Gen 1 RBY OU Viability Ranking - Mark II

I'd say D is truly the cutoff for viable Pokemon. Example is Sandslash is a good Ground-type Sword Dance Pokemon, which is a unique niche that can be useful. Obviously, it has its issues but its still capable of doing something genuinely admirable with that niche whereas you'd be stretching to use a Pokemon like Poliwrath
I'm sorry, but I have to advocate for my boy, Poliwrath, especially since it wasn't put into D rank. After 2 Amnesia boosts, Blizzard, Hydro Pump and Submission can 2HKO or OHKO literally every single Pokemon, except Tentacruel. If grass-types and Dragonite aren't a concern for you, then you can run Hypnosis over Blizzard. The only thing keeping Poli back is it's shaky accuracy. The thing is completely under the radar and people talking about it like we're doing it a favor by putting it into E rank. But Poliwrath is definitely more deserving of D rank than Kingler.
 
Honestly the more I see these discussions the more I think arguing that there's a distinct "cutoff" for viability is misguided. People have different standards for how good something has to be to be worth using, and on top of that, their opinions on how effective a given pokemon actually is will vary wildly. This is further compounded by the fact these fringe pokemon are rarely seen, so there's little data for players to base opinions on and learn how to make the best use of these fringe threats- usually the only way is to use them yourself, but who's really got time for that, especially when you'd rather be mostly using teams with better options, not fringe threats for the sake of experimenting

Basically, differing standards make for a massive grey area, no-one can agree where things fall within that area, and most people don't have a good understanding of what they're talking about most of the time (myself included)

I can agree with Kingler being overrated though
 
Honestly the more I see these discussions the more I think arguing that there's a distinct "cutoff" for viability is misguided. People have different standards for how good something has to be to be worth using, and on top of that, their opinions on how effective a given pokemon actually is will vary wildly. This is further compounded by the fact these fringe pokemon are rarely seen, so there's little data for players to base opinions on and learn how to make the best use of these fringe threats- usually the only way is to use them yourself, but who's really got time for that, especially when you'd rather be mostly using teams with better options, not fringe threats for the sake of experimenting

Basically, differing standards make for a massive grey area, no-one can agree where things fall within that area, and most people don't have a good understanding of what they're talking about most of the time (myself included)

I can agree with Kingler being overrated though
A tier list doesn't serve much purpose for an experienced player, because they all have their own tier lists formed in their heads. The main purpose of a tier list is to give new players a guide of how good different pokemon are. I think a viability cut-off is important is to distinguish between the pokemon which should be used when learning the game and which ones to stay clear of.

New players should not be using stuff like sandslash or kingler to learn the game. They should stick to consistent OU pokemon.
 
This isn't too important to note but I do find it interesting that Flareon for once is more viable than Vaporeon (Even though I think Haze Vaporeon is a fun thing to try out) when in each gen after, Flareon is really bad compared to its Eeveelution counterparts. Gen 1 is the only time you'll ever catch Flareon, Kingler, or Persian lurking anywhere near OU
 
Even in the context of RBY Flareon being viable is an anomaly exclusive to OU, it's also pretty much unusable in any other RBY tier (and Vaporeon's better than it in the other 2 tiers where they're both available), including on Pokemon Perfect which went down to 6 tiers iirc, RBY OU is just the perfect storm for it to reach the edges of viability
 

Hipmonlee

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Tauros, Lax and Chansey are no brainer picks.

So that leaves two more slots. I think a Jynx and a Starmie work well with it. Getting rid of Starmie is great for Persian and Jynx is often a good way to do that. It also works well against the most common form of Counter Chansey, which is the Sing/IB/Counter/Softboiled.

Starmie patches holes nicely and lures Chansey, which Persian can take advantage of. Chansey cant have a status move and counter and thunderbolt (well, obviously it technically could, but...) So at least one out of Starmie, Persian and Tauros is going to be a huge pain for it.
I think Psy + Blizz makes some sense here. Luring Starmie and paralysing it is great for Persian, Psychic means it beats ice beam Chansey, and Blizzard could just as easily be surf, but this gives you generally better coverage.. Surf would be fine too.

Chan could go with an icebeaming set or a reflect set. Just depends how you want to play it. My inclination is to go with a reflect set, and just paralyse Chansey.

With Lax, you probably want quake on it, to help you deal with Counter Chansey. Try out a damage calculator and see how counter Lax or Selfdestruct lax goes against a reflect lax when you have a Persian as backup. If you can find a scenario where you safely do enough damage to enemy Lax with your own and then chase it out with Persian, so its at low health and forced to switch then that is probably a workable strategy. Cause if this team has a weakness at the moment it is enemy Snorlax.

Jolteon and Zapdos are also gonna suck to deal with. Maybe you can find a way to take pressure off your Snorlax by using Persian. So that Lax can be saved for the enemy Electrics.
 

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If Counter can cause a desync on cartridge under any, and especially common conditions, then it doesn't need to be mentioned since it needs to be banned like Psywave.
  • If the opponent uses Counter and the last move you had highlighted was different to the last move used, a desync will occur if one can be Countered and the other cannot. This can occur if you fully paralyse, or if you enter the move selection menu, then change your mind and switch instead
there's precedent for refusing to implement clearly game-breaking bugs - see acid rain in gen 4.
 
Tauros, Lax and Chansey are no brainer picks.

So that leaves two more slots. I think a Jynx and a Starmie work well with it. Getting rid of Starmie is great for Persian and Jynx is often a good way to do that. It also works well against the most common form of Counter Chansey, which is the Sing/IB/Counter/Softboiled.

Starmie patches holes nicely and lures Chansey, which Persian can take advantage of. Chansey cant have a status move and counter and thunderbolt (well, obviously it technically could, but...) So at least one out of Starmie, Persian and Tauros is going to be a huge pain for it.
I think Psy + Blizz makes some sense here. Luring Starmie and paralysing it is great for Persian, Psychic means it beats ice beam Chansey, and Blizzard could just as easily be surf, but this gives you generally better coverage.. Surf would be fine too.

Chan could go with an icebeaming set or a reflect set. Just depends how you want to play it. My inclination is to go with a reflect set, and just paralyse Chansey.

With Lax, you probably want quake on it, to help you deal with Counter Chansey. Try out a damage calculator and see how counter Lax or Selfdestruct lax goes against a reflect lax when you have a Persian as backup. If you can find a scenario where you safely do enough damage to enemy Lax with your own and then chase it out with Persian, so its at low health and forced to switch then that is probably a workable strategy. Cause if this team has a weakness at the moment it is enemy Snorlax.

Jolteon and Zapdos are also gonna suck to deal with. Maybe you can find a way to take pressure off your Snorlax by using Persian. So that Lax can be saved for the enemy Electrics.
Thanks!
 
there's precedent for refusing to implement clearly game-breaking bugs - see acid rain in gen 4.
I honestly think Acid Rain ought to be implemented, since while it's hugely game-altering, afaik it doesn't make the game literally unplayable the way desyncs do, with the exception of Cherrim/Castform softlocks I guess. And well, I don't think Cherrim and Castform are worth modifying game mechanics for, just ban them and be done with it, it's not like anyone will miss them
 

Hipmonlee

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Philosophically I dont mind ranking completely outclassed mons. Cause like, Tangela has a niche over Vic, with EQ resistance. But on an arbitrary team Venusaur is gonna do better than Tangela. So to rank Tangela and not Victreebel would be weird.

People might just really like Venusaur, or really dislike Victreebel, they might be setting themselves some arbitrary teambuilding challenge that excludes Victreebel for whatever reason. So for them it is useful to know that Venusaur is not actually terrible, in spite of being almost totally outclassed.

That's my take on these things anyway.
 
Hey so I used to think Venu shouldn't be ranked until I both looked more into it and encountered scenarios where I honestly thought Venu was the ideal choice. Outspeeding Cloy is notable, but the thing that sticks out to me is Venu's bulk, which allows it to soft-check physical attackers a lot better than Bel. The most notable difference is that Venu is only 3HKO'd by Don's EQ, whereas Bel is usually 2HKO'd. It also usually avoids the 3HKO from Lax BSlam (around 35% to 3HKO), whereas this is guaranteed for Bel. It also gets one switch in to Tauros BSlam without dying to a subsequent HBeam (assuming neither move crits), which is obviously not ideal, but is nice to have in an emergency

By contrast, Bel has guaranteed OHKOs on Zam and Jolt at +2, which aren't guaranteed for Venu (or even possible in the case of Jolt), and also a small chance of OHKOing Chansey at +2. In the latter case, the OHKO chance is low enough that the more important thing is that Bel needs far less chip damage for it to become guaranteed. The OHKO on Zam isn't terribly relevant though, since Venu usually gets this anyway (74.4% chance, not counting accuracy), and it takes a negligible amount of chip damage for this to become guaranteed.

Overall, I think if you were to compare their SD sets, Venu's is probably slightly better, but ofc Bel is capable of way more than just SD, which is why it's much better overall
 

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Whats Clefable's niche? Status spreader? Seems like a discount Chansey
I haven't really tried Clefable myself so my opinion is based on facing it and theorizing. To me Clefable kinda is like a mix of Snorlax and Chansey. It has access to Sing and Thunder Wave like Chansey and can pressure the opponent with Mega Kick (Mega Kick + Hyper Beam has a chance to KO Chansey although the accuracy makes it even less likely; however the damage compared to Body Slam is much higher), Hyper Beam, Blizzard for covering Rhydon, and Thunderbolt for Cloyster and Starmie. I don't really know how good Body Slam is on it. It doesn't seem as appealing to me but it can probably still be somewhat okay. I don't know which set I would use, but maybe something like this. Counter is also an option that I haven't mentioned yet but I think it would be pretty difficult to find a slot for it.

Mega Kick
Hyper Beam / Thunderbolt
Sing / Thunder Wave
Blizzard / Thunder Wave
 

Heika

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From playing clefable a lot recently (using a team from gorgie), the main prospect it got over something like snorlax is outspeeding eggy and chansey. On the said team it was over Snorlax, and while it was making things a lot harder because yeah lax is so reliable, it won me end games single handedly thanks to my opponent keeping his low life eggy to sleep/boom my unrevealed lax which wasn't one.

The set was Mega Kick Hyper-Beam TWave Blizzard
On the physical side, while the damage are lowkey interesting imo, relying on 75% or Hyper-Beam is annoying.
On the special side, the damage output of blizzard is kinda disapointing, making it somewhat snorlax walled, which is sad for a mixed attacker ig.

Edit: mb the team was Lusch's
 
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