OU RBY OU Viability Ranking (2013 to 2016)

[Lusch]

Hm ok I see. Guess I just dislike not being able to paralyze Chansey back which Bro can do, and Bro can even outspeed it then thanks to Amnesia, but ok I get it.
Agree with Isa that Wrappers(or at least Dragonite, Cloyster and Victreebel are ok in C I guess) should be ranked B. Something else that bothers me about this list, taking a closer look at it, is actually that Moltres is in E Rank. I mean it's not great and all but E is too low i believe. If the opponent reveals a Moltres and Starmie is not around (anymore) (, and myabe Alakazam is paralyzed, but most likely asleep) it's kinda scary I believe. (It has quite a good chance winnin 1v1 against Tauros and Snorlax). So I think maybe Moltres to D...

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Outspeed thanks to Amnesia?

Slowbro can TW Chansey, but it never ends up being faster because Chansey TWs it right back (or before if you do it first). Then it just fishes for the easy crit.

Not sure about Moltres. The chances that Starmie would be gone outside the late game is slim and that's just only one of the possible Fire resists you need to watch out for. And Fire Spin goes off that terrible accuracy.

 

[Isa]

if both pokemon on the field are paralyzed and pokemon X alters a stat, be it through Amnesia, Psychic, Withdraw or Sand-Attack, the paralysis speed drop of Pokémon Y is reapplied. this is why slowbro can outspeed every mon in the game by using twave and amnesia in conjunction

slowbro is good, top of B-good probably, but not A. (it's also much better when you wanna paralyze starmie rather than chansey, since its quite easy to do the latter)

 

[Golden Gyarados]

if both pokemon on the field are paralyzed and pokemon X alters a stat, be it through Amnesia, Psychic, Withdraw or Sand-Attack, the paralysis speed drop of Pokémon Y is reapplied. this is why slowbro can outspeed every mon in the game by using twave and amnesia in conjunction

Pokemon X doesn't need to be paralyzed for this to work, just the target Pokemon. But it's largely only relevant when both are paralyzed because otherwise the unparalyzed one outspeeds anyway

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

if both pokemon on the field are paralyzed and pokemon X alters a stat, be it through Amnesia, Psychic, Withdraw or Sand-Attack, the paralysis speed drop of Pokémon Y is reapplied. this is why slowbro can outspeed every mon in the game by using twave and amnesia in conjunction

Fuck, I keep forgetting that shit. But outspeeding Chansey hardly matters much, just gives you one extra turn in ahead of it.

 

[Isa]

1. that's huge, esp. vs starmie who has a much higher crit rate
2. it's not the biggest thing either - since you're now faster than (insert opposing mon here) that means that they cannot recover-stall you unless they predict a surf every time, and once they fp they're dead. getting the first hit in is big

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

But who's bringing Starmie in on Slowbro (or leaving it out)? That's the last thing I'd ever send out because of it getting hit by TW, high crit or not.

 

[Isa]

starmie is in a vacuum one of the best non-suicidal responses to slowbro

it resists both surf and psychic
it very often carries tbolt (and twave on the same set)
it can recover off damage taken and thus fish for a fp from slowbro
but most importantly it has a HUGE crit rate of roughly 22,5% - across four turns (amnesia amnesia amnesia surf dead), spamming only tbolt, when paralyzed, you STILL have over 50% (~53%) to get a critical hit on slowbro. compare that to chansey who only has ~25% of getting a crit tbolt through paralysis across four turns

being hit by twave sucks as starmie

being swept by slowbro sucks more.

 

[Lusch]

Exactly, it's simply one of the best, if not the best answer to it! Para hurts it, but I think it hurst other answers such as Jolteon or Zapdos even more...

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

OK, non suicide is a good point, but Starmie taking paralysis is a steep price that's not worth it (if you can prevent it) come end game. If Slowbro is that much of a threat, shouldn't the sacrifice be worth it anyway? If you're running both Chansey and Starmie, you go with Chansey (it gets para'd sometime during thegame anyway) as opposed to both of them being paralyzed. Or use some other guy and suicide. At that point (how often does Slowbro come and boost during early game when everything's still alive unless you're playing bad), you're not losing much when suiciding.

 

[Isa]

are you arguing that paralysis on one mon is a worse deal than always sacrificing at least one mon in order to kill slowbro

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

How's that unreasonable when talking about Starmie? To me, keeping the 110+ Speeds is one of the most important things you can do to increase your chances at winning (because those few final turns are the most crucial). Anything slower than that, go ahead, use against Slowbro to counter, but I've never used Starmie to do it (and dealt with it just fine).

 

[Isa]

so why are you content with having slowbro outside of s rank if slowbro is so good that it is reasonable to always expect to go 1 for 1 or worse vs. it

 

[Lusch]

Aerodactyl Legend, Slowbro is a big threat, and if you ever managed to beat it without sacrificing a mon due to explosion or letting your starmie get paralyzed, please tell me how but usually letting your Starmie ( not chansey, cause Chansey just doesnt get the crits it needs most of the time) get paralyzed is the best trade you can get. It is a better trade than exploding with egg or lax...

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

I never said anything about it's rank, lol. This is all coming off the Lapras thing if anyone forgot.

Aerodactyl Legend, Slowbro is a big threat, and if you ever managed to beat it without sacrificing a mon due to explosion or letting your starmie get paralyzed, please tell me how but usually letting your Starmie ( not chansey, cause Chansey just doesnt get the crits it needs most of the time) get paralyzed is the best trade you can get. It is a better trade than exploding with egg or lax...

I also never said anything about never suiciding with someone myself. I do that all the time (or just wear it down for something else to finish it). I just don't let my fast guys take unecessary paralysis to take it out.

 

[Lusch]

Oh Okay, so i interpret what you are saying the way that u would rather sacrifice a mon exploding (LAx, Egg) instead of taking para with Starmie?
I mean i respect that and all its a question of playstyle and preference, but too me taking para with Mie is a better trade than dying wth Lax....

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

I don't see how booming is bad in this situation. Removing a threat (while being a threat to watch out for as well) is what Explosion is for.

This actually has piqued my interest. I wonder who else uses Starmie as their Slowbro counter as opposed to something slower. I would never do that.

Regardless, OK, you use Starmie against Slowbro as it has the qualities to do so. How's that help on proving it's more viable than Lapras?

 

[Isa]

it's not, but your claim that starmie's speed is more valuable than the life of an exploding pokemon was so...interesting, that i had to question you about it

 

[Karxrida]

Starmie's actually Base 115, and I would assume that speed tier would be useful to help stop a Tauros sweep.

 

[Isa]

of course that's part of why the speed is useful, but snorlax/exeggutor/what have you are also exemplary at stopping tauros, whereas starmie entering on tauros bslam is risky if dodging paralysis is the aim

 

[Ortheore]

If I'm running Tbolt Starmie I am absolutely using it as a Bro counter. Doesn't mean I'm ok with letting it take para but it's better than getting swept, not to mention that you can always try some chain-switching shenanigans to avoid bringing it in on a Twave, at which point it is usually enough to force Bro out anyway, or maybe it stays in to Twave and then gets out of there. Preserving its speed is nice and all but at some point you've actually got to make use of it, otherwise what's the point of having this tool in your arsenal?

On that note explosion is a useful tool but I'd never rely on it as a primary method of dealing with a given threat, it's way too inconsistent. Especially against a Slowbro since it's known as possibly the biggest explosion magnet in the game. For every time you take down Bro with Lax's boom or w/e there'll be another where the opponent fodders something off to it instead, and then you've wasted your Lax (or whatever you choose as an example). Not to mention that forgoing that pokemon's life is really costly- if you're booming with something like Lax that's a pretty poor trade. There's plenty of situations where booming to take down Bro is necessary but choosing to do it when you have a perfectly good counter available doesn't make any sense to me, especially if you're sacrificing Lax or Egg, which are enormously valuable otherwise.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Confirming moltres is viable and that twave bro is a good partner for it. With a bit of team support (paralyze starmie/chansey/zam, weaken stuff a bit) it's capable of getting clean sweeps. Team weakening is appreciated to minimize the amount of necessary fire spin. Golem is a bad answer since its 3HKOd by fire blast. D or low C seems fine for it

 

[Ortheore]

wow I didn't realise moltres was down in E lol. Definitely D rank, I can't see it in C because I don't believe it's better than Kingler. That said, something doesn't seem right with D rank- Khan, Moltres and Kingler are considerably better than anything else in that rank

 

[Kingler]

D-rank seems a little weird to me cus there are some mons there that you really never wanna use but some (Tangela on wrap teams alongside Victreebel, Moltres yeah, KINGLER which is actually rly threatening) are actually good and pretty threatening in their own right; they also have a solid niche and are usable on serious teams unlike stuff like aero lol. I'd say both are good in C. Haven't used or faced Kangaskhan enough to speculate its position, but anything that you'd use seriously honestly belongs above D at least lol.

 

[Jellicent]

Zam and Starm are a cut above Lapras, and I'd add an A+ just for them. Jynx can bump up to A at that point. It's a fantastic lead, which allows it to fit on a lot more teams than the rest of B.

I think Jolteon could move up to B. Pure Electric typing (no weakness to Ice and resists Electric, meaning it has a better time against Waters and walls Zapdos), naturally outspeeding everything, and great crit rate balance out its overall worse bulk and slightly worse offenses compared to Zap. It's a good lead and a great cleaner; you just can't rely on its defenses the way you can Zap.

Cloyster and Dragonite could potentially make the climb to B as well. Cloy's got great physical bulk, STAB Blizzard, and Explosion going for it, while Dragonite is surprisingly handy at wearing things down and only needs one turn to start busting things up (you don't need a dedicated Wrap team to pull shenanigans with either of them.)

Body Slam nerf really hurt Rhydon, since it can't just come in on Tauros's Hyper Beam and fish for a para anymore. Golem has a similar problem, but the ability to Explode makes is much better overall, despite being a bit weaker and frailer. I'd say Rhydon is usually outclassed and better suited to C.

Kangaskhan's a lot better thanks to not getting paralyzed by BSlam and improved Counter mechanics. I'd bump it up to C.

I agree that Moltres should be good for D.