SM OU Reborn Shedinja Stall (Peaked #1, #2 and #3)

[Archer Kirby]

Introduction

A while back, I made a team in may which featured Shedinja and was extremely successful on ladder. As the meta changed and new threats rose the team didn't work quite as well as it used to, so I decided to make a new team. Shedinja is a pokemon that doesn't just require team support, it needs the entire team to be built around it in order to work as best as possible. So all team members and their sets were made to help Shedinja fulfil its niche of walling a collection of threats such as Manaphy and Medicham-Mega throughout the game with no worries about recovery. There are a few threats that this team struggles to deal with, but I will get into that later below. Word of warning, my sets aren't what you would usually expect to see (I will explain them), so just keep that in mind.

Results

For those of you who are unsure about this team, like its predecessor, this team proved to very good on the ladder. Once again I managed to peak #1 by a far margin this time, with my alts being #2 and #3 which you can see from the image below.

The Team

I'll be talking about the team a bit differently than last time. Instead of talking about all the pokemon and then the threats to the team, I'll cover the pokemon, the way they prevent hazards for the team and then the threats to the team as a whole.

Shedinja

Shedinja @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 Def
- Protect
- Secret Power
- Shadow Sneak
- Will-O-Wisp

The Pokemon: Once again being the star of my most successful team, Shedinja was the pokemon i wanted to build around. Wonder Guard is an amazing ability as it prevents damage from attacking moves unless super effective, allowing it to wall threats like Zygarde, Manaphy, offensive Magearna sets, Tapu Koko and more without taking damage. The fact that Shedinja doesn't take any damage is great as it means it will always be able to wall those threats at any point in the game (Assuming that hazards aren't up). The ability to block both Volt Switch and U-turn is great as it means my other pokemon aren't worn down and the opponent can't freely pivot against my team.

The Item: Safety Goggles was my item of choice, as it allows Shedinja to not be deadweight against any team that runs Hippowdon, Tyranitar or Ninetales-Alola, as the the mere presence of those would make it so Shedinja is unable to switch in without dying. This does make it so I have to properly scout the opponent's moves as one wrong switch and Shedinja would be gone for the remainer of the game.

The Spread: Due to the feedback of my last RMT, I changed Shedinja from jolly to hasty with 0IVs as this gives a high chance of OHKOing Ditto with Shadow Sneak as if it transformed into it, while still letting me be fast enough to Outspeed Mega Mawile and burn it with max speed Evs. the rest of the Evs went into attack to deal as much damage as possible and also due to the fact that Shedinja doesn't really need Evs anywhere else due to Wonder Guard.

The Moves: Protect was my first choice as I needed to scout moves with Shedinja to see if they were running a move that could hit it, and to also see what pokemon were choice locked into, to see if that would give Shedinja a free turn to attack. Secret Power is a move that is non-contact, meaning that Shedinja won't die if it hits a Rocky Helmet on pokemon like Zapdos and Tangrowth. The 30% chance to paralyze is very nice, and the other effects in Terrains such as Grassy are also good. Shadow Sneak was important to deal alot of damage to pokemon such as Blacephalon and Alakazam once they had a small amount of prior damage. The good amount of pp that Shadow Sneak has also allows Shedinja to out PP stall threats like Sub Glare Zygarde should my Unaware user be already out of the game. Will-O-Wisp is to cripple physical threats like Mega Mawile, allowing my other pokemon to deal with it or to put pokemon like AV Magearna on a timer.

Chansey

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Light Screen
- Heal Bell

The Pokemon: My Immortal Queen of my stall teams, Chansey deals with so many special attackers that there isn't much of a reason to not have her. In addition to her amazing bulk, she gets access to support moves that my team needs in the long run (Trust me, I'll cover Light Screen soon).

The Item: As we all know, Eviolite is a staple item for Chansey, and increases her already great bulk to even higher heigths, allowing her to take on more threats then her sister Blissey.

The Spread: Chansey has amazing HP and Special Defence naturally, so I choose to invest in HP and Physical Defence to allow chansey to avoid 2HKOs from pokemon like Lando-T. Investing in Physical Defence was especially important this time around due to some special attackers that love to attack with moves such as Psyshock.

The Moves: Usually I'll go down the moves in order, but lets just get Light Screen out of the way first. Light Screen Chansey. Yes I use Light Screen Chansey on this team. I can already hear shouts of confusion and anger of using Light Screen when better support moves like Stealth Rocks, Toxic, Wish and even Counter exist, so why do I use Light Screen Chansey? For two main reasons. The first of which is Specs Timid Tapu-Lele doesn't force out Chansey in Terrain at full HP if I use Light Screen. Even though Psyshock does damage on the physical side, it is still counted as a special move, meaning that the damage is cut in half. Please look at the two calcs below.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 390-460 (55.4 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain through Light Screen: 195-230 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Even if Tapu-Lele had both max rolls, it would not be able to KO Chansey. While I do have Shedinja to switch in Tapu-Lele, I don't want to risk HP Fire at some points, so with Chansey in addition to Sableye-Mega and Shedinja, Specs Tapu-Lele was never much of an issue for this team. The second reason is that Light Screen is just the move that supports my team the most. Stealth Rocks just gives the opponent a chance to set their own hazards and that just means Shedinja can't switch in at all until they are removed, four other members of my team already run status moves, and moves like Counter and Wish just didn't seem to fit the team in this case. Light Screen allows my team to deal with special attackers much more easily, and is great in the event that hazards do go up. Lets look at this example, If Specs Greninja (Not Greninja-Ash) comes in and Sableye is weakened enough I don't want to risk it dying and I switch to Chansey and it does Spikes, I can then set up light screen as they switch out. So if Greninja came back in after on Zapdos, I would be able to live 2 Specs Hydro Pumps after SR, meaning I could live the first hit and Defog, and Roost after the second Hydro Pump, you can see the calc of this below.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos through Light Screen: 125-147 (32.6 - 38.3%) -- 4.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So thats enough about Light Screen, sorry for it being so long, but I felt I needed to get the point across that Light Screen does actually work great on Chansey as support for the team. Seismic Toss does consisent damage which is great as Chansey has bad attacking stats. Soft-Boiled is for reliable recovery and while some people may raise questions about pairing Heal Bell with Gliscor, as long as you are careful with Knock Off, then it should be fine, But Heal Bell is important for if other members of the team get statused.

Zapdos

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Heat Wave
- Roost
- Defog

The Pokemon: Zapdos is the first out of my two defoggers and its typing to deal with pokemon such as Hawlucha and Kartana in addition to use its ability Pressure to deal with Rockers like Clefable and Defensive Lando-T was the reason why it was picked for this team.

The Item: Leftovers was picked to give Zapdos passive recovery over turns, saving Roost PP. It also helps with roost stalling Hoopa-Us Banded Hyperspace Fury and makes it hard for Serperior to spam Leaf Storm as Leftovers help Zapdos get out of range of repeated hits while making Seperior waste 2 Leaf Storms each hit due to Pressure.

The Spread: Zapdos is max HP and max Physical Defence in order to tank hits from Z-Kartana, Hawlucha and Pinsir-Mega at +2, and other phyiscal threats such as Tapu-Bulu and Gyarados.

The Moves: Discharge is the STAB move, hitting for decent power with a good chance to paralyze pokemon which makes threats like Tapu-Lele think twice about coming in. Paralyze chance aside, Discharge is used for hitting setup users like Pinsir-Mega and Hawlucha after they setup on the switch. Heatwave is used to deal with Kartana, Tapu-Bulu and also a weakened Mawile-Mega. Roost is so that Zapdos can stay healthy and Defog is to remove hazards for Shedinja.

Hazard Setters That Zapdos can deal with:

If Clefable isn't Calm Mind, and Chansey, Gliscor and Toxapex don't carry Toxic or Zapdos has already been statused, then Zapdos is able to come in freely and pressure stall their hazards with Pressure and Defog. Zapdos can also come in on the Defensive Lando-T set, but must be careful about switching into others due to Z-Stone Edge or Explosion. Ferrothorn isn't able to deal much damage to Zapdos, and while it can be annoying with Leech Seed or the rarer Knock Off, Zapdos is still able to Defog the hazards and force Ferrothorn out with Heatwave.

Gliscor

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Roost
- Defog

The Pokemon: Since Mold Breaker Excadrill was a huge problem for my last Shedinja Team, I wanted to make sure that I could deal it in this recent team. Gliscor easily deals Excadrill in addition to other Stealth Rock pokemon that Zapdos couldn't deal with. Having an immunity to status was nice so Gliscor was the second defogger chosen for my team.

The Item: Toxic Orb with Poison Heal is pretty obvious, this allows Gliscor to get back more HP then with using Leftovers in addition to being immune to status.

The Spread: Max Physical Defence was needed in order to live Stone Edge crits from Band Tyranitar, and to take hits from Charizard-Mega-X and Victini and hit them hard with Earthquake or cripple with Toxic. It also allowed Gliscor to have a chance of not being 2HKO'd by Band Hyperspace Fury and allowed it to take on the more offensive sets of Lando-T to cripple them.

The Moves: Earthquake is my STAB choice, able to hit Fire Types such as Heatran and Victini for super effective damage as well as other common threats like Magearna and Tapu Koko. Toxic allows me to put threats on a timer if the usual member of the team can't deal with it, or to just wear down threats in general. It also prevents pokemon like Lando-T from coming in for free against Gliscor since it is immune to its only attacking move. Roost is because relying on Poison Heal for healing isn't enough in some cases and Defog is to remove hazards for Shedinja and the rest of my team.

Hazard Setters that Gliscor can deal with:

Excadrill and Hippowdon can do no damage to Gliscor normally, and Gliscor can just use Earthquake or Toxic Respectively. If Heatran is a defensive set or not running Spa investment, then Gliscor is able to switch in and Defog the rocks away, forcing heatran out because of the threat of Earthquake. Since Chansey is unable to status Gliscor, Gliscor can just Defog away the rocks while forcing chansey out with Toxic. Depending on the Lando-T Set, it may be tricky due to Hidden Power Ice, but Gliscor is still able to outspeed those and roost off the damage, so if Lando-T has been statused prior, then Gliscor is still able to deal with it.

Sableye-Mega

Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Foul Play
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp

The Pokemon: While having Double Defog was nice, it wasn't enough for teams that liked to stack hazards, so Sableye-Mega was added to allow it bounce back hazards from pokemon such as Chansey and Ferrothorn, creating my own hazards and making it easier to use Shedinja during matches. Sableye was also a much needed Special Defence wall as both Zapdos and Gliscor was Physical Defence.

The Spread: Following on from that, Sableye-Mega was the secondary Special Defence to deal with the pokemon that could set hazards such as Heatrana and Greninja, that Zapdos and Gliscor couldn't handle. I was max Special Defense to take the least damage possible as Specs Hydro Pump and Offensive Heatran deal alot of damage and I didn't want to risk being forced out and allowing them to set up hazards.

The Moves: Protect is helpful for not just scouting the opponents moves, but being able to Mega-Evolve turn 1 vs threats like Tapu-Lele. Knock Off vs Foul Play was a hard choice, but I chose Foul Play just before it supports Shedinja better by dealing with Setup Pokemon more easily. Examples of this are Suicide Lando-T, as I can burn it as it does one SD, negating the boost, and as it does another to negate the burn, Foul Play will OHKO preventing Lando-T from getting up rocks. The same applies to similar pokemon like Garchomp. Foul Play is also useful in the fact that it OHKOs Z-Blacephalon which Knock Off doesn't do. Recover is to keep Sableye-Mega healthy throughout the game, and Will-O-Wisp as mentioned before, is to help with Foul Play prevent pokemon from getting rocks up and cripples physical attackers.

Hazard setters that Sableye-Mega can deal with:

Defensive Heatran is not able to 2HKO Sableye-Mega with Magma Storm, so Sableye-Mega can stall out the Magma Storm with Recover and chip away with Foul Play. Greninja is not able to 2HKO with anything outright, but it can put Sableye-Mega in difficult situations as Sableye-Mega can't afford to recover after every hit, but not doing so can put it risk of being in range for the next switchin. It is still a solid answer and can most of the time can prevent hazards from Greninja. Ferrothorn doesn't do enough damage with Power Whip and is forced out with fear of burn as that would negate Ferrothorn's only recovery option vs Sableye-Mega and make it easier to switch into. Chansey can't touch Sableye-Mega at all with its standard moves allowing Sableye to easily switch in and bounce back Stealth Rock.

Pyukumuku

Pyukumuku @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Def / 244 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Block
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Recover

The Pokemon: Fire types were an issue for the team and it also lacked an Unaware user, so Pyukumuku was the pokemon chosen for the job. The reason why I chose not to use Quagsire was due to the different movepools and that Pyukumuku had moves to support Shedinja by dealing with pokemon that liked to setup Hazards such as Clefable so it was chosen as the last member of this team.

The Item: Leftovers was chosen to give Pyukumuku passive recovery while also helping it take hits better due to some of the Evs being invested into speed.

The Spread: On the subject of the EV spread, investing in a stat that is Base 5 may sound like a joke, but it was crucial to this teams success. Toxapex was an annoying pokemon for this team, it could Toxic Zapdos, Burn Sableye-Mega with Scald or just waste Roost PP on Gliscor with Scald while setting Toxic Spikes. Toxapex also loved to come in when I used Block, knowning full well that if i trapped it, then I would be Toxic'd and be able to deal with a setup pokemon after dealing with Toxapex. So this spread was made to, believe it or not, speed creep Toxapex. The reason for this is down to the moves that we will cover later, and the rest of the Evs is to take Pyukumuku as bulky as possible to avoid 2HKOs from other Stealth Rock pokemon like Swampert-Mega that other members on my team couldn't prevent rocks from.

The Moves: Pyukumuku runs a trapping set, but this trapping set is a bit different from other sets. The goal of this set is to trap pokemon such as Clefable and Toxapex and then Taunt them so they can only use attacking moves, if they set up hazards at another point while trapped then thats fine due to the nature of the set. Once the opponent runs out of attacking moves such as Moonblast or Scald, they will begin to struggle. This is when I will switch to one of my Defog users as I can then defog away the hazards with the opponent either staying in with struggle or switching out. The good thing about this set is now not only is Pyukumuku still relatively healthy for any setup users, but my Zapdos or Gliscor can't be damaged by the pokemon trapped anymore and can Defog for free while being healed by their passive recovery. In addition I can just go Sableye-Mega as since they have no pp for attacking moves, there is nothing they can do to Sableye-Mega. While I could just run another trapping set to actually KO the pokemon instead of letting them switch out, the issue with that was hazards would still be up and the opponent would do everything in their power to keep them up making the battle much more difficult. Taunt is also great for forcing pokemon like Zygarde who would have more pp then Pyukmuku to spam Thousand Arrows as it gets through Substitute. I was also getting tired of how common Manaphy was getting as it easily deals with all other Unaware users and didn't feel comfortable of relying just on Shedinja in case hazards did go up, which when paired with Swampert-Mega was a possibility.

Hazard Setters that Pyukumuku can deal with:

Clefable and Toxapex have already been covered, so moving onto Ferrothorn, if it lacks Power Whip, then it will also follow the same fate. Depending on what the Greninja set is, Pyukumuku is also able to trap and Toxic stall. Swampert-Mega is unable to 2HKO Pyukumuku with Earthquake despite having only a few Evs in Physical Defence, so Pyuku is able to Toxic stall with Recover.

Threat List and Rankings
If you are still here after all this, then congrats, this is almost the end. Now time to briefly cover the threats to this team.

S Tier Threats (Aka I don't have an answer to these pokemon at all on my team so a loss is highly likely)

If Hoopa-Unbound is either Choice Specs or Nasty Plot, I don't really have many options then to either hope Discharge parayzed, Light Screen was already up, I managed to toxic it before hand or they Nasty Plot on Sableye as I Foul Play. But like with most stalls, you will lose to this monster on the rare chance you encounter it. Heracross is a pokemon that I would have to Toxic with Gliscor and hope its not Sub, and then try and play around it with Shedinja, Sableye, Pyukumuku and Protects. But most of the time you will lose one mon if not more, and should it be Sub, with SD and Rock Blast, then I don't have any options for it on this team.

A Tier Threats (Aka I have an answer but I can lose a pokemon in the process)

If Kyurem-Black is Z, then I would have to hope and make it so it wastes its Zmove on Pyukumuku, which is the only way I can escape the situation with no losses. But nothing else on my team will handle Z-Freeze Shock apart from Pyukumuku which due to less Physical Defence, will be 2HKO'd by Fusion Bolt.

B Tier Threats (Aka I can deal with the pokemon, but I have to play around it)

Tapu-Lele is an odd one. While I don't have anything concrete to deal with Specs should it be Hidden Power Fire, It has never been an big problem due to the team. Tapu-Lele can't do anything when screens are up and even if they aren't, have to guess correctly between Chansey, Sableye-Mega and Shedinja. Band Victini can also pose a odd problem for my team as Pyukumuku isn't able to take 2 Bolt Strikes, and Gliscor takes enough damage that even with Poison Heal I am forced to Roost or else I can't live the next hit making a 50/50 for Roost or Earthquake. As bad as that sounds, Victini can't come in on Gliscor, and Shedinja and Sableye scout with Protect with Pyukumuku being able to scout using Recover so while problematic on paper, in actual battles it can be played around without many problems.

??? Tier Threats (Can either not be a huge issue or I lose at team preview)

They had to be mentioned at some point, so here we are, the members of the Pursuit gang. These pokemon basically make it impossible to use Shedinja unless they are either removed from the game or are weakened to the point were Shedinja could 2HKO which is highly unlikely. While Shedinja could burn them, losing my only option to certain setup threats makes the trade not worth it in most cases. Pursuit users are annoying pokemon where you have to use Shedinja sparingly, to reduce the chance of it being trapped, prepare to make alot of doubles if you see these threats.

And that's everything! I know this was an extremely long post, so thanks for keeping with it for this long, the pokepaste to the team is here https://pokepast.es/fc84c41260291541. Would love to see any feedback or comments about this team.

Replays
As someone pointed out, since I usually /ionext all my games, there aren't many replays of the team, so here are some replays of me playing against other people.

In this battle Shedinja walled at least Tapu-Koko and Lopunny-Mega, preventing him from using them throughout the game.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-824038921

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-823530324
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-823527696
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-823523323​

 

[MetaNite]

Awesome team, the triple top of the ladder is insanely impressive imo. I think 244 HP on Gliscor will allow it to recover more from Poison Heal. Some threats that might not be that common are Serperior and Leech Seed/SD Tapu Bulu. Serperior in particular looks deadly since it doesn’t care about a burn and can more easily plow through Zapdos. Toxic on Chansey might be your best bet to handle Serp but you still have to predict when to use it to avoid Substitute. Other benefit would be you can hit Heracross on the switch to make it significantly easier to deal with.

 

[Archer Kirby]

Awesome team, the triple top of the ladder is insanely impressive imo. I think 244 HP on Gliscor will allow it to recover more from Poison Heal. Some threats that might not be that common are Serperior and Leech Seed/SD Tapu Bulu. Serperior in particular looks deadly since it doesn’t care about a burn and can more easily plow through Zapdos. Toxic on Chansey might be your best bet to handle Serp but you still have to predict when to use it to avoid Substitute. Other benefit would be you can hit Heracross on the switch to make it significantly easier to deal with.

As for Serperior, my usual game plan is to Roost stall the Leaf Storms. So I wouldn't actually use Heat Wave on Zapdos right after switching in.

200 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 76-90 (19.8 - 23.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 200 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 153-180 (39.9 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 200 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 228-269 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 200 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 305-359 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Since Zapdos can Roost off almost all the damage of the first 2 Leaf Storms, Pressure makes it so Serperior only has 2 more left. While it is possible that Zapdos can drop to another 2 Leaf Storms depending on the rolls, that would mean that Serperior is unable to deal with Pyukumuku, Chansey or Sableye-Mega on my team due to being out of Leaf Storms. Zapdos doesn't usually eat an Leaf Storm on the switch anyways because the Serperior wants to avoid Toxic on pokemon like Gliscor so they usually click Sub. But thats generally my gameplan for dealing with Zapdos, and if I really felt uncomfortable I would try and setup Light Screen beforehand.

As for Tapu-Bulu, the standard SD set is unable to harm Shedinja, and my first option would be to Toxic it with Gliscor and then go Zapdos and wear it down with Toxic damage + Heatwave.

+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor in Grassy Terrain: 249-294 (70.3 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

So assuming this was a SD and not Bulk Up Tapu-Bulu, Gliscor could still live 1 hit and Toxic Tapu-Bulu, making it more easy to deal with between the rest of my team, as 2 of my pokemon can Protect Stall and Zapdos resists all but Stone Edge. But I honestly didn't see Leech Seed on Tapu-Bulu and Stone Edge was never paired with SD, and even if it was, I could then Toxic it and switch between Sableye-Mega and Shedinja with Protect Stall but I do agree that could be risky, But if it Zapdos and Shedinja couldn't deal with it which has happened on a few occassions, that is the method I used.

As for Heracross-Mega, while I could run Toxic on Chansey to hit it on the switch, that still doesn't help if it comes in via Volt Switch or U-turn, as while Shedinja is very good at blocking some pivots like Tapu-Koko, there are some like AV Magearna which runs Hidden Power Fire and Ice Beam that I can't block with Shedinja or Gliscor, and force me to go Chansey which was why I opted to stick with Light Screen.

 

[rainofhatred]

grats on your peak, well done.

im posting to ask if u have any notable replays of the team putting in work, would be awesome to see especially shedinja being the star of them. couldnt find much replays from searching ur account names.

 

[Archer Kirby]

grats on your peak, well done.

im posting to ask if u have any notable replays of the team putting in work, would be awesome to see especially shedinja being the star of them. couldnt find much replays from searching ur account names.

Hey I edited my first post to include some replays at the bottom, If I play anymore games which has Shedinja star in the match (Will most likely be vs Veil or Rain), I'll be sure to put in the replay section.

 

[Finie]

Good job on reaching Number 1! That's really impressive, and frankly the only request I have is that you post replays on how to actually use the team (specifically Shedinja) since it is a very difficult Mon to use in my opinion. Thanks for sharing the team!

Finie​

 

[Archer Kirby]

Good job on reaching Number 1! That's really impressive, and frankly the only request I have is that you post replays on how to actually use the team (specifically Shedinja) since it is a very difficult Mon to use in my opinion. Thanks for sharing the team!

Finie​

Hey Finie, Shedinja is difficult to use as you need to play carefully and prevent hazards. I've added it to my replay section but here is a link of a battle that shows Shedinja walling 2 of this mons and playing around HP Fire Tapu-Lele. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-824038921

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Great RMT post bro. Really shows dedication you were willing to top ladder 3 times just to show off this team. Also glad to see this idea finally updated to see this idea be updated for the current metagame. Only one question, how does this team effectively deal with Mega Gyarados? Seems really annoying if it’s packing taunt, even if zapdos is there.

Be unique! and stop being a cancer boring player!

If Sheninja in an OU stall isn’t unique enough, idk what is. Also, I find it impressive he found a way to deviate from normal stall and try something new and virtually unseen. If the RMT was so unoriginal, make your own and don’t unnecessarily shit on other people’s RMTs.

 

[Archer Kirby]

Great RMT post bro. Really shows dedication you were willing to top ladder 3 times just to show off this team. Also glad to see this idea finally updated to see this idea be updated for the current metagame. Only one question, how does this team effectively deal with Mega Gyarados? Seems really annoying if it’s packing taunt, even if zapdos is there.


If Sheninja in an OU stall isn’t unique enough, idk what is. Also, I find it impressive he found a way to deviate from normal stall and try something new and virtually unseen. If the RMT was so unoriginal, make your own and don’t unnecessarily shit on other people’s RMTs.

Ok so on paper, Gyarados should not be issue for Zapdos assuming to these calcs;

+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 178-211 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 178-211 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 168-198 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So 90% of the time, Zapdos shouldn't be 2HKO by +1 Mega Gyarados and should always 2HKO back. In the event of getting flinched, crunch dropped or Zapdos isn't at full health in addition to packing taunt and the first Discharge did not paralyze, then the battle gets more tricky. My next bet would be to go Mega Sableye or Gliscor depending on the remaining pokemon on the opponent's team. Sableye will force taunt, to avoid burn but at that point if Foul Play didn't KO after discharge damage, it will next turn and Sableye avoids the OHKO from anything at +1. Gliscor can live one Waterfall at +1 (+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 276-326 (77.9 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and can toxic it, meaning Mega Gyarados gets worn down with Protect and Pyukumuku. This is assuming that Gliscor doesn't get taunted, but being taunted when Mega Gyarados has both +1 and Waterfall is extremely unlikely. But yes, there are ways to play around it if Zapdos fails.

 

[DaWoblefet]

Fast Pyukumuku is a really clever idea, and overall I really like a bunch of the interesting twists and concepts you've employed. Congrats on your ladder results!

Can you comment a bit about the stall mirror? What are the important pieces on your team that you look to try to conserve, and what are some of the things on their team that you prioritize getting rid of?

 

[Archer Kirby]

Fast Pyukumuku is a really clever idea, and overall I really like a bunch of the interesting twists and concepts you've employed. Congrats on your ladder results!

Can you comment a bit about the stall mirror? What are the important pieces on your team that you look to try to conserve, and what are some of the things on their team that you prioritize getting rid of?

Ok so im gonna talk about 2 types of Stall and how I deal with them.

Stall without Mega Sab

This is the type of stall that isn't too hard to win against depending on what you trap with Pyukumuku. Pyukumuku is essentially my wincon aginst other stall as if i can trap removing a mon from the opponent like Chansey, it can open the way forward for other pokemon in the team to wear down the remains of the opponent's team. Shedinja sadly is usually dead weight in this because many stall pokemon carry either status, knock or a move that can harm it.

Stall with Mega Sab

Gonna be honest here, there isn't a way to break through other teams with Mega Sab. Using block Pyukumuku is way too risky as Sab can just switch in for free and magic bounce back everything Pyukumuku can do. Best bet here is to play defensively and try to stall out to the 1000 turn limit. Not exactly great and fun, but its a way to avoid a loss.

In terms of conserving, nothing on stall easily kills someone else on stall, so it shouldn't be hard to maintain your mons. If Pyukumuku could trap something, I would go for either Chansey or Toxapex. Zapdos and Tangrowth are good as well but they would have to be toxic'd beforehand. Hope this helps.

 

[Umlaug]

Hello there, just want to offer some objective criticism coming from a stall player that hopefully you don't take to heart... but i do feel it's necessary in case someone tries to justify this team as being worthy of a showcase or something like that. I will review this in 3 parts: Overall team composition, in which i look at why the team does or does not work, where it overlaps, etc, and then the threatlist, and then some closing opinions.

Team composition thoughts


The Shedinja set is perfect. Spite is something i considered over sneak but for your team this is as good as it gets. Shedinja in general is not something i can comment too much on because you built the team around it rather than the other way around, so in this case it has a small amount of viability. Blocking volt turn spam is obviously very nice, but IMO that's about where it's benefits end since walling manaphy, magearna, and swampert are not that hard for most standard stall pokemon to do.

Hazard control core:

Zapdos is where I start having issues with the team, i think. Pressure is great, but the things you are aiming to beat could easily be beaten by pyukumuku or gliscor if you gave it taunt. Gliscor and pyuku is a really great core by itself, zapdos doesn't really offer anything defog-wise besides checking those offensive threats you mentioned, which don't carry stealth rock. Most importantly, and I cannot stress this enough, you said it only beats things if they lack certain common moves. Now you see why it's not a great defogger. More often than not, you're just going to get toxiced or set up on, and pressure will not save you. I would say give it substitute but you still lose to calm mind, and can't really attack anything. Moltres is the favourable pressure defogger in OU and for good reason, so I think zapdos really holds you back.

Gliscor is great, maybe the best team player and a necessary fogger for sure which compounds well with sableye. Don't have much to say about it.

Sableye is great and i'm glad you adjusted it to be better against physical attackers since mawile gives you huge issues (more on that later). Though if you already beat ferrothorn and related annoyances with this thing alone, why use zapdos or pyukumuku? This is another really important point. It also has a really hard time against offensive heatran and all your defoggers do, really.

And then pyukumuku, a great choice overall, but again, you have other mons to beat defensive setters so idk why you need pyuku. It's great against set up sweepers and offensive threats, but i can't verify the validity of it's hazard control prowess. I almost put this one in the defensive backbone camp, but really you can tell it was put on more to beat defensive threats.

Defensive backbone:

Chansey is ok but i dont see how you're beating specs tapu lele with it (more on that later). Screens are definitely an underutilised choice on stall in general. I do think the set could be more well optimised, and while you do cover yourself from wallbreakers with light screen, you don't cover yourself from set up sweepers in general. Chansey is standard so I can't complain too much about it.

Thoughts on this team in the current meta

Now, the reason I made this post is to highlight why this team may not be the most well adjusted to the current meta. I almost wonder how you even managed to top the ladder without running into various threats, but that's more of a compliment on your playing skill if anything. Let's review a list of things you cannot beat, and why, starting from the VR. I will then discuss why its important to be able to beat these things.




It's an S tier threat and you almost cannot beat it at all. This is really bad. With firium you have no chance against it at all especially because your gliscor isn't the arguably better spdef set. I have no idea how you managed to overcome a good heatran player unless their set was bad or you got lucky.

You also really struggle against this. Most landorus these days are spamming knock off which requires you to play really well, or they're running a highly offensive suicide set that can take out at least one of your mons with z edge at the very least. If i made a stall i would at the very least have things that can beat heatran and landorus very reliably considering they will be setting up against you in a third of all games due to being S tier, highly used threats.

You don't have an effective way to beat calm mind users in general, that's what i talked about when i mentioned light screen chansey. If this is calm mind it's going to do a lot of damage to you. It could even run knock off or taunt and just pressure you way too much. Remember that it has a free moveslot at all times which could be any number of things that beat stall without a dedicated counter. It's not a huge threat but being at A+ rank should scare you.

This is a pretty huge deal. I admire defensive gliscor in its ability to generally not give a fuck and support the team immensely, but its not switching in to this at all. Pyukumuku is also falling flat to every set this runs, especially substitute. This is also the first thing I would consider if I made a stall, because it's wallbreaking presence in this tier is unmatched.

Stone edge variants will 6-0 your team. Without a reliable physical defensive backbone, like in the case with mawile, you simply don't have the means to beat things like this, even if you play well. It often has a moveslot leftover which can run sub if it wants, which is easily game over for you.

You don't beat this at all really. If they are specs psyshock, it's a free 50% on chansey as you switch out into sab/ninja and they don't have to entertain that switch by staying in. losing 50% on chansey for nothing is a huge problem, and light screen will not save you. Taunt variants also give you trouble in general.

Now that A rank is done, I will go over only a few things you lose to in B and below, simply because these are things rising in viability.

Rising in popularity, though I've never found it threatening. That said, It pressures all of your hazard control. Be afraid.

I've started using spite on my sableye for this. No idea how stall is supposed to beat it otherwise. And it spams knock off for free so you can't heal bell anymore on gliscor.

Actually gives you a lot of problems in general.

I've been waiting to get to this one. See, hera is becoming very popular at the moment. I simply don't think you can afford to have a stall that loses to it from turn 1.

Similar problem as the other psychic mons only this time you can't rely on chansey as much. If they have the right set you are in for a bad time. I only mentioned this to emphasise your other issues more clearly.


Another very important one. Not sure why but people seem to really like this and your chansey does nothing against it. Sableye is going to really struggle too. Most run sub in my experience. The reason I don't think its a good idea in general to sack a mon and then revenge kill is that a good opponent will easily switch out, so you can't rely on shadow sneak for this, especially if it has sub.

Its definitely not a bad pick these days because it soaks up toxic spikes. Your team would be more well prepared with spdef gliscor.

With all that said, you manage to comfortably beat a lot of threats, particularly defensive ones, so props for that.

General opinions

I purposely cherrypicked the bad parts for the sake of this post. That doesn't mean I think it's a bad team. I like it a lot, especially the sets and pokemon you decided to bring to the table. I think it could be much better adjusted to fit the meta, especially because pyukumuku, gliscor, and possibly shedinja are rising up in usefullness on stall with their unique abilities and as such are very close to forming a good team if they have better partners. I also realise it's impossible to make stall that beats everything, especially in Z Move meta, but you should aim to beat the top threats at least or every game just becomes match-up based. Generally stall is massively unexplored this gen due to increased power creep, and moves we never thought would be good like spite, light screen, etc, are actually some of the more underrated.

Shedinja is not a very needed pokemon in this meta, but the small niche that it does have is mostly brought out with this team. I was expecting this team to be meta-defining like branflakes shedinja stall, but it ended up making me feel sort of lukewarm. Can't really blame you for that, it's mostl;y the meta's fault.

 

[Archer Kirby]

Hello there, just want to offer some objective criticism coming from a stall player that hopefully you don't take to heart... but i do feel it's necessary in case someone tries to justify this team as being worthy of a showcase or something like that. I will review this in 3 parts: Overall team composition, in which i look at why the team does or does not work, where it overlaps, etc, and then the threatlist, and then some closing opinions.

Team composition thoughts


The Shedinja set is perfect. Spite is something i considered over sneak but for your team this is as good as it gets. Shedinja in general is not something i can comment too much on because you built the team around it rather than the other way around, so in this case it has a small amount of viability. Blocking volt turn spam is obviously very nice, but IMO that's about where it's benefits end since walling manaphy, magearna, and swampert are not that hard for most standard stall pokemon to do.

Hazard control core:

Zapdos is where I start having issues with the team, i think. Pressure is great, but the things you are aiming to beat could easily be beaten by pyukumuku or gliscor if you gave it taunt. Gliscor and pyuku is a really great core by itself, zapdos doesn't really offer anything defog-wise besides checking those offensive threats you mentioned, which don't carry stealth rock. Most importantly, and I cannot stress this enough, you said it only beats things if they lack certain common moves. Now you see why it's not a great defogger. More often than not, you're just going to get toxiced or set up on, and pressure will not save you. I would say give it substitute but you still lose to calm mind, and can't really attack anything. Moltres is the favourable pressure defogger in OU and for good reason, so I think zapdos really holds you back.

Gliscor is great, maybe the best team player and a necessary fogger for sure which compounds well with sableye. Don't have much to say about it.

Sableye is great and i'm glad you adjusted it to be better against physical attackers since mawile gives you huge issues (more on that later). Though if you already beat ferrothorn and related annoyances with this thing alone, why use zapdos or pyukumuku? This is another really important point. It also has a really hard time against offensive heatran and all your defoggers do, really.

And then pyukumuku, a great choice overall, but again, you have other mons to beat defensive setters so idk why you need pyuku. It's great against set up sweepers and offensive threats, but i can't verify the validity of it's hazard control prowess. I almost put this one in the defensive backbone camp, but really you can tell it was put on more to beat defensive threats.

Defensive backbone:

Chansey is ok but i dont see how you're beating specs tapu lele with it (more on that later). Screens are definitely an underutilised choice on stall in general. I do think the set could be more well optimised, and while you do cover yourself from wallbreakers with light screen, you don't cover yourself from set up sweepers in general. Chansey is standard so I can't complain too much about it.

Thoughts on this team in the current meta

Now, the reason I made this post is to highlight why this team may not be the most well adjusted to the current meta. I almost wonder how you even managed to top the ladder without running into various threats, but that's more of a compliment on your playing skill if anything. Let's review a list of things you cannot beat, and why, starting from the VR. I will then discuss why its important to be able to beat these things.




It's an S tier threat and you almost cannot beat it at all. This is really bad. With firium you have no chance against it at all especially because your gliscor isn't the arguably better spdef set. I have no idea how you managed to overcome a good heatran player unless their set was bad or you got lucky.

You also really struggle against this. Most landorus these days are spamming knock off which requires you to play really well, or they're running a highly offensive suicide set that can take out at least one of your mons with z edge at the very least. If i made a stall i would at the very least have things that can beat heatran and landorus very reliably considering they will be setting up against you in a third of all games due to being S tier, highly used threats.

You don't have an effective way to beat calm mind users in general, that's what i talked about when i mentioned light screen chansey. If this is calm mind it's going to do a lot of damage to you. It could even run knock off or taunt and just pressure you way too much. Remember that it has a free moveslot at all times which could be any number of things that beat stall without a dedicated counter. It's not a huge threat but being at A+ rank should scare you.

This is a pretty huge deal. I admire defensive gliscor in its ability to generally not give a fuck and support the team immensely, but its not switching in to this at all. Pyukumuku is also falling flat to every set this runs, especially substitute. This is also the first thing I would consider if I made a stall, because it's wallbreaking presence in this tier is unmatched.

Stone edge variants will 6-0 your team. Without a reliable physical defensive backbone, like in the case with mawile, you simply don't have the means to beat things like this, even if you play well. It often has a moveslot leftover which can run sub if it wants, which is easily game over for you.

You don't beat this at all really. If they are specs psyshock, it's a free 50% on chansey as you switch out into sab/ninja and they don't have to entertain that switch by staying in. losing 50% on chansey for nothing is a huge problem, and light screen will not save you. Taunt variants also give you trouble in general.

Now that A rank is done, I will go over only a few things you lose to in B and below, simply because these are things rising in viability.

Rising in popularity, though I've never found it threatening. That said, It pressures all of your hazard control. Be afraid.

I've started using spite on my sableye for this. No idea how stall is supposed to beat it otherwise. And it spams knock off for free so you can't heal bell anymore on gliscor.

Actually gives you a lot of problems in general.

I've been waiting to get to this one. See, hera is becoming very popular at the moment. I simply don't think you can afford to have a stall that loses to it from turn 1.

Similar problem as the other psychic mons only this time you can't rely on chansey as much. If they have the right set you are in for a bad time. I only mentioned this to emphasise your other issues more clearly.


Another very important one. Not sure why but people seem to really like this and your chansey does nothing against it. Sableye is going to really struggle too. Most run sub in my experience. The reason I don't think its a good idea in general to sack a mon and then revenge kill is that a good opponent will easily switch out, so you can't rely on shadow sneak for this, especially if it has sub.

Its definitely not a bad pick these days because it soaks up toxic spikes. Your team would be more well prepared with spdef gliscor.

With all that said, you manage to comfortably beat a lot of threats, particularly defensive ones, so props for that.

General opinions

I purposely cherrypicked the bad parts for the sake of this post. That doesn't mean I think it's a bad team. I like it a lot, especially the sets and pokemon you decided to bring to the table. I think it could be much better adjusted to fit the meta, especially because pyukumuku, gliscor, and possibly shedinja are rising up in usefullness on stall with their unique abilities and as such are very close to forming a good team if they have better partners. I also realise it's impossible to make stall that beats everything, especially in Z Move meta, but you should aim to beat the top threats at least or every game just becomes match-up based. Generally stall is massively unexplored this gen due to increased power creep, and moves we never thought would be good like spite, light screen, etc, are actually some of the more underrated.

Shedinja is not a very needed pokemon in this meta, but the small niche that it does have is mostly brought out with this team. I was expecting this team to be meta-defining like branflakes shedinja stall, but it ended up making me feel sort of lukewarm. Can't really blame you for that, it's mostl;y the meta's fault.

Ok firstly, thanks for the in depth opinion on my team, was great to see so much thought put into it, and now time for my response will be covering all the points you made so sorry for this being super long in advance.

You say that other pokemon can wall threats like Swampert and thats true. Pokemon like Buzzwole, Slowbro can easily be deal with Swampert then Shedinja. But I feel you don't understand how threatening Manaphy and certain Magearnas can be in regards to stall. For example Manaphy in rain is a nightmare to deal with. All unaware users bar Pyukumuku will lose to Z-Manaphy in rain without Manaphy even having to use its Z-Move. The only answer to Manaphy in rain bar Shedinja would probably be Toxapex and Pyukumuku, and even those can lose. Toxapex is mainly phys def on stall, but even if its spd, it still gets 2HKO by +3 Psychic into +0, meaning that you have to make a 50/50 that the Manaphy player has no risk. If you switch out and they Psychic, they can simply Tail Glow next turn and Pex still isn't able to come back in, and if they TG when you switch out the game is over. Through Psychic drops Manaphy can also get past Pyukumuku making it a shaky answer. In regards to Magearna, the set in particular is the CM, Pain Split, Z-Thunderbolt or Z-Fleur Cannon which basically 6-0s most stalls. Most stall mons can not switch into a boosted Magearna and Pokemon that can like Chansey just get pain splited so they can't win. The other sets can be dealt with by other pokemon, but just had to get across how stall doesn't have as much options as you'd think for Manaphy in and out of Rain and CM Pain Split Magearna. Also keep in mind another thing about Shedinja is unlike other stall pokemon lacking regen, that can get worn down throughout the match, Shedinja doesn't have that issue, allowing it to forever wall whatever it hard counters.

You said Zapdos walls pokemon which can be easily beaten by Pyukumuku and Gliscor, but I have to disagree there. Zapdos deals with huge threats like SD Kartana, Serperior, Gyarados and its Mega, Pinsir and more that the other two just can't handle. And yes, while those threats do not carry Stealth Rock, that still doesn't mean I don't need an answer to them. Removing Zapdos from the team would open up more holes then I could close with another mon. Pressure is also great for PP stalling moves in general. Now I did say that Zapdos could wall pokemon like Toxapex if they lacked certain moves however, if Toxapex is Toxic, then it likely isn't Toxic Spikes meaning I could just go between Chansey and Gliscor/Sableye to PP stall and force a switch. But Zapdos has a clear role on my team outside of preventing hazards. Moltres doesn't do anything noteworthy for my team, It just means I lose to Bulu even worse, Mega Gyara 6-0s, Makes it much harder to Defog as I take 50% from rocks and means Z-Torn with Knock Off is alot harder to deal with as I have no Hurricane resists.

"Though if you already beat ferrothorn and related annoyances with this thing alone, why use Zapdos or Pyukumuku?" Because having just one way to deal with certain pokemon isn't enough. For example Sableye can beat ferrothorn yes, but switching into Power Whip forces a recover, because otherwise Sableye could be 2HKO on the next switchin if it loses a speed tie. Also in the odd event that one of my pokemon faint due to crits, hax, unexpected movesets or just generally being outplayed, I don't want the game to instantly be over or have Shedinja rendered unusable of my hazard repellents faint. It could also just be I need Sableye at full HP for another Pokemon such as Blacephalon, and so been forced to recover each time I switch into Ferrothorn not being worth it. Heatran is an issue, but the only set that can pose a serious problem is Z-Fire/Flash + Taunt. If you have read my other posts, then you would know that Sableye has to play around Heatran initially to find out what set it is. If its Z, then I would rather go Chansey, allow Heatran to setup rocks and set up screens to allow my other pokemon to remove them within those turns. I'll admit my Heatran options aren't as strong as they could be, but i'll go more into detail with the list of mons you say my team can't deal with.

As for Pyukumuku, Its mainly to deal with 3 things, Manaphy, fire types pokemon like ZardX and trapping Clef and Pex which the other unaware users can't do. I understand you haven't verified how good it is at dealing with hazards (maybe due to not using the team much/at all?), but I'd advise using it/seeing it in action (maybe i'll provide replays), so you can see how good it is at its job. That aside I needed it to deal with setup users and fire types, so it was between Quagsire and Pyukumuku so I chose Pyukumuku because it fit the team better.

I'll get to Tapu-Lele later, but I you should have seen from the RMT or at the very least by my calcs as to why Chansey could stay in vs Specs Lele. But I'll talk about that and the other options later, same with screens against setup users.

"
Thoughts on this team in the current meta

Now, the reason I made this post is to highlight why this team may not be the most well adjusted to the current meta. I almost wonder how you even managed to top the ladder without running into various threats, but that's more of a compliment on your playing skill if anything. Let's review a list of things you cannot beat, and why, starting from the VR. I will then discuss why its important to be able to beat these things."

Im sorry but, I can't read this from any angle that doesn't make it seem any less of an insult which irritates me. You should clearly know that to top the ladder with 3 Alts from around 1500s and to maintain the Alt at the top while the others climb means that the team would have dealt with everything the meta has and more. I don't know why assume because something is a threat to the team, that it can't be played around (like do you really think I never met a Heatran or Lando-T, or everyone I faced just played it bad, like really?). I think this team is well adjusted to the current meta, not perfect, I know there are ways to improve it either further hence the point of this RMT, but I can't agree with it not being well adjusted. Speaking of disagreements, every pokemon you put on the threat list below I will comment on, because some of the threats clearly pose no problem to this team (I don't know how Zapdos is ever an issue against Stall with Light Screen but more on that later). Also keep in mind I'm fully aware that my team doesn't wall everything (No team can), so I might just be one of those pokemon i lose to.

If Heatran lacks taunt, then Chansey easily deals with it. Yes Heatran can set up rocks, but then in return I can set up Light Screen to allow one of my pokemon to defog in the later turns. and Z-Magma + Taunt very rare, as Z-Heatran usually runs offensive moves such as Flash Cannon, its the more defensive sets that run it. Those sets in turn are walled by Sableye as they can't 2HKO it. The only big issue with Heatran is finding out what set it is, and even then, its not that hard. I can simply Protect turn 1, and then Recover turn 2, and calc the damage I took from Magma or Earth Power and act accordingly. Yes Heatran can be more of an issue if I have to switch in Sableye to Heatran without knowing its set, but even then Heatran has never been an issue for this team, it just requires proper scouting and carefully being played around.

You say I struggle against this but I just don't see it. Knock Off is growing more common, but that's mainly due to Scarf Lando-T growing more common as defensive and Z sets don't run. should it be Knock Off, then its more of a case of just making toxic orb activate on Gliscor first before switching it in, and Sableye and Pyukumuku are easily able to force it out because of fear of status. In terms of suicide sets, it just doesn't work against Sableye if I lead Sableye and they lead Lando-T, I can burn them to negate the +2 from SD and after that Foul Play kills and I live any attack they do, so unless i miss Will-O-Wisp, leading suicide Lando-T is great for me. In terms of switching it in later, I also don't see how it wins. for Z-Lando-T Z Edge even at +2, does not kill Gliscor, So I could just Toxic it, and then recover spam with Pyukumuku with the best they could do getting up rocks which I could defog later. So Lando-T really isn't an issue due to the reasons stated. Every set bar Z-Fly could be dealt with by switching into Pyukumuku and that set is walled either by Zapdos or Gliscor. Boom LandoT could Explode after setting up rocks, but Gliscor would eat the hit and if it sets up with SD then I would go Pyukumuku on the Boom and just Defog later, there isn't really a reason for the team to struggle against this.

Ok so keep in mind I have Light Screen Chansey. Your argument is Alakazam could spam Calm Mind but why would I not setup up screens and then go Sableye, as Foul Play 2HKOs. I think you misunderstand and think that I'll stay in with Chansey to deal with stuff under screens and apart from Lele, thats wrong. I'll just switch to a more suited pokemon to deal with it. Even if Alakazam had Taunt, Sableye being Max Spd would still deal with Alakazam, under screens or not, so I don't see why this is a problem.

Firstly, let me get this out the way. Mega Mawile is a monster to any stall. Mega Mawile and Hoopa pretty much lack switchins to all its coverage and quite honestly, there is no pokemon that deals with it unless you want to dedicate an entire team slot just to deal with such as Bulky Volcarona or Arcanine, and doing so will leave the team open to to other threats. Now Gliscor actually does switch into Mawile and avoid the 2HKO from Play Rough to correct you about Gliscor not being able to switch in.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 171-202 (48.3 - 57%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

The Issue is if Mawile does SD, and runs a move that can hurt Shedinja. Keep in mind that Shedinja's set outspeeds all Mawile sets so I could potentially burn it allowing Pyukumuku to wall it. Mawile is a pokemon that basically comes down to reads on whether or not I can burn it with Shedinja as living a +2 Play Rough with Gliscor is not in my favour. But yes as with almost all stalls, Mawile is a huge threat and can tear a hole in the team.

Most Bulu run Stone Edge only on scarf, but should that not be the case, as stated before in my previous posts, my option would be to Toxic Bulu with Gliscor and wear it down that way. If Bulu is running the unheard of set of being Sub and SD and SE then I would rather just lose that game then modify the team. Bulu with SD and Edge can pose a problem but after its been status'd its easy enough to play around and 5/6 of my team are able to status Bulu limiting what it can only come into, which is just Chansey. As for the Bulus not running Stone Edge, Shedinja walls.

Ok so from reading what you said about Tapu-Lele and other mons, I'm guessing you glossed over my Light Screen part. Firstly, Light Screen affects Psyshock, so saying Light Screen won't save me from Specs Lele is false, it does. Also Lele not want to come into any of my team bar Zapdos as Chansey sets up screens and avoids the 2HKO (will post that calc again below), Shedinja and Sableye count with Protect and Gliscor and Pyukumuku can threaten to live a hit and Toxic putting Lele on a timer. Even if I choose to switch, Lele has a 1/3 chance of hitting Chansey, Sableye or Shedinja and this is assuming screens aren't up and because I have 48pp and there is a Lele, I'd try to keep them up often and also assuming that Lele is HP Fire (or the rarer Shadow Ball) to hit Shedinja in the first place. Taunt Lele's usually don't run HP Fire but if they do, then they would be an issue.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 390-460 (55.4 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain through Light Screen: 195-230 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

And yes, Psyshock may do Physical damage but IS counted as a special move, meaning Light Screen will halve the damage taken.

Diancie doesn't threaten the team, but it does pressure my hazard removal like you said. I did consider running metal burst over will o wisp but the trade off wasn't worth it. Lando-T will forever be more common and Diancie is still rare so its something I didn't prioritise on dealing with.

Because Sableye is basically only used on stall teams, I would rather let Chansey get knocked and pivot between Sableye and Chansey to PP stall and force it out rather then let Gliscor get knocked off. Chansey being knocked off doesn't matter much in the long run because stall struggles to kill stall anyways. I never let Gliscor get knocked off against this, so while my way of playing around Sableye may be different to conventional stall teams, It has never been an issue.

I don't see how this is an issue at all. Unless Zapdos has HP Ice, then Gliscor walls it. and even if it does carry HP Ice, I can merely set up screens with Chansey which also walls it and then switch out to any other member of my team as Zapdos doesn't get close to even 3HKOing pokemon like my own Zapdos in screens. Gliscor and Pyukumuku also threaten with Toxic so it wouldn't switch into them.

Heracross is a bit more common for sure, but is still nothing compared to how common Mega Mawile, Mega Medicham, Mega Alakazam and even Megas like Gyarados are at this point in time. I've already said on my RMT that this was one of the 2 pokemon that the team could not handle easily, with my best bet being to Toxic with Gliscor and pivot between Shedinja, Sableye, Protects and Pyukumuku. But its a far from concrete answer and is just one of those mons that Stall in general struggles to deal with unless you really go out of your way and use something like Bounce Buzzwole. Because this pokemon is still relatively rare, I would much prefer to deal with the more common megas and just have a hard time vs this then vice versa as I don't even see Heracross in a large number of games.

Ok so no set of Mew will pose alot of trouble for my team. Defensive is walled by Sableye and for Z, I would go Chansey, set up Light Screen and then just Toxic with Pyukumuku as it lives hits easily under screens from Z-Mew. This is assuming that mew is running Fire Blast over Aura Sphere to hit Shedinja in the first place.

Gonna cover both of these in one area. Like Alakazam, I would simply switch in Chansey, set up screen and then switch in to Sableye for the Non choiced versions. Foul Play will OHKO even HP invested (Speed Boost Blace from full) and Gengar easily drops to 2 Foul Plays while not able to do anything back. Those calcs are below for you to check. Speed Boost Blace doesn't even kill Sableye at +1 with anything so I don't even need screens, and the same applies to LO Gengar, so I don't know why you felt these two mons were ever an issue. Choice Specs sets may be more tricky but thats only due to Trick and its obviously not an issue when they trick a mon I don't need or its an issue when they do, but for the more common sets that aren't Choiced, Sableye easily deals with them

+1 20 SpA Blacephalon Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 246-289 (81.1 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Sableye-Mega Foul Play vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 336-396 (110.1 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 110-133 (36.3 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Sableye-Mega Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 198-234 (75.5 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In Conclusion I feel that you've misunderstood the team quite alot, In terms of how I use Light Screen and each team member's role. Now that's only fair as I'm the one who built the team, and built it while considering multiple factors while people like you have to make do with the options given, so from that area it is expected. However for some of your points such as Gliscor not switching into Mawile, for Lele under screens and Blacephalon I do wish you actually posted Calcs to prove your point instead of going off by memory which as seen by my posted calcs, can be incorrect, making you think the team struggles against certain pokemon when they actually don't. Now I agree with you that Shedinja isn't a very needed pokemon in this meta just yet, and that is possibly the reason why you feel its not as meta-defining as branflakes team, but keep in mind that was in very different meta. That was before Z-moves existed, before Tapus and Magearna roamed the land and when Hoopa and Mawile were safely locked in Ubers with Dugtrio being free in OU. The only benefit stall got this gen is Toxapex and Alomuk, so expecting this stall to be meta defining will sadly disappoint you. That said this team is still in my opinion, very good against the meta and most of its threats. But regardless of Shedinja's need in the meta, it has a niche, and is a pokemon I both want to build around and can make it work in this meta which is the reason I chose to build around it.

Don't worry about cherrypicking just the points you felt were flaws, you spent alot of time making your post and once again i'm grateful for your feedback. Sorry for the ungodly length of this post, but I wanted to cover all your points. If you do reply to this, I would be interested to see what replacements you suggest for this team. I've covered why I wouldn't do Moltres > Zapdos but I am curious as to what else you would suggest. Thanks again for reading all of this.

 

[Umlaug]

Hello i don't come here often, so sorry for the late reply. It will also not be a very long, detailed reply like last time. I want to immediately get out of the way my theory behind a lot of my points, which basically comes down to the fact that shedinja's niche isn't needed at all in this meta. Blocking Koko and walling manaphy is not particularly hard to do in one slot, as ferrothorn does that while also providing better utility for stall. Chansey + Steelix can do the exact same thing while also countering mawile. Manaphy isn't nearly as hard to counter as it was since it now runs z moves, and rest sets are generally terrible. Obviously there are other pokemon, such as swampert, which shedinja has the bonus of beating, but again this is not particularly hard to accomplish naturally as you add more common and relevant stall pokemon. All of my other points really just hinged on the fact that you could simply not use shedinja at all and make a far better stall team overall. Not to mention you can never just use shedinja, you need to use like 3 or 4 other things to adequately support it. With that out of the way, and with you still wanting to use shedinja, let me continue...

Z Heatran with taunt is not uncommon. It's listed as the top set when you go to analyses. This means when a player needs a heatran set, they'll default to this one. I still think you severely underestimate a good heatran player, and got a bit lucky to run into as many lava plume sets as you did.

I did not gloss over light screen, i kept it in mind especially because i used it myself on various stalls. My point was that chansey cannot switch in and if your tapu lele ever gets a free hit on it, a good player will not have a hard time muscling through your team.

Most importantly, It also gets taunt, did you forget about that?

Anyway, a lot of the other pokemon you mentioned are valid and i should have considered them harder (please don't think I don't understand how light screen works btw), but at least half of them are underestimated by you. Heracross is certainly not hard in general for stall to deal with, if you have enough slots and don't have to support shedinja, of course. Blacephalon is an interesting one particularly because you seem to not care that one pokemon can take your sableye down to an amount of health that would render it pretty useless for the rest of the game. It's not a 6-0 pokemon (unless it has certain niche sets) but you can still see why i mentioned it as a mild threat. This goes for most of the other things I mentioned, which is why I didn't bother posting calcs or doing a full in depth analysis. Essentially my overall point was your team hangs on by a thread to cover relevant threats just so you can use shedinja which hardly covers anything relevant at all.

I get that the point was just to show that shedinja can be used, but my argument was that it shouldn't, due to the compromise in the rest of the team.

Im sorry but, I can't read this from any angle that doesn't make it seem any less of an insult which irritates me. You should clearly know that to top the ladder with 3 Alts from around 1500s and to maintain the Alt at the top while the others climb means that the team would have dealt with everything the meta has and more. I don't know why assume because something is a threat to the team, that it can't be played around (like do you really think I never met a Heatran or Lando-T, or everyone I faced just played it bad, like really?). I think this team is well adjusted to the current meta, not perfect, I know there are ways to improve it either further hence the point of this RMT, but I can't agree with it not being well adjusted. Speaking of disagreements, every pokemon you put on the threat list below I will comment on, because some of the threats clearly pose no problem to this team (I don't know how Zapdos is ever an issue against Stall with Light Screen but more on that later). Also keep in mind I'm fully aware that my team doesn't wall everything (No team can), so I might just be one of those pokemon i lose to.

I want to reply to this specifically because firstly I would never waste my time insulting people on here of all places. Secondly, you don't have any replays aside from the ones you posted. There's literally no way i could ever know whether you've even faced a z heatran. Have some sympathy for someone who's working off of little information. Thirdly I checked your three accounts. You only played around 1800 games, and statistically, that is a tiny sample size which means obviously you wont run into every pokemon, especially when you lost about two 3rds of them on each alt.

This is actually the biggest point in the whole thread, because that means you can lose a fuck ton and still top the ladder. Did you mention that in your RMT? How are we supposed to prove anything you say when very very few replays exist? That really ties together everything I'm trying to say, which is that this team is very inconsistent and doesn't prove anything about shedinja other than it can win favourable team matchups and lose to very serious threats anyway.

Every stall team on the planet is trying and succeeding in countering mawile by the way, hence why I said your team seems to be missing a few screws for the current meta. There's a solid 5 or 6 staples that can check it reliably with minor support.

Your points are good and as always with long posts, both you and I will miss something. But really, the specifics are irrelevant when the team is fundamentally weak, despite showing (unreliably) good ladder performance.

Edit: while im still here I'm going to add a couple more things that i noticed you brought up. See, I would definitely rather use something like volcarona, which has utility beyond just walling things, on my stall, instead of shedinja. I don't really get your point about anything being niche, since you threw the concept of nicheness out the window when you built around shedinja. You now have to assume almost every viable set can and will be faced.

I couldn't really tell you what members I would replace on the team because it's like really the only obvious way to make shedinja work. I personally wouldn't use shedinja, but in this team it feels like you should mix up your hazard control core and run replacements in the spaces of zapdos and pyukumuku (pyuku is definitely not the only way to beat clefable, and it isn't doing much defensively when you don't run EVs.) I would just replace pyuku with something better, that's just me though. People who pick up this team are going to be really upset when they realise pyuku cannot stomach many hits. Alternatively, zapdos could be replaced with a better physical wall as you don't need the defog slot tbqh. I realise having two forms of defog is really good for sheddy but you're really pressed for walls at this stage.

 

[Archer Kirby]

Hello i don't come here often, so sorry for the late reply. It will also not be a very long, detailed reply like last time. I want to immediately get out of the way my theory behind a lot of my points, which basically comes down to the fact that shedinja's niche isn't needed at all in this meta. Blocking Koko and walling manaphy is not particularly hard to do in one slot, as ferrothorn does that while also providing better utility for stall. Chansey + Steelix can do the exact same thing while also countering mawile. Manaphy isn't nearly as hard to counter as it was since it now runs z moves, and rest sets are generally terrible. Obviously there are other pokemon, such as swampert, which shedinja has the bonus of beating, but again this is not particularly hard to accomplish naturally as you add more common and relevant stall pokemon. All of my other points really just hinged on the fact that you could simply not use shedinja at all and make a far better stall team overall. Not to mention you can never just use shedinja, you need to use like 3 or 4 other things to adequately support it. With that out of the way, and with you still wanting to use shedinja, let me continue...

Z Heatran with taunt is not uncommon. It's listed as the top set when you go to analyses. This means when a player needs a heatran set, they'll default to this one. I still think you severely underestimate a good heatran player, and got a bit lucky to run into as many lava plume sets as you did.

I did not gloss over light screen, i kept it in mind especially because i used it myself on various stalls. My point was that chansey cannot switch in and if your tapu lele ever gets a free hit on it, a good player will not have a hard time muscling through your team.

Most importantly, It also gets taunt, did you forget about that?

Anyway, a lot of the other pokemon you mentioned are valid and i should have considered them harder (please don't think I don't understand how light screen works btw), but at least half of them are underestimated by you. Heracross is certainly not hard in general for stall to deal with, if you have enough slots and don't have to support shedinja, of course. Blacephalon is an interesting one particularly because you seem to not care that one pokemon can take your sableye down to an amount of health that would render it pretty useless for the rest of the game. It's not a 6-0 pokemon (unless it has certain niche sets) but you can still see why i mentioned it as a mild threat. This goes for most of the other things I mentioned, which is why I didn't bother posting calcs or doing a full in depth analysis. Essentially my overall point was your team hangs on by a thread to cover relevant threats just so you can use shedinja which hardly covers anything relevant at all.

I get that the point was just to show that shedinja can be used, but my argument was that it shouldn't, due to the compromise in the rest of the team.



I want to reply to this specifically because firstly I would never waste my time insulting people on here of all places. Secondly, you don't have any replays aside from the ones you posted. There's literally no way i could ever know whether you've even faced a z heatran. Have some sympathy for someone who's working off of little information. Thirdly I checked your three accounts. You only played around 1800 games, and statistically, that is a tiny sample size which means obviously you wont run into every pokemon, especially when you lost about two 3rds of them on each alt.

This is actually the biggest point in the whole thread, because that means you can lose a fuck ton and still top the ladder. Did you mention that in your RMT? How are we supposed to prove anything you say when very very few replays exist? That really ties together everything I'm trying to say, which is that this team is very inconsistent and doesn't prove anything about shedinja other than it can win favourable team matchups and lose to very serious threats anyway.

Every stall team on the planet is trying and succeeding in countering mawile by the way, hence why I said your team seems to be missing a few screws for the current meta. There's a solid 5 or 6 staples that can check it reliably with minor support.

Your points are good and as always with long posts, both you and I will miss something. But really, the specifics are irrelevant when the team is fundamentally weak, despite showing (unreliably) good ladder performance.

Edit: while im still here I'm going to add a couple more things that i noticed you brought up. See, I would definitely rather use something like volcarona, which has utility beyond just walling things, on my stall, instead of shedinja. I don't really get your point about anything being niche, since you threw the concept of nicheness out the window when you built around shedinja. You now have to assume almost every viable set can and will be faced.

I couldn't really tell you what members I would replace on the team because it's like really the only obvious way to make shedinja work. I personally wouldn't use shedinja, but in this team it feels like you should mix up your hazard control core and run replacements in the spaces of zapdos and pyukumuku (pyuku is definitely not the only way to beat clefable, and it isn't doing much defensively when you don't run EVs.) I would just replace pyuku with something better, that's just me though. People who pick up this team are going to be really upset when they realise pyuku cannot stomach many hits. Alternatively, zapdos could be replaced with a better physical wall as you don't need the defog slot tbqh. I realise having two forms of defog is really good for sheddy but you're really pressed for walls at this stage.

Alright so I will also keep this brief, firstly Shedinja does have a niche yes, is it needed in this meta? Not really. But is it the pokemon I want to build around for the niche it has? Yes. This is why the team I built has Shedinja, I wanted to build around it and even if other pokemon can fulfil some or most of its role, its still the pokemon I chose to build around and is the one pokemon on this team I would not change. Blocking Koko and Manaphy in one slot is hard for most common stall pokemon. You mentioned Ferrothorn, but that has less of a niche then Shedinja does on stall, lacks reliable recovery and like other pokemon can be vunerable to getting Voltturned on and being forced out immediately. Also we butt heads on this alot over the last few posts so I'm going to post calcs for this one onwards for Manaphy. Manaphy can get to +6 in 2 Turns and Assuming it comes in on a pokemon Gliscor and forces a switch then it bascially starts at +3. You said that somehow Manaphy is more easily to handle due to running Zmoves? I fail to see how its not the exact opposite, as the fact it can run Zmoves means that old options like Clefable can't deal with it anymore.

+6 252 SpA Manaphy Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 603-709 (85.8 - 100.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Clefable: 259-306 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 230-272 (75.9 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Toxapex: 300-354 (99 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 486-572 (120.2 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Thats just a short list of what Manaphy can do to the most common stall pokemon, and thats not even in rain. If you still feel Manaphy isn't hard to counter, then I would love to see a list of your stall mons that can wall Manaphy + have other uses for the team because you speak about using more relevant pokemon on stall, but thats hard to take seriously when you recommend pokemon like ferrothorn on the previous line. Its definitely possible that I could make an even better team without Shedinja, but that would mean it would be better and faster to just remake a new team from scratch as Shedinja was such a focus on the team, and removing it opens up holes I would just need to change the team for, such as suddenly not having a Mega Cham option, dealing with NM Taunt Fini, a Safe Switchin for Koko and more which no singular team member can replace.

You said that ZHeatran with Taunt is a set used, and from checking the analysis thats true, but I disagree with saying because its the first set listed, that most people will default to it. Any decent player would consider other options such as lefties for longevity, or they might already have a Zmove however its true that ZHeatran will force me to outplay the Zmove because Sableye can wall it safely, and having a more safe option would be nice. As for Lele, it isn't as hard to switch Chansey in as you might think. As i said previously, Lele has to predict correctly between Chansey, Sableye and Shedinja, meaning that its always in my favour, and the only pokemon that Lele can actually come on in is Zapdos, since the others either scout with protect, light screen or just status, which is why Specs Lele has never been an issue. I could use a pokemon like Jirachi or Cresselia to deal with it, but they all come with their own issues and can't fully replace the team member. As for Taunt Lele, it certainly does exist, but those Lele usually can't hurt Shedinja as if they run HP Fire, they are fodder for the more common Heatran as it eats Psychics and Moonblast, and so its a set combination I honestly haven't seen once while laddering.

You say that Heracross isn't a problem for most stalls but apart from Clefable which in fairness does deal with Heracross as it can avoid the 2hko, and Clefable is common on stalls (although Pyukumuku and Quagsire seem to be rising for their other perks) nothing else really wants to switch into Close Combat, Pin Missile, Rock Blast or Bullet Seed without fearing the other moves, especially if Heracross is at +2. Pokemon that could outspeed and kill it such as Tornadus-T would die if it attacked at +0, and other pokemon like Mega Slowbro which could tank a hit at +0 wouldn't enjoy a boosted Bullet Seed. But I guess there are other choices like Mega Altaria which has the luxury of not being hit for SE damage and Skarmory which could kill with Brave Bird. So while I still think options to it are limited, I will agree that maybe aren't as limit as I made them sound.

Blacephalon and Sableye it would depend on the match. Most Blacephalon will instantly sub to avoid status by Chansey or any other pokemon before setting up, so in most instances, the Blacephalon player would only get up to +1 on Sableye resulting in far less damage which you can see from the calc below.

+1 20 SpA Blacephalon Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye-Mega through Light Screen: 123-144 (40.5 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Alternatively, Chansey can basically PP Stall Blacephalon, due to screens halving damage and how there is 48PP of them

+6 20 SpA Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey through Light Screen: 178-210 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+6 20 SpA Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Pyukumuku through Light Screen: 50-59 (15.9 - 18.7%) -- possible 6HKO

The other calc just shows that I could pivot between Pyukumuku and Chansey if I wanted to save my PP and forced Blacephalon to only attack due to Taunt to speed up the process. So while making Sableye get heavily damaged is an option, I do have others if I don't want that.

Moving on to the next part, you said that you couldn't see any reasons over 1800s and thats because I mostly private all my matches apart from the rare occasions I forget. I understand that this makes it hard for to find replays, and due to that, I should have posted more in my first post so im sorry for that. On the other hand, if you couldn't find any matches that were less then almost 300 elo lower then some of my alts at the time of peaking, you should have took into consideration that what you were seeing weren't the high level matches.

"You only played around 1800 games, and statistically, that is a tiny sample size which means obviously you wont run into every pokemon, especially when you lost about two 3rds of them on each alt."

Ok so this statement confuses me, where is the 1800 games coming from? because at the time of making this, the OU games played on my alts were 1844, 857 and 610 which brings the total up to about 3200+ games, almost double of what you said. If you mean the elo, then as I said before those replays are private. Also you say I lost about two 3rds of them on each alt? I'm assuming you were considering the replays, and if thats the case, like I said, they aren't lost, just set to private so you can't access them. Tell me what pokemon you want to say me facing at top ladder and I'll hunt down my replays and provide it for you. Also if I lost a ton of my games and still peaked, then my gxe would naturally be much lower as a result, I think being 87.7, 87.9 and 87.9 should show that the team was consistent while ladder, while I agree its still weak evidence. Problem with this is since all my replays are hidden (In addition to me not saving every battle I win as a replay), there is a limit to what I can do. I'll find 10+ of my replays shortly after this post and put them in the bottom of my first one to give people more of an idea of how good the team is, and how I play around pokemon that can be threats such as ZHeatran.

"Every stall team on the planet is trying and succeeding in countering mawile by the way, hence why I said your team seems to be missing a few screws for the current meta. There's a solid 5 or 6 staples that can check it reliably with minor support."

So as far as I know, there are only a few options that can hard counter Mawile, being Rocky Helmet Hippowdon, Mega Aggron and Mega Venusaur (which I can't use because of Mega Sableye) before you get into the extremely niche pokemon like Bulky Volcarona, Intimidate Arcanine that don't have much of a purpose outside of walling Mega Mawile on stall. I think you seriously underestimate just how good of a pokemon Mawile is for breaking stall and it creates alot of pressure whenever its seem on an opponents team. But I feel the real issue is with that statement, and other statements you've made like it, is you always say there are X amount of pokemon that wall Y, but you never specifically state what the pokemon are and thats really unhelpful. Anyone could just come along and say that and it doesn't improve the team at all, as I still don't know what options you were even talking about. So for Manaphy, Heracross and Mega Mawile, I would love to hear your opinion of the plethora of pokemon you feel can easily wall them on stall, Because one of them may be super useful and replace a slot on team, but until then, the same way you couldn't find any of my replays to get a sufficient opinion, I also have nothing to go on with. As for using pokemon that have a niche, its not that im extremely against that (I am using Shedinja), but at least Shedinja has more of a niche then walling literally one pokemon and being deadweight when the opponent doesn't have that pokemon. In Addition most niche pokemon like Volcarona which you mentioned also needs support to even function properly as its weak to Hazards. So yes while Shedinja is a niche pick, it has more of niche then things like Volcarona (on stall obviously, not in general)

To summarise the main points:
Yes Taunt Heatran with Z will be an issue until the Zmove is wasted.
Due to the coverage Tapu Lele has with Taunt, Shedinja should generally hardwall most of them.
My replays are always private unless i forget to /ionext at the start of my match, and so due to this you won't find any of my high level battles there.
Because of that fact, I will post more of my private replays in my initial post.
I want to hear the specific mons you say can easily deal with the threats you said, instead of "5-6 stall mons deal with Mega Mawile"
While I'm not against niche picks, I prefer pokemon with stronger niches then others, rather then using something to deal with one mon and being useless if the opponent doesn't bring the team.

I said it would be a short post but it took way longer then I intended so sorry for that. Thanks for reading this post and the other one before it, and I will be looking forward to your feedback.

 

[Callmeyeshua]

Grats on peak but I tried this team on a alt, it seems super mu dependent. Also z taunt tran 6-0s with relative ease and its not like its a rare set. Every time it comes in it can just take something and its limited counterplay on the team. Modest max sp atk is ran sometimes and a set of Magma/taunt/ep/filler with z firium just runs through this imo. I was having the same exact thoughts as the other breh in here like howd he win regularly with this? Tran is on every other team with that or a similar set. And thats just tran, pair it with like mawile which once again isnt some obsure build and Im really questioning how solid the build is. But you peaked with it so idk, I guess I like to see the w/l ratio.

 

[Archer Kirby]

Grats on peak but I tried this team on a alt, it seems super mu dependent. Also z taunt tran 6-0s with relative ease and its not like its a rare set. Every time it comes in it can just take something and its limited counterplay on the team. Modest max sp atk is ran sometimes and a set of Magma/taunt/ep/filler with z firium just runs through this imo. I was having the same exact thoughts as the other breh in here like howd he win regularly with this? Tran is on every other team with that or a similar set. And thats just tran, pair it with like mawile which once again isnt some obsure build and Im really questioning how solid the build is. But you peaked with it so idk, I guess I like to see the w/l ratio.

I never have and never will reset the W/L ratio on any of my alts, so if you were really curious you could just check those unless there is a way to check WL within a specific date that i'm unaware off? Also Taunt Ztran does have to be played around, but its honestly less of an issue compared to Lefties as I have to deal with that all game due to it constantly getting recovery. Sableye's main job is on dealing with tran and preventing hazards. If Sableye died to tran's Zmove then I at least know what the Zmove pokemon is, and even then if i knew it was Z from any damage (as it wouldn't show lefties) or from the spa investment alone, I would normally just go to Chansey as seismic kills heatran in 4 hits, 3 if heatran took any damage.

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Heatran: 100-100 (30.9 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Now considering Heatran has to waste 1 of those turns Taunting to make sure I can't set up screens or heal, and potentially another turn if Heatran is the mon with SR as shedinja could wall other team members. Chansey should always be able to outpace taunt Heatran, and while cCansey may be around 30% when Heatran dies, thanks to the nature of the team such as Pyukumuku running block, its possible for Chansey to get in and heal despite being low. In terms of Heatran + Mawile, Mawile is a tremendous stall breaker in its own right and Mawile + Anything would be almost as bad for my team.

That said i am genuinely surprised that people are having so much issues with Heatran, as whenever I see one, I just play cautiously around it such as setting screens as much as possible and abusing protect + recover on Sableye to create mindgames for the opponent as if they wasted their Z and Sableye is still alive, that prevents Heatran being a problem for the rest of the game. That said I'll look into improvements for dealing with tran better on this team and get back to everyone when i find something.

 

[Umlaug]

Hello again, I love your points and we seem to have reached a decent consensus and I've learned a lot about you as a player.

So I don't want to raise anything new now because I'm happy with where this has gone, but just to briefly go over Shedinja's viability I want to say that my final opinion is that it's still barely viable, and just slightly not enough to be worth using (imo), but this team has made good advancements to hazard control in stall and that's one thing that allows Shedinja to shine beyond itself.

I wont cover everything in your retort because this has reached a nice place imo, but i'm just gonna give you more ideas for future stalls you might make...

Ferrothorn's place on stall, as someone who uses it a whole lot, is underrated. Leech seed is actually more of a supportive move, where calm minders like latias can be seeded and then beaten by other teammates, and on top of performing the role of hazards and set up prevention, it also does a lot more than just its niche by tanking certain greninja sets and beating gyarados, certainly a nice thing to have as a role compressor on stall. I think you ought to try it one day.

You left out aggron and steelix (which also beats tapu koko) as mawile counters, which obviously need tons of support but make up for it by providing stealth rock and checking most offensive stealth rockers with avalanche (steelix doesn't do this but it has a better matchup against mawile). Also worth trying but ive never had much fun with them personally.

All in all this was productive, and hopefully shedinja will have more of a niche in the future because it really is a unique pokemon.