Lower Tiers RBY OU/UU Cutoff Discussion Thread (2019)

[Lusch]

Ruins of alph Olympics around the corner. Maybe a good time to actually decide on the RBY OU / RBY UU border. (Since it actually says in the OP "We'll likely be using this to define the OU / UU cutoff point ")
As it stands Victreebel is still not officially classified as OU. Thus it is allowed in UU. Since tiering in old gens (look at GSC) has been done by viability in the past, I believe that it should be done the same way in RBY OU. By that logic Victreebel should be clearly OU and thus disallowed in UU. It is the 9th highest rated Pokemon in this list, which is maybe one or two positions too high, but it's OU status should not be questioned at this point.
Just to be clear, Victreebel is not broken in RBY UU but it simply is good enough for OU. (For example Rhydon would not be broken in RBY UU, still no-one questiones it should not be allowed.)

That is just an example. It would simply be really nice if we could cleanly classify the Pokemon in RBY into OU and UU (and following UU a potential NU, like in GSC). And since this thread is "finally" up-to date with the I would say relatively settled (post-Crystal_-) RBY OU metagame it's as good of a time as any with RoA olyimpics and some RBY UU play around the corner to start that process.

So the question remains: Which Pokemon should make the RBY OU cut and which do not? I think it's pretty universally agreed upon that everything B-ranked (Gengar upwards) should be OU. At the same time, I feel it's reasonable to classify everything D-ranked as not-OU (Porygon downwards).

So for me the question remains about the C-ranked Pokemon. Do we classify all of them OU? Do we classify all of them not-OU? Do we discuss them case by case? So I want to get the proces started. (If this is the wrong thread, feel free to move it somewhere else Lutra Earthworm )

Personally, I would be okay with all three of the suggested methods, but lean towards discussing it case-by-case.
All of them to OU certainly has merit, as they all have some roles in the tier, but none of them is really a consistently seen pick in high-level play, though all of them do see some usage and people do use them to success as well. Still that is why all of them to "not-OU" or UU is viable as well. In fact, as it currently stands, all of them except Golem are legal in UU (as is Victreebel though, which my point is, it should not), and I know the tier and can tell you, none of them (except maybe Dragonite) is even close to being overpowered in UU, let alone even part of the group of "best Pokemon in the tier".

But let me briefly discuss them all case-by case (my personal stance on them, not set in stone):

Theres only few qualities Golem has over Rhydon. But people should never forget about the value of Explosion. I don't want to have the Rhydon vs Golem debate here, just to put it short, I think Golem is a good enough Pokemon personally, with enough of a niche in the tier ("mini-Rhydon" with Explosion, which is still not bad. Kangaskhan is often seen as "mini-Tauros" and it would probably have more of a reason to be used if it had anything to set it apart from Tauros, like Golem does from Rhydon in Explosion) such that Explosion gives it the right to call itself OU.

Articuno needs a lot of support vs Chansey, Starmie and Cloyster/Lapras. We all know that (unless you freeze the former two). But when you manage to take care of those (or just weaken them enough) Articuno just wrecks everything. Lapras cannot claim the same since it simply is not as strong as Cuno. Cuno almost does with Ice Beam what Lapras achieves with Blizzard (which can still miss).Tauros is most of the time 2HKOed by Blizzard plus Ice Beam, stuff like that... Borderline case, for sure, but imo such a powerhose Pokemon still makes the cut for OU.

Moltres is not hard walles by as much as Articuno is,but I'd still give the general edge to Cuno, since its moves just hit more reliably that Moltres'. Which is Moltres main issue: Reliability. Also normally losing to Rhydon as opposed to Articuno is not great either. But the potential definitely is still there, even more than in Articuno's case since burn + Fire Spin + Agility is on paper a dangerous combination. The added attack makes Chansey not as great of a check as it looks since one Fire Blast with a few Fire Spin hits puts it in Hyper Beam range quickly. If I had to give "not OU" to one of the birds though, I'd defnitely see an even stronger case for Moltres than Articuno. Still an equally strong powerhouse and thus I'd lean to also give Moltres the approval of OU.

Dragonite is probably the Pokemon in C-rank with the greatest potential to turn games around. It also is one of the Pokemon with the greatest potential to disappoint at the same time. Still, AgilityWrap is dangerous as it always was. And it does have access to Thunderwave as well, which I think is still a bit underexplored from most people. I definitely see the potential and thus to me it also belongsto OU.

Persian has its uses in OU for sure. but it is extremey frail on both sides and Slash only has an abysmal chance to 3HKO Snorlax, which means with a Reflect up, Snorlax can actually stall out Persian's Slashes. Something that makes it really unappealing to use Persian for me, since one of the merits it should bring along is beating Reflect-users. No Paraslams as well, and ironically not being able to hax with it's spammable move due to no secondary effect and already always landing a critical hit for me is not appealing enough. On this one I would actually say it should be not-OU.

I hope I can spark some discussion on the issue and we can "properly" tier RBY as it has been done in GSC relatively recently as well :]

 

[Earthworm]

The OP was originally posted in the RBY OU VR thread, which is why it makes references to another OP, etc. For anyone confused.

Looking forward to some interesting discussion (although not sure if it will conclude in time for RoA Olympics..).

 

[EB0LA]

Just going to throw my opinions in here as I would love to see RBY UU continue to progress & potentially the other lower RBY tiers as well. Let's get this first step completed so we can 100% know the pool of mons we can and can not use in RBY UU. Let's begin with the C ranks as I believe anything higher should remain in OU.

---------------------------------C RANKS---------------------------------​

I believe Golem is the biggest one that should be discussed as if it still has enough merit to remain in OU. It suffered in usage since the "body slam discovery" although it still has a lot going for it imo. Explosion is very powerful, and its main feature, outside blocking electric types. This, as well as, out-speeding Rhydon imo is enough reason for it to remain in OU as Rhydon/Golem serve similar roles. [OU]

&

I will merge these two together. Both have a real hard time working in OU. They need several things obstacles to be taken down for them to even be viable: Starmie, Chansey, Lapras, Cloyster, Slowbro, and most teams usually carry at least 2 of these, if not more. Their Flying typing makes them almost always vulnerable to some sort of super effective attack. Especially when they're paralyzed, now even Rhydon & Golem can take them down with 4x super effective rock slide. These should remain in UU. [UU]

Dragonite is another interesting topic. Once OU then sent to the UU realm. I believe Dragonite has strong merit to be OU. His agility + wrap is very OP. Dragonite also carries twave to spread status. I believe it to be very niche, and paired with a good paralysis-spreading team can even single handily sweep matches. I would advocate bringing him back into OU. I don't want to go down the path of wrap is uncompetitive... wrap has merit just as some users use sing or try to rely on slam paralysis. [OU]
Make Dnite Great Again!

Persian I agree has some merit for OU, although it is too frail & loses almost to all 6th mons aside from Rhydon & maybe Alakazam or Jynx. Not to mention is pretty much completely walled by the rare Gengar. Persian actually can easily beat reflect Snorlax. Slash twice then body slam crit 3rd hit. Basically Snorlax will be stuck in a rest loop until it parishes. Easily can drop tbolt off Persian, as it is only really viable vs. Cloyster to fit the slam. It perhaps works better some where in mid game, but I've never been able to have much consistent success from it, nor seen anyone else with much. [UU]

---------------------------------END C RANKS---------------------------------​

Victreebel is already B+ in the RBY OU Viability Ranking - Mark II. I agree with it moving into OU. It is a strong threat vs. the big 4 & all water mons with its 99.6% crit Razor Leaf. It Only is really stopped by Gengar or 6th/non-paralyzed Alakazam, or being forced in trading status with another fast status spreader, such as Zapdos or Jolteon (twave/stun spore). You always need to be prepared for this threat. Also moving it out of UU does not change UU as it is now, much at all. (although this should not impact any decision as we work top to bottom.) [OU]

 

[Hipmonlee]

First off, Victreebel is OU.

I think a case-by-case approach for the C ranks would make sense if they were very different in their usability in either OU or UU, which they really arent. You guys are mostly talking about some sense of their impact in OU, but we've already collectively decided that that is basically the same, that's why they are all C ranks. So I say put them all together.

So the next question is are they used so often that having them in UU would undermine the principle of a UU tier? Personally, I don't think so.

And then the next question is do they have a negative impact on the UU tier? Eg. do they crowd out a bunch of other more balanced pokemon? And again, I dont really think so. They are all pretty unique..

So I say make all the Cs UU.

 

[ErPeris]

I'm pretty busy these days so i won't go into details, but i will answer anyway to this topic, since my friend Lusch would like to know the opinion of other players.

Victreebell -> it's just ridiculous that Vic is not already OU : among these Pokemon, Vic is definitely the one that most deserves to be in OU
Persian -> UU
Golem -> OU
Cuno and Moltres -> UU
Dragonite -> OU

 

[Mister Tim]

Vic -> uu
Unique situation where pokemon is good for ou and trash for uu, where he is outclassed by tentacruel. I guess it depends on nowdays meta where 3-4/6 mona easily outspeed Vic.

Golem -> uu
Why we are talking about mon whose usage is near 0 and less than other participants here? Definitely needs test in uu.

Arti -> ou
Moltres -> uu
Nite -> ou
Persian -> uu

 

[Ortheore]

Vic should be ou lol. Imo everything in c can go to uu, as I just think they're sufficiently niche that they're not that relevant in OU

First off, Victreebel is OU.

I think a case-by-case approach for the C ranks would make sense if they were very different in their usability in either OU or UU, which they really arent. You guys are mostly talking about some sense of their impact in OU, but we've already collectively decided that that is basically the same, that's why they are all C ranks. So I say put them all together.

So the next question is are they used so often that having them in UU would undermine the principle of a UU tier? Personally, I don't think so.

And then the next question is do they have a negative impact on the UU tier? Eg. do they crowd out a bunch of other more balanced pokemon? And again, I dont really think so. They are all pretty unique..

So I say make all the Cs UU.

Obligatory note that concerns about a negative impact on uu should not hold weight due to being theorymon, or at least based on a version of the tier that would be outdated (since most of the mons being discussed are already UU). However I think the underlined point is really good. Over on Pokemon Perfect, I was initially in favour of a similar approach, only to get outvoted on that point when we first formed 2U- we ended up maintaining a case by case approach throughout our tiering project. Obviously, a case by case approach allows for people to account for factors other than viability- a mon can seem more or less worthy of OU than the pokemon that share its rank. The question is, what exactly does that mean? And is it even relevant? I think a large component of such reasoning introduces biases that would otherwise be invalid. In fact, I think it's fair to ask if a pokemon seeming more or less "OU" than similarly viable pokemon is anything more than a manifestation of such biases. If there is some basis to that perception, it would mean that either the pokemon sees usage that does not reflect its viability, or there is some lingering specter that means its impact on the metagame is greater than its viability warrants. However, I suspect that biases account for the majority of variation, which is not really desirable. Honestly, I think pure viability is a better approach, so I'd definitely be on board with treating all pokemon in the same rank the same way for the reasoning Hipmonlee establishes

Another point I'll add is that if you link tier placement directly to VR, you can potentially expose yourself to distorting the purpose of the VR- last time the cutoff between OU/UU was determined, I recall Cloy being moved up in the VR because people wanted it to be OU, not because it was thought of as more viable (based on the arguments at the time). So if people are making tiering decisions that aren't purely based on viability, you run the risk of trying to make the tail wag the dog, modifying the VR to reflect their idea of what the tier ought to be, rather than pure viability. That said, there are other solutions- you might consider locking the VR before discussing whether or not to revise the division between OU and UU

 

[tratchy]

In my view, a Pokemon being viable in OU is not the same as being a member of OU. Things like Persian, Articuno, and Dragonite can and should see niche use, but that doesn't mean they're integral parts of the tier. If these mons didn't exist, the metagame wouldn't change much, which you can't say about B- and above. The only C-rank mon who I think might belong to OU is Golem, just because I think Rhydon's advantages over it are somewhat overstated.

 

[Tobes]

Based solely on meta impact I would say

Articuno, Victreebel -> OU
Golem -> UU

 

[Ranshiin]

Victreebel ---> OU. Vic is a very good mon, with an amazing dmg vs water types thanks to the high critical rate of razor leaf. Furthermore, Vic surpasses in speed vs chans, lax and especially exeggutor, so is free sleep vs 3 of big 4. Obvious, wrap is one of the best things of this mon. And we can't forget that Vic learns swords dance, with hyper beam is dangerous too. The only problem is the poison type, but with a decent speed and the rol of wrap make an incredible mon.

Persian ----> UU. Ok, has got slash, and we are in a reflect meta, but I think that it's too frail, you need a lot of support to make this mon useful. The attack is nothing from the other world, 70 is meh, persian needs a lot the move screech if you want to make a good dmg with hyper beam, and in the moment to use this move maybe you recieve an attack that destroy this cat. I think that this case is similar of dugtrio, another pokemon with an amazing speed and the access of slash but need screech to make a good dmg without critic.

Golem ----> OU. It's true that golem is outclassed by rhydon actually, but the fact of learn explosion it's important because the dmg still be good and makes the difference with rhydon when we talk about roles. Is speedier than rhydon and do the same thing, counter the electric types, but with the difference that golem explodes, so golem should remain in OU.

Articuno/

Moltres ----> UU. I put both here because I think that the case is similar. Both needs a lot of support to deal with mons like starmie, chansey, slowbro or lapras, and there are common in the meta.

Moltres could has a good role of wrapper, but the accuracy is bad, only 70% with fire spin, so probably miss a lot of this move. It's true that he has an incredible special (125), but his moveset is only fire moves, and we know what happen with this type in rby. Finally, this mon has got a lot of disadvantages: rock, ice, electric and water, and this 4 types are present in the meta.

With Articuno is more or less the same, and incredible special, but a poor moveslot. If we compare with the others ice types, probably we'll see that is a bit outclassed. Lapras for example, has an amazing moveslot, can sleep, can hit vs other water types thanks to tbolt, confuse with confuse ray, b slam if you need a normal type that not hit you (like double edge) or must be need recharge, at least the only thing that articuno wins is the 125 special. Jynx has lovely kiss and psychic with stab, and a good speed. And cloyster has clamp (yes, it's 75%, not good like wrap, but that 5% more than fire spin makes the difference) with an amazing defense and a decent speed. In conclusion, articuno has not a thing that one of this mon could be do easier.

Dragonite -----> OU. Nite is interesting, is broken because has got the terrifying moves, agility and wrap, but he can do more things. He has a nice moveslot, with tbolt, i beam, blizzard, surf, t wave and the increible 134 of physical attack (this means a nice h beam). The mainly problem of this mon is the bad stab moves, but removing this, nite is a serious problem when has the role of last mon, so works good in this point. And no forgive about its defenses, 95 and 100 special, and can survive a blizzard of tauros if nite is full hp, so dragonite can stay in ou perfectly.

(Sorry about my english btw)

 

[Marigold]

I don't really care about Golem, Dragonite, or Persian's placements but I'd like to chip in about a few Pokemon I've used a decent amount.

Victreebel Rise

Rise to OU

Victreebel
- Swords Dance
- Sleep Powder / Stun Spore
- Wrap / Hyper Beam
- Razor Leaf

It's pretty unanimous at this point, Victreebel has demonstrated its potency on paper and in practice. Swords Dance and outspeeding everything it needs to, while also having a bunch of tech options in powders and two really good normal moves make the plant have the ability to beat/cripple whatever it wants. It has the tournament representation and has cleaned up shop countless times, let's give it the tier placement it deserves.

Moltres Rise

Rise to OU

Moltres
- Fire Blast
- Fire Spin
- Hyper Beam
- Agility

I get it, Moltres is definitely a polarizing choice to put on a team. It struggles vs most lead position and sixth position Pokemon, but let's be clear about one thing. Moltres has a very threatening matchup vs the big 4. The best that the big 4 can do is throw in Chansey, which can get burned by fire blast and then fire spinned to pivot out into a normal type wallbreaker safely while the Chansey takes a good amount of chip. Moltres is a Pokemon that tiptoes the line of OU/UU, but I feel that having such good anti-meta qualities ever so barely puts it in OU.

Articuno Drop

Stay in UU

Articuno
- Blizzard
- Agility
- Double-Edge
- Hyper Beam

Articuno is really, really difficult to justify on OU teams. If you want an anti-meta bird, why not just use Moltres? Articuno struggles so much more against the big 4 and I've found it really only fits on teams that go for the freeze, which is an inherently subpar strategy. The tradeoff of a Chansey matchup for a rock matchup is just not worth it, and it's not like Moltres doesn't threaten the rocks anyway. It's unfortunate, I use Articuno quite a bit and really enjoy firing off Blizzard/Ice Beam spam teams but I don't see it making the cut.

 

[sumwun]

What's stopping the discussion from going in circles around "Articuno is worse than all the other OU things, so it should be UU" and "Articuno is better than all the other UU things, so it should be OU"? Sorry if this is a dumb and obvious question, but I'm kind of new here and really want to know what you guys think.

Also can this decision possibly be decided by a public suspect test?

 

[Mister Tim]

What's stopping the discussion from going in circles around "Articuno is worse than all the other OU things, so it should be UU" and "Articuno is better than all the other UU things, so it should be OU"? Sorry if this is a dumb and obvious question, but I'm kind of new here and really want to know what you guys think.

Also can this decision possibly be decided by a public suspect test?

arti is walled by tentacruel and can be parad by some mons like hypno or kadabra, not really a great thread.
Imo we should test only golem in UU

 

[Lusch]

What's stopping the discussion from going in circles around "Articuno is worse than all the other OU things, so it should be UU" and "Articuno is better than all the other UU things, so it should be OU"? Sorry if this is a dumb and obvious question, but I'm kind of new here and really want to know what you guys think.

Also can this decision possibly be decided by a public suspect test?

There's not really anything stopping it going in circles. But at the moment we are just gathering opinions to get a picture of what the players think about the C-ranked Pokemon. Those are the Pokemon in question which might either be classiefied OU or not. And that is a question purely based on their viability in the tier (it's not a question of wether or not they are broken in UU! If that were the case we could still ban them from UU.)
Which brings me to the next question: A public suspect test on this is not going to happen because the question we ask is not if they are too good for UU, the question is wether they should be OU. Also way to little people would really be interested in it to have any weight as a proper suspect test.

 

[Enigami]

Vic = OU, how is this a question? It's B+ in VR, not C.

As for the others, are we talking about Ladder viability or Tournament viability?

Because Golem might be fine in terms of Ladder, but in tournaments Golem has had abysmal usage and usually lost its games when it was used. Dragonite similarly I think is going to be more effective on Ladder than in tournaments, where opponents will know the best ways to deal with it.

 

[EB0LA]

Thing is Slowbro usage is really low as well. Probably lowest of any of the OU mons, but you can never count it out. So how do we draw the line between usage & viability? How is it decided what goes UU & what goes OU. What is the usage to win rate line in deciding this. How do meta shifts affect this, will Pokemon rise & fall in and out of OU? We need to make a solid answer & lock the OU for ever. This is an old gen & if for example Slowbro now becomes UU, this would drastically change the way we play RBY UU, and there for completely change the tiers after (RU, NU, ...) & basically cause them to have to be completely retested and reworked to see what tier they belong in now.

 

[sumwun]

There's not really anything stopping it going in circles. But at the moment we are just gathering opinions to get a picture of what the players think about the C-ranked Pokemon. Those are the Pokemon in question which might either be classiefied OU or not. And that is a question purely based on their viability in the tier (it's not a question of wether or not they are broken in UU! If that were the case we could still ban them from UU.)

One idea I have is that the number of Pokemon in OU should be (close to) the number of Pokemon that get 3.4% usage. The number is around 18 for RBY, so based on this proposal and the current VRs, the OU tier would be the top 18 (ie. everything above Persian and Dragonite).

 

[Enigami]

I meant to emphasize Golem's lack of results over lack of usage, but the way I wrote it suggested I meant the other way. Sample size is VERY low, but in the 2018 & 2019 World Cup of Pokemon and the 2018 RBY Invitational on Pokemon Perfect, Slowbro fluctuated wildly (20%, 80% and 50% respectively) but consistently held a higher winrate than Golem (0%, 33% and 33%). Now, that could be because of bias on the part of top players avoiding using it, causing Golem's winrate to be lower than it should be. But still, Rhydon was used in tournaments almost 16 times more often than Golem and had a roughly 50% winrate over the course of 3 major tournaments vs. Golem's average 27%, perhaps there's a good reason for that?

Edit: I've convinced myself on an opinion on Golem, and it's that Golem should be UU

 

[Ortheore]

I meant to emphasize Golem's lack of results over lack of usage, but the way I wrote it suggested I meant the other way. Sample size is VERY low, but in the 2018 & 2019 World Cup of Pokemon and the 2018 RBY Invitational on Pokemon Perfect, Slowbro fluctuated wildly (20%, 80% and 50% respectively) but consistently held a higher winrate than Golem (0%, 33% and 33%). Now, that could be because of bias on the part of top players avoiding using it, causing Golem's winrate to be lower than it should be. But still, Rhydon was used in tournaments almost 16 times more often than Golem and had a roughly 50% winrate over the course of 3 major tournaments vs. Golem's average 27%, perhaps there's a good reason for that?

Edit: I've convinced myself on an opinion on Golem, and it's that Golem should be UU

Golem also went 3/6 in SPL this year, which brings it to a 6/17 win rate. Idk if there were any other tours that collected usage statistics, if there were, we should include them as well. With that being said though, I honestly think tournament win % is such a bad metric that it does more harm than good. We just don't collect enough data for it to mean anything for less used pokemon, whereas staple pokemon that are used enough to matter tend to have win rates so close to 50% that you can't really draw conclusions from them either. That leaves instances where it's actually useful to be overwhelmingly rare. And as you say, there's still potential biases that can distort things.

Compiling data from all tournaments where usage/win % is collected helps alleviate the issue of small sample size, but it doesn't eliminate it entirely, while it also doesn't address the issue of win % converging on 50%. The frustrating thing is that tournament win % is in theory something that should really matter since it should measure how a pokemon performs at the highest level. Maybe there's some way of processing the data to convert it into something more useful? Idk.

That said, I'm only complaining about win %. I agree that Golem should be UU

 

[EB0LA]

Compiled the usage together for easier view. Added Slowbro to have a "bottom of barrel" RBY OU usage line.

Raw Data RBY Tours 2018-2019

RBY Invitational (2018)
Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
Slowbro | 28 | 8.38% | 50.00% |
Victreebel | 25 | 7.49% | 60.00% |
Golem | 6 | 1.80% | 33.33% |
Articuno | 6 | 1.80% | 33.33% |
Dragonite | 5 | 1.50% | 60.00% |
Persian | 3 | 0.90% | 66.67% |
Moltres | 1 | 0.30% | 0.00% |

WCOP (2018)
Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
Slowbro | 5 | 4.24% | 20.00% |
Persian | 4 | 3.39% | 25.00% |
Victreebel | 2 | 1.69% | 0.00% |
Golem | 2 | 1.69% | 0.00% |
Articuno | 0 | 0.00% | - |
Dragonite | 0 | 0.00% | - |
Moltres | 0 | 0.00% | - |

SPL IX (2018)
Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
Slowbro | 9 | 3.54% | 55.56% |
Victreebel | 5 | 1.97% | 80.00% |
Golem | 4 | 1.57% | 25.00% |
Persian | 4 | 1.57% | 25.00% |
Moltres | 1 | 0.39% | 0.00% |
Dragonite | 1 | 0.39% | 0.00% |
Articuno | 0 | 0.00% | - |
----------------------------------------------------
WCOP (2019)
Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
Victreebel | 15 | 8.52% | 26.67% |
Slowbro | 5 | 2.84% | 80.00% |
Golem | 3 | 1.70% | 33.33% |
Articuno | 2 | 1.14% | 100.00% |
Dragonite | 1 | 0.57% | 100.00% |
Moltres | 0 | 0.00% | - |
Persian | 0 | 0.00% | - |

SPL X (2019)
Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
Victreebel | 17 | 7.33% | 52.94% |
Slowbro | 8 | 3.45% | 50.00% |
Golem | 6 | 2.59% | 50.00% |
Articuno | 4 | 1.72% | 100.00% |
Moltres | 1 | 0.43% | 100.00% |
Dragonite | 1 | 0.43% | 0.00% |
Persian | 1 | 0.43% | 0.00% |

ROAPL V (2019)
Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
Victreebel | 30 | 9.74% | 50.00% |
Articuno | 10 | 3.25% | 40.00% |
Slowbro | 4 | 1.30% | 75.00% |
Moltres | 3 | 0.97% | 33.33% |
Persian | 3 | 0.97% | 33.33% |
Golem | 3 | 0.97% | 0.00% |
Dragonite | 1 | 0.32% | 0.00% |

TOTAL 2018:
Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
1 | Slowbro | 42 | 5.39% | 45.19% |
2 | Victreebel | 32 | 3.72% | 46.67% |
3 | Golem | 12 | 1.69% | 19.44% |
4 | Persian | 11 | 1.95% | 38.89% |
5 | Articuno | 6 | 0.60% | 33.33% |
6 | Dragonite | 6 | 0.63% | 30.00% |
7 | Moltres | 2 | 0.23% | 0.00% |

TOTAL 2019:
Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
1 | Victreebel | 62 | 8.53% | 43.20% |
2 | Slowbro | 17 | 2.53% | 68.33% |
3 | Articuno | 14 | 3.31% | 70.00% |
4 | Golem | 12 | 1.75% | 27.78% |
5 | Persian | 4 | 0.47% | 16.67% |
6 | Moltres | 4 | 0.93% | 66.67% |
7 | Dragonite | 3 | 0.44% | 33.33% |

=====================================
TOTAL COMBINED:
Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
1 | Victreebel | 94 | 6.13% | 44.94% |
2 | Slowbro | 59 | 3.96% | 56.76% |
3 | Golem | 24 | 1.72% | 23.61% |
4 | Articuno | 20 | 1.95% | 51.67% |
5 | Persian | 15 | 1.21% | 27.78% |
6 | Dragonite | 9 | 0.54% | 31.66% |
7 | Moltres | 6 | 0.58% | 33.34% |
=====================================

After review it seems like a clear cut that all C ranks are indeed UU. Another interesting bit is the change of meta with the rise of Victreebel, and decline of Slowbro. Where in 2019 Slowbro is just ever slightly more used then the rest of the C ranks. Do you guys think Slowbro may fall into UU? What would the argument be for this, as we all know Slowbro does belong in OU, but usage has declined severally. Is the line of whats OU & not going to keep changing with the rise & fall of what is currently meta? If we throw Golem into the UU mix now, and then fine we test the new UU, it's all good & settled, then Slowbro's low usage continues, what are we just going to throw Slowbro into UU too & have to completely re-do the tier all over again?

 

[tratchy]

Compiled the usage together for easier view. Added Slowbro to have a "bottom of barrel" RBY OU usage line.

Raw Data RBY Tours 2018-2019

RBY Invitational (2018)
Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
Slowbro | 28 | 8.38% | 50.00% |
Victreebel | 25 | 7.49% | 60.00% |
Golem | 6 | 1.80% | 33.33% |
Articuno | 6 | 1.80% | 33.33% |
Dragonite | 5 | 1.50% | 60.00% |
Persian | 3 | 0.90% | 66.67% |
Moltres | 1 | 0.30% | 0.00% |

WCOP (2018)
Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
Slowbro | 5 | 4.24% | 20.00% |
Persian | 4 | 3.39% | 25.00% |
Victreebel | 2 | 1.69% | 0.00% |
Golem | 2 | 1.69% | 0.00% |
Articuno | 0 | 0.00% | - |
Dragonite | 0 | 0.00% | - |
Moltres | 0 | 0.00% | - |

SPL IX (2018)
Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
Slowbro | 9 | 3.54% | 55.56% |
Victreebel | 5 | 1.97% | 80.00% |
Golem | 4 | 1.57% | 25.00% |
Persian | 4 | 1.57% | 25.00% |
Moltres | 1 | 0.39% | 0.00% |
Dragonite | 1 | 0.39% | 0.00% |
Articuno | 0 | 0.00% | - |
----------------------------------------------------
WCOP (2019)
Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
Victreebel | 15 | 8.52% | 26.67% |
Slowbro | 5 | 2.84% | 80.00% |
Golem | 3 | 1.70% | 33.33% |
Articuno | 2 | 1.14% | 100.00% |
Dragonite | 1 | 0.57% | 100.00% |
Moltres | 0 | 0.00% | - |
Persian | 0 | 0.00% | - |

SPL X (2019)
Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
Victreebel | 17 | 7.33% | 52.94% |
Slowbro | 8 | 3.45% | 50.00% |
Golem | 6 | 2.59% | 50.00% |
Articuno | 4 | 1.72% | 100.00% |
Moltres | 1 | 0.43% | 100.00% |
Dragonite | 1 | 0.43% | 0.00% |
Persian | 1 | 0.43% | 0.00% |

ROAPL V (2019)
Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
Victreebel | 30 | 9.74% | 50.00% |
Articuno | 10 | 3.25% | 40.00% |
Slowbro | 4 | 1.30% | 75.00% |
Moltres | 3 | 0.97% | 33.33% |
Persian | 3 | 0.97% | 33.33% |
Golem | 3 | 0.97% | 0.00% |
Dragonite | 1 | 0.32% | 0.00% |

TOTAL 2018:
Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
1 | Slowbro | 42 | 5.39% | 45.19% |
2 | Victreebel | 32 | 3.72% | 46.67% |
3 | Golem | 12 | 1.69% | 19.44% |
4 | Persian | 11 | 1.95% | 38.89% |
5 | Articuno | 6 | 0.60% | 33.33% |
6 | Dragonite | 6 | 0.63% | 30.00% |
7 | Moltres | 2 | 0.23% | 0.00% |

TOTAL 2019:
Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
1 | Victreebel | 62 | 8.53% | 43.20% |
2 | Slowbro | 17 | 2.53% | 68.33% |
3 | Articuno | 14 | 3.31% | 70.00% |
4 | Golem | 12 | 1.75% | 27.78% |
5 | Persian | 4 | 0.47% | 16.67% |
6 | Moltres | 4 | 0.93% | 66.67% |
7 | Dragonite | 3 | 0.44% | 33.33% |

=====================================
TOTAL COMBINED:
Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
1 | Victreebel | 94 | 6.13% | 44.94% |
2 | Slowbro | 59 | 3.96% | 56.76% |
3 | Golem | 24 | 1.72% | 23.61% |
4 | Articuno | 20 | 1.95% | 51.67% |
5 | Persian | 15 | 1.21% | 27.78% |
6 | Dragonite | 9 | 0.54% | 31.66% |
7 | Moltres | 6 | 0.58% | 33.34% |
=====================================

After review it seems like a clear cut that all C ranks are indeed UU. Another interesting bit is the change of meta with the rise of Victreebel, and decline of Slowbro. Where in 2019 Slowbro is just ever slightly more used then the rest of the C ranks. Do you guys think Slowbro may fall into UU? What would the argument be for this, as we all know Slowbro does belong in OU, but usage has declined severally. Is the line of whats OU & not going to keep changing with the rise & fall of what is currently meta? If we throw Golem into the UU mix now, and then fine we test the new UU, it's all good & settled, then Slowbro's low usage continues, what are we just going to throw Slowbro into UU too & have to completely re-do the tier all over again?

The OU/UU line should take the ebb and flow of the metagame into account. There will be spells where certain Pokemon are hurt by metagame changes, but they'll always rebound eventually (Rhydon and Jynx are good examples). I don't think Slowbro will ever fall into UU territory.

In general though, I don't think any Pokemon should rise to OU or drop to UU after the boundary is decided. RBY tends to centralize around a few Pokemon, so if Pokemon keep moving around, the lower tiers will never stabilize.

 

[Lusch]

After review it seems like a clear cut that all C ranks are indeed UU. Another interesting bit is the change of meta with the rise of Victreebel, and decline of Slowbro. Where in 2019 Slowbro is just ever slightly more used then the rest of the C ranks. Do you guys think Slowbro may fall into UU? What would the argument be for this, as we all know Slowbro does belong in OU, but usage has declined severally. Is the line of whats OU & not going to keep changing with the rise & fall of what is currently meta? If we throw Golem into the UU mix now, and then fine we test the new UU, it's all good & settled, then Slowbro's low usage continues, what are we just going to throw Slowbro into UU too & have to completely re-do the tier all over again?

It's not actually about usage. Old gens have a too small sample size to use that as a main criteria. We tier based on viability. Basically the idea is that a Pokemon who is good now in RBY will always be good in RBY, good meaning OU here. Slowbro (no matter the usage it gets) will always be a good Pokemon, worthy to belong to the best (OU) in RBY. Those Pokemon find themselves in the higher ranks (B and upwards) and it's reasonable to assume that they will stay there. Everything in C has either a really hard time being consistent enough or is mostly outclassed by something higher. Something you cannot say for any of the B ranks since even the similar ones differ enough. Those Pokemon should be what makes up the tier, and we are trying to answer the question if the C-ranks should belong there as well or not (or part of them), which is what this thread was meant to discuss.

Not that I want to derail this discussion into something it should not be, but Slowbro will always have the "dangerous Amnesia cleaner" ability, no matter what happens. If anything is on the fall right now, it's probably Lapras, as people are using more and more Cloyster in its place, which is just a better (the best) check to IceLax. But even then, Lapras will always have access to Sing (and Thunderbolt) to differntiate itself and give it the ability to turn games around in the right circumstances which, I believe, will be enough to prevent it from becoming the next Golem.

 

[Mr.E]

Wasn't more than 2-3 years ago that Golem and Rhydon's usage stats were totally swapped. While distinct, they're too similar without a clear-cut winner between the two I don't think they should be separated.

Victreebel has earned its place and everything below Golem is fake and gay (except Persian )

 

[Torchic]

I think there should be a new UUBL tier for the new UU.
For example Duggy is really broken in new UU tier for good coverage, easy prediction and hight crit rate. It is not good enough in OU so it should be BL I think.

 

[Lusch]

I think there should be a new UUBL tier for the new UU.
For example Duggy is really broken in new UU tier for good coverage, easy prediction and hight crit rate. It is not good enough in OU so it should be BL I think.

Of course there will be, that is in case something turns out to be broken/banworthy in UU. First however, we need to decide what is actually OU, which this thread is for. After that is done, we play UU with what is allowed then (which looks to be the same but - Victreebel + Golem). I have played the UU as it currently is (which is again, not much different from what it will be), and I can guarantee you that Dugtrio is very far from being anything close to banworthy. With Pokemon like Dragonite, Gyarados, Vaporeon, Kangskhan etc. in the tier, Dugtrio is definitely kept in check.