OU RBY OU Viability Ranking (2016 to 2020)

Status
Not open for further replies.
One thing I find strange is that people insist on replacing eggy with bel instead of just using the two together. I’ve never understood why. It makes you double weak to zapdos and ice, but any water filler makes you double weak to zapdos and rhydon makes you double weak to ice.

What makes it funnier is that with the exception of zapdos, victrebel is good into every other common filler, seeing as most of them are waters or rhydon.

What makes it even funnier is that the biggest issue with bel comps is that they don’t have a good switch in to rhydon, but running egg alongside it patches that back up.

Bel is like a reverse-zapdos. Zapdos likes versing other filler except rhydon, and bel likes versing every filler except zapdos.
 
Last edited:
One thing I find strange is that people insist on replacing eggy with bel instead of just using the two together. I’ve never understood why. It makes you double weak to zapdos and ice, but any water filler makes you double weak to zapdos and rhydon makes you double weak to ice.
I really disagree with this line of reasoning, as stacking a single weakness is extremely different to stacking multiple weaknesses making this a flawed comparison imo. If you only have one stacked weakness I think that's easy to compensate for, but it becomes exponentially more difficult if there's multiple weaknesses to patch up.

Otherwise, I've never really been super keen on the offensive synergy between the two either, but I've never actually tried it. I guess with Star/Zam leads not absorbing para as much these days, Egg's ability to status or blow up on them is more valuable (assuming it can get past Chansey or whatever else), but idk, maybe I'll try it eventually.
 
I think the gold standard for a Vic team is pairing it with Rhydon; you get insurance vs Zap, lots of pressure vs opposing Egg, and predictable play patterns around Wrap to generate free turns for Rhydon.

:Starmie::chansey::snorlax::tauros::victreebel::rhydon:
SurfMie / BoltBeam Chans / Reflect IceLax / standard Bull / dual powder Vic / standard Rhydon

Mie and Ice coverage normals give you enough insurance vs Rhydon to drop Egg. SurfMie pressures Zam/Jynx, which is needed since it’s the only Psy/Ice resist. Jynx can be a bit of a bitch but that’s no different than playing with any Rhydon Psychic Big 4 team.
 
I really disagree with this line of reasoning, as stacking a single weakness is extremely different to stacking multiple weaknesses making this a flawed comparison imo. If you only have one stacked weakness I think that's easy to compensate for, but it becomes exponentially more difficult if there's multiple weaknesses to patch up.

Otherwise, I've never really been super keen on the offensive synergy between the two either, but I've never actually tried it. I guess with Star/Zam leads not absorbing para as much these days, Egg's ability to status or blow up on them is more valuable (assuming it can get past Chansey or whatever else), but idk, maybe I'll try it eventually.
The thing is it’s only one double weakness per battle. If they run zapdos you’re double weak to it, but bel is still more useful in this scenario than zapdos is vs rhydon. If they run ice then there’s no zapdos. So really you’re still in the same position as a water team against zapdos or a rhydon team against a water.
I think the gold standard for a Vic team is pairing it with Rhydon; you get insurance vs Zap, lots of pressure vs opposing Egg, and predictable play patterns around Wrap to generate free turns for Rhydon.

:Starmie::chansey::snorlax::tauros::victreebel::rhydon:
SurfMie / BoltBeam Chans / Reflect IceLax / standard Bull / dual powder Vic / standard Rhydon

Mie and Ice coverage normals give you enough insurance vs Rhydon to drop Egg. SurfMie pressures Zam/Jynx, which is needed since it’s the only Psy/Ice resist. Jynx can be a bit of a bitch but that’s no different than playing with any Rhydon Psychic Big 4 team.
It’s all well and good to have rhydon to cover zap but you’re still relying on not letting their rhydon get in. If it gets in you have no good switch in. Starmie can’t repeatedly switch in, and it’ll most likely be slept anyway. I suppose having ice on everything does help a lot though.

Also I think chansey should be reflect ice beam. Rhydon was better in the boltbeam days because if chansey was paralysed you just needed to get rhydon in on any move except ice beam and it won the MU. Reflect icebeam hard counters rhydon.
 

Amaranth

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Moderator
The reason Victreebel has fallen off a bit lately is that people aren't as eager to let their fast psychics eat a TWave turn 1, and it's a hell of a lot easier to switch into wrap with a healthy Alakazam or even Starmie compared to a paralyzed one. Victreebel's entire niche worked well because it outsped 4 things nearly every time (paralyzed lead, eggy, chansey, lax), often had good match up against the 5th (rhydon especially, but water types were fine too with Zap being the only notable bad mu), and the 6th was a Tauros - you'll pretty much always take crippling Tauros if given the chance even if it costs you Vic's life. Being faster + having Wrap and Sleep Powder = hitting Victreebel used to be impossibly difficult for most teams.

We're seeing a lot less Eggys in favor of more Mies and more Jolts and more Gengars, all of these are awful things to play against for Vic (maybe not as much Mie because it has to respect the Leaf, but definitely the other two), as well as more people preserving an intact fast Psychic-type when they switch their TW leads out turn 1, which just means that the match ups where Vic can do what it wants are much more restricted. Vic was a great answer to the Lead / Big 4 / Last meta that lasted so long, but a lot of recent adaptments have shaken up that rule and now that his match ups aren't as flawless he's regressed a lot - keep in mind this is a pokemon that was allowed in RBY UU for the longest time and wasn't a problem there, because despite things being generally much weaker in UU they were also a lot faster, and the speed disadvantage made Vic pretty pathetic.

For an interesting take on teambuilding with Victreebel in 2020 let me redirect you to the team Troller used in this game - it has very aggressive trading tools (Snorlax exploding, Zapdos, Tauros) that allow you to reduce the amount of mons you need to worry about + three very different TWavers that are able to lure different things and land paralysis on them (Alakazam, Zapdos, Dnite) + Victreebel as a cleaner rather than an early breaker. It's a lot easier to outspeed the entire enemy team when the enemy team only consists of 2 to 4 mons. A lot of things went right for him in the game itself (and Kaz even played into his gameplan) but I think if we're ever going to see a Vic resurgence it's going to be with this sort of hyper aggressive team structure, because the way people are playing RBY currently he's not going to be terribly viable as an early game piece
 
The reason Victreebel has fallen off a bit lately is that people aren't as eager to let their fast psychics eat a TWave turn 1, and it's a hell of a lot easier to switch into wrap with a healthy Alakazam or even Starmie compared to a paralyzed one. Victreebel's entire niche worked well because it outsped 4 things nearly every time (paralyzed lead, eggy, chansey, lax), often had good match up against the 5th (rhydon especially, but water types were fine too with Zap being the only notable bad mu), and the 6th was a Tauros - you'll pretty much always take crippling Tauros if given the chance even if it costs you Vic's life. Being faster + having Wrap and Sleep Powder = hitting Victreebel used to be impossibly difficult for most teams.

We're seeing a lot less Eggys in favor of more Mies and more Jolts and more Gengars, all of these are awful things to play against for Vic (maybe not as much Mie because it has to respect the Leaf, but definitely the other two), as well as more people preserving an intact fast Psychic-type when they switch their TW leads out turn 1, which just means that the match ups where Vic can do what it wants are much more restricted. Vic was a great answer to the Lead / Big 4 / Last meta that lasted so long, but a lot of recent adaptments have shaken up that rule and now that his match ups aren't as flawless he's regressed a lot - keep in mind this is a pokemon that was allowed in RBY UU for the longest time and wasn't a problem there, because despite things being generally much weaker in UU they were also a lot faster, and the speed disadvantage made Vic pretty pathetic.

For an interesting take on teambuilding with Victreebel in 2020 let me redirect you to the team Troller used in this game - it has very aggressive trading tools (Snorlax exploding, Zapdos, Tauros) that allow you to reduce the amount of mons you need to worry about + three very different TWavers that are able to lure different things and land paralysis on them (Alakazam, Zapdos, Dnite) + Victreebel as a cleaner rather than an early breaker. It's a lot easier to outspeed the entire enemy team when the enemy team only consists of 2 to 4 mons. A lot of things went right for him in the game itself (and Kaz even played into his gameplan) but I think if we're ever going to see a Vic resurgence it's going to be with this sort of hyper aggressive team structure, because the way people are playing RBY currently he's not going to be terribly viable as an early game piece
As you said he got extremely lucky that game and Katz’s play was highly questionable, but I’ve gotta give props for mid-game twave dnite.

Personally I think dnite is under-explored because it got pidgdeon-holed as an agi-wrapper. It’s a very good support wrapper. When I used to run wrap teams I often used it more for free switches mid-game than I did for sweeping. It was so rare that it swept that I dropped it for tauros.
 

kjdaas

this girl rly slapped some letters together huh
is a Community Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnus
Now that the last SPL containing RBY has ended and RBY Cup signups are currently open (signup here if you haven't). I think this is a good time to update the VRs.

Last time I pm'd roughly 20 RBYers that I thought I had a good knowledge of the tier by either playing on the big stage, doing well in the Old Gen Circuit or frequently topping the ladder. However, this time I want to make it publically known that we are working on a VR update so that people who might want to contribute, can also join in. Because the idea and method were taken from McMeghan and vapicuno, I'll use this quote from Roro to explain the method:

I want every "relevant" RBY players to PM me their own ranking. I will then make an average of everyone's ranking to reach the final result (similarly to the SPL pre-season power rankings and what was done here last time). I plan to disclose the full results and show who voted what exactly (unless they don't want to be revealed). I will also probably discount every pokemon's highest and lowest individual ranking to avoid outliers.

I want you guys to give this post a quick read, and if you care about this thing, to send me YOUR own viability ranking by PM on here or on discord (kjdaas#5961). Please also mention if you'd like your ranking to be associated with your name or not. Also, if you know anyone you'd consider as qualified enough to send their take on the matter, let them know and tell them to PM me with their ranking too.

The only thing I'll do is probably decide myself whose vote gets to be taken into account for the averaged result at the end. Feel free to ask me in PM if you'd make the cut so you don't waste time sending a ranking for no reason.

In the meantime, feel free to influence everyone's vote by pushing for or against various Pokemons.
I encourage everyone to get a discussion going or post their rankings, but I'm unsure if I should post mine because I'm not considered a top ranked RBYer. Also I would love for people to chime in on the D and E ranked mons, even if they fall outside of your rankings, so that we can clean them up once and for all.

Please feel free to send me your rankings, especially if you're an active RBYer. Share this with your friends who play the tier. The more the better.
HLing a bunch of people: Nails, Amaranth, MetalGro$$, HML am, Sceptross, Heroic Troller, ErPeris, Kaz, Bedschibaer, Alexander., rozes, Kingler12345, Djokra, Lusch, FriendOfMrGolem120, EB0LA, SaDiSTiCNarwhal, Hipmonlee, roudolf13, marcoasd, Peasounay, Diegolh, Maya Chansey, Alpha Male Psyduck, Enigami, teal6, Genesis7, Disaster Area, Mister Tim, SoulWind, and SMB
 

Hipmonlee

Have a nice day
is a Community Contributoris a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Four-Time Past WCoP Champion
Tauros
Chansey
Snorlax
Exeggutor
Starmie
Alakazam
Rhydon
Zapdos
Jolteon
Jynx
Cloyster
Gengar
Victreebel
Golem
Lapras
Slowbro
Dragonite
Persian
Hypno
Articuno
Moltres
Kangaskhan
Sandslash
Kabutops
Clefable
Kingler
Porygon
Poliwrath
Tentacruel
Pinsir
Dodrio
Machamp
Golduck
Raticate
Venusaur
Omastar
Tangela
Dugtrio
Charizard
Nidoqueen
Nidoking
Gyarados
Raichu
Electrode
Ninetales
Rapidash
Flareon
Arcanine
Muk
Weezing
Hitmonlee
Primeape
Arbok

Then at this point I was tossing up Wigglytuff, Venomoth, Vaporeon, Pidgeot and Fearow. All pokemon that are just utterly outclassed by something else. Although, in theory they are probably all better than Arbok...
 
Last edited:
Tauros
Snorlax
Chansey
Exeggutor
Starmie
Alakazam
Zapdos
Rhydon
Cloyster
Jynx
Jolteon
Lapras
Slowbro
Gengar
Victreebel
Golem
Moltres
Articuno
Persian
Dragonite
Hypno
Porygon
Sandslash
Venusaur
Kangaskhan
Kingler
Pinsir
Clefable
Flareon
Dodrio
Kabutops
Raticate
Poliwrath
Omastar
Golduck

I'm not 100% settled on these. Also note that some of the fringe pokemon I have little practical experience with, and I'm basing my opinion on prior discussions and theorymon, so there are question marks for some of them. Anything not listed I regard as unviable, or likely to be unviable in cases where I haven't had much first-hand experience

Honestly I haven't got a whole lot else to add since I last commented on D and E. Suffice to say that a lot of the pokemon Hipmonlee put at the end of their list I think aren't worth mentioning outside a theoretical F rank or honourable mentions list- most of them have some interesting traits but aren't really worth using imo. Some of them I think are overwhelmingly terrible- looking at Arcanine, Tangela, Primeape and Electrode here
 
I will post a list but I don't really think the usual Smogon tiering system works for RBY tbh. The top mons are SO MUCH BETTER than the other ones that I see no use for anything outside of like a dozen of them. The tiers themselves are the only differentiation in my head, the order in the tier is meaningless.

S+
Snorlax
Tauros

S
Chansey
Eggy

A
Alakazam
Starmie

B
Cloyster
Zapdos
Gengar
Rhydon
Golem
Victreebell
Jynx
Persian
Dragonite
Jolteon
Slowbro
Lapras
you guys get the idea the other stuff you can sometimes use in OU but isn't a staple
 
Last edited:

Mister Tim

Жарю клойстеров
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
S+
Tauros
S
Chansey
Snorlax
S-
Exeggutor
A+
Starmie
A
Alakazam
Rhydon
Zapdos
Jolteon
Jynx
Cloyster
B
Gengar
Victreebel
Lapras
Slowbro
B-
Dragonite
Persian
Articuno
Hypno

C and worse, just copied
Moltres
Kangaskhan
Sandslash
Kabutops
Golem
Kingler
Porygon
Poliwrath
Tentacruel
Pinsir
Dodrio
Machamp
Golduck
Venusaur
Omastar
Tangela
Dugtrio
Charizard
Nidoqueen
Nidoking
Gyarados
Raichu
Electrode
Ninetales
Clefable
Rapidash
Flareon
Arcanine
Hitmonlee
Primeape
Arbok
 

vapicuno

你的价值比自己想象中的所有还要低。我却早已解脱,享受幸福
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Past WCoP Champion
The tiers themselves are the only differentiation in my head, the order in the tier is meaningless.
I don't play rby, but the idea of mons being indistinguishable in a tier is what I try to incorporate into quantitative analyses of VRs.

This year, I might try to figure out if there are camps too. kjdaas hmu when the data is collected, I'd like to go through them before you release the results just to convey what I've learnt from doing these VR things for the other gens too.
 

Amaranth

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Moderator
1 Snorlax
2 Tauros
3 Chansey
4 Starmie
5 Exeggutor
6 Alakazam
7 Zapdos
8 Jynx
9 Rhydon
10 Jolteon
11 Gengar
12 Cloyster
13 Lapras
14 Articuno
15 Victreebel
16 Slowbro
17 Golem
18 Moltres
19 Dragonite
20 Porygon
21 Hypno
22 Persian
23 Poliwrath
24 Sandslash
25 Flareon
26 Kangaskhan
27 Kingler
 
I don't play rby, but the idea of mons being indistinguishable in a tier is what I try to incorporate into quantitative analyses of VRs.

This year, I might try to figure out if there are camps too. kjdaas hmu when the data is collected, I'd like to go through them before you release the results just to convey what I've learnt from doing these VR things for the other gens too.
yeah it'd be neat to see. RBY falls so clearly into camps in my head. like every single team starts with genuinely 75% of the same pokemon for me (for others its 50% depending on how they see eggy). but what this means is like, i might THINK snorlax is better than chansey, but i also think that quite literally every single RBY team should have both snorlax AND chansey, so what's the point of thinking of them in different tiers?

my A tier is just "the fifth/sixth mon you see nearly all the time" and the B tier is "the fifth/sixth mon you see some of the time"
 

Enigami

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcher
Moderator
My rankings from OU mons to the niche mons at the farthest edge of viability:
S
Snorlax
Tauros
Chansey

A+
Starmie
Exeggutor
Alakazam

A-
Rhydon
Jynx
Cloyster

B+
Gengar
Jolteon
Zapdos
Victreebel

B-
Lapras
Articuno
Slowbro
Moltres

C
Dragonite
Golem
Persian

D
Sandslash
Kingler
Porygon
Pinsir
Hypno

E
Kangaskhan
Kabutops
Nidoqueen
Omastar
Golduck
Poliwrath
Flareon
Venusaur

E (Questionable)
Machamp
Clefable
Gyarados
Dodrio
Arbok
Tentacruel
Raticate
Hitmonlee
Dragonair

I've come around to Snorlax being top, as well as Starmie possibly being the 4th best mon. The latter is frustrating, because an unparalyzed Starmie is perhaps the biggest gatekeeper to a lot of the low tiers I enjoy playing with. Zapdos I might be too harsh with, but to me it's too much of a liability with it being near dead weight against Rhydon (and somehow I very often manage to use Zapdos just as my opponent uses Rhydon) and not quite strong enough to feel it is worth it when it isn't facing Rhydon (or Jolteon or Golem). Jolteon's rise and better showing in SPL only helps to reinforce my current feelings that Jolteon is the better Electric. I think that's it for my more controversial OU placements.

Then at this point I was tossing up Wigglytuff, Venomoth, Vaporeon, Pidgeot and Fearow. All pokemon that are just utterly outclassed by something else. Although, in theory they are probably all better than Arbok...
Them's fightin' words! In a vacuum, perhaps, but in the context of OU, Arbok has an actual niche that, due to redundancy being a strength for that niche, makes it usable. I speak of course of para-wrap spam, where being technically outclassed by Dragonite and Victreebel in its role doesn't really matter. Unfortunately the meta moved away from classic S4 + leads trading para + possible slow 6th which was the ideal matchup for Arbok & co to choke out the competition with forced paralysis and wrap spam, so until I find the right adaptation to find success I can't champion it like I'd want to.
 
Last edited:

Hipmonlee

Have a nice day
is a Community Contributoris a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Four-Time Past WCoP Champion
Them's fightin' words! In a vacuum, perhaps, but in the context of OU, Arbok has an actual niche that, due to redundancy being a strength for that niche, makes it usable. I speak of course of para-wrap spam, where being technically outclassed by Dragonite and Victreebel in its role doesn't really matter.
Yeah I agree, that's why I actually rated Arbok and didnt bother rating the other guys.
 

kjdaas

this girl rly slapped some letters together huh
is a Community Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnus
I will post a list but I don't really think the usual Smogon tiering system works for RBY tbh. The top mons are SO MUCH BETTER than the other ones that I see no use for anything outside of like a dozen of them. The tiers themselves are the only differentiation in my head, the order in the tier is meaningless.

S+
Snorlax
Tauros

S
Chansey
Eggy

A
Alakazam
Starmie

B
Cloyster
Zapdos
Gengar
Jynx
Rhydon
Golem
Victreebell
Jynx
Persian
Dragonite
Jolteon
Slowbro
Lapras
you guys get the idea the other stuff you can sometimes use in OU but isn't a staple

Is your list ordered, e.g. you think Snorlax>Tauros and Alakazam>Starmie? Also jynx is twice in there, which placement is correct?
 

Heroic Troller

Through the Sea of Time
is a Tiering Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
World Defender
They are in power order, so Snorlax is second best mon to me.
is first not because "lol crit memes", but for one critical reason, he's the de-facto only universal revenge killer in the tier, one that can apply damage to everything that dares to switch in. There some candidates for the role but no one can do that against every team. Zapdos is stopped by Rhydon+Jolteon/Dodrio by Rhydon/Persian by Gengar/Snorlax is too slow to apply pressure vs unparad Chansey. In short Tauros holds a niche that no one can take, you wouldn't even be able to use sleep properly without him pressuring the slept mon after.

aside from Tauros is the only pokemon i would never drop on any team, even for fun purposes, that's what grants him the S+ in my eyes. I don't need to tell why he is so strong, with a lot of possibilities for the 4 moveslots. He wouldn't be THAT broken without Chansey to burn sleep on though, but we do need Chansey for the special barrage.

vs
The star climbed the food chain pretty well lately, with teams being more and more hostile toward Zapdos, deserving the S- to me and the status of big 5. I still can't rank Exeggutor lower though, the combination of Psychic type+Explosion (backed up by amazing stats) is just too much, it allows to choose and safely explode any target. To this add that it is the only Rhydon check in the tier, and there it is the undisputed number 4. (I refuse to hear any comment about Starmie being a Rhydon check, if your Starmie possess the ability Limber, i don't care, mine never did).

was always the worse of the two Recover leads to me, the weak link of the chain, and i still think it, but spamming Starmie only would never be good, Mega Drain Eggy would destroy you. Even if it is flawed being able to fill the lead role as well as he does is plenty of accomplishment already. But the real deal with him is the rise of Eggyless teams, without his biggest enemy around back Zam gained a lot of power and popularity.

is my biggest gripe, if anyone spoke with me prior to last spl, he would know Zapdos was always the real missing big 5 to me, not Starmie. His stats are all around disgusting, leaving little to be desired, i'd even go as far as saying that without Jolteon or Rhydon, Zapdos is a hair better than Tauros itself. Why though? First, i always found harder to switch on Zapdos, Tauros might have the best coverage, but it is spreaded through 4 moveslots, all of them needed, Body Slam, Hyper Beam when something isn't in range of anything else, Blizzard which is easily taken by waters, and Earthquake for Gengar/Rhydon. Zapdos' reply is a big fuck you to that: Thunderbolt neutral on most cases, destroyer of waters, and Drill Peck to fuck up Chansey+Exeggutor, good luck pivoting between two moves, the other two being Thunder Wave and Agility. So what happened? Simply speaking dropping Exeggutor makes your team weaker to Alakazam but allows space for Jolteon/Rhydon where there wasn't prior. It is the same concept of SS Dracovish being so much strong and unfair, but the tier itself just naturally countered it, so people shy away from running it, as it would be dead weight vs most teams. I believe Zapdos could make his return again if back Zam punishes the Water+Jolteon builds. As it is today sadly Zapdos, one of the biggest tyrants of old rby is in decline.

holds a special place in my heart, i would always choose him in spite of every big 4 team they could throw at me, because to me it had the easier "bad mu" in the triangle. Zapdos vs Rhydon was atrocious to play, but water vs Zapdos wasn't any better. Rhydon vs water on the other hand while not good it wasn't as oppressing to me, so i naturally became the biggest Rhydon guy, icing on the cake Stoss Chansey becoming the big thing from 2015 made Rhydon basicly never useless, unless used poorly. It was my boy. Sadly everything i love seems to be trashed in current meta, Sing Chansey become ultra spammed, and when it wasn't sing it was Counter (both of them carry Ice Beam). It became harder and harder to make use of him, but regardless it stays on a certain level. His physical pressure is immense.

is a particular case, i always despised her existence. Being the only Psychic leads which doesn't sleep block at all, just to ice spam a little early. However everything changed when Sing Chansey gained popularity, Jynx become really appealing to me, blocking completely any mono Ice Beam Chansey.

is an oddball, it used to be the greatest Reflect Lax counter, but the return of Hyper Beam greatly damaged his role, it stays a great mon regardless, as anything packing Explosion in the moveset though.

is another weird case for sure, everyone became fangirl of him for his niche of walling EQless Lax seemly forever. Not realizing that in return Gengar did nothing noteworthy to pressure Chansey, which often forced boom allowing Lax to rampage as nothing happened. Gengar will always be mediocre at best to me.

and
are criminally underated, what the fuck guys? Sure they come with risks but the they don't deserve to be ignored this much, especially the fire warrior. Their match ups vs Tauros and Snorlax should speak miles of their viability, the only two mons in the tier to outright 2hko Tauros without killing themself in the process.

has fallen back to where he belongs again, the droppage of Exeggutor sealed his doom, teams got faster packing faster psychics.

EVERYTHING that could go wrong for Lapras, just did. Sing Chansey sleeping early took away a BIG chunk of Lapras popularity, being the backup sleeper, and the finishing blow was dealt by Exeggutor (one of his slower preys) left on the bench more often leaving space for harder things to deal with for Lapras. That said Cloyster got popular so lapras isn't awful today, but it won't shine was much as it used to do.

once used to be Rhydon's league, because Chansey knew only one moveset (Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Soft Boiled, Thunder Wave), so there wasn't big gap in terms of utility. Golem was there to try his luck finding Zapdos, while also having the luxury of exploding if you discovered that the mu didn't go according to plan. With Reflect era Golem collapsed completely, Rhydon had a 101+ hps sub to make full use of his opponent's strenght, and Snorlax running Reflect didn't help either, at least Rhydon can 3hko a sleeping Lax before reflect (double switch on Rest). Despite packing a respectable 110 attack stat (yes in rby it's 110, will turn into 120 from gsc) Golem falls short on killing full Starmie with Explosion too, giving no reason not to run Cloyster in his place.

S+
Tauros
Snorlax

S
Chansey

S-
Exeggutor
Starmie

A+
Alakazam

A
Rhydon
Zapdos
Jynx
Cloyster

A-
Jolteon
Gengar

B+
Moltres
Articuno

B
Victreebel
Lapras

B-
Slowbro
Dragonite
Golem
Flareon
Porygon

C
Machamp
Sandslash
Kabutops
Persian
Dodrio
Kingler
Pinsir
Poliwrath

C-
Omastar
Hypno
 
Last edited:

Enigami

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcher
Moderator
vs
The star climbed the food chain pretty well lately, with teams being more and more hostile toward Zapdos, deserving the S- to me and the status of big 5... ...To this add that it is the only Rhydon check in the tier, and there it is the undisputed number 4. (I refuse to hear any comment about Starmie being a Rhydon check, if your Starmie possess the ability Limber, i don't care, mine never did).

...

...Simply speaking dropping Exeggutor makes your team weaker to Alakazam but allows space for Jolteon/Rhydon where there wasn't prior... ...I believe Zapdos could make his return again if back Zam punishes the Water+Jolteon builds.

...

and
are criminally underated, what the fuck guys? Sure they come with risks but the they don't deserve to be ignored this much, especially the fire warrior. Their match ups vs Tauros and Snorlax should speak miles of their viability, the only two mons in the tier to outright 2hko Tauros without killing themself in the process.
You already answered why Articuno and Moltres are rated so low. More Jolteons, Starmie reaching its peak and less Exeggutors and Victreebels means more Bird answers and less Bird food. The current meta does not seem to be kind to them, so it seems to me that you're overrating them right now. If the trend reverses though, I could see them ranking that high.

Also, a little nitpick regarding Starmie, it IS a check to Rhydon. Starmie can switch in and beat Rhydon if it does not get paralyzed on the switch, especially if it carries Surf. Rhydon needs to click the right move and get a bit of luck to win the matchup, which clearly is a check. Exeggutor however is a counter, not a check. Barring REALLY bad luck with Body Slam paralysis and full paralysis afterwards, Exeggutor will either beat Rhydon or put it to sleep, even moreso if it has Mega Drain. Clicking Body Slam and getting the paralysis still requires even more luck for Rhydon to beat it and has no surprise moves that do better than 4HKO vs. Exeggutor (maybe Fire Blast + burn on first try?), which clearly is a true counter. But that's just me being picky about semantics.

I quite like how you compressed things from S to C, I always felt like the RBY VRs were decompressed compared to the VRs from later generations.
 
Last edited:

Heroic Troller

Through the Sea of Time
is a Tiering Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
World Defender
You already answered why Articuno and Moltres are rated so low. More Jolteons, Starmie reaching its peak and less Exeggutors and Victreebels means more Bird answers and less Bird food. The current meta does not seem to be kind to them, so it seems to me that you're overrating them right now. If the trend reverses though, I could see them ranking that high.

Also, a little nitpick regarding Starmie, it IS a check to Rhydon. Starmie can switch in and beat Rhydon if it does not get paralyzed on the switch, especially if it carries Surf. Rhydon needs to click the right move and get a bit of luck to win the matchup, which clearly is a check. Exeggutor however is a counter, not a check. Barring REALLY bad luck with Body Slam paralysis and full paralysis afterwards, Exeggutor will either beat Rhydon or put it to sleep, even moreso if it has Mega Drain. Clicking Body Slam and getting the paralysis still requires even more luck for Rhydon to beat it and has no surprise moves that do better than 4HKO vs. Exeggutor (maybe Fire Blast + burn on first try?), which clearly is a true counter. But that's just me being picky about semantics.

I quite like how you compressed things from S to C, I always felt like the RBY VRs were decompressed compared to the VRs from later generations.
You call B+ an overate? In my experience of current rby the birds fared better than anything below them, therefore they go higher, if the meta was the old one with more Exeggutors, sure thing i'd even put them higher. I don't get why two arguments must for sure kill one another. The meta is currently against them, and they still belong to B+ to me, after many usages including in SPL. Did you really had the need to go around argue over a B+? Anything that isn't A- or more is unreliable by nature and not something i would suggest most of the times. Give a look at what lies under them.

Honestly i hate the Starmie argument a lot, "Starmie is a check if it doesn't get parad, all the better if Surf is there", nothing new under the sun. Rhydon needs to click the right move to get the upperhand? So it doesn't braindeadly kill it? How can clicking the right move be called an argument? I can go Articuno on EQ and that's not a counter is it? If anything Rhydon can EQ whatever he wants and if Starmie switches there is a forced mindgame of Recover vs Blizzard, 30% is massive chance to overthrow one check, especially repeated. Rhydon is the 6th i spammed more in my life, i think i can tell if Starmie is a safe check or not. Not to mention the Body Slam doesn't have to para right away, the game is long and the sequence can be repeated easily. That said Starmie is a check, but not a good one, it just happens to be the only of a few mons that can afford coming on Rhydon without taking massive permanent damage, but the way people go around as it is supposed to be that long lasting barrier, it's plain wrong. I'd rather call Reflect Lax a safer check.

Exeggutor is NOT a counter, by definition a counter should switch in and either heal or take so little that it doesn't matter, the same way Chansey is a counter for Starmie, or Jolteon for Zapdos. Exeggutor is nothing more than a very sturdy check that eventually loses. You can't claim for real that 4hko is the arbitrary point where a check becomes a counter, especially because you talk as if Rhydon has to stay in and fight Exeggutor right away, while he can just force that in later. The counter must be something that without external factors (other pokemons forcing damage/status on it, or ungodly luck) will stop the countered mon in the 1v1 for days, aka Rhydon vs Zapdos.
 
Last edited:

Enigami

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcher
Moderator
You call B+ an overate? In my experience of current rby the birds fared better than anything below them, therefore they go higher, if the meta was the old one with more Exeggutors, sure thing i'd even put them higher. I don't get why two arguments must for sure kill one another. The meta is currently against them, and they still belong to B+ to me, after many usages including in SPL. Did you really had the need to go around argue over a B+? Anything that isn't A- or more is unreliable by nature and not something i would suggest most of the times. Give a look at what lies under them.

Honestly i hate the Starmie argument a lot, "Starmie is a check if it doesn't get parad, all the better if Surf is there", nothing new under the sun. Rhydon needs to click the right move to get the upperhand? So it doesn't braindeadly kill it? How can clicking the right move be called an argument? I can go Articuno on EQ and that's not a counter is it? If anything Rhydon can EQ whatever he wants and if Starmie switches there is a forced mindgame of Recover vs Blizzard, 30% is massive chance to overthrow one check, especially repeated. Rhydon is the 6th i spammed more in my life, i think i can tell if Starmie is a safe check or not. Not to mention the Body Slam doesn't have to para right away, the game is long and the sequence can be repeated easily. That said Starmie is a check, but not a good one, it just happens to be the only of a few mons that can afford coming on Rhydon without taking massive permanent damage, but the way people go around as it is supposed to be that long lasting barrier, it's plain wrong. I'd rather call Reflect Lax a safer check.

Exeggutor is NOT a counter, by definition a counter should switch in and either heal or take so little that it doesn't matter, the same way Chansey is a counter for Starmie, or Jolteon for Zapdos. Exeggutor is nothing more than a very sturdy check that eventually loses. You can't claim for real that 4hko is the arbitrary point where a check becomes a counter, especially because you talk as if Rhydon has to stay in and fight Exeggutor right away, while he can just force that in later. The counter must be something that without external factors (other pokemons forcing damage/status on it, or ungodly luck) will stop the countered mon in the 1v1 for days, aka Rhydon vs Zapdos.
It seems we have very different views on what defines "check" and "counter". I've always followed Smogon's definitions myself:

"To be considered a counter, a Pokemon must be able to switch into any of the opponent's moves under normal battle conditions*, including taking damage from Stealth Rock, and reliably KO the opponent before the counter is KOed itself."
Exeggutor under normal battle conditions can switch into and reliably KO Rhydon before it is KOed itself. Exeggutor is a counter to Rhydon by the above definition.

"To be considered a check, a Pokemon must be able to switch into at least one but not all of the opponent's moves under normal battle conditions, including taking damage from Stealth Rock, and reliably KO the opponent before the check is KOed itself. "
Starmie can switch into anything but Body Slam and reliably KO Rhydon before it is KOed itself, but loses if it switches into Body Slam and gets paralyzed. Starmie is a check to Rhydon by the above definition.


Regarding Articuno and Moltres, you've rated them notably higher than anyone else. Your placement of them is an outlier, so that's why I say you're overrating them. Conventional wisdom and my own view is that Fire Bird and Ice Bird aren't quite that hot. You gotta expect a little pushback when you're going against the grain.
 

Sevi 7

Semi-retired
While the VR is being updated, would anyone think that ranking leads might be a good idea? It's not as diverse as other gens, but it will still porbably be a good thing for new players to see. It might also be interesting to see how different people rank leads.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top