though people are constantly reminding you that this is okay, it is a Choice Band set. You repeatedly say that Rayquaza is not a hit-and-run Pokemon, yet you're writing a Choice Band set-- Choice Band being an inherently hit-and-run item.

I think Shrang said it best as to why Rayray needs V-Create.
Yeah, you can hold off the analysis until V-Create is released, I'm afraid. The only thing I see that gives CB Ray a niche without V-Create in Ubers is the fact that he is the only viable Dragon-type that has access to ExtremeSpeed (Dragonite isn't good enough), which with Arceus around, I see no point in using (Silk Scarf ExtremeSpeed from Arceus does more than a CB ExtremeSpeed from Ray).
Aside from V-Create, Extremespeed is the only thing that differentiates Rayquaza from the other CB Uber-Dragons; between Extremekiller Arceus, CBChomp, and CB Zekrom, non-V-Create Rayquaza doesn't have much of a niche. Granted, he's not bad, but most people would rather use the faster
Garchomp or the tankier Zekrom who's slower than Ray, but actually gets a second useful STAB.

Ray's combination of Outrage+Extremespeed+V-Create is what gives it a niche in terms of CB sets. Its main purpose is to kill things with Outrage, yes, but perhaps you forget that Steel-types are also switch-ins to Rayquaza or any dragon using Outrage-- thus, it's helpful to have a move to destroy Steels. Rayquaza does this better than Zekrom and Garchomp with V-Create; the fact that it can do so much damage to Kyogre with V-Create is something I see as a fortunate, if unintended side-effect, since this will probably only happen on mispredicted switches. V-Create is NOT the main purpose of the set, that's still Outrage, but V-Create is a powerful tool in Rayquaza's arsenal, CBQuaza takes advantage of it best, and it's an option that shouldn't be ignored.

EDIT: Just so no one can say I didn't address the fact that Outrage+Extremespeed+V-Create is walled by Heatran, I'd like to cite NewWorldOrder's statistic about Heatran being very rare, and reference the fact that it can still run EQ as filler if you're THAT concerned about running into him.
 
I'd say V-Create should be a main option, but Overheat has to be in AC. With an EV spread 228 Atk / 64 SAtk / 216 Spd and a Jolly nature can outspeed all non-scarf 90 Base, 1HKO Ferrothorn with Overheat and 2HKO almost everything with STAB Choice Band Outrage, while mantaining its not that bad 105-90-90 bulk. It may look stupid, but can be used effectively.

I think Outrage + V-Create + Extremespeed should be the main moves, and, for coverage, a filler such as Stone Edge, Dragon Claw, Waterfall, Crunch, Brick Break
 
V-Create isn't released yet= CB Rayquaza got nothing new, so I won't stamp this. CB Rayquaza isn't exactly awesome anyway when it can sweep way better with standard/Mixed Dragon Dance or just break things apart with the Mixed set. Swords Dance set destroys slow teams.

Instead of using CB Outrage you can just bash them with +2 / +1 Outrage. Unlike Zekrom, Rayquaza has access to Dragon Dance and Swords Dance which means it sweeps better. You may argue CB breaks walls but so can the Mixed set or Dragon Dance. +1 Outrage from Rayquaza OHKOes Arceus.

Dragon Dance can't get past healthy Lugia or Groudon but it can rip through a shit lot of threats such as Darkrai, Mewtwo, Shaymin-S, Scarf base 90 users and Arceus being the main ones. Mixed set OHKOes Groudon, and does a fair amount to Lugia. If you are CB, you are going to get revenged killed by those.

Extremespeed from unboosted Rayquaza isn't exactly powerful anyway. Compare it with CB Zekrom, it can OHKO Lugia instead of 2HKO.

mr.lol said:
Garchomp can't do that since CB chomp doesn't have strong enough attacks, and Zekrom's Outrage isn't luring in anything (also lacks EQ and a plethora of coverage moves, did I mention its walled by Dugtrio if it goes CB Electric move?)
Really? Zekrom lures in Groudon even more than Rayquaza so you don't get extra surprise factor with CB Rayquaza. CB Garchomp is resistant to SR so it can actually stay alive longer against offensive teams.

Bolt Strike destroys Steel-types, and is even more powerful than Outrage. Rayquaza gets Overheat but you are stuck in a weak move next turn, forcing you to switch.

Garchomp outspeeds Palkia, CB Rayquaza stuck on Outrage is easily revenged killed. Garchomp has a secondary physical STAB which helps it OHKO Dialga, Tyranitar and Steel Arceus. Also CB Earthquake is a good move to spam if the opponent lacks something immune to it. Rayquaza only has Outrage as its powerful STAB move.

All these are without V-Create though. When V-Create is available, Choiced Rayquaza might actually be useful.
 

polop

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I apologize for the tardiness of my response :(. OK so since no one aside I likes Rayquaza without V-Create I'll update the analysis to one with V-Create, and QC can check or reject whenever they can test it on PO.

I'll stop arguing since no one listens to me anyway :(.

But seriously...
Should I move Jolly to AC? He might like the speed but wall breakers like Specs Ogre run Modest
THIS THREAD SHALL EXPERIENCE INACTIVITY FOR A WHILE BUT IT IS INTENDED, don't lock it moderators!

EDIT: OK THIS THREAD SHALL EXPERIENCE INACTIVITY until V-Create is released on PO.
 
I apologize for the tardiness of my response :(. OK so since no one aside I likes Rayquaza without V-Create I'll update the analysis to one with V-Create, and QC can check or reject whenever they can test it on PO.

I'll stop arguing since no one listens to me anyway :(
Dude don't take it personally... Most of us are arguing on Rayquaza's behalf, not to put you down specifically. Just try to be a little more receptive to people's advice/suggestions.

As for your question, I can't answer that as I'm not a mod or an analyzer.
 
i'ld say keep jolly mention the 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe spread (also take note that there is an error in the SD set where it says 34 HP / 4 SDef which is missing a point and 40 HP IVs is 361 HP thus a SR number) as the only thing that is particularly common in the 95 block is Rayquaza.
 

polop

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Dude don't take it personally... Most of us are arguing on Rayquaza's behalf, not to put you down specifically. Just try to be a little more receptive to people's advice/suggestions.

As for your question, I can't answer that as I'm not a mod or an analyzer.
I'll try to be more receptive. I think I'll just wait for QC's opinion on CB quaza, for all the disputed stuff.

i'ld say keep jolly mention the 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe spread (also take note that there is an error in the SD set where it says 34 HP / 4 SDef which is missing a point and 40 HP IVs is 361 HP thus a SR number) as the only thing that is particularly common in the 95 block is Rayquaza.
While I do agree with you that a SR number is very important for a CB set, I'd like to discuss this with QC before making the actual change. If I remember correctly, none of the other sets for Rayquaza made the change, and for the purpose of consistency (and speed tying is kinda useful I guess), I'd like to hold on before making any change right now.

I'll just elaborate on both of the given natures in AC.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by 34 HP 4 SpD, there are no EV's like that on this set...

QC can start checking and rejecting whenever its released on PO, sorry for my delay in instantly responding to everyone.

EDIT: MASS EDIT, I think Scarf Quaza might also be worthy of an analysis due to V-Create, but I don't know if I'm allowed to makes such a change. If QC would like I can write up a scarf set, and maybe even Swords Dance if they feel its benefited that much from V-Create.
 
@above i was taking note of a mistake on the SD set's AC section and establishing it as such before someone sited it.
 
I had typed up a longass post about stuff but then it got deleted ;-; So, here's what I have to say in concise


  • Keep a Jolly slash but make Adamant primary slash imo. CB Rayquaza kinda likes the extra muscle power and most bases 90s like Dialga, Groudon dont run max speed anyway. Kyogre mostly runs Scarf and outspeeds you anyway.

Your set comments:

Earthquake and Overheat are your options to hit Steels, former pairs VERY nicely with Outrage giving Rayquaze the ability to hit everything neutrally barring Skarmory and Shedinja. Latter hits every steel barring Heatran neutrally or super effectively.
You can use both Overheat and EQ for perfect coverage. Dragon Claw however gives the ability to use a STAB Dragon-type move that you don't lock yourself into.
  • That Overheat mentioned should probably be V-Create, a typo on your part ? Also please dont even mention overheat since it was the main reason for QC rejecting CB Ray last time.

  • Lastly, like Shrang I agree this should probably be a Rayquaza revamp instead of simply a set. Scarf Rayquaza could probably work so I'd recommend you to test it out and get some logs. I'd test it out myself but I barely get to get get on Smogon nowadays. Also include some calcs as they will show the devastating power of CB Rayquaza.

I'd probably stamp this but I will categorically refrain from doing so since I havent played Ubers ( or any Pokemon or any game) for the past 2 weeks.
 

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