OU RBY OU Viability Rankings

Hipmonlee

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Tauros
Snorlax
Chansey
Starmie
Exeggutor
Alakazam
Jynx
Rhydon
Zapdos
Gengar
Jolteon
Cloyster
Slowbro
Victreebel
Lapras
Dragonite
Hypno
Articuno
Golem
Kabutops
Moltres
Omastar
Porygon
Persian
Kangaskhan
Machamp
Poliwrath
Sandslash
Venusaur
Clefable
Electabuzz
Raichu
Primeape
Pinsir
Golduck
Dodrio
Dugtrio
Tentacruel
Kingler
Gyarados
Charizard
Flareon


If we still care about such things, the cut off for UU is between Slowbro and Victreebel.
 
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Overall pretty lukewarm list without any crazy takes but I will explain the more unique rankings:

:Zapdos: and :Rhydon:
Without Rhydon or Jolteon on the opposing team Zapdos becomes one of, if not the most valuable Pokemon in the match. This is no revelation and has been known to be true but I think it is undervalued. While especially Rhydon is a very good Pokemon in RBY, the teams it can fit on are very limited. JynxDon is cool and my favorite Don team, MieEggDon is solid although slightly suspect with fakelead mie being the only fast Pokemon and ZamMieDon is passable. With all of this in mind Zapdos teams can gear themselves to have a healthy matchup against the most popular Rhydon structures. Lastly, Rhydon usually doesnt play Rest, and even Jolteon often drops it in favor of pin missile so you can alternate between Tauros doubles and permanent chip damage with Drill Peck while swapping in Egg or Mie/Unparad Beam Chansey on Bslam. You can also improve your direct Rhydon matchup through other means like EQ Reflax, Psychic or more dedicated Mega Drain/Toxic Gengar or the already mentioned Beam Chansey. https://pokepast.es/759909e872a68768 This is my favorite structure for that end but its not the only way to go, Rest/MDrain Egg obviously helps a lot against Rhydon also.

:Moltres:
The primary problem I have with this Pokemon is how poorly it matches into godking Starmie. Yes you can put it into Hyper Beam range through Para and Fire Spin but a lot of players/structures like to keep unstatused backmie and will sacrifice/risk other things before letting Starmie get statused even if youve never revealed Moltres. And if you've paralyzed it you still risk forever being unable to break Mie with Moltres again every time you use a 75% accurate move to deal 3-3.7% while having to put mie at 37% to kill it reliably with HBeam. I don't think it unfreezing Pokemon with Fire Blast really knocks it down that much because you probably dont want to run the most freeze-spamming Pokemon setup alongside it, and you will only freeze based off lucky random attacks which will be nice regardless. Still, this is obviously a downside as opposed to something thats good. Ultimately I'm not the biggest fan and would rather run a full on wrapper like Dnite or simply play Articuno in it's place.
 
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Heroic Troller

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The rankings don't reflect what i think of them overall, but rather for the state of the tier right now (that will inevitably change again). The main reason for most of these are the rise of Surf+Thunderbolt Starmie as the prominent moveset, and Rhydon's usage being lower than ever (it's still high but less than before).

Chansey tends to be disrespected far too much. If being the only premier switch into Starmie, the most centraling pokemon of the early game after Snorlax wasn't enough Chansey offers a wide array of possibilities. Much like Starmie itself, only mons that are easy to abuse like to switch into it (Chansey, Alakazam) while Snorlax getting the par swings the momentum in your favor for the time being. Chansey is extremely versatile and can trade or keep at bay every single pokemon in the tier to some extent. It should never be below third in my mind. Sing is also the political correct attack, the best players try to avoid missing three in a row in endgames, the less experienced ones can always bank on it for some solid comeback chances.

Exeggutor is as strong as i always preached, for a long time following paraspam it was direspected and flat out not understood. But it's clear today that he is a top dog, the Psychic is extremely corrosive, when you have to switch something paralized into it it's already a siege. Explosion is very nasty to play around early game when you don't know the match up and how much willing to trade he is, while wanting to stay full to avoid switching on it damaged and dying to """bad luck""". The real winner is of course Starmie, simply put switching on it is a nightmare, only thunderbolt Chansey does it with some dignity, the rest of pokedex hates being paralized. And we all know how games proceed from Chansey clicking Soft Boiled. That being said, Starmie being so centralizing is also his own downfall, it needs thunderbolt to stay competitive in the mirrors and a stab to fend of Snorlax, leaving the coverage weak to some specific enemies.

After a period of drought people got too disrespectful about Zapdos and started to run Surf Starmie + Exeggutor teams without much care. Useless to say after some time the Zapdos returned and farmed them with ease. I will never get tired of saying that Zapdos might as well be Tauros tier (if not above) when it's not checked. The worst rby mu (that doesn't involve non standards like Slowbro) has to be Zapdos unchecked. At least Zapdos on Rhydon or Snorlax on Gengar you have the tools to navigate (double switch the Tauros on them) and the game is relatively in your hands. When it's time to click Rest with Snorlax, and Zapdos decided to crit once or twice you can start your prayers.
With a special preference for slow games where Starmie (being Surf) and Rest Snorlax give it ample time to pry open teams. This doesn't even account that most games i'm watching the Zapdos users Thunderbolts into Chansey (because they can afford it), when they will learn to be bolder and Drill Peck the switch correctly it will be clear how ridicolously strong it is.

Dragonite is way more scary than people give it credit for, the only reason i restrained myself from running it until playoffs is that i didn't want to make it popular at my own expense down the line. Starmie dropping blizzard is a massive incentive to run it, even when par (by all means, awful) you can switch into it, wrap once and switch out. Now this isn't some incredible gamebreaking thing, it's a patchwork at best, but it's still a hell lot better than what it was before. Many think Gengar simply shuts it down, they are wrong. The match up goes roughly like this, Gengar blocks wrap from doing damage which is big but at the same time, he's not immune to flinching so Tauros can come in at any time, for free, on a pokemon he scares off, Tauros you know? And even putting that aside, Dragonite with twave is even advantaged in a straight 1v1, just run the calcs. Dragonite is by far the most underrated pokemon of today, and i don't mind letting it be known now, spl is over and rbywc i can't say i care about it at all. Victreebel is in a similar boat, as long as Starmie runs surf bolt it will never be truly awful, even just as a switch and force out.

Jynx is at her worst, ever. Gengar leads are prominent, Surf Starmie everywhere greatly limiting the ice fish chances once you slept, or worse, ready to 2hko you with a crit from lead. You need to be a wizard to find yourself a lead Alakazam vs some opponents, and even then, the Chansey might be Seismic Toss Sing who is unplayable. Even then, at the end of the day a sleeper is a sleeper, whatever can spread your usages a little bit and free you from running Sing Chansey deserves praise. Maybe the future will be more gentle but today running Jynx is really hard.

Stand proud Cloyster, you are strong. The recent explosion of Zapdos usage was merciless to Cloyster but doesn't change the fact that if you can dodge that mu (or ready yourself to judge if it's there or not in game and boom early) Cloyster doesn't at all fear the competition of the other ou pokemons. His special property of switching into Snorlax as reliably at it gets while being perfectly able to explode and not waste momentum should never be overlooked.

Jolteon's stocks have never been higher since Nails made it look good back in SPL XI. Simply put the lead is a massive headache for anyone that didn't bring Rhydon. It isn't op or anything but finding the right sequence can be challenging while this little fucker crits 1/4 of his attacks. None of the sleepers are particularly happy to deal with him. It's pretty much the best Jynx anti-lead you can ask for if you don't trust your Gengar. Slightly more likely to bs it than even Surf Starmie, while having Starmie in the back. It's a stronger lead Alakazam in term of bullshit potential but trades with the risk of Rhydon turn 1, and the lack of Recover that makes harder to sleep sack it properly. Against the right opponent who doesn't know what to do, it will do more damage than hail to harvest.
 
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S+


S

A+

A

B

C


S+
same old story. Tauros wins games, Snorlax gets walled. Well, it could get walled especially if you use greedy movesets that are just op otherwise.
S

Starmie is just too relevant during all of the phases of a game, and its value late game makes it number three for me. Chansey is more versatile and it's ok to rank it higher than Starmie.
A+
I can see Exeggutor is receiving some appreciation again. Same old reason: early game, sleep and boom. And Surf Starmie! Alakazam is very good, especially if you can control opposing Snorlax thanks to paralysis or by walling it.
A
This is time for Zapdos to shine again, even though I don't think this is going to last for too long. Not the proudest moment for Rhydon: I get the feeling Ice Beam is very common for Chansey, Exeggutor is used a lot for early game purposes and Gengar is running Psychic. Still, it's very good at what it does and it's going to punish the Zapdos greed.
Gengar is being used a lot and with success. It definitely needs an expert pilot, but it's a natural answer to many cheap stuff like monolax and Jynx.
B
early game cheap shots. Cloyster has fallen out of grace a bit: players are shoving love for Beambolt Chansey, the game is becoming too fast for Cloyster to spam ice and Zapdos is thriving. Starmie Rhydon S4 has adapted by optimizing its moves.
C
isn't consistent but it's very dangerous and cheap.
can also be very dangerous with the Agility setup.
It's a good moment for Zapdos and so is for Jolteon, especially as a lead. It needs some good building when used in the back. Anyway, Zapdos is also a reason not to use Jolteon.
I stand by my take: I like Articuno better because Blizzard hits Zapdos and Rhydon, and overall consistency.
I used it while I could. Not his time anymore, but it can surprise those who lower their guard.
You set up for it, it's going to be dangerous. Gengar and Zapdos are too common though.
Gengar again.
some players are showing some love for the good old parafusion set again. High five.
Best gimmick.

On a personal note it's too bad last World Cup doesn't matter (this one is ongoing). I wasn't ready to play during last Invitational, which is on me, and I'm not very active. Quite an unique case. So it's ok to drop the ball to my colleagues I guess.
 


Takes

:exeggutor: :starmie:
Egg teams are overall > Mie teams. Zam Egg and Gar Egg are overall better than Zam Mie and Gar Mie (let's say like Zap last), and being able to sleep opens up the rest of the team more. The main opportunity to run Mie without Egg is with Jynx, but Jynx is at a relative low right now.

:alakazam: :zapdos: :rhydon:
Big 6 is not the only Zam team. It doesn't have the same coverage issues as Mie, is better at scaring out Gar, and is better in the back vs boltbeam Chans or just Zap. Speaking of, Zap Don are very close but I'll give the edge to Zap because of bullshit potential + teams being less restricted (Don teams are kind of awkward given the bull weakness if Mie ever gets status'd).

:gengar: :jynx:
Gar is solid both at lead and in the back. Lead Gar involves lots of mindgames but you can still recover from a deficit there. I'd say it's much harder for Jynx to overcome deficits vs things like Gar, hbeam Egg, and singtoss Chans. However, Jynx is still the best anti-lead vs a blizz spamming Mie so that is always appealing.

:jolteon:
Much better at lead, rest is passive and exploitable.

A lot of the remaining mons can be hard to justify but also have appealing qualities.
 
My rankings don't matter but I'll share them anyway
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My trashmon rankings are a mixed bag tbh- some of them I'm very confident in owing to practical experience, others are primarily theorymon. There are also some fringe pokemon that I should have a much more solid opinion on than I currently do tbh
 
Even though there are different opinions even on 1-11 ranks, at this point I'd like to put the focus on the 12-19 like area. There are clearly two worlds:
rank how you want them, they are standard stuff. Then you have other stuff, and Slowbro has officially joined the group due to the current trends. If Kaz stops at 11, it means it's 11.

This is how I ranked the second group. On a second thought I realize I could've put Jolteon at 12 and kept Slowbro at 13 or 12, but I decided to push things that can sweep (possibily with high speed, Agility): you couldn't see me ranking Dragonite and Articuno this high.
To some degree, 1-11 ranks are based on consistency and 1-12 are based on some kind of "live the dream" logic. Or at least this is how I looked at this at the time I posted. I ranked Articuno particularly high compared to other players.
 
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Hipmonlee

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That depends a little, according to the process we set out, only me and Gastlies provided a cutoff from what I can see, and by that system Vic is OU.

However, if you assume that unranked Pokemon should be considered UU then GoF and Kaz both voted for all three to be UU, in which case it would be a tie, and I assume in the case of a tie they would still be OU, but I havent got the time to check that right now. Including those votes does bias the system to a little towards making stuff UU, since youre including the votes of people who remembered to provide a cutoff as well as another set of voters who we only can consider their votes because they considered very few pokemon OU.

Also, only two (or 4) votes is a pretty shit thing to base the decision off.
 

gastlies

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We could just hold another vote between the submitters on whether the Jolt/Vic/Bro trio should be OU or UU. Should be a simple vote really, all 3 in OU or all 3 in UU should be the only options, since splitting the tier is nonsense due to Vapicuno’s method being based on the fact that the mons in a subtier are pretty much interchangeable.
 
Seeing Persian at the same level as Articuno is absolutely boggling my mind. I get that it's got cool tools nobody else does, but it's PERSIAN
Are you suggesting that Persian shouldn't be ranked as highly as it currently is? Because not only does it got unique tools, these tools can be highly valuable in today's metagame:

- Persian is probably the most effective Pokemon at applying pressure to a resting Reflect Snorlax. Unlike special attackers, it's not as easy to switch into
- It enables the usage of Physical Snorlax, and we all know what that guy does.
- Persian can match-up favorably against two prevalent teams: Triple Psy and Mie Egg Don. While these matchups may not be as favorable as Rhydon vs Zapdos for example, with the right maneuvering, particularly during the sleep phase, you can get into advantageous positions.
- With the discovery of Growl, Persian can now pose a threat in the Tauros 1v1 match-up, providing a more balanced encounter compared to before, thus avoiding consistently loading a difficult Tauros match-up (like you do everytime you load Rhydon)

If anything, Persian feels much more consistent and legitimate as a choice than it did a few years ago. It's obviously hard to precisely evaluate that given its historical lack of popularity (we had Victreebel days but never had Persian days), but its niche role is evident and aligns with the typical characteristics of a C2-rank Pokemon: flaws alongside valuable attributes that can justify it as a sporadic pick.

Nobody is going to say Persian is excellent of course, as its flaws are obvious and well-known: Slash can't crit more than it already does, classic 4MSS, and some top tier pokemon can really be pests (Starmie, Zapdos, Cloyster, and obviously Gengar who is quite common right now). Still, it occupies a similar space as Articuno, Dragonite, or Lapras—less consistent than C1+ rank Pokemon but capable of providing specific value in some scenarios.

Had I submitted a VR, I would've put Persian above Moltres, Lapras, and Dragonite. But generally speaking, the C2 ranking seems to boil down to personal preference for each player. So the final result is fine.

By the way since I have talked about it on the RBY discord with other players, I believe the Persian OU analysis warrants an update, as its current recommended moveset is quite different from the one presented:

- Slash
- Body Slam
- Bubble Beam
- Growl / Thunderbolt / (Hyper Beam)

Body Slam is necessary to actually be able to kill Reflect Snorlax.
Growl significantly improves the Tauros matchup. Even though the trick is known, opponents who scout you must respect it, allowing you to generate unsettling mindgames and alter their approach to the 1v1. It also allows you to apply the speed drop in some scenarios (Starmie).
Thunderbolts hits Water-types harder and can crit against Starmie.

... and Hyper Beam honestly appears a lot less appealing than the two other moves. It's a desperation move you click before dying which means that around 80% of the time it doesn't do a lot more than Slash. It provides a slight damage boost (3-4%) which is not nothing as it can get you kills when Slash would've fell short, but it hardly justifies foregoing the potential benefits of Growl or Thunderbolt IMO.
 

emma

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After vapicuno's post, a vote was held between qualified rankers as to if the RBY OU/UU Cutoff was BEFORE "C1" (where Jolteon, Slowbro, and Victreebel would be UU) and AFTER "C1" (where Jolteon, Slowbro, and Victreebel would be OU).

Per results, the RBY OU/UU Cutoff will be AFTER "C1" and Jolteon, Slowbro, and Victreebel will be OU.

Please update Victreebel to RBY OU on PS!, thanks! Marty dhelmise
 

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