OU RBY OU Viability Ranking (2016 to 2020)

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Well, just to move things along, we'll roll with B/C as the cutoff point unless there's a sudden surge of disagreement.

That means Rhydon, Cloyster, and Dragonite should all be discussed, as they're around the cusp of OU and UU (which seems like a pretty accurate trio to be riding that border imo).

I think Dragonite should definitely remain in C. Dedicated Wrap teams are extremely unreliable and honestly tedious to both use and face. I would much rather use a solo-Wrapper on a team that can still function reliably if you have bad luck with said Wrapper. Dragonite can actually be kinda cool then, with free switches from Wrap being particularly fun. The poor accuracy tends to catch up with it eventually, though, and that's assuming you even get a good setup opportunity. For an important game, I'd rather have something like Cloy, Slash, Kang, Persian, Arti, etc. than Dnite.

Cloyster jumps out as the best mon in C, albeit a bit less common than most of B. I still think it's worth OU status, though. It can use Clamp for free switches the same way Dnite can, but it also offers more team support. Massive physical bulk is always handy, especially since standard Tauros actually struggles against it. It also has the same strength Explosion as Egg and a useful Ice typing. Competition for a teamslot vs the other Waters is tough, but it plays so differently that it's not really outclassed. I think it fits in quite well with the likes of Golem and Gar.

I also still think Rhydon should drop to C, but it's a really tough case. I went into some detail above about how the mechanical changes were bad for Rhydon, though some metagame shifts have also been good for it. It still has a useful niche in OU, but you have to build with it more carefully imo. It doesn't have Golem's scare factor, making it easier to play around and bully past. It needs para support and teammates that are bulky enough to repeatedly take hits for it, both of which are things Golem appreciates but doesn't necessitate as much. That reduced flexibility when teambuilding is its biggest downfall. I don't think it's "bad", but I also don't think the other mons in C are "bad" either, just harder to build with.
 

Isa

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cloyster/rhydon/dragonite should all be b

there's a new trend in dropping egg on teams fsr and rhydon loves that a ton. it'd still be b even without that trend tho

ranked them internally in order of b-ness
 
Well I think all 3 mons are C-worthy. Cloy is easily the best of the three, obviously matchup dependent but on top of that it's just a little too unreliable for my liking, it often gets burnt by the RNG. However it is clearly the best C rank so I'm not going to make a fuss arguing it if people want it to move up.

Dnite is a monumental pain in the ass, but Jelli's points are all on the mark. I do want to point out that it can have a nasty TWave, because unless you have a live Gengar, you're never ever switching out of Dnite on the turn it would normally Agility, which in turn means it can para stuff that would otherwise be difficult to para (Tauros?). But overall I don't consider that a huge deal, because it is fairly hax prone and it means using TWave Dnite which isn't the same threat as agiwrap.

Rhydon is just incredibly unrewarding. It's exceptionally difficult to use, as so many things deal significant damage to it that it has a really rough time coming in, it requires extensive para support and it has a ubiquitous check in the Exeggutor, in addition to a bunch of other things that perform decently against it. Also I've observed no trend of dropping Egg so idk about that. Basically it requires extensive support, has bad matchups against a lot of things and when it does find an opening all it usually accomplishes is a reasonable chunk of chip damage before being forced out. If we compare to Golem, Explosion is a huge deal as it's a fantastic general utility move both offensively and defensively.

edit: shoutout to Lutra for inspiring me to use Hypno, the thing's a beast
 
The only reason I can see Rhydon as B is that I'll still usually at least consider it while filling out a team. I'd also at least consider Slash for the exact same spot (and usually give it to Golem anyway), so I'm not saying that's an auto-B quality, just that I can kinda see it. Cloyster should be above it regardless, so if it's staying B, Cloy should definitely get the bump.

I can't think of a time I've thought of Dnite as a great addition to a team. Rather, it's something you usually have to specifically build around from the start, more akin to most of C. Slash and Kang down in D get more serious consideration from me (though I'd like to see both in C, Kang in particular should be around Persian imo). Without AgiliWrap, it needs TWave to differentiate itself from Arti or even Gyara. But that seems like a Zap that handles Rocks at the cost of getting smashed by the more common (and threatening) Waters. I have to admit, I've never played with it (or seen it), though. Does anyone happen have any good replays / teams with it that I could check out?
 

Mr.E

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mfw cloyster is considered better than rhydon even though it's better than golem which is considered better than cloyster


I don't like this trend of overrating everything on the basis of Explosion *coughSNORLAXcough* (selfdestruct same thing). Incidentally, nobody uses Golem in GSC where Rhydon still occasionally shows its face, despite Explosion getting powered up to nigh-guaranteed-OHKO damage and raw DPS being as unimportant as it ever gets in Pokémon history. I love Explosion (making the guy who has said many times in the past it's the best move in the game cringe at how overboard you guys are going on how much better it makes Golem, ugh) but it's not ungodly amazing in RBY. Unlike, say, Sandslash who doesn't resist Normal attacks or Drill Peck and is significantly less bulky but exists in a higher Speed tier and learns Swords Dance, Golem and Rhydon are damn near identical. Explosion vs. turn-by-turn strength. The majority might be in Golem's camp but I don't think anyone heavily disagrees with the notion that the choice is personal preference and most people just happen to prefer one option. No reason to tier Rhydon lower unless people just really wanna see it in UU for some reason, but that seems disingenuous to me.

And seriously, Articuno?
 
mfw cloyster is considered better than rhydon even though it's better than golem which is considered better than cloyster


I don't like this trend of overrating everything on the basis of Explosion *coughSNORLAXcough* (selfdestruct same thing). Incidentally, nobody uses Golem in GSC where Rhydon still occasionally shows its face, despite Explosion getting powered up to nigh-guaranteed-OHKO damage and raw DPS being as unimportant as it ever gets in Pokémon history. I love Explosion (making the guy who has said many times in the past it's the best move in the game cringe at how overboard you guys are going on how much better it makes Golem, ugh) but it's not ungodly amazing in RBY. Unlike, say, Sandslash who doesn't resist Normal attacks or Drill Peck and is significantly less bulky but exists in a higher Speed tier and learns Swords Dance, Golem and Rhydon are damn near identical. Explosion vs. turn-by-turn strength. The majority might be in Golem's camp but I don't think anyone heavily disagrees with the notion that the choice is personal preference and most people just happen to prefer one option. No reason to tier Rhydon lower unless people just really wanna see it in UU for some reason, but that seems disingenuous to me.

And seriously, Articuno?
The general point, I think, is not that "Explosion is so good," it's that "Body Slam is not-so-good [anymore]." So in a direct comparison between the two, Body Slam's usefulness dropped, which means that Golem's Explosion "rose" only in relative terms.
 
mfw cloyster is considered better than rhydon even though it's better than golem which is considered better than cloyster


I don't like this trend of overrating everything on the basis of Explosion *coughSNORLAXcough* (selfdestruct same thing). Incidentally, nobody uses Golem in GSC where Rhydon still occasionally shows its face, despite Explosion getting powered up to nigh-guaranteed-OHKO damage and raw DPS being as unimportant as it ever gets in Pokémon history. I love Explosion (making the guy who has said many times in the past it's the best move in the game cringe at how overboard you guys are going on how much better it makes Golem, ugh) but it's not ungodly amazing in RBY. Unlike, say, Sandslash who doesn't resist Normal attacks or Drill Peck and is significantly less bulky but exists in a higher Speed tier and learns Swords Dance, Golem and Rhydon are damn near identical. Explosion vs. turn-by-turn strength. The majority might be in Golem's camp but I don't think anyone heavily disagrees with the notion that the choice is personal preference and most people just happen to prefer one option. No reason to tier Rhydon lower unless people just really wanna see it in UU for some reason, but that seems disingenuous to me.

And seriously, Articuno?
GSC and RBY are not really comparable at all here. Even ignoring the drastic difference in mechanics, Rhydon gained Curse and Roar (both of which are easier to run on it, since bulkier), which is huge. You're also relying a lot harder on an Electric switch-in in GSC, where Zap and Raikou are top tier after Lax. Rest sets are easier to run, since you can use a beller or even ST. Toxic also doesn't suck this gen, which is another option for it (Don's better than Golem on a ToxiWrap team in RBY, but those are pretty underwhelming.) Plus, Leftovers completely changes the game. It's like bashing Chan in RBY because Lax is better in GSC.

I'd consider Cloy and Golem on pretty equal footing, btw, with Don being a bit below them. It's not as threatening, harder to build with and use, and hands over momentum more freely. I'm not saying it's terrible or unusable by any means, but it's more in the realm of other C ranks. You can definitely still use it effectively, but this isn't 2+ years ago, when it actually was better than Golem.
 

Mr.E

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It's not like Golem can't learn Curse + Roar in GSC itself. The biggest difference directly regarding them in the advancement is Explosion getting vastly stronger, and arguably more important with the advent of Leftovers making it so much harder to actually KO anything, and yet the perception flips from Golem having the upper hand to Rhydon having it. Golem even has the added option of Rapid Spin. Not that GSC is relevant per se, I just find it odd the general perception of them between gens. Hypocritical, perhaps even ignorant. If Rhydon is better than Golem in GSC, when Golem does nothing but gain on it in the transition, how is Golem so much better in RBY? Rhydon should compare even more favorably.

I don't think the mechanical changes we realized with Body Slam and friends hurt Rhydon much at all. It mostly hurts other Normals, and Lapras, against Chansey. Goldon's primary counters are the Waters and Eggy, which still potentially eat PAR switching into BS. Doesn't Golem still use BS in its normal moveset anyway? It would hurt both equally. If anything, I think Rhydon's options of Substitute and/or Rest have become stronger in recent times, with stuff like Toss Chansey and "tank" mono-Laxen seeing greater-than-zero usage, making it comparably better than Golem who just always mashes Explosion. To say nothing of the metagame being more Electric-heavy than ever, which again advantages Rhydon because you can't afford to willy-nilly Explode your Golem anyway.

I don't have an issue with Golem lovers, but I can't even begin to entertain the notion that it's an entire tier higher than Rhydon when they're extremely similar and it's incredibly arguable which one is even the better. Honestly, I think some people just want to see Rhydon in UU so they can use it in UU.

Also, come on. Articuno. Just... no. Why? At least Moltres has Fire Spin bogus.

And a good time to re-mention Dodrio and Sandslash as "shit I've actually used before and would vaguely consider using again." (And Dugtrio... back in the day when we still allowed OHKOs.) Maybe Venusaur but it's not quite the Rhydon to Victreebel's Golem; Victreebel is rather plainly better in most cases. I wouldn't mind hearing about Kangaskhan either from someone who gives a hoot about it, since I don't really get why I'm using it over Dodrio let alone Persian. (What does the extra bulk do and how badly does the power drop hurt it?)
 
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Royal Flush

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Late to the party, but Jynx is A material yo. Considering we ain't using + or - for ranks, she is more threatening/game-changer than ~literally~ everything in B.
 
Lutra and Bedschibaer, feel free to edit the OP if a change gets overwhelming support in the coming hours. We're running the initial cutoff point at B/C for now, so Cloy / Don / Dnite are the main topics still. The way discussion's currently leaning, I think there's enough support to bump Cloy up to B, not enough to drop Don down to C, and not enough to bump Dnite up to B. If that changes in the coming hours, use your best judgment. I'll hopefully be back before The Immortal's off, but if not, he knows to run with whatever's B and up in the OP (plus the Mew Crew) as the initial banlist.

On that note, I moved:
Cloyster: C -> B

Though that can obviously still change with today's discussion.

Too lazy to tag all my friends for a 4k, so I hope you 3 feel extra special today~
 

M Dragon

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Golem is a much worse Rhydon that can explode. And thats the big difference (explosion) that gives Golem something over Rhydon.
Both are hard walls for electrics, but other than that they have different roles.
Golem is useful to remove some key threats with the one time use explosion (something that could be dangerous if you dont know if they have a last mon electric), but it lacks the power to be a powerful hard hitter (misses too many 2hkos and 3hkos).
Rhydon is a hard hitter that works better with para support, so the strat when using Rhydon is spreading paralysis as much as possible and hitting hard. However it needs more support to be effective.

Golem is a pivot that can threaten with a boom and wall electrics.
Rhydon is a hard hitter that can be deadly with para support.

If Golem had Rhydon's power and could 2hko Chans and 3hko Slowbro and Lax then Rhydon would be UU, but that is not the case.
They have different roles, and they should stay at the same tier.
 
Let's turn our attention to the A/B ranks now. Current proposals are Lapras -> B, Slowbro and Jynx -> A. I'm a fan of all these changes, as I've argued already.

Lapras does not stand up as well in the current format. Sing gives it a niche as a bulky Water, and STAB Blizz and Tbolt are still great, but its hit-and-run tactics have suffered like Rhydon's since BSlam's change in mechanics. It's still a solid pick, but it's not as dominant as A implies.

Slowbro isn't just a sweeper that needs luck to break through teams. It's also a fantastic bulky paralysis spreader mid-game, giving it great utility throughout the battle. Both the support it offers and immediate threat it poses makes it worthy of A.

Jynx is a fantastic lead and probably the best at immediately gaining a significant early advantage in the game. Yeah, it only really shines in that lead slot, but that slot is extremely important. At least half of your team is usually taken up by the Big 4. Unfortunately, they're not the best leads, which restricts teambuilding even further. Anything that can effectively cover that position is a lot more viable. That's a big part of why Zam and Star are so highly ranked, Jolt rose to B, and Gar never dropped. I think Jynx's ability to dominate in the early-game makes it worthy of A as well.
 

Bughouse

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Lapras to B for sure.

Jynx to A makes sense to me as it is clearly the best Pokemon currently in B. Jynx is probably better than Zapdos too tbh.

But hell no for Slowbro.
 

phoopes

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Agreeing with Lapras to B for sure.

I just really can't see Jynx in A. As M Dragon said it's not nearly as good as Alakzam or Starmie, and I think Zapdos has more utility than it as well. Also, probably an unpopular opinion but I prefer Gengar as a sleeper. Yeah yeah I know, Hypnosis has 60 accuracy compared to Lovely Kiss's 75. But the extra speed is worth it IMO. In addition being immune to Normal moves is dope so you can switch it in easier, and Explosion access is always awesome. Jynx is the more reliable sleeper and has STAB Blizzard Psychic, which are its strong points over Gengar. They both have their merits, but they're not near as good as any of the stuff in A (besides Lapras but that's probably dropping).

Also me and Mr.E have been the only ones to mention it but another unpopular opinion is that I think Alakazam is better than Snorlax. Yeah I get Snorlax is one of the "Big 4" but personally I'm always way more scared of Alakazam than I am of Snorlax. One of the strongest points I think Alakazam has it that it can force Chansey to switch out with Special drops from Psychic. Most other stuff is kinda walled hard by Chansey, especially if it has Reflect. But Alakazam is one of the things that can beat it one on one which is awesome. Trust me, Snorlax is a really good Pokemon. But I think Alakazam is more deserving of S Rank than it. I got other stuff/points to make but I'd like to have a bit of a discussion about it.
 

Enigami

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Lapras > B - I agree, I really don't see it quite on the level of Zam/Mie/Dos.
Jynx > A - Very very close call here. Its strength as a lead is undeniable, but its squishiness and Gengar can hold it back. I think I'd favor A very slightly, but either rank is good.
Slowbro > A - Disagree. It's very scary for certain, but in practice I've found it usually falls short of being a major threat and gets taken down before it pulls any big plays.
Alakazam > S - Hmm... I disagree that Zam > Lax, but I agree that Zam is a very huge threat. Alakazam is a lot easier to switch into and even Reflect Zam can be handled by Chansey + a Psychic-type, and Snorlax has a lot of options it can use. Still, I can't disagree that Reflect Zam in particular is always a very scary threat to face. Not sure yet whether I'd support it or not.

It looks like there isn't any opposition to E rank, so can we get Nidoqueen > E?

Also replace Arcanine with Rapidash. Unless someone can explain where the bulk or +10 Attack is relevant, I see no reason to use Arcanine over Rapidash when Rapidash has nearly the same mixed offense, outspeeds Jynx/Zapdos/Dodrio and gets Fire Spin.
 
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It looks like there isn't any opposition to E rank, so can we get Nidoqueen > E?

Also replace Arcanine with Rapidash. Unless someone can explain where the bulk or +10 Attack is relevant, I see no reason to use Arcanine over Rapidash when Rapidash has nearly the same mixed offense, outspeeds Jynx/Zapdos/Dodrio and gets Fire Spin.
Went ahead and did both of these for now, since we still have E.

I think we should consider + ranks. Zam and Star are a clear cut above everything else, as has been brought up a few times, so having an A+ for them makes sense. S+ I would see as just Tauros (Chan comes to closest, but is easier to drop on offense. Tauros improves any team and deserves that distinction anyway.) It would also help with some of the lower ranks, where certain mons kinda fall in-between the general power levels of ranks. Plus, we could probably drop E after shuffling things around a bit more.

I don't see a downside besides maybe being "unnecessary", but the extra information never hurts and it's not like it takes much effort to add. Plus, it gives us more to discuss. Unless there's a weird opposition to it, I'll probably add them in the coming days.
 

Mr.E

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I, for one, hate the addition of "plus" without a corresponding "minus." Not that that's stopped anyone before. As if we need more information but not too much information or something.

Also replace Arcanine with Rapidash. Unless someone can explain where the bulk or +10 Attack is relevant, I see no reason to use Arcanine over Rapidash when Rapidash has nearly the same mixed offense, outspeeds Jynx/Zapdos/Dodrio and gets Fire Spin.
Good! Then listen up! My favorite RAPIDASH... It... cute... lovely... smart... plus... amazing... you think so? ...oh yes... it... stunning... kindly... love it! Hug it... when... sleeping... warm and cuddly... spectacular... ravishing... ...Oops! Look at the time! I kept you too long! Thanks for hearing me out! I want you to have this!

Hey man, Arcanine learns Dig. At any rate, without actually looking at damage calcs it isn't difficult to imagine where its extra bulk would make a difference as 383 to 333 HP is kind of a big difference. Arcanine is 25% physically bulkier (15% specially), more than even e.g. Cloyster compared to Articuno, or Snorlax compared to Tauros.

But just because I got curious and did some anyway: Tauros guaranteed 3HKOs Rapidash with Body Slam alone, Arcanine it must finish with Hyper Beam (10% miss and risk of Goldon switching in to punish). Arcanine may even narrowly survive a crit HB at full HP. Rapidash always dies to Zam Psychic special drop + Psychic, Arcanine coin flips to survive. Rapidash basically coin flips to survive Starmie Hydro Pump, or a 3HKO from Blizzard, Arcanine always survives. Rapidash usually bites it to Persian Slash + Hyper Beam (and may eat it from double Slash), Arcanine always survives.

Among slower shit, Snorlax is guaranteed to 2HKO Rapidash with Body Slam + Hyper Beam which Arcanine is guaranteed to survive. Arcanine almost always survives triple Body Slam as well, again forcing Hyper Beam to finish the 3HKO. Golem may OHKO Rapidash and Rhydon almost always does, Arcanine always survives both. Shit nobody cares about: Arcanine coin flips the 2HKO from lolarticuno's Blizzard, Rapidash is OHKOed by \m/ CRABHAMMER \m/ ~25% of the time. ... And a bajillion scenarios of mixed-source damage that Arcanine will survive and Rapidash won't because 50 HP is a lot.

Offensively, uhh, since they have the same Special and generally their damage would come from their STAB Fire attacks Arcanine shouldn't do much Rapidash doesn't. It's the difference between Tauros switching into Body Slam and getting 2HKOed by Fire Blast 99.95% of the time versus Rapidash and 99.98% of the time versus Arcanine. ;/ Rapidash will usually get more mileage out of Fire Spin. Insofar as it likely never hits the intended target, however, Arcanine's Dig does nail Gengar and Jolteon solidly plus usually 2HKOs Golem after switching into Fire Blast (hey look Rhydon's bulk being relevant amirite), none of which are particularly vulnerable to Rapidash Spinning them to death.

Also not just Fire Spin, but Rapidash can also do the budget version of Dragonite's Agility cheese. Sure, it'll usually do less damage and it's more inaccurate to the point of why even try (but you'll use Agility anyway if you're using literally Rapidash because it doesn't learn anything else useful) but hey, Gengar isn't immune to it I suppose.
 
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xJoelituh

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Wasn't dig banned because of the Fly/Dig invulnerablity glitch?
And I agree with Mr.E, if we get plus rankings it doesnt make sense to not have minus.
Anyway both Arcanine and Rapidash should be listed and on the same rank no matter what, like Mr. E mentioned there are some differences, but still both are niche mons.
 
I'm wondering if Jolteon might be A tier material, especially because of how well Lead Jolt kinda is. I mean compare it in Matchups to other common leads:

Egg:Best Matchup IMO,Horribly outsped, he could try and sleep or Stun but in exchange risk losing at least half their health due to Pin Missile. Can go boom on it but no one really wins that in the end though, and usually Jolts are backed up with GolDon so if they read the boom GG.

Starmie: Probably does not like fighting this thing. Can Para but STAB Thunderbolt hurts, can be paraed right back and even can hurt it with Pin Missile.

Jynx: can actually hurt with Para or Pins and shrug off Blizzard/Psychic due to high Special.

Gengar: Outspeeds him and can Para. Thunderbolt is useless against him also.

Alakazam: probably the worst matchup-can Para, but will be Pared in Return, and Pin Missile is it's only major option to hurt it.


I'm still sorta new to RBY though so it might just be novice thoughts or somethin'.
 

Hipmonlee

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As someone who generally preferred Rhydon to Golem, I do agree the bodyslam change has been beneficial for Golem relatively. I now am probably more likely to choose Golem over Rhydon. However, I agree they dont belong in separate tiers.

Articuno is definitely too high. It doesnt matter that Lapras doesnt KO the normals as easily as Lapras, when Lapras is strictly better against both. Articuno is almost entirely outclassed by Lapras and Cloyster. I think the perfect summary of it is: "a small niche in the metagame and [is] often not worth using".

I say B is OU and C isnt.

And Dragonite I still feel is being undervalued, but it's hard to argue for something I barely use it because it is just so boring.
 
I'm wondering if Jolteon might be A tier material, especially because of how well Lead Jolt kinda is. I mean compare it in Matchups to other common leads:

Egg:Best Matchup IMO,Horribly outsped, he could try and sleep or Stun but in exchange risk losing at least half their health due to Pin Missile. Can go boom on it but no one really wins that in the end though, and usually Jolts are backed up with GolDon so if they read the boom GG.

Starmie: Probably does not like fighting this thing. Can Para but STAB Thunderbolt hurts, can be paraed right back and even can hurt it with Pin Missile.

Jynx: can actually hurt with Para or Pins and shrug off Blizzard/Psychic due to high Special.

Gengar: Outspeeds him and can Para. Thunderbolt is useless against him also.

Alakazam: probably the worst matchup-can Para, but will be Pared in Return, and Pin Missile is it's only major option to hurt it.


I'm still sorta new to RBY though so it might just be novice thoughts or somethin'.
Hmmm overall I think Jolt's quite an average lead. I don't think any of those matchups besides the obvious Starmie are anything spectacular, although there's always the potential for hax to occur and Jolt gets to open up some holes in the opposing team. It's a pretty mediocre sleep absorber and most of the time it just ends up trading status. Don't get me wrong, it's a solid lead and can potentially swing a game early on due to solid potential for hax, but I don't think it's anything special in comparison to other leads. Also Gengar has Night Shade and I wouldn't describe Jolt as "shrugging off" a Jynx Blizzard as it's a 3HKO. Lastly there's always the possibility that GolDon switch in right off the bat, which negates Jolt entirely, albeit at the expense of very useful info.

Also just so you know, Tbolt has a higher average damage than Pin Missile vs literally every Psychic bar Egg.

Also Hip why do you say Lap's better vs Lax/Tauros? Like I wouldn't argue that as a general point, but in those specific matchups I'll take Cuno's faster KO every time (I also think it's currently in the appropriate rank)
 

Hipmonlee

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I am just going from memory, but I am fairly sure that 1v1 against both Snorlax and Tauros a Lapras is more likely to get the KO than Articuno is.

And in practice the issue with Articuno against Normals is that switching into either one it has a reasonable chance of dying without getting a single attack off. Especially against Tauros, but a paraslam + an FP happens often enough that I would not consider Articuno an effective response to Snorlax at all.
 
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