OU RBY OU Wrap - Community Pulse

Sceptross

Things start splitting at the seams and now
is a Community Contributor
Hello RBY community!

I come to you on behalf of the RBY OU Council - me, Serpi, Nails, and nicole7735 - in order to take the pulse of the community in a more objective manner on a subject that has been gaining a lot of traction recently: a potential ban of partial trapping moves.

Over the past few months, we have been seeing a notorious rise in usage of teams revolving around Wrap. Some examples include the traditional Dragonite/Victreebel usage that has been a fringe pick over the past few years as seen, for instance, in the following two replays:

ABR vs Serpi, Round 5 of RBY Invitational: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-783866
Amaranth vs ABR, Round 4 of RBY Invitational: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-782595

However, what we have been seeing lately is a rise in usage (and wins) using not only the aforementioned Dragonite and Victreebel, but also their pre-evolutions Weepinbel and Dragonair, as seen in the following three replays, for instance:

M Dragon vs Isza, quarter-finals of Smogon Classic Playoffs: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-798452
Luthier vs Soulwind, Round 4 of RBY Cup: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-787160
ABR vs BlazingDark, Round 6 of RBY Invitational: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-784895

This phenomenon has been stirring up the debate on banning Wrap or partial trapping moves as a whole. They have always been a topic of considerable controversy due to being perceived as uncompetitive and "cheap" - they were banned from RBY OU many years ago (namely, in the RBY2K10 era), and a survey on a potential Wrap ban was held in 2019, with 45% of people favouring taking some form of action against Wrap. Moreover, Wrap teams are very strong against very common archetypes that are perceived healthy and desirable for the tier (one such example being MieDon teams), effectively locking them down, turning them into a matchup fish strategy too.

It is then the perception of the council that support for a Wrap/partial trapping ban has been higher than ever. With this in mind, we would like to hear the community on this matter - should action be taken against Wrap and/or other partial trapping moves? Right now, the council and the old gen council heads see 3 possible courses of action:

1) Banning partial trapping moves as a whole - this is the most extreme option and includes banning Wrap, Clamp, Fire Spin and Bind. Simple and straightforward.

2) Banning just Wrap - a lot of people argue that Wrap is the only troublesome one out of the aforementioned 4 partial trapping moves. All other 3 moves have low PP and/or low accuracy. Wrap has very high PP (32) and very high accuracy (85%), which enhances the uncompetitive nature of the mechanic, rather than the arguably more competitive aspect of it acting as a pseudo-Volt Switch/U-Turn. Wrap users are also the ones who actually have access to reliable paralysis tools in order to slow down the faster checks (Stun Spore in Weepinbel and Victreebel's case, Thunder Wave in Dragonair and Dragonite's case).

3) Do nothing. Always an option.

Notably, option 2 is more specifically tailored towards stopping the uninteractive 3x/4x Wrap/paralysis spreader stacking builds that have been showing up lately, whereas option 1 naturally just stops flat any partial trapping-related strategy.

Secondly, banning any particular Pokémon is not something on the table right now, as the uncompetitive nature of the new Wrap-stacking teams is not dependent on 1 or 2 particular abusers and simply stacks bodies that can use Wrap and induce paralysis, which means we are only considering taking action against moves.

Lastly, I once again stress the fact I'm coming to you on behalf of the RBY Council - your posts and reactions will take part in determining further action by the RBY OU council regarding the future of the tier, so I ask of you to stay civil and serious about this matter.

Let me hear your thoughts!
 
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A while ago in primeapes cord Amaranth proposed the idea of limiting wrap to one user per team, and I really liked the idea because I do think wrap users do have valuable niches for putting limits on slow teams, and it really only becomes problematic when they’re just lining up for each other and there are 2-4 on the same team. I understand this would be a complex ban, so I am merely proposing it to see if it’s something people would support or if it’s even allowed under our current tiering framework.

Other than that, absolutely do not ban all partial trapping lol. No serious player thinks Cloyster’s clamp or Moltres’ fire spin is a serious issue for the health of the tier.

If I had to pick between the other two options, I’m not entirely certain, but I lean slightly towards no action because the best wrap users (vic and dnite) are niche and inconsistent picks that really only thrive against slow teams. I absolutely wouldn’t mind a wrap ban though if it came down to it and I could be easily swayed towards choosing ban.

Overall though, no action > ban wrap >>>> ban all pt
 
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A while ago in primeapes cord Amaranth proposed the idea of limiting wrap to one user per team, and I really liked the idea because I do think wrap users do have valuable niches for putting limits on slow teams, and it really only becomes problematic when they’re just lining up for each other and there are 2-4 on the same team. I understand this would be a complex ban, so I am merely proposing it to see if it’s something people would support or if it’s even allowed under our current tiering framework.

Other than that, absolutely do not ban all partial trapping lol. No serious player thinks Cloyster’s clamp or Moltres’ fire spin is a serious issue for the health of the tier.

If I had to pick between the other two options, I’m not entirely certain, but I lean slightly towards no action because the best wrap users (vic and dnite) are niche and inconsistent picks that really only thrive against slow teams. I absolutely wouldn’t mind a wrap ban though if it came down to it and I could be easily swayed towards choosing ban.
This option has been discussed, but because it goes against tiering policy, it was not considered for the final set of options.

I'm going to ask everyone to not suggest any other option - these 3 options are the ones on the table right now, and suggesting other options in this thread will derail the conversation. Feel free to DM me on Discord if you have a suggestion that you think would adhere to tiering policy and could solve the issue and I will bring it up to the rest of the council, but please don't post it here. Don't worry, we will hear you and discuss it. We just don't want the thread to focus too much on issues that we already went through in our discussion together.
 
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Amaranth proposal > Do nothing > Ban just Wrap > Ban every partial trapping move.

Several years ago, when I first played RBY, I hated partial trapping moves and wanted them banned. Since then, I learned to respect them and don,t consider them broken/unhealthy anymore. You do need to play differently vs Wrappers than you do vs other things, but the accuracy limits these moves a lot, often one miss at the wrong moment means the wrapper is paralyzed or dead. Gengar is a common OU Mon too, it completely stops all the wrappers, just don,t waste it as a lead and you will be fine. I don,t think this tier needs Bans at all, even less Wrap.
 
unfortunately the tiering council has decided that the option that the majority of the playerbase wants is off the table (thanks guys!) so the only remaining option is to do nothing

let's not go down the road with the absolute insanity other oldgens have been carrying out and banning any niche thing with any random chance attached, there's just no need and it makes the metagame much shallower. the existence of niche options that punish unbalanced scouts helps keeping some skill expression in the builder, if you spam too much rhydon it's good that victreebel exists in the metagame to punish you. losing that is clearly undesirable imo.

the wrapstack teams have a much stronger argument towards being uncompetitive, but they honestly haven't really shown too much promise either. a handful of recent replays + some enigami history is not really enough for me. it's a 20 year old metagame, we can wait for more than 3 replays (one of which a loss) before we rush into action

i don't even think a vote is good, i feel like most people do not have enough data to vote accurately. 3 replays is not enough data. i think we keep this on the radar and talk again after spl, maybe after next classic, and see if they prove to be a continuous issue
 
I've felt that partial trapping is only an issue when combined with agility. Otherwise, I think the moves provide another niche option to punish specific archetypes that are otherwise quite popular.

Moreover, Wrap teams are very strong against very common archetypes that are perceived healthy and desirable for the tier (one such example being MieDon teams)
I don't see this as a problem; Rather, this an option to take advantage of a solid team that sacrifices speed for balanced power/defense. That's an exploitable weakness.
I will concede wrap itself has a lot of pp and is hard to stall out, and when a whole team is wrappers, that specific counterplay isn't available. I also expect wrap teams will continue to improve (along the noted trend), and I could see them becoming an issue in the future. Personally, I wouldnt take action until that concern manifests, as in the meantime I find the interactions interesting (at least in OU).

Overall, I'd support Agil+PT, but otherwise no action. Since Sceppie said no other proposals, I'll conclude voting as following. [quick edit to add I support Amaranth's last paragraph]

No action>Ban Wrap>Ban all PT
 
My vote opinion is 3) Do Nothing = X) Ban Agi+PT > 2) Ban Wrap > 1) Ban PT.

Looking through the replays, it isn't doing anything to convince me that NFE wrap teams are a problem.

M Dragon vs Isza, quarter-finals of Smogon Classic Playoffs: Isza brought Wrap and lost even with a lucky freeze vs. Exeggutor that kept Tauros healthy. Quite fortunate as Exeggutor I find tends to be one of the best slow responses to Wrap. Exeggutor helps to contain Razor Leaf damage and often punches holes in my wrap teams when wrap misses.

Luthier vs Soulwind, Round 4 of RBY Cup: Soulwind misplayed in multiple instances. On turn 50, Soulwind brings in Snorlax to deal with Starmie and later sacks Exeggutor to get drops on Starmie and let Snorlax Rest up. Sacking Exeggutor to bring in Snorlax safely would be a good move, except Dragonair was already revealed. That meant at minimum, Dragonite and Victreebel were lurking around the corner. Firstly, I would've brought in Rhydon in vs. Starmie, not Snorlax. Weepinbell sealed it but against Dragonite + Victreebel, Rhydon was already very low value so even taking a Blizzard would not have mattered much. Secondly, resting up Snorlax wasn't going to be of much help no matter how much HP it had due to being vulnerable to both Wrap and Victreebel's Sleep Powder. I would've boomed on Starmie to atleast stop it from getting in the way of my own Starmie and Tauros, and use Snorlax as a sleep sack if I get pinned in an uncomfortable position vs. Victreebel. Turn 46-47 was also a blunder in my opinion. Soulwind saw the Dragonair, he should've known that Tauros + Starmie were his only tools to handle Dragonite + Victreebel (and Weepinbell, but Soulwind didn't have confirmation on that yet). Risking Tauros to a crit HB or freeze was not ideal as that would put all the weight on Starmie to get lucky vs. the wrappers. Towards the end, things were pretty dire as it was but Soulwind clicks Rock Slide vs. Dragonite. Perhaps it was a Body Slam-less set, but if it wasn't, Body Slam was the play to make. If Dragonite got paraslammed, Dragonite would have to reset Agility and not FP, leaving a path to victory with Tauros critting Victreebel with HB. Despite having one of the worst possible matchups in MieDon vs. Dragonite, Dragonair, Victreebel AND Weepinbell, I think there was a path to victory here.

ABR vs BlazingDark, Round 6 of RBY Invitational: This one I think BlazingDark messed up by trading Alakazam for Dragonair way too early. Again, if you see Dragonair you should probably be expecting not only Dragonite but also Victreebel. Cloyster still had a ton of health for Dragonair to chew through, while a paralyzed Cloyster vs. Victreebel is useless. If Victreebel had switched in on Cloy, Jynx was still healthy enough to take a Razor Leaf and force Wrap for Alakazam to get in vs. Victreebel, the far greater threat to BD's team. A single miss for Dragonair vs. Cloyster would've clinched it for BD I think, a dead Dragonair would've meant Victreebel would've been answered by Alakazam and the game wouldn't have depended on Tauros. Even then, if Victreebel had gotten paraslammed or missed, that also could've been game over for ABR. There wasn't much opportunity in that game, but if that Jynx had Rest, finding an opening to use that would be huge. An unstatused Jynx is probably the single scariest threat for Wrap spam teams except maybe Articuno.

Smacks of a knee-jerk reaction to me, and reminds me a bit of the reaction to Toxic Spin spam in early NU. Matchup inexperience seemed to play a part in the wins shown here, where stronger threat assessment could've put Soulwind and BlazingDark in better positions to handle the wrap spam. Now that players are *finally* starting to look at para-wrap spam as an actual threat, we could see adaptation in play style to answer para-wrap once it is revealed. And it'd be a shame to eliminate an entire playstyle that is only beginning to be properly explored. We've come a long way since the days of solo AgiliNite cheese, with the VicNite combo, VicNiteBok's rise and sunset, Tangela sweeps, and the rise of the NFEs. There's a surprising amount of team variety you can do with Wrap, from a lone Dragonite or Victreebel to 5x wrap spam. I've even found a 6x wrap team that seems to work. And these teams often bring multiple Pokemon normally never seen in OU. At the very least, it'd be nice to give a chance for a team archetype that is bringing more variety and proof that such a venerable and limited game like RBY is still evolving and growing. It might come to be that wrap gets optimized to the point that it truly becomes an issue where stronger players play optimally and still lose too often against noticeably weaker players, but we should wait until that becomes the case rather than pre-emptively banning it in fear that it might.

Secondly, banning any particular Pokémon is not something on the table right now, as the uncompetitive nature of the new Wrap-stacking teams is not dependent on 1 or 2 particular abusers and simply stacks bodies that can use Wrap and induce paralysis, which means we are only considering taking action against moves.

One thing I definitely agree with though is this. If you are trying to stop para-wrap from existing, banning Dragonite and Victreebel would only weaken it, not end it. Wrap teams could compensate with a combination of Dragonair, Weepinbell, Tangela and Arbok. And banning every para-wrapper *except* Dragonite and Victreebel would be silly.
 
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What if we just target the gimmicky mons like Arbok, Dragonair, and Weepinbell?

Reasons:
  1. This adheres to tiering policy. We are banning Pokemon, so anyone who is super strict about tiering policy cannot complain about this
  2. As the OP mentions, the main issue with Wrap is the full Wrap Teams, and Scep specifically cited Dragonair and Weepinbell in his initial post. This lets us preserve Victreebel and Dragonite who on their own are arguably more healthy than full Wrap teams
  3. Since wrap is being targeted from an “uncompetitive” angle instead of a “broken” angle it does not matter that these mons are direct downgrades to their fully-evolved counterparts.
 
3: Do Nothing > 2: Ban Wrap > 1: Ban All PT
Basically every point towards keeping Wrap has already been said well by Enigami and Amaranth, but I just wanted to say that 4 and 5 Wrap teams add an interesting niche to the tier. It's a tool that can be brought into specific scouts to punish common MieEggDon spam, like a more extreme version of the Victreebel teams of old. It's not just random cheese that you bring to try and luck past your opponent. It takes an element of skill to conceal your partial trappers until the fast Psychic types have been paralyzed, as well as to be able to recognise when to pivot out and when to commit to Wrapping your opponent. I believe quite simply that if Wrap was banned it would decrease the variety and charm of this tier.

What if we just target the gimmicky mons like Arbok, Dragonair, and Weepinbell?

Reasons:
  1. This adheres to tiering policy. We are banning Pokemon, so anyone who is super strict about tiering policy cannot complain about this
  2. As the OP mentions, the main issue with Wrap is the full Wrap Teams, and Scep specifically cited Dragonair and Weepinbell in his initial post. This lets us preserve Victreebel and Dragonite who on their own are arguably more healthy than full Wrap teams
  3. Since wrap is being targeted from an “uncompetitive” angle instead of a “broken” angle it does not matter that these mons are direct downgrades to their fully-evolved counterparts.
"Secondly, banning any particular Pokémon is not something on the table right now, as the uncompetitive nature of the new Wrap-stacking teams is not dependent on 1 or 2 particular abusers and simply stacks bodies that can use Wrap and induce paralysis, which means we are only considering taking action against moves."
 
Firmly against option 3 - I don't know how much more we have to see before we act and more games come to pure dice rolls.
I Personally am okay with 1 because I don't think clamp is healthy or interactive even if it's nowhere near wrap, but...
2 is the most palatable and I think that's the way to go.

We don't need wrap allowed to punish "slow teams" and there are plenty of other ways to do so. It's not just about rng it's the fact that there is Literally nothing to do besides pray in most games.

I would be happy to see an official suspect / vote between options 2 and 3. If qualified people vote it banned then great, and if they don't then the issue can be set aside for a while, imo a win-win scenario.

Thank you for making the thread, hopefully we can get real progress here.
 
Although i dont have a really strong opinion here, im against banning Wrap, it pretty much only comes into play in 0-5% of high stakes matches anyway and eyetest says that it doesnt have an outragoues winrate anyway ( ofc if ABR runs it, its winrate is gonna go up naturally ;) ).

What i have a strong opinion on is Clamp, i dont think it would be wise to basically delete Cloyster from the builder, its one of the 11 really viable pokemon we have and besides that im pretty sure that nobody that follows RBY would argue that its broken.

Might just be me but im not a fan of trying to completely delete luck in Pokemon anyway, the good thing about RBY is that this tier can solve the stuff that might be viewed as "uncompetitive" by always being Bo3+ due to its nature and some other unique traits it has.

tldr: Do nothing > Amaranth proposal > Ban just Wrap > Ban every partial trapping move.
 
Do nothing.

The RBY community has been arguing about Wrap forever, but the result hasn’t changed: nobody has managed to get crazy results and dominate with Wrap for a long time (like 1 year+ mostly using it). The reasons are still the same:

1 - It is inconsistent by nature: Wrap is a high-risk, high-reward strategy. It’s much easier to win consistently with solid picks like Rhydon, Zapdos, and your favorite Water-type, which shows that Wrap just isn’t a top-tier strat.

2 - Wrap can give you great matchups (which you deserve if you take the risk of using it), but it also has some terrible ones. Spam Wrap too much, and you'll get countered (hello, Zapdos in every game). And even if you get a good matchup, you're not guaranteed to win because things can go sour very quickly if you miss.

3 - Wrappers are fringe choices. Victreebel is probably the best Wrapper (since Cloyster’s Clamp isn’t its main gig), and it should be played frequently with Mie Egg Don showing up every set, but it’s not because it needs like 6 moves and all of them are inaccurate, so players avoid it. Dragonite is cool because it can sacrifice itself to throw out a clutch Thunder Wave on Starmie or Tauros. If you want to go for the Agility Wrap-spam, it is tough to set-up and you usually have to take 80% from Blizzard just to maybe cripple a team, and until then, Dragonite’s mostly useless. And even when you do set it up, miss Wrap and you’re done for.

Wrap is a legit strategy that indeed "helps keeping some skill expression in the builder". You need to be ready for it and have a good scout. If Victreebel and Dragonite are wrecking you because you run SurfBolt on every Starmie, that’s on you. If your scout is slow and gets bullied by Wrappers, that’s also on you—maybe stop running Chansey all the time (I'm not even mentionning Gengar). If you get worn down by Arbok or Tangela after they've paralyzed your key pieces, it's no different from getting steamrolled by a Lapras or Persian once your crucial Pokemon are paralyzed. Teams like Enigami’s full Wrap squad are just like that degenerate Agility Sharpen Porygon set I always lose to when I come back after a break because I forget about it. Sure, you might get surprised once, but if these trash-tier mons keep beating you every time, maybe the problem isn’t them.

Also, I’ll never understand how players who want Wrap banned because it "takes control away from the players" don’t go after Tauros. That thing is way more luck-based and ridiculous than any Wrap user could ever hope to be, and both players use it in literally every single game.

So, if you want Wrap banned, just admit it’s because you find it annoying, not because it’s broken or takes control out of your hands. If losing control or RNG was really the issue, you’d have pushed for a Tauros suspect years ago.
 
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I vote to eliminate Wrap, and the reason is that Wrap is annoying to me. Why? Because Wrap is that: an annoying move that forces you to play unpleasantly long games. I vote to eliminate Wrap not because I lose to Wrap but because it takes me too long to win against it. I'm tired of being forced to face the 32 pp of Vic Wrap + the 32 pp of Nite Wrap to win one game. Wrap may not be an unbalanced move that gives an excessive advantage to the user, but it is annoying for the opponent, either because most of the time its effectiveness depends on RNG or because it generally forces you to win unnecessarily long games.

Ban that garbage once and for all, please.

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By the way, I speak from my experience playing in the RBY OU Ladder. For me, it has been rare to see Wrap in competitive play, and I haven't had any problems with Wrap this year or in previous years. On the other hand, RBY OU Ladder is the place where I practice, and I don't like wasting unnecessary time there. So, that's the only argument I have for asking to ban that move.
 
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Now, I haven't rly been a full time RBYer in a while, but I must say smth about this.

I agree with Peas's first point and third point where he says wrap is inconsistent + vic nite are the only good wrappers
However, I personally think full Wrap teams, if used smartly have basically no cteam. Yes Zapdos exists, but if you have say 27% Don usage, no one is going to bring zap on you. An occasional full wrap squad can basically delete a Big 6- like team off the face of the Earth. Counterplay does exist in a Big 6 vs Fullwrap mu, but the probabilities are messy af and I personally don't like it.

But I don't want to ban wrap. I personally enjoy using Victreebel occasionally and I think it's a very healthy mon for the tier if the opponent actually bothers to see if there is any past use of it. Playing against Vic is actually not very difficult imo if you consider that there may be a vic in the back. And ofc everyone knows Dragonite is not a problem.

Also, the higher the stakes of the battle, the more you are rewarded for bringing wrap as that "occasional fullwrap bring" may just win you a finals set. That is also why I feel ABR brings wrap more than the normal person(though it is only part of the reason). He plays more high stake games and tricks his scouts in a lot. Ofc it should also be mentioned that ABR is extremely lucky.

I rly like Ama's proposal and that's probably the best case. But if we're choosing purely on the options listed in the original post by Sceptross, then I'd say that:

No Action > Ban Wrap >>>>> Ban all PT

I think Cloyster is a rly good mon and basically wiping its functionality is not something you wanna do. Like Felix mentioned we only have 11 good mons in the first place. Also yes Moltres is cool.

In conclusion, Ama's proposal is cool and tiering policy is cringe.
 
Hello RBY community!

I come to you on behalf of the RBY OU Council - me, Serpi, Nails, and nicole7735 - in order to take the pulse of the community in a more objective manner on a subject that has been gaining a lot of traction recently: a potential ban of partial trapping moves.

Over the past few months, we have been seeing a notorious rise in usage of teams revolving around Wrap. Some examples include the traditional Dragonite/Victreebel usage that has been a fringe pick over the past few years as seen, for instance, in the following two replays:

ABR vs Serpi, Round 5 of RBY Invitational: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-783866
Amaranth vs ABR, Round 4 of RBY Invitational: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-782595

However, what we have been seeing lately is a rise in usage (and wins) using not only the aforementioned Dragonite and Victreebel, but also their pre-evolutions Weepinbel and Dragonair, as seen in the following three replays, for instance:

M Dragon vs Isza, quarter-finals of Smogon Classic Playoffs: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-798452
Luthier vs Soulwind, Round 4 of RBY Cup: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-787160
ABR vs BlazingDark, Round 6 of RBY Invitational: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-784895
At first: I don't really undestand why this topic has "gained a lot of traction recently" to begin with. apart from those 3 replays I could find 3 more:
Luthier vs. mind gaming, semi-finals of Smogon Classic Playoffs: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-800547?p2
Vileman vs. Amaranth, Week 2 of RBYPL: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-797517
Vileman vs. Cakeconnesseur, Week 4 of RBYPL: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-802335

In RBYPL that represents usage of 0.35% for Weepinbel. Combining all 6 replays I see 3 W and 3 L for the Wrap Team. I'm not saying I checked evey replay on the site but it does not seem to me like "a notorious rise in usage and wins".


This phenomenon has been stirring up the debate on banning Wrap or partial trapping moves as a whole. They have always been a topic of considerable controversy due to being perceived as uncompetitive and "cheap" - they were banned from RBY OU many years ago (namely, in the RBY2K10 era), and a survey on a potential Wrap ban was held in 2019, with 45% of people favouring taking some form of action against Wrap. Moreover, Wrap teams are very strong against very common archetypes that are perceived healthy and desirable for the tier (one such example being MieDon teams), effectively locking them down, turning them into a matchup fish strategy too.
Firstly: I am not exactly up-to-date with the metagame which means some of my thoughts might be outdated. Still, I believe I can say some things that make sense, at least in my head.

I am not known for disliking MieEggDon, I belive. And I do not want to evaluate the thruthfulness of that statement. But assuming that it's true, taking this as an argument to take action against Wrap Teams feels wrong to me. In my view we should be glad that somebody had the idea to optimize the strategy and actually bring the NFEs to OU games. I would not have had this idea to be honest. Great somebody did and pushes the metagame forward. If this really catches on, other trends will follow. The players will figure out how to deal with this, I am not worried. And if this means that MieEggDon will drop in usage a bit that is not a problem. From What I understand the team has been the No.1 used team for quite some time. It does not hurt to have that change, in principle, rather it's probably a good thing.


It is then the perception of the council that support for a Wrap/partial trapping ban has been higher than ever. With this in mind, we would like to hear the community on this matter - should action be taken against Wrap and/or other partial trapping moves? Right now, the council and the old gen council heads see 3 possible courses of action:

1) Banning partial trapping moves as a whole - this is the most extreme option and includes banning Wrap, Clamp, Fire Spin and Bind. Simple and straightforward.

2) Banning just Wrap - a lot of people argue that Wrap is the only troublesome one out of the aforementioned 4 partial trapping moves. All other 3 moves have low PP and/or low accuracy. Wrap has very high PP (32) and very high accuracy (85%), which enhances the uncompetitive nature of the mechanic, rather than the arguably more competitive aspect of it acting as a pseudo-Volt Switch/U-Turn. Wrap users are also the ones who actually have access to reliable paralysis tools in order to slow down the faster checks (Stun Spore in Weepinbel and Victreebel's case, Thunder Wave in Dragonair and Dragonite's case).

3) Do nothing. Always an option.

Notably, option 2 is more specifically tailored towards stopping the uninteractive 3x/4x Wrap/paralysis spreader stacking builds that have been showing up lately, whereas option 1 naturally just stops flat any partial trapping-related strategy.

Secondly, banning any particular Pokémon is not something on the table right now, as the uncompetitive nature of the new Wrap-stacking teams is not dependent on 1 or 2 particular abusers and simply stacks bodies that can use Wrap and induce paralysis, which means we are only considering taking action against moves.

Lastly, I once again stress the fact I'm coming to you on behalf of the RBY Council - your posts and reactions will take part in determining further action by the RBY OU council regarding the future of the tier, so I ask of you to stay civil and serious about this matter.

Let me hear your thoughts!
My thoughts:
3) Do nothing >>>>> 1) Banning partial trapping moves as a whole >> 2) Banning just Wrap

In case it has not been clear: I do not see an issue at the moment at all. I am a big believer in letting the active players of the tier deal with rising trends on their own. The strategy is nothing more than annoying. It is not too strong at all (and I think nobody really believes this). Honestly: If somebody beats me with Weepinbell that is a reason to applaud my opponent rather than cry how unfair the strategy is.

The reason why I (in theory) would favour option 1) over option 2) is because I don't like the inconsistencies in the argumentation. From what I understand banning something can be done because it is a) too powerful / broken or b) "uncompetitive" (I have a problem with that expression in regards to Pokemon anyway because it is very subjective and we have plenty of things that can be argued "uncompetitve" but will (rightfully) never be targeted). People who want something done about Wrap normally do not argue with its brokenness because they know it is too inconsistent (no matter how many weaklings you stack). Rather they argue with its "uncompetitiveness". My understanding of "uncompetitive" is that it is the mechanic of partial trapping itself (maybe in conjunction with some sort of speed modification) that is considered uncompetitive. So consistency demands that if something were to be done about Wrap on the grounds of "uncompetitiveness" then all the arguments apply to the other partial trapping moves as well. If the argument then is that Wrap has more PP and more accuracy, one quickly comes to the territory of actually not arguing on the grouds of "uncompetitiveness" anymore but finds oneself arguing on the basis of the strength of the move Wrap compared to the other partial trapping moves which means indeed arguing on the grounds of brokenness instead. Inconsistent.
To illustrate: If for example sleep would be discussed for an action on the ground of its "uncompetitiveness", surely all sleep moves would be targeted instead of only the 75% accurate ones.
 
Wrap doesn’t just “punish” Rhydon teams to a healthy degree. The punish is extreme and creates a matchup that’s both uninteractive and lopsided. Rhydon has terrible synergy with wrap’s most reliable counterplay (ie. Zapdos, Gengar). If you use Rhydon and don’t go out of your way to feature one of these pokemon, your matchup will be dreadful and expressing skill to outplay is not the most reasonable ask.

“Slow” teams is a buzzword when it comes to describing wrap’s efficacy in punishing standard structures. While victreebel’s razor leaf and wrap combination makes rhydon teams suffer, dragonite is different in that its powerful wrap, hyper beam, agility, and flexible coverage is a huge threat to teams lacking normal resists as well. I would say most standard Zapdos structures would not like to face wrap largely due to being lowkey weak to dnite with sufficient setup.

That said, wrap is of course not that prevalent, and outside of specific structures, games are usually open despite uninteractiveness at times. Wrap has an angle to be considered uncompetitive but also contributes to adding more innovation angles and expressing building skill to punish stagnant metagame trends.

Overall, I’d consider myself indifferent to what happens with wrap, but let’s call a spade a spade and not downplay the dynamics with rhydon teams as well as the strong matchups against teams that aren’t necessarily “slow”. What is slow anyway? Cloyster + Snorlax builds, some slowbro junk. Teams typically falling under that blanket have a lot more pressing issues than wrap, that’s for sure.

Also worth noting that if wrap is banned, sd victreebel is still a good punish to rhydon teams and a usable pokemon.

I think the logical next step is to survey the qualified playerbase similar to how dpp did it and get a better primary read on the situation than a more casual community pulse.
 
“Slow” teams is a buzzword when it comes to describing wrap’s efficacy in punishing standard structures. While victreebel’s razor leaf and wrap combination makes rhydon teams suffer, dragonite is different in that its powerful wrap, hyper beam, agility, and flexible coverage is a huge threat to teams lacking normal resists as well. I would say most standard Zapdos structures would not like to face wrap largely due to being lowkey weak to dnite with sufficient setup.

It's not a buzzword. The three main Wrappers Dragonite, Victreebel, and Cloyster (you can throw Moltres in there too) sit in this mid 70-90 base speed range where they outspeed Exeggutor, Chansey, Snorlax, and Rhydon, but still get outsped by six of the top 11 Pokémon (not counting Jolteon).

You don't have to go as far as running Slowbro to be a "slow team". Mie Egg Don is slow because if you put Starmie to sleep, the only thing left that outspeeds Wrappers is Tauros. And while Tauros can do a lot of damage to Wrappers, it can't guarantee a paralysis, which is really what you're looking for.

Wrappers aren’t as terrifying as you're making them out to be. Most other structures are fine against Wrap because every time you add something faster than a Wrapper, it forces your opponent to go out of his way to paralyse it, which isn't easy to pull off (especially for Wrappers that risk getting paralyzed themselves). If you're running the usual Lead - (Ex) Big 4 - Fast 6th, and you know your opponent might go for Wrap, sleeping Chansey instead of your Psychic Lead to keep a third fast Pokemon will usually do the trick. That's just basic Pokemon prep.

So I don't really get what you mean by "strong matchups against non-slow teams." What teams are those exactly?

As for Agility "All-in" Dragonite, it is a very specific Wrapper and almost a different Pokemon than Twave Dragonite. It has its own set of drawbacks, mainly having to set-up and not being as versatile.

I think the logical next step is to survey the qualified playerbase similar to how dpp did it and get a better primary read on the situation than a more casual community pulse.

I don't believe it is and I full echo Amaranth on this:

1 - To quote him directly: "i feel like most people do not have enough data to vote accurately. 3 replays is not enough data."
2 - As of January 1st, 2025, Wrap still hasn't produced enough results to justify being put to a vote. There's a real risk that players might vote to take action just because they dislike facing Wrap. Just look at GoFs post, he openly admits it. How many players might do the same without saying it?
3 - Since you're taking DPP as an example, 76.5% of players supported a Machamp ban. That seems like a strong majority, but if you read through the Suspect thread, you clearly see that it is a polarizing issue, over a low-usage mon with counterplay, where most of its critics claimed it "takes the game out of players hands". Sound familiar? I don't want to see the same situation unfold in RBY.
 
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Okay I can't state enough that I think the post above me is amazing, but ig I'll throw my 2 cents in

Of the presented options I'd say doing nothing about wrap/PT is MY preferred. since I rlly don't think it's a big issue and while it can definitely be a nuisance, like has been said a few times shit like full wrap just doesn't come up often enough nor win enough to alarm me.

However I understand this is a controversial issue and as such fully support doing a survey to see what people think.

That being said I feel like I should defend my position of it not being an issue so here we go.

On thing I see alot is people saying that, stuff like dragonair/weepinbell getting wins alone like, pushes it over the edge for them and to them means wrap should be taken out. And I can't say I agree with it, while yes weepinbell getting a few rlly lucky games is possibly concerning. Dragonair has always been something I've regarded as almost viable and idt ot appearing alongside dragonite is that shocking or problematic.

Another thing is that I just..don't rlly feel like the main wrap mons are very good and their winrates in tours aren't impressive. Dragonite especially I just, don't think is very good. The mon is full of weaknesses and 4mss holding it back badly, as well as often being one miss away from taking like 80% or eating a para. That being said I've always preferred twave dnite over agil-dnite so maybe I shoot myself in the foot w that.
As far as vic is concerned I think it's pretty fine but not OU caliber and to me that doesn't seek like a broken mon/mon using a broken move.
Almost forgot about cloyster but literally speaking, it has little to do w wrap spam shit and it's presence w clamp and being bulky is super super healthy and I do like what it does here, part of why I'm against banning pt is admittedly because I think killing a big part of cloysters thing to kill a niche strategy that idet is a problem feels weird to me.

A proposal that literally night just be above me somewhere in this thread is, just banning wrap instead of all PT moves and while this would effectively work since it's by far the best move in that category, idt it'd end complaining so I'm hesitant.

That's all I got rn lol
#SavePT
 
So I don't really get what you mean by "strong matchups against non-slow teams." What teams are those exactly?
Most of the 3 normals + Zap teams end up pretty weak to wrap teams, Jynx Egg Zap especially but even Zam Egg Zap and Mie Egg Zap are prone to getting run over. It's an easier time if Chansey is the sleepsack, but Dnite remains a tremendous threat. The interactions between these teams have some skill expression present even if the uninteractive aspects of Wrap still exist.

The more problematic aspect of these teams to me is really just the Rhydon matchup, being punished with an almost autoloss for deciding to load Rhydon is worrying. The low usage and winrate of this strategy doesn't change the fact that you can matchup fish Rhydon teams in a completely uninteractive way, the Rhydon user has almost no tools beyond hoping that the wrapper fully paralyses/misses on the twave trade turn. Rhydon teams should be punished, and the tier has tools available to do so, but in a way that still lets the Rhydon user play the game.
 
Rhydon teams should be punished, and the tier has tools available to do so, but in a way that still lets the Rhydon user play the game.
The point though is that solo Victreebel or Dragonite DO let Rhydon play the game, and they're very healthy in terms of gameplay interactions. The Rhydon player definitely has ample room to outplay, the Vic user has to be really careful not to risk missing at the wrong time, and AgiWrap Dragonite is pretty underwhelming when half of its Wrap PP are burned doing 1% each to Rhydon.

I am not willing to lose this healthy section of the metagame just because some bozos occasionally take (pretty bad) MU fishes and end up landing their Dragonair win. Ideally we'd get rid of the Dragonair wins without touching the solo Wrap stuff, but since that's not an option, I really don't think we should throw out the baby with the bathwater
 
I mean as a low ladder grunt my opinion probably doesn't count for much but how about like surely for a strategy to be uncompetitive the pokemon that enable that strategy should be considered like OU staples ?

Something that attracts me to OU is the lack of rules. Are wrap teams placing like 1st 2nd and 3rd in tournaments ? To me there's no difference between "Oh no my ash ketchum pokemon team doesn't have an answer to this generic big 3 team" and "Oh no my ash ketchum pokemon team doesn't have an answer to this wrap team".

Maybe if say 33% of all tournament games involved one team using wrap then it should get looked at. Or whatever threshold you want to put on it.
 
I think for something to be banned, it needs to be uncompetitive. I do not think that Wrap (or its knockoffs) are uncompetitve. The tier has the tools to handle the bulk of Wrap teams and the sacrifices the gimmicky versions need to make to play that way are not worth it. I do not think any action should happen on partial trapping moves.
 
I think for something to be banned, it needs to be uncompetitive. I do not think that Wrap (or its knockoffs) are uncompetitve. The tier has the tools to handle the bulk of Wrap teams and the sacrifices the gimmicky versions need to make to play that way are not worth it. I do not think any action should happen on partial trapping moves.
Agreed. And I am very against the rising trend of revisiting old OU metas tiering/ban wise. If this was current Gen and not a 20 year old meta game, I’d maybe have a different opinion. Very against any action.
 
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