OU RBY OU Viability Ranking (2013 to 2016)

[Lusch]

Agree with most of that things you say, Jellicent, but Rhydon to C I disagree, it still has the amazing power, 3HKOing Slowbro most of the time and Snorlax, which other physical attackers such as Golem and Snorlax can't, both of which aprreciate parasupport just as much..
If you want to move up half of C Rank, bumping Kangaskhan to C is justifiable, although I'm not sure about Cloyster, think C is fine for it, but idk.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

While I do think that Golem is definitely the better of the two, both use Body Slam similarly and I don't think that Rhydon has dropped enough to be lowered a rank. Body Slam after switching into Hyper Beam is never something you want to bank on because of the meager damage (just above 21% minimum) vs Earthquake able to do about 75% in two hits (allowing Starmie or your own Tauros to finish it off). Body Slam is best used on switch ins so you can possibly catch their EQ resist with paralysis. Otherwise, you'd be better off doing as much damage as possible.

Should there be a way to seperate the two in the rankings?

 

[Mr.E]

So yeah, I think Bro's fine where it is. Lapras is interesting tho, because WCoP stats show it has a fairly abysmal win rate. I posted about this over on pokemon perfect but I think it's worth asking here- is there anything to this low win rate or is it just an anomaly?

Well, I think it's just worse than Starmie overall and no sane team would run both. Lapras used to have an advantage in that it didn't get dumped by Chansey but with our realization that hey, Body Slam can't actually PAR Chansey after all, you have to pre-paralyze it for Lapras to be of any use anyway which really limits its potential. You can also use Sing, but then you're using Sing.

Now all it really has is Ice typing, so it can't be frozen and gets STAB on Blizzard, but that doesn't make up for all what Starmie has: Psychic resistance, T-Wave, Recover, the Speed to outpace Tauros and actually crit Slowbro in a reasonable timeframe. I feel like Lapras is one of those "good enough" mons that is mostly just outclassed by a comtemporary, kinda like how many players feel about whichever mon they think is lesser between Golem and Rhydon. (btw Rhydon >>> Golem get at me scrubs)

Slowbro is not really similar to it despite the stats, Amnesia makes it a totally different beast. And uhh yeah Starmie is fucking numero uno Slowbro counter... Honestly the only mon you "need" to protect from paralysis is Tauros because all the Psychics are forced to switch in and spam T-Wave on each other anyway because everything else gets mauled by Psychic (the move). Tauros can actually kill everything instead of hitting resistances.

There is way too much discussion that went on in this thread the past few days for me to process everything else and respond meaningfully to it.

 

[Yogi Bear.]

So I'm making a competitive team for the 3DS RBY re-release and while building the team, I decided I wanted to use Venusaur because it's one of my favorite Pokemon.

But upon some further research, I've come to a bit of an unfortunate conclusion. In Gen 1, Victreebel is an immediate and necessary competitor for the exact same role and targets.

The optimized moveset for BOTH of them is
Sleep Powder
Razor Leaf
Swords Dance
Body Slam

They share a typing, and have the same HP and Special. The only differences are that Venusaur has a higher Defense and Speed while Victreebel has a higher Attack.

So, the important thing about examining this trade-off is to look at:

• What Pokemon does Venusaur outspeeds that Victreebel does not?
• What attacks does Venusaur tank that Victreebel does not?
• What KOs does Victreebel get that Venusaur does not?

The first one is the easiest and is something I can do myself without any real debate.
Here are all of the Pokemon in the game that Venusaur out-speeds that Victreebel doesn't:

• Blastoise
• Hitmonchan
• Nidoqueen
• Kingler
• Doduo
• Beedrill
• Rattata
• Pidgeotto
• Dragonair
• Onix
• Cloyster
• Dewgong
• Magneton
• Tentacool

Let's shrink this list just down to fully evolved Pokemon:

• Blastoise
• Hitmonchan
• Nidoqueen
• Kingler
• Beedrill
• Onix
• Cloyster
• Dewgong
• Magneton

Let's shrink this list down to Pokemon listed as OU:

• Cloyster

That's it. Cloyster is the only Pokemon in OU that Venusaur outspeeds that Victreebel does not. Is that notable? I don't think so, no.

So my question is, what notable KOes does Venusaur miss after SD that Victreebel does get; and what Physical Attacks can Venusaur tank that Victreebel can't?

 

[Isa]

well youre missing out on the fact that victreebel runs wrap more often than the sweeper moveset and gets the option of stun spore, and that's more or less flat out better

there's little reason to run venusaur, tanking tauros blizzard + hbeam 100% of the time and outspeeding cloy rather than speed tying it is the main reason to run venusaur if you would go for it though

 

[Ortheore]

Isa hit the nail on the head, but just for shits and giggles I went ahead and looked at every notable xHKO that Venu fails to land compared to Bel with Body Slam.

Hide

+2 BSlam
Venu misses out on:
3HKO vs Articuno
2HKO vs Chansey
(usually) the 3HKO vs Dragonite (1% vs 100%)
(usually) the 3HKO vs Exeggutor (41% vs 100%)
(usually) the 2HKO vs Jolteon (21% vs 100%)
(usually) the 3HKO vs Moltres (37% vs 100%)
(usually) the 2HKO vs Persian (36% vs 100%, also apparently Venu does more with RL than with +2 BS in this case. The same is not true for Bel)
(usually) the 3HKO vs Snorlax (1% vs 83% also same deal with RL and Slam)
Potential 2HKO vs Victreebel (0% vs 36%)
(sometimes) the 3HKO vs Zapdos (75% vs 100%)

The funny thing is that it occurred to me when contemplating doing the same for HBeam that this isn't all that useful since if you're looking to clean up late game all these pokemon should have chip damage on them, in which case the damage range is more useful, but oh well. I actually tried c/ping the output from honkalculator here, but it wouldn't format nicely so w/e

 

[Lusch]

Rhydon Earthquake can 2HKO Victreebel but never 2HKO's Venusaur: (not really important but if u search for something...)
Rhydon Earthquake vs. Victreebel: 169-199 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- 64.6% chance to 2HKO
Rhydon Earthquake vs. Venusaur: 146-172 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Rhydon Earthquake vs. Victreebel on a critical hit: 329-387 (90.6 - 106.6%) -- 41% chance to OHKO

WIth Venu u survive Snorlaxes BodySlam+Hyper Beam combo, with Victreebel u usually don't:
Snorlax Body Slam vs. Victreebel: 127-150 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Snorlax Hyper Beam vs. Victreebel: 224-264 (61.7 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Snorlax Body Slam vs. Venusaur: 110-130 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- 37.9% chance to 3HKO
Snorlax Hyper Beam vs. Venusaur: 194-228 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also Venu autspeeds Kingler wich is not all that unimportant when u compare the two
Still Victreebel is almost always better...

 

[Kutscher]

hi i am new in this metagame, there is a thread that can introduce me to the current meta or something that explain what is viable and why, like i read a lot of analysis on smogon and i
thought almost everything was viable cause there are a lot of OU analysis, and why there is no fire type mon viable in a meta with a grass in s rank? tnks

 

[Bedschibaer]

http://www.smogon.com/rb/articles/rby_battling
This is a good article on rby battling. The thing is that lower tiers weren't really played in rby so everything got an ou analysis back in the day because tiers lower than that were so unpopular and nowadays are almost nonexistent. On the fire type question, there might be a grass type in the s rank, but that is really the only thing that fire types in this gen can capitalize on, while being permanently blocked by a Starmie for example and having a really hard time getting past Chansey. Golem, Rhydon, Snorlax and Zam beating pretty much every fire type (apart from moltres maybe) 1 on 1 doesn't really help that problem either. Potentially burning a special attacker is probably one of the worst things that can happen to you, because then you have no way to neuter it with status. On a more case to case basis: most of the fire types have rather mediocre stats, bad movepools and crippling weaknesses and just don't really have good places in the metagame.

 

[Yogi Bear.]

well youre missing out on the fact that victreebel runs wrap more often than the sweeper moveset and gets the option of stun spore, and that's more or less flat out better

there's little reason to run venusaur, tanking tauros blizzard + hbeam 100% of the time and outspeeding cloy rather than speed tying it is the main reason to run venusaur if you would go for it though

Victreebel's sweeper set is listed above the ParaWrap set; and I figured it was more important to compare the SD set since it's the only one listed for Venu.

Isa hit the nail on the head, but just for shits and giggles I went ahead and looked at every notable xHKO that Venu fails to land compared to Bel with Body Slam.

Hide

+2 BSlam
Venu misses out on:
3HKO vs Articuno
2HKO vs Chansey
(usually) the 3HKO vs Dragonite (1% vs 100%)
(usually) the 3HKO vs Exeggutor (41% vs 100%)
(usually) the 2HKO vs Jolteon (21% vs 100%)
(usually) the 3HKO vs Moltres (37% vs 100%)
(usually) the 2HKO vs Persian (36% vs 100%, also apparently Venu does more with RL than with +2 BS in this case. The same is not true for Bel)
(usually) the 3HKO vs Snorlax (1% vs 83% also same deal with RL and Slam)
Potential 2HKO vs Victreebel (0% vs 36%)
(sometimes) the 3HKO vs Zapdos (75% vs 100%)

The funny thing is that it occurred to me when contemplating doing the same for HBeam that this isn't all that useful since if you're looking to clean up late game all these pokemon should have chip damage on them, in which case the damage range is more useful, but oh well. I actually tried c/ping the output from honkalculator here, but it wouldn't format nicely so w/e

Why are you not switching on the bolded match-ups for either Venusaur or Victreebel? All of them know super-effective moves that will probably 2HKO at best (Jolteon being the only one w/o STAB) and all of them except Eggy are faster than you. I'm not used to the RBY meta just yet but I find it hard to imagine Victreebel having the time to reliably get these 2HKO and 3HKOs. Are we assuming the target is already paralyzed and you're hitting them on the switch?

 

[Ortheore]

you're right you're gonna be switching in those matchups. It was definitely silly of me to be posting that stuff when it's not really a realistic scenario but idk I found it interesting

 

[Kutscher]

I made my first team and i had a lot or fun and hax in my matches, my team is alakazam,slowbro,venusaur,dragonite,golem and persian. I would like to know if it is ok, or if i should switch something

 

[Bughouse]

In general, any team without Chansey, Snorlax, Tauros, and Exeggutor would benefit by having most, if not all of them. RBY is a quite centralized meta and trying to make a team without any of the big 4 just isn't likely to be successful. Of course any team with Dragonite /can/ win if it Wraps enough things to death and gets paralysis support, but there are better teams to do so than what you have there.

 

[Mr.E]

Snorlax is super duper overrated and all that makes it particularly good is that Selfdestruct makes it very likely to at least trade 1-for-1. But it's nice if you like paralyzing Chansey, since Golem/Rhydon take half from Ice Beam and you don't want your fast Normalmons (like Tauros) paralyzed by TWave.

 

[Bughouse]

Snorlax is super duper overrated and all that makes it particularly good is that Selfdestruct makes it very likely to at least trade 1-for-1. But it's nice if you like paralyzing Chansey, since Golem/Rhydon take half from Ice Beam and you don't want your fast Normalmons (like Tauros) paralyzed by TWave.

Snorlax isn't paralyzing Chansey

 

[Zokuru]

>Snorlax paralyzing Chansey

Explanation : Chansey can't be paralyze by Body Slam due to its Normal type

 

[Lusch]

>Snorlax paralyzing Chansey

I think he means, Snorlax is nice if you like paralyzing Chansey (before fighting it with Lax) instead of say going for the freeze on it

 

[Mr.E]

Nowhere did I imply that Snorlax itself is doing the paralyzing. In fact, it's the main reason Snorlax has become heavily overrated because Snorlax used to just outright beat Chansey which was its primary use. Ice Beam forces hesitation from Goldon and other physical attackers, e.g. Tauros or Persian, don't like eating TWave. Thought it was overrated before, since it's not like Chansey is so godlike that you are obligated to use it nor obligated to use its best counter, but it's even worse now that Snorlax doesn't even 1v1 Chansey on its own. Snorlax gets outsped and 3HKOed by almost everything except Chansey and most Starmie (Hydro Pump does 3HKO), so it's not really super attractive on its own merits. It mostly just looks to get an even trade by blowing something up. If that's all you want, at least Cloyster soft counters Tauros and Clamp scares slower shit.

I was never one for Chansey freeze wars. Personally, I think more highly of myself than forcing a 50/50 when I can outplay my opponents into better odds. Nonetheless, it's not that hard to find Chansey running itself into Thunder Waves aimed at... literally anything else. Snorlax is still nice to have around in that case, and it means you don't have to temper your TWave usage in fear of paralyzing a Chansey you were banking on trying to freeze.

 

[Lusch]

I get what you say but Snorlax does not get 3HKOed by almost anything (without a crit/spc drop at least). Golem does not 3HKO with EQ (Rhydon does though), Tauros Bodyslam, Bodyslam, Hyper Beam does not kill. Zapdos Thunderbolt fails to 3HKO most of the time (18.6% chance without a crit), Exeggutor never 3HKOs with Psychic whereas Alakazam only has a ~30% chance (I know in practice they are likely to score a spc drop/crit but without it those are the numbers), Slowbro has a 16% chance to 2HKO at +2, which means usually not a 3HKO, to name some examples...
The only mons that I can think of right now in OU that 3HKO are Rhydon and Lapras, (Articuno, Moltres), there might be more though...

 

[Mr.E]

Well crit rates and special drops are eminently calculable. Alakazam has a ~55.1% chance to crit at least one of three Psychics, or ~55.4% chance to Special drop on the first two Psychics, to say nothing of naturally damage rolling the 3HKO. Sooooo Zam actually has about an 85% chance to 3HKO Snorlax, and a low but reasonable 13% chance to 2HKO. (Nevermind the possibility of Reflect!) Tauros is also quite likely to crit and you can't paralyze it anyway, hell even Starmie and that's one of Snorlax's best matchups. Zapdos yes, Jolteon absolutely, Eggy not so much but special drops, Slowbro doesn't give a shit about Snorlax anyway... okay you beat Gengar and you can technically OHKO Jynx with Hyper Beam.

Even if it was 4HKOed by everything, Snorlax is still outsped by everything so you still can't switch it into much and 3HKO first. It still mostly just blows up on something, which is okay I guess but not like "top tier uber god of RBY." I maintain Zam is better, if nothing else.

 

[Earthworm]

Snorlax's utility is still higher than almost everything else because it can switch into anything and probably trade even, as well as being very difficult to switch into safely. It is one of the best Pokemon to send in on a Pokemon that just took sleep due to the combination of "nothing likes to switch into the threat of Body Slam + Earthquake" and "does not get scared out easily". Even if they go to Starmie and don't get paralysed by Body Slam, or if they go to their Chansey or Snorlax, there are many low-risk options available: it is still fine to use Body Slam again, use Hyper Beam, or switch depending on the situation (although I guess if they went to unparalysed Chansey on unparalysed Snorlax you should be wary). Whereas if you had gone to Tauros on the sleeping Pokemon, while your chances of getting a CH+Paralysis and doing some serious damage are pretty decent, if it doesn't happen you are probably forced to switch, making you more predictable and thus more susceptible to getting outplayed.

 

[Ortheore]

I feel like picking on Lax's defensive utility is a slight red herring, given that it's such an offensively minded pokemon. It's true that its bulk allows it to trade with virtually anything at the least, it can check weak special attackers while powerful ones tend to make it uncomfortable. These are all significant points, but the primary reason you use it is because there is nothing better at breaking holes in an opposing team, and as Earthworm suggested it's a low risk high reward option for punishing an opponent for playing passively. It's generally a wallbreaker first, a do-it-all glue mon second. That's not to say the latter point is insignificant, it's very important and I've put together teams that lean heavily on that trait in the past, but it's still not the primary thing that Lax does.

So yeah, in my mind Lax is easily the 2nd best mon in rby ou

 

[Yogi Bear.]

you're right you're gonna be switching in those matchups. It was definitely silly of me to be posting that stuff when it's not really a realistic scenario but idk I found it interesting

Following that logic, the main issues are missing:
2HKO Vs. Chansey
(usually) the 3HKO Vs. Dragonite
(usually) the 2HKO Vs. Persian
(usually) the 3HKO Vs. Snorlax
Potential 2HKO Vs. Victreebel

The underlined two are the most significant because of how omnipresent they are.

The match-up with Victreebel is a bit of a coin toss. Venusaur is going to outspeed Bel (barring paralysis) meaning that your own BS can turn the tide if it stuns Bel; but a crit, parahax, or a pre-existing SD are on paper the more important factors.

The issue with the D-Nite match-up, is that Venusaur can speed tie Dragonite BEFORE it uses Agility. Considering that Dragonite can run Blizzard, I'm not sure Saur or Bel want to stay in unless they already have a couple SD's, and in that case the difference between their power is less relevant.