Proposal Remove Sleep Clause Mod from all Official SV Metagames

UT

I’m drunk in the back of the car
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Team Rateris a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Appeals + C&C Lead
I will keep this short: Standard clauses should be updated to include Sleep Moves Clause, and all official SV metagames should drop Sleep Clause Mod. Sleep Clause Mod is the only battle mechanics mod used in modern gens and should be fully abolished, both for consistency within our official tiers and consistency with how we don’t do non-QoL mods. I believe this affects LC, Mono, and Ubers.

I am told that between Miraidon and sleep users being bad, Sleep Moves Clause may be unnecessary in Ubers and unrestricted sleep could be fine. I have no dog in that fight, whatever the council / player base wants between those two options is great, just stop using the mod.

Just to get ahead of it, no this should not be unilaterally applied to oldgens. They should be free to keep using the mod as-is, and only if their individual councils / player bases want to drop it should it be considered.
 

UT

I’m drunk in the back of the car
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Team Rateris a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Appeals + C&C Lead
Prior it was fringe cases like relic song or Nature power/secret power (i dont remember which 1 lol) that messed with the validity of sleep clause mod being possible on cart
This is not true by the way. Even without those moves Sleep Clause Mod is not cart accurate since it causes sleep moves to straight-up fail, which does not happen on cart. This has implications for PP stalling, trying to sleep the target immediately after waking, and niche stuff like doubling Stomping Tantrum that are not possible on cart.
 

Karxrida

Eventide (art by @kzhjp)
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
As generations continue to become more complex in how sleep is implemented (EX: Dire Claw 50% sleep), I think now and likely further is a good idea to swap out the sleep clause mod for sleep moves clause. Prior it was fringe cases like relic song or Nature power/secret power (i dont remember which 1 lol) that messed with the validity of sleep clause mod being possible on cart, but Dire Claw really does put it into further question. A 50% sleep inflicting move thats a good move to begin with on a good pokemon, is just going to mess with the sleep clause mod validity way more than the other 2 moves ever could. That's all I'll say on this but yeah, as someone who had played OU it was kind of awkward when Sneasler was legal and you kinda had to hope sleep clause mod didn't activate on your 50% status.
Dire Claw's chance to actually inflict sleep is about 17%, not 50%. It is still problematic because it is one of the only damaging moves to cause sleep and excessively random in nature, but please don't spread major misinformation like that.

(Secret Power was only able to inflict sleep during PVP in Battle Revolution and maybe-possibly the Orre games due to how it works, as it otherwise defaults to a chance to Paralyze in main series titles. This is kind of neat trivia but ultimately irrelevant because we don't use those spinoff games as the basis for our primary formats.)

Regardless, I agree with UT. There is no reason any official current gen formats should keep Sleep Clause Mod after OU axed it.
 

Éric

mons is mons
is a Pre-Contributor
Just to get ahead of it, no this should not be unilaterally applied to oldgens. They should be free to keep using the mod as-is, and only if their individual councils / player bases want to drop it should it be considered.
and why do they get to keep ridiculous clauses but we don’t? this seems arbitrary at best and elitist at worst. i agree modding the game is extremely stupid but it is what we have and have had for years, we like our metagames currently and don’t feel the need to change it just bc ou did. if we actually needed to do it, i don’t see a single reason for oldgens not to do it as well
 

Bobsican

NatDex Ubers TL
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
and why do they get to keep ridiculous clauses but we don’t? this seems arbitrary at best and elitist at worst. i agree modding the game is extremely stupid but it is what we have and have had for years, we like our metagames currently and don’t feel the need to change it just bc ou did. if we actually needed to do it, i don’t see a single reason for oldgens not to do it as well
Because old generations are intended to remain within the appeal of their respective userbase, doing any changes will change their status quo and alienize their entire fanbase, which isn't as affordable compared to formats within a current generation, same way modern tiering policy doesn't apply to ban Snorlax from GSC OU, ban weather setting abilities from BW OU, or banning Baton Pass in old generations.
 

Éric

mons is mons
is a Pre-Contributor
doing any changes will change their status quo and alienize their entire fanbase, which isn't as affordable compared to formats within a current generation
this is so silly, oldgens ban stuff all the time and no one gets alienated (sand veil and bp in adv, arena trap and shadow tag in dpp, bw and oras, latias unban in dpp, cloyster and gems gone in bw, SLEEP IN BW). these tiers change identity constantly because that's what the playerbase wants, right? and yes, they also do less bans, because again, that's what the playerbase wants. if that makes sense, why is "consistency across tiers" an argument to ban an element of a tier you don't play when its playerbase does not want it that way? that's quite hypocrytical. just let the players decide on something this big, not pr randoms.
this will be my last post on the matter i dont wanna derail it way too much
 

TTK

Demonic Emperor
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Hello.

As a pretty active player in the Monotype community who does have some thoughts regarding sleep in this tier, I thought I'd just say my piece regarding this proposal of dropping Sleep Clause Mod in Official Metagames, which Monotype falls under.

I first made a post of sleep in the Monotype Metagame Discussion thread here on Feb 27. I did not go into depth since it was mainly a post of mine to discuss the mons we needed gone at the time but I had found sleep to be an annoying presence to face against and I didn't feel particularly skillful when using it myself. I was following OU's steps of attempting things like Lead Darkrai on Mono Dark with Hypnosis and fitting Hypnosis on Iron Valiant on Fairy and Fighting teams as well. The conversation didn't get going but the one opposition I was met with was "tldr para is worse than sleep".

Jump to a month later, and this is where some actual discussion occurred regarding sleep. User mushamu posted here on March 24 suggesting sleep should be gone from SV Mono and all generations but the former part of the argument is more relevant here. The opinion of the playerbase in the thread to sleep was leaning towards leaving it alone but there were some players believing sleep should go as well, if you go on to read pages 10 and 11. The conversation seemed to die down when tier leader maroon posted here saying some reasonings as to why Monotype's case with sleep is fundamentally different to OU and there also needs to be a "high burden of proof" to change mechanics in the tier, which isn't present. Furthermore, maroon stated that we had more important things to deal with, which was somewhat true. We have banned Ursaluna-B and Chien-Pao from when that post was made, which has made significant changes to the metagame.

From this reception of sleep from a few months ago, I do not believe the Monotype community will be particularly thrilled if this proposal goes through. If you go through our discussion thread, there is opposition to the tier just following what OU does. Example of this is a post from user ArkenCiel, where he states:
"I also want to add on that comparisons to OU don't even make sense when you consider the fact it is a different tier altogether. We can't constantly switch back and forth between "we're different tiers so we tier differently" and "OU did something right, let's do that too" whenever it's convenient to the case we're trying to make (insert Gouging Fire joke here). That decision by the OU council is received differently by the people, so their sacred ruling isn't really anything of note. What some may see as a progressive move, many others look to as a complete joke and a total failure by those shepherding the tier."

Something I feel like I have to say is that Monotype is different from usage-based tiering. We have to use teams where each member share a type with one another, restricting us in the sense that the sort of teams you see, not every team is capable of running sleep. Only 6 of the 18 types can run Spore for example. Even if the other sleep inducing moves (Hypnosis, Sleep Powder, Sing) allow more than 6 types to utilise sleep, you still have to take into account that some of those mons simply suck in our metagame and they'll never see usage since you want to use the best mons of a particular typing when building or the type already has better ways of sleeping (Grass has Spore mons vs Sleep Powder). Some players feel like getting rid of sleep pretty much would shut down Grass, removing a notable option for them that can be unique to them. Poison would also lose Amoonguss Spore which can apply a lot of pressure for a type that isn't particularly offensive a lot of the time.


Even with these points that were made in our discussion thread, my stance has not changed. I still would like to see sleep banned in Monotype. I made a longer post here outlining similar reasonings for OU getting sleep banned and I was simply not moved by the other side of the argument. What I would suggest is that the Monotype community should handle sleep themselves without Tiering Admins getting involved, as I guess they would if this proposal is accepted. This will be a controversial idea for our playerbase and though I do understand for consistency's sake, every main tier should stop using the mod, it should be a case by case basis which takes the metagames into account to see if this is actually a necessary decision. I want sleep gone, but I've been fine playing the metagame for the past 3 months. Maybe this highlights the lower impact it has on our tier, who knows?
 

chaos

is a Site Content Manageris a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Programmeris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Administratoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnus
Owner
It's perfectly fine to limit the scope of proposed actions so-as to avoid contentious debate. The goal of PR is to come to conclusions about things and have them implemented, not to spin ones wheels arguing. If there is appetite for extending this to older generations it could be handled in a subsequent topic.
 

BigFatMantis

is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
UUPL Champion
The issue of Sleep Clause is kind of whatever, but I am a bit concerned with the reach of this proposal. Ubers and LC (and Monotype) have historically not been affected by things OU decides to do, and I think it should stay that way. If Ubers wants to eliminate Sleep Clause in favor of Sleep Moves Clause, like OU, then they should be able to do so per those in that community. But I don’t like the idea that, just because OU did it, it now has to be the same across the board for non-usage tiers. I don’t think there is anything wrong with these communities wanting to keep Sleep Clause for generation 9 considering it’s a clause that has been historically implemented in all Smogon metagames until very recently. They are not usage based tiers and, while official, should not be required to follow the same rulesets as OU unless that’s what those within those communities deem best.

If all three of these communities choose to follow this proposal I think that’s fine, but I am concerned about the implications of forcing it upon them and how that will affect tiering for these communities moving forward in all generations.
 

Clas

pixibursting
is a Tiering Contributor
I'm too tired to make a full post, but just let the respective communities choose over forcing a policy that doesn't even cover gens with SCM that don't have it natively built in (6-8, 5 alr has SMC). If a meta's playerbase want SCM then let them keep it, if they want SMC then let them have that. It should not be on a small subset of people to make such a decision.
 
It should definitely be up to their respective tiers to decide whether or not they keep Sleep Clause Mod, and I agree with BigFatMantis that there isn't anything wrong them keeping Sleep Clause Mod on said tiers. Also, I don't like the idea of forcing these tiers to used Sleep Move Clause instead of Sleep Clause just because you seem to have a massive hatred on that mod

Just my personal opinion, and i don't hate people that want Sleep Moves Clause, and I respected them that they want it over Sleep Clause. You can hate on Sleep Clause Mod, but i absolutely despise banning Sleep with a main reasoning being "I hate Sleep Clause Mod". I would rather have "OU banned Sleep because Sleep Powder Jumpluff or Sing Jigglypuff is broken or uncompetitive there" as a reasoning behind shifting to using Sleep Move Clause instead of Sleep Clause than saying "OU now uses Sleep Move Clause because we hated Sleep Clause as a mod" or something involving hating that mod
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top