Lower Tiers RBY NU Viability Rankings (Pre-Alph)

[Sevi 7]

why are Tangela banned?

It’s UU

^

To expand on that a little bit though.
Right now, Tangela is considered a UU pokemon. However, it's uncertain if it will stay there, so it may drop to NU one day. Because that, some of us have tested to see if Tangela would be good in NU, and it does ok. Shellnuts has played more games with it than I have, so maybe he can say more about that.

Also just to remind people, that this tier is temporary and may completely change, depending on what happens in UU. After RoA Olympics and a tournament I will be hosting personally, we should begin talking about suspect tests in UU. This could result in nothing changing or it could result in a series of bans and a lot of things moving up to UU; completely changing NU. We have no way of knowing right now, because people are discussing some bans that result in no changes, a lot of changes, or something in the middle.

 

[Hipmonlee]

I think after RoA olympics it would be good to do a proper tiering of UU, via Vapicuno's method, so we can decide officially what should be NU. Honestly I dont think Tangela should be UU. But it's probably the only thing that is too likely to shift (if Poli comes down I assume it'll get banned).

 

[Shellnuts]

To elaborate on why Tangela is considered in UU currently, it is in a weird spot where, from the games I have used it in, it has shown itself to be better in UU than everything else not currently in UU. Acting as a counter to Pokemon like Dugtrio, Electabuzz, Raichu, and a check to Persian, which, in most cases, forces the opponent to switch while spreading in paralysis, without inviting in Hypno to absorb it since removing the opposing Hypno with Sleep Powder is—in most cases—a massive upside for the Tangela player. While also providing some chip and paralysis with Body Slam, forcing switches against paralyzed targets with Bind, and healing off some chip damage with Mega Drain—which is usually enough to let it live one more Slash from Persian. It is a niche Pokemon with many drawbacks such as being weak to Ice moves, an abysmal speed tier, and very low damage output, but, as mentioned before, it is clearly better than everything else, so for now we are considering it a UU Pokemon on roughly the same level as other less common threats such as Omastar. Though I can definitely can see it (or Omastar for that matter) dropping to NU, and as Sevi 7 and Hipmonlee mentioned, once RoA Olympics is done, a proper tiering of UU would be in order, one part of that being a clear demarcation between UU and NU.

 

[Sevi 7]

Speed Tiers

I've added a little description in the spoilers to give some idea about why the speed stat is broken into these particular tiers.

*Denotes that the mon gets Agility

Tier 0 (Base 105 and Above)

These are pretty much guaranteed to be the fastest mon in any game.

140 Electrode
130 Aerodactyl*
105 Rapidash* |Scyther*

Tier 1 (Base 93 to Base 100)

Base 100s are generally the fastest mons in a game and most teams will have at least one. Anything above 90 can be good for speed control though.

100 Charizard |Fearow* |Ninetales
97 Raticate
95 Arcanine* |Diglett |Primeape
93 Magmar

Tier 2 (Base 85 to 90)

These mons are going to be faster than average speed mons, but can't compete with the really fast mons of the previous tiers

90 Abra | Moltres* | Mr. Mime |Venomoth | Poliwhirl
87 Hitmonlee
85 Nidoking |Pinsir |Seadra*

Tier 3 (Base 80)

Base 80 speed is really the borderline between fast and slow. Everything above this is fast. Everything below this is slow

80 Arbok |Gastly |Kabutops |Venusaur

Tier 4 (Base 60 to 78)

These are the slower mons and you should expect these to rely more on their bulk or paralysis support

78 Blastoise
76 Nideoqueen
75 Kingler
70 Dewgong |Dragonair* |Magneton
65 Flareon
60 Clefable |Weezing

Tier 5 (Base 55 and Below)

Anything that is this slow needs great bulk or paralysis support to function in a game.

55 Machamp |Weepinbell
50 Muk
45 Wigglytuff
42 Drowzee
40 Exeggcute |Porygon*
35 Graveler
30 Lickitung | Parasect
15 Slowpoke

 

[Hipmonlee]

Since no one agrees with my VRs, and they are just totally out of step with Sevi's ones, I will post my own VR list here.

Widely agreed to be great, you can always slap one of these on a team, and you should think carefully before replacing them:
Kabutops, Mr. Mime, Clefable

Universally agreed to be good. But you can definitely drop them whenever it suits without worrying too much:
Venusaur, Charizard, Blastoise, Nidoking, Porygon

Things that are probably very good, but the metagame is new so there are some questions for some people:
Moltres, Dewgong, Fearow, Pinsir, Arcanine

Contentious stuff:
Seadra, Rapidash, Kingler, Wigglytuff, Gastly, Poliwhirl, Nidoqueen, Raticate, Venomoth, Arbok, Magneton, Electrode, Muk, Weezing, Dragonair, Exeggcute, Drowzee, Slowpoke, Graveller

Stuff that I personally think you should try out and has useful niches, but either no one else believes me or no one has gotten round to using much yet:
Ninetales, Flareon, Magmar, Pidgeot, Lickitung, Machamp, Primeape

Stuff that might work:
Scyther, Seaking, Sandslash, Vileplume, Parasect, Weepinbel, Abra, Aerodactyl, Hitmonlee, Butterfree

Stuff that wont work:
Everything else (prove me wrong, kids!)

 

[phoopes]

After playing a few games I'm inclined to rank the starters in the following way.

A+ Venusaur
A Charizard
A- Blastoise

Venusaur's Sleep Powder is so cool to have and I think that makes it insanely valuable, moreso than the other two IMO. Charizard's merits have already been discussed enough I think (especially as a lead) to maintain in A. Meanwhile, maybe I'm just not using Blastoise right but... it's good I guess? But not nearly as valuable as the other two IMO.

 

[phoopes]

After a lot more games here are my thoughts on what's currently A-rank

A+ Ranks:
Charizard
Nidoking
Venusaur

A Ranks:
Arcanine
Clefable
Dewgong
Kabutops
Mr. Mime
Porygon

A- Ranks:
Blastoise
Moltres

Quick rundown:

• Charizard is just awesome. I agree with Sevi's lead analysis saying it's the best in the game, but it can also function as a late-game cleaner, with or without Swords Dance. I tend to favor it as a lead though
• Nidoking has unmatched coverage making it the best late-game cleaner. Whittling down the opponent's team and then bringing it in to sweep reminds me of Tauros in OU (not saying it's as good as OU Tauros but it's reminiscent)
• Venusaur is by far the best sleep spreader and I value that really highly. It can also take a hit pretty well.

• Arcanine is also another really good lead, but I think Charizard's better in that spot, plus more versatile. Still a good 'mon though.
• Clefable is pretty much a staple of the tier. Also a little unpredictable because of its wide movepool.
• Dewgong is a better Blastoise IMO. That might be a hot take but they mostly use the same moves and I really value the higher Special and strongest Blizzard in the tier
• Kabutops is another great late-game cleaner. I just like Nidoking's coverage and speed better.
• Mr. Mime is interesting because I ususally save it for taking out the opponent's Mr. Mime. It's definitely a staple 'mon but more predictable than Clefable
• Porygon is good for walling and can heal itself with Recover instead of Rest which is huge. Add in Thunder Wave and some good attacking options as well and you get a great (but slow) team members

• Blastoise, as mentioned above, feels like a worse Dewgong. However, there are merits to using it, such as Hydro Pump > Surf and being able to take Fire Blasts better
• Moltres, while not as good as Charizard or Arcanine, merits a spot in A- simply because it is significantly better than the other stuff in B tier in my opinion. Great bulk, good speed, the strongest Fire Blast in the game all make it worth a spot on your team and in the lower echelon of A rank

 

[dawnbuster]

I think Magmar deserves to be ranked in D Rank. While it looks like a hopelessly outclassed Fire Type from the offset, it has a few perks. It’s able to lure in Pokemon such as Charizard or Kabutops and nab a potential paralysis with Body Slam, which can be hugely useful, especially in Zard's case since it rarely runs Rest. In addition unlike Arcanine, Magmar is not completely helpless against Kabutops since it 3HKOs it with Submisson. Magmar also has a few other tricks up its sleeve, such as Confuse Ray and Psychic. Of course, Magmar does face huge competition from other Fire Types, mostly Arcanine, which can make it hard to use. But it still has a small niche in the metagame

 

[phoopes]

Quick post to get my thoughts in a more permanent place since I've been spamming the Discord: Here's some thoughts after the last few days.

A+
Charizard, Nidoking, Venusaur (unchanged from my last post)

A
Clefable, Dewgong, Kabutops, Mr. Mime, Porygon (dropped Arcanine)

A-
Arcanine, Blastoise, Pinsir (dropped Arcanine to A-, moved Pinsir up to A-)

B+
Fearow, Moltres, Venomoth (dropped Moltres, moved up Fearow and Venomoth)

Reasoning: in the past few days I realized I overrated Moltres and Arcanine a little bit, while underestimating Pinsir, Fearow, and Venomoth. Pinsir is a great Swords Dance sweeper. Fearow you can just bring in and hit stuff which I like. Venomoth can usually get two statuses and an attack off which is dope.

Some more thoughts for lower rankings:

Electrode to C+: honestly I hate this thing lol, I think it's def underrated as a lead. The Thunder Wave and Explosion combo really sell it for me

Rapidash to C: this thing is honestly annoying to face as a lead. I think it has a niche for sure and it's performed better against me than anything else in C save Electrode

Hitmonlee to D: movepool sucks but it has good speed and is the only 'mon with access to HJK, which I think gives it a niche over Machamp

Magmar to D: +1 to the post above me

 

[Sevi 7]

If you two, or anyone else, can get me some Magmar replays, I can start looking into putting it into D. In my very limited experience with it, I have not seen it do anything, but I'm not saying it can't be good

 

[Khaetis]

I use counter/fire blast/body slam/ confused ray.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1nu-1193645164

 

[phoopes]

Latest edition of the phoopes viability rankings. It gets more unsure as you go down the list but I'm pretty confident of everything through B-/C+:

A+
1. Venusaur is the best sleeper in the game. It also has bulk to take hits and power to dish them out. It's close but I think it's the best.
2. Mr. Mime is on almost all of my teams. Its best counter is itself IMO. It's an ever-present threat, I think the most used in the tier.
3. Charizard is the best lead in the game. Can pivot and even hax games with Fire Spin. Also functions well as a Swords Dance sweeper.

A
4. Kabutops at 4 is probably the lowest you're going to see this on anyone's VRs. Valuable late game cleaner.
5. Clefable is really versatile, can spread status and hit back for decent damage. This thing can use like 7 or 8 different moves effectively.
6. Nidoking is my personal favorite late-game cleaner. Gets insane coverage.
7. Dewgong is a bulky Water whose Ice typing and high Special give it the strongest Blizzard in the tier too. Hard to kill since it can Rest.

A-
8. Porygon's role as a wall is greatly helped by its ability to Recover rather than Rest. Can also spread status and hit back.
9. Arcanine is another great choice for a lead, just overshadowed a bit by Charizard.
10. Blastoise is a bulky Water worth having, just outsped by enough things to be annoying and overshadowed by Dewgong.

B+
11. Pinsir is a really dangerous Swords Dance sweeper. Can also use Bind to annoy/pivot.
12. Venomoth is a great status spreader, able to to run double Powders effectively to cripple the opposing team.
13. Moltres is a 'mon that can really mess you up if you're unprepared for it. It has great stats across the board and can Fire Spin.

B
14. Fearow is a sweeper to be feared. Walled by Rock types but can really put a dent into your team if you're not ready.
15. Drowzee is notable for being able to stand up well to an opposing Mr. Mime, as well as spread status.
16. Raticate is another fast sweeper that gets a cool tool in Super Fang.
17. Exeggcute is another option for running double Powders. Also a Psychic type which is always cool in RBY.

B-
18. Electrode is an underrated and annoying lead IMO. It's walled by Ground types but can always Explode in a pinch.
19. Poliwhirl I've seen mostly used as a high risk high reward lead. When it works, it can really put a dent in your opponent's team.

C+
20. Gastly is notable for being able to hard-wall some 'mons that only carry Normal/Fighting moves. Can also Hypnosis, but is frail.
21. Rapidash has the fastest Fire Spin in the game, making it a good lead/pivot but it is overshadowed by other Fire types.

C
22. Seadra has fallen out of favor recently, but can still be effective at punching a hole in your opponent's team.
23. Graveler has Thunder Wave immunity, STAB Earthquake, and Explosion. Next.
24. Aerodactyl has fantastic Speed and good Attack, but a poor movepool holds it back.
25. Weezing has a pretty nifty set of Special moves that it can use, plus Explosion as well.
26. Nidoqueen exists for use in a double Nido core. Otherwise, Nidoking outclasses it completely in NU.
27. Dragonair can use Agility + Wrap, but needs a lot of support to make it work.
28. Ninetales has some cool tools that other Fire types lack, but is mostly outclassed.
29. Staryu has interesting capabilities, similar to Starmie in OU. Just a bit too frail to make a huge impact.
30. Primeape's speed is its most useful asset. It has lower Attack than other Fighting types which can make its moves lack some punch.

C-
31. Kingler is pretty underwhelming to me, but Crabhammer is unique.
32. Arbok can use Glare + Wrap. I think other Wrappers/Fire Spinners highly outclass it though.
33. Muk is just a worse Weezing IMO.

D
34. Hitmonlee trades some of Primeape's speed for more Attack power. Its unique move is Hi Jump Kick, which is neat.
35. Magmar gets some unique tools to set it apart from other Fire types, but mostly ends up being underwhelming.
36. Scyther hits hard and fast, but its poor movepool holds it back.
37. Magneton can hit your opponent's bulky Waters hard, but overall there are better Paralysis spreaders.
38. Sandslash is rarely seen. I don't know a lot about it tbh, could potentially be much higher.
39. Machamp has the highest Attack power of the Fighting types, but its low speed holds it back.
40. Wigglytuff is just a (much) worse Clefable IMO.

E
Everything else I've seen isn't really worth playing. To be honest a lot of the D-rank 'mons really aren't worth playing either IMO but prove me wrong!

 

[Khaetis]

I think it would be nice if after the tournament the people who invested in the levels publish their VR is that it leads to a good discussion and a good understanding of the metagame.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Yeah, I intend to do a really detailed VR after the tournament, but I am putting it off for now because of time and because I keep changing my mind about things.

 

[MapCrimZ117]

Hey guys. I've been playing this tier for the past month now (when it was the ROA Spotlight) and tbh it was def really fun. The tier is really diverse, where most of the fully evolved mons (albeit, there's not that many) have some kind of use. I think i got like ~120 Ladder matches (which isnt /That/ much but its lowtier and old gen, so its not gonna be that popular lol) and a couple of the monday tourneys had rby nu and i participated.

A
A-

These guys are def the best mons in the tier rn, I don't think many people would argue otherwise, just maybe the order. Mime pretty much sets the speed tier and can either beat or just force a T-Wave trade on pretty much everything in the tier. its either the Panic stop-gap for your opponents attempt at sweeping (both Mime and Clef do this a lot, and well) or it is blasting Psychics itself, and the only fully-evolved mon to resist it, is itself. It's not overpowered or anything, but you'd be foolish to /not/ play him, imo (where the rest of the top tiers i could see a reason not to). So i def think its the #1 mon in the tier, tho all 4 can easily find an argument for themselves at the top of the list. Charizard for its own speed and coverage, Kabutops for its defensive typing and power, or Venusaur for Sleep + Razor Leaf. 80 base speed also is p good for the tier.

B
B-
C

Everything here has some kind of niche, whether big or small. I could go in /super/ detail about the order with honestly anything here, but tbh i don't want to flood the post/page with a 3000 word essay on why Gastly is above Aerodactyl or why i think Primeape is cool or whatever (i already typed enough as it is lol) but all of these are generally things ud want to keep in mind when thinking about threats/coverage when building a team, or when your opponent hasn't revealed their last yet. Just remember that there are /A lot/ of Fire and Water mons to choose from, and a lot of them are viable.

C-
D

C- and onward is where it starts to get uncommon. Most of them are either Mediocre/outclassed, or have really neat ideas compounded with a glaring weakness, whether its move coverage or its freakishly frail or just too slow. That said, they aren't unusable nor even that bad. Magneton, for example, could wreak havoc if the opponent doesn't run a ground type (which aside Nidoking, are pretty uncommon) or likewise Scyther if there's no Rock/Gastly or let them get KOed before revealing. Flareon is one of the strongest mons in the tier on both Phys and Spec side, but its the slowest of the fires and often compared to Arcanine. Arbok/Dragonair can Para and Wrap. You get the idea. A lot of them have pretty straight forward niches.

these two are ideas I've never seen or tested, but in theory could work well, so ill just say them here since it wouldn't really fit in the rankings. Slowpoke is fairly simple, Amnesia, psychic type, T-wave. its just whether or not it has the ability to tank moves here and there and still be functioning. 90/60 is decent physical bulk tho. It doesn't help the fact that even tho it resists Psychic, its weak to Tbolt and thus cant actually do much vs Mime. its also pretty comparable to Poliwhirl, but who knows, its an idea. Abra would pretty much be used as a 2nd poor mans Mr Mime. it is Stronger (Barely) and has the same speed, learns the same moves that Mr Mime uses, so it /could/ be used as like a 2nd mime sweep attempt. However, it just wont take any physical hits and probably not good as a T-wave trader for that reason, but again, its an idea.

And uh, that's it. if you want any specific explanation for any placement or lack thereof (Parasect and Vileplume are poopy. don't use) then ask away c:

 

[toaster04]

Everyone's thoughts about the current state of the tier and which Pokemon work/don't work is very precise. Just wanted to share my thoughts about Pinsir, a mon I think could be pretty usable (I haven't seen it come into play from others but had minimal narrow success, so I think it'd be cool)

To be fair, I think this mon could stay in B ranks, maybe even move up to B+. Delivering offensive pressure as a late game cleaner or punching holes into teams at +2 may sound pretty great but youre probably gonna have some problems with quite a number of top threats. this thing turns a potentially terrible situation into 1v1 beatdowns if it reaches +2, considering bulkier mons in the tier (Kabutops, Blastoise, etc.) can be 1HKO/2HKOed. It can work but the fact of the matter is that things like Molt and Arcanine hit hard, and without proper team support it's difficult to make a beeline into success. Then again, +2 and even +3 allows it to hit like a freight train to 1HKO a Kabutops. On top of that, one of the best mons in the tier being Clefable can die to a submission or two, maybe three.

With these assessments it's not the worst mon in the tier, but certainly usable.

Calcs

Pinsir Submission vs. Kabutops: 131-154 (40.5 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 Pinsir Submission vs. Kabutops: 260-306 (80.4 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Checked the calc and +3 becomes a 1hko against Kabutops, should be enough to back up if it should be moved up/down. Your decision!

edited for clarification

 

[Hipmonlee]

My big NU VR
A+
1. Kabutops
Kabutops is the most irreplaceable mon in NU. Nothing can wall it, and it has awesome defensive value. It is basically the only Fearow check and it hard walls it. It's also by far the best check for almost all Fires. Then add to that it's brutal Slash, which, with a little bit of coverage allows Kabutops to 3hko everything in the metagame.
The sets are Slash and Hydropump or Surf and then you have two options for your remaining moves. You can go with Swords Dance and Hyperbeam for the offensive option, or Submission and Rest for the more defensive option. Submission gives you the 2hko you need on Porygon without requiring Swords Dance. Blizzard does give you a little extra damage against Venusaur, but you have a guaranteed 3hko with Slash anyway. You might choose to run Blizzard over Rest if you like.

2. Mr. Mime
Mr. Mime has Psychic and Thunder Wave. That's basically it for Mr. Mime but it turns out that it's a lot. Special drops and crits make Mr. Mime a massive threat, when it's counters are either itself or some particularly fragile NFE rest users. In most games I will try to trade Mime for Mime, it's just the safest way to deal with it.
The set is Thunder Wave, Psychic, Thunderbolt, Seismic Toss. Alternatively Counter gives you the leg up against other Mime's, but it is very hard to lose Thunderbolt. Rest I think is a little dubious given how fragile Mr. Mime is, but it is a good option for when people try to wall you with resting Eggy or Drowzee.

3. Clefable
Clefable has amazing coverage, great defensive stats and Thunder Wave, allowing it to beat basically everything in a 1v1. If something is giving you trouble, just throw Clefable at it. At the very least it will be Paralyzed and low on health at the end of it.
Clefable thrives off of variety, but you almost always will want Thunder Wave. Thunderbolt is the next most important move, to stop you getting walled by Kabutops, but Kabutops will be wary of Paralysis and the potential of Thunderbolt, so you can definitely bluff this. I also strongly recommend carrying Hyperbeam more often than not. It is Clef's best STAB move, as it can generally do enough with it's special moves to bring things into Hyperbeam range. Blizzard, Body Slam, Counter, Sing are your other options. Double-Edge is generally worse than Body Slam, but does have some uses.

A
4. Charizard
4 and 5 are pretty close here, but I am going with Charizard. Effectively the fastest thing in the game. It checks Fire Types and Venusaur, deals out awesome immediate damage with Fire Blast, Slash and Earthquake, and is a massively threatening sweeper with Swords Dance.
Earthquake is really your only must have. Fire Blast is pretty close to it, but there is an amazing all physical set with Slash, Swords Dance and Hyperbeam. Slash gives you the immediate damage you need, and you have quake and Hyperbeam for after you boost, most often you would swap Slash for Fire Blast though. Fire Spin is always great for pivoting and for chipping things into range of other attacks. Counter is another awesome option here, especially useful for dealing with other Charizards.

5. Venusaur
By far the best sleeper in the game, it also has Razor Leaf, which makes it a huge threat to anything that doesnt resist it. Unfortunately, a lot of things just hard wall Venu. However, being walled isnt always a disaster, the great thing about Venusaur is because of the massive damage that Razor leaf does, especially to water types, your opponent is often forced into switching when Venu is out. This means Venusaur is great for allowing you to double to your bigger threats. Notably Kabutops, if your opponent is relying on Fire types to take the Razor Leaf hits.
Obviously, Sleep Powder and Razor Leaf are non-negotiable. That leaves two slots for Body Slam, Hyperbeam and Swords Dance.

So I want to note, I think there is a bit of a step down in viability after this point. Perhaps I should call my A-s B+s to accentuate that, but I think that would be a little unfair to them.

A-
6. Dewgong
STAB Blizzard is amazing. Especially when water types can't really hurt Dewgong much, allowing you to freeze them with Ice Beam. Often the best you can hope for against Dewgong is to counter it with your own Dewgong. On the other hand, being an Ice type takes away your fire resistance, so it is a lot harder to switch Dewgong in than most other Waters. But, as always, the best defence is a strong offence, and that is why I have Dewgong way ahead of Blastoise.
Blizzard, Ice Beam, Surf, Rest gives you the best chance to freeze other waters, and keeps your coverage. You could go for a move to hit other Dewgongs with, but your only real option is Toxic and it seems a little pointless to me. Body Slam likewise, just doesnt do enough damage to be worth it IMO.

7. Porygon
The wall! One of the most defining Pokemon in this tier, you dont want to be stuck with a team of mons that can't finish off Porygon. However, if you look down my VRs you may notice that the only thing in the A tiers that Porygon can switch into is Venusaur. Maybe Nidoking if it's very lucky. However, walling Venusaur is very useful, as is Thunder Wave.
Thunder Wave, Thunderbolt, Psychic/Blizzard, Recover. Thunder Wave things, and then recover until they FP. Try not to get paralyzed yourself, but if your opponent is running all offense, then you might have to.

8. Moltres
Possibly my first controversial pick? But it shouldnt be. The stats on Moltres are hilarious. Mr. Mime, the massive special attacking threat, has a less than 50% chance to 3hko with Thunderbolt (not factoring in crits). Clefable and Dewgong are the only two things in the tier that dont resist Fire and can't be OHKOed by a crit Fire Blast. Moltres basically forces your opponent to switch to a counter, but even Blastoise can be 4hkoed by FireBlast and only 3hkoes with Surf. IE, if it tries to switch into a Moltres it can be forced to rest before finishing it off, and if it ever tries to attack the Moltres, it will be in danger of being KOed by a crit. And I haven't even mentioned Fire Spin yet.
Fireblast, Firespin, Filler, Filler. You dont need much more. Toxic spin is particularly scary, since Moltres is so bulky it can stay in against the likes of Kabutops pretty easily. Plus you can combine that with Agility. It's also bulky enough to Rest easily, but the low PP on Fire Blast can be an issue. Otherwise you have Double-Edge or Hyper Beam, which are nice for that extra damage. Hyperbeam will be guaranteed to finish off Blastoise after 3 Fire Blasts.

9. Nidoking
A massive threat that is immune to paralysis. It has great coverage, but unfortunately it relies pretty heavily on it. Unlike Kabutops which can basically just click Slash, Nidoking is constantly trying to predict it's way around threats. That, plus it's weaknesses to Water, Psychic, Ice and Ground can make it a bit of a crit magnet. But with the right support, can be a fantastic breaker or sweeper.
Earthquake, Thunderbolt, Blizzard, Rock Slide is your set. You can go with Substitute, but losing any of the coverage moves is a huge pain. Blizzard seems like the easiest move to drop, but it is such a great move you'll definitely miss it.

That's all the As done. Gonna take a break from now and will do some notes on the rest later. They wont be as detailed.

I guess I am leaving you with a cliffhanger for why I haven't ranked Blastoise yet.

 

[phoopes]

For what it's worth, here's my viability rankings immediately following the tournament:

Hide

 

[Hipmonlee]

B+
10. Blastoise
It's too passive. It's not really a threat to anything in A, like it checks Charizard, Moltres and Kabutops, but not well. Moltres and Kabutops are both pretty likely to just blow past a Blastoise that tries to switch in against them. And it doesnt really do all that much damage. So, it checks things but doesnt really force them out, and if they do switch out it does bugger all damage anyway. Generally, in my experience, it will surf or blizzard for moderate damage (considerably less than eg. Dewgong) a couple of times, then rest, then maybe rest again.
If you are going to use it, use Surf, Seismic Toss, Counter, Rest most of the time. Counter is the one thing it can do to actually threaten things. Blizzard and Submission could have a place as the metagame develops.

Ok with the controversy out of the way I will keep my comments much more brief. Only set notes when they are particularly interesting

11. Pinsir
On attack it's amazing, but defensively it doesnt offer much, it has some value as a Venusaur and Nidoking check, but it's not even that great at those. Being OHKOed by every fire type generates a lot of pressure against you.
12. Fearow
Deadly once Kabutops is out of the way. Just not nearly as deadly before that.
B
13. Venomoth
Fast sleep is great, double powder is great. And that's it for Venomoth.
14. Ninetales
The next best fire type. It has the special to OHKO Mime and Porygon with a crit, which Arcanine lacks. Plus it can fire spin. I honestly strongly recommend replacing all Arcanines with Ninetales. Spamming STAB Fire Blast is just a better idea than spamming unstab Body Slams.
B-
15. Arcanine
Not as good as Ninetales, but still pretty good. I honestly could have this in C.
16. Kingler
A massively underrated threat. A non passive replacement for Blastoise. On paper it appears like replacing Blastoise with Kingler gives you a stack of weaknesses, but in practice I dont believe the advantages for Blastoise are actually that advantageous. I think you're just better off blasting away with strong Slams and Crabhammers than whatever Blastoise is doing for you.

So you may have noticed I am not a big fan of rest. I just think too many of these threats are just too damn threatening to be giving them free turns.

C+
17. Poliwhirl
An incredible threat in the late game. Just needs to hit some things. Great at exploting slow waters types. If youre gonna lead with it, switch it out of Venusaur please.
18. Rapidash
Another strong Fire type. There isn't much between them TBH. The speed isnt useful enough to use this ahead of Ninetales, so you've got to commit really hard to Fire spam before you're going to get to Rapidash. But, committing really hard to fire spam is actually a pretty strong strategy.
19. Seadra
Water spam is just not as good as fire spam, mostly because the water types just arent as good as the fire types. Seadra is usable, but I dont think its as good as Blastoise... I think I'd just rather have Kingler's instant damage.
20. Magneton
My word Magneton is a threat if your opponent hasnt got Nidoking and Venusaur. That Thunderbolt is incredible. But that was a rather large "if".

C
21. Magmar
Counter and Submission are great on Fire types. Plus all the Fire types are pretty great. But Magmar really only has a place on all out Fire spam.
22. Flareon
Hits brutally hard, but again, it's all out fire spam or there's just no point.
23. Wigglytuff
C tier seems to be the tier of things that are good, but are just not as good as things ahead of them. Wiggly is really strong and easy to use, but is literally outclassed by Clefable. You can use it on a team alongside Clef, but justifying that over Porygon is a little tricky. You could try all three? TL;DR: its good, but dont use it.
24. Exeggcute
Double powder but slow. It checks Mr. Mime as well, so it gives you a little bit of role compression over Venusaur, but against everything else in the tier it is quite bad. It's explosion is so sad...
25. Drowzee
It resists seismic toss better than Mr. Mime and it can Hypnosis. Makes sense as something to use alongside Mime, but, generally against the rest of the tier it's just a bit too weak. Psychic spam has been a big disappointment to me so far.
26. Electrode
So fast, STAB tbolt and Explosion. But also so weak, and is pretty useless against Nidoking and Venusaur. Like, it would be cool if it could Explode on Nidoking to clear a path for Magneton, but it cant...
27. Weezing
The exploding Poisons are a little scary. Pretty good at dealing with random problems by exploding on them (they have the defence to allow them to come in against SDers), and you often have to worry about them trading 2 for 1. But they aren't great...
28. Muk
See Weezing.

C-
29. Nidoqueen
It really is pretty close in quality to Nidoking, but having two ground/poisons on your team seems like a bit of a stretch.
30. Pidgeot
See Nidoqueen, except Fearow is worse than Nidoking
31. Gastly
Really useful for pivoting around Slashes, and Hypnosis is very nice. Otherwise it is just incredibly weak...
32. Primeape
Quick, decent damage. Not much reason to use it over something like Pinsir though...
33. Dragonair
It is what it is...
34. Arbok
Spreads paralysis, just doesnt do it very well. Kinda close to being amazing, but isnt.
35. Slowpoke
I think if fire spam continues to become more popular, Slowpoke could really start to shine. But we're not there yet.
36. Graveler
Some role compression that would allow you to drop Kabutops, if for some reason you didnt want to use the best mon in the tier.

D
37. Staryu
It's pretty bad.
38. Aerodactyl
Also pretty bad.

 

[Sevi 7]

With the conclusion of the RoA Spotlight Tour, I'd like to point out changes that have been made with a little explanation about why it happened.

Dewgong B -> A
Dewgong has gained popularity through this tour and has become one of the premier water checks. Being immune to freeze and having a resistence to water is huge. Blastoise has been seen trying to get past it better and has started running counter and submission for it. Being the only mon with STAB Blizzard also gives it an offensive niche, despite it's bad speed. Blizzard can wallbreak Porygon and can break grass and flying-types.
These things have bumped Dewgong up to the A Rank as it becomes a mainstay staple of the tier.

Moltres B -> A
Since the tier's genesis, Moltres has been places everywhere from S to C on at least someone's VR. Now it's back in A as a powerful special attacker with good bulk and speed. Toxic on Moltres has been played enough by myself and others to where I think we can say that it's part of the meta, which means Kabutops can no longer switch in so safely; expecting and Spin or Blast. Thus we have seen Moltres in a number of different roles and on quite a few different teams. All in all, Moltres is a strong player in any game and has earned it's A Rank.

Gastly B -> C -> B
Gastly wasn't really doing anything before the tournament started and so it was dropped to C fairly early in. Since the tour, it has picked up a little bit and has found more of a niche than before. Moving it to B is a little premature, so maybe it won't stick around but it's here for now.

Pinsir UR -> B
Pinsir was kinda used before, but not really enough to rank it. Well now Pinsir has had plenty of use and it's shown to be a good offensive mon with a variety of options -such as Swords Dance, Slash and Bind- and an above average speed. Personally, it's lack of defense has turned me off to it, so I don't see it climbing higher than this any time soon.

Poliwhirl D -> B
Poli has really picked up as a lead and that has really pushed it's usefulness up. It can work outside of the lead too of course, but it's worth as least as much as Venomoth, and that puts them in an even placement at least.

Graveler D -> C
Graveler has proven to be better than the other D ranks. Non blizzard Clef needs to fear it and it can check normal and electric attacks. It's still a bit of a niche pick and barely sees the play of the B ranks, so it's still not a B rank, but it might be someday.

Rapidash D -> C
Rapidash's speed with Fire Spin puts it in a unique position to be able to Toxic Spin the entire meta, including Charizard, who is normally a problem. It's speed can have other purposes as well, but that niche alone can put it into C.

Muk C -> D
Muk was honestly placed to C to hastily. Putting it into D is much more appropriate until it can prove itself. It's got an interesting explosion use, but it's theoretical right now.

Ninetales UR -> D
Ninetales is looking like it will be a better as people will play with it more people play it. It's got a good speed and special with Fire Spin. It may end up going to C or B soon.

Primeape UR -> D
Primeape is getting some success with it's STAB fighting. It's pretty underexplored, so it might go higher, but for now it's good for D.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Golem: A Short Introduction - In many ways Golem is a godsend to NU thanks to it being a competent Rock / Ground type. Graveler and Onyx failed for the role for a lot of shortcomings that Golem improves upon; that said, Graveler is still a C rank mon, so the upgrade is bound to do better. Golem particularly shines as a check to Fire-types, as the premier Fire Spin users of Moltres, Arcanine, Ninetales, and Rapidash have nothing but Fire Blast burns to check Golem. Charizard is also another Fire-type put in check by Golem, and unlike the guaranteed EQ 3HKO, there's only a 18% chance to do so against Golem. Fire-types and Fire spam teams totally got a check here, as there's a new offensive counterplay.

Another perk for Golem and for teambuilding is that there's a Ground-type that can feasibly switch into Mr. Mime's Thunder Wave. Previously, Nidoking wouldn't work as it's weak to Psychic, and Graveler is also 2HKOd by psychic–70% chance to 1HKO with a crit–and would have to use Explosion if it wanted to win the matchup. Golem on the other hand is only 3HKOd by Psychic, and 2HKOs back with Earthquake, meaning it's in the Golem player's favor to switch into Thunder Wave and eliminate the Mr. Mime. This is awesome and previously the counterplay for stopping Mr. Mime from spamming Thunder Wave was to sack something or switch into a bulky Pokemon with Rest like Exeggcute, Drowzie, or Arcanine. It sounds small on paper but in practice the threat of giving Golem a free switch-in is troublesome and a new hurdle for Mr. Mime.

For Golem internally, there's a lot to benefit off of a great Attack and dual STAB. Earthquake and Rockslide are must haves, should be no debate there, and Rock Slide is doing a lot for the tier thanks to Charizard being so valuable and a few other perks like 2HKOing Dewgong to limit switch-ins. Historically, Body Slam and Explosion seem to have been ran the most. The biggest pro to Explosion might be capitalizing on paralyzed or sleeping checks to Golem like Blastoise and Venusaur. There's also some matchups for Explosion like against Clefable and Exeggcute in the mid-game, or booming on say a full health Mime and Golem is in a 2HKO Psychic range. Otherwise, EQ is pretty much just as good if not better against Nidoking as it can crit, Porygon and Drowzee slower and 2HKOd by EQ, and against much of everything else there's little opportunity to boom in the first place. Rest instead could be a crutch against Fire spam where it's more valuable to recover HP on a Fire Spin miss than revenge kill. Substitute may also have some merit for scouting / fishing for full paras.

Hard to say what the post-Golem meta is going to look like in actuality, and take what I say with a grain of salt because I've only had a few games in. Tentatively, I see nothing wrong with A rank because it looks like a perfect fit with the rest of the top tiers and fulfills two much needed roles that I covered in the first two paragraphs.

two Golem teams to use or for inspiration, click for pokepaste:



Lead Charizard can Fire Spin its way out of any bad matchup like against Blastoise or Mr. Mime and then switch into Dewgong or Arcanine, respectively. Golem and Arcanine both cary Rest and should be well enough against Fire spam. For that matter, Dewgong is a good Water-type for the team to benefit of off spreading Body Slam paralyses and Blizzard wallbreaking. Venu can help clean up and switch into opposing Golems, and Mime does the same stuff it always does by providing awesome coverage and reliable special bulk if need be.



I've tried my hand at Explosion spam in the past, and Golem seemingly is an upgrade to the fringe playstyle. Lead Muk is decent because you can just play it very expendably and plan to sack it to Explosion or sleep, and I opted for Substitute + Giga Drain so you can scout for Golem and Kabutops for the switch-in. Electrode and two cleaners with Seadra and Charizard have synergy by forcing in eachothers checks to be chipped down or eliminated so that the other may sweep. Mime is mime lol can't really be teambuilding without a Psychic resist and may as well have the best Psychic-type there is and have more paralysis and revenge killing support.

Past the Golem hype, here's some long overdue takes on the meta:

• is #1 in the A ranks purely from a lack of competition for what it does. STAB Psychic, Thunder Wave, and Thunderbolt from a good special and very worthwhile speedtier is too good to pass up on. Even if you wanted to explore different offensive options, you'll still have to consider a Mime check for your team, and the fact of the matter is that the Mime mirror is also a valid counterplay if you're fine with trading Thunder Wavs and going to war with Seismic Toss. Alternative Mime checks like Egg and Drowzee are significantly held back due to being LCs and Egg unreliably spreading status once its paralyzed. Bulkier Pokemon that can stomach a Psychic and bite back like Golem, Arcanine, and Moltres do ok until they succumb to the high crit / special drop rate that Mime's Psychic can proc. Mr. Mime is just way too centralizing and likely to get out of hand for the tier, and you ought to run your own so you always have a backup check if needed.
• is a close #2 for me, maybe tied with Kabutops. The edge it has over Kabu though is its Speed and Fire Spin, because these two alone give it invaluable team support and puts the battle in your hands.
• Bottom of the A ranks, maybe B+ worthy. Like Mr. Mime, the advent of Golem means that it too can't freely spam Thunder Wave like before as it's outsped and 2HKOd by Golem. Recover is cool and all but Porygon is so susceptible to hax of all kinds and its typing doesn't bring much at all to the team. More bulkier Pokemon are learning to accept Rest as valid recovery, so all of Pory's niches are making me thing it's second hand rather than a top meta pick.
• can drop to C. Being slower than Fire-types is really bad for it, especially when Charizard is such a common late-game pick. It's pros over Kabutops as a SD cleaner don't make up for its typing bringing little to nothing to the table, whereas Kabutops' typing is invaluable.
• is another C drop imo. Super Fang just isn't that special, and Fearow's superior Speed and Attack usually just makes it better as a Normal-type attacker. However, with Golem, maybe the two are more comparable as sidegrades.
• doesn't do enough as a Wrapper to justify C rank, and all the use I've had with it it's fallen short. The mono Poison typing is dreadful, and there needs to be something really valuable to justify it. In Arbok's case, it's a little too slow and weak to pull off sweeps or revenge killing effectively, and needs way too much support for C rank.
• is pretty much the same as Rapidash, so both can be good C ranks. It's hard to justify these two outside of Fire spam, but C sounds good enough for them.
• obviously should be UR.

and I think that's it. I would have nommed to rise but Golem came in hot and does pretty much everything better than it besides the Speed. Tag me for NU games anytime, I'd love to play :>

 

[Hipmonlee]

If Golem sees use at all, and I think it should, Mag and Electrode are going straight to D, or even lower.

 

[Hex Poisonous]

I'm interested in seeing what Golem can help protect with team coverage.

 

[Shellnuts]

Welp, now we have Raichu and Poliwrath dropping and Venusaur rising to UU, time to throw out 95% of your teams everyone.