Removing/Fixing outdated clauses

[RBG]

Shoddy's goal is to implement Link Battles as best possible. Currently, two of the most commonly used clauses prevent this from being as real as it gets. I am referring to Sleep Clause and Freeze Clause. Now Freeze clause is a relic of RBY when Freeze was game breaking. As it is now, Freeze Clause exists, it is impossible to happen on wifi battles. I propose that we remove Freeze Clause from all ladder battles in order to emulate Link Battles as closely as possible.

Now sleep clause is different. On shoddy, if you break sleep clause, the move will just fail. In Link Battles, however, there is an honor system where people do not put a second pokemon to sleep. Ideally, Sleep Clause would be programmed so that if you willingly put a second pokemon to sleep, then you lose. Of course, this would not include Rest, but cases besides that (effect spore, magic coat, encored sleep moves) would have to be decided on a case by case basis. now thankfully:

[10:49am] RB-Golbat: how is sleep clause in SB2
[10:50am] Colin: I haven't decided the best way to do it yet but by "I" I don't mean I intend to come up with it myself.
[10:56am] Colin: "classic" sleep clause will be in shoddy battle 2, I just don't think we should actually use it on the ladder (or in tournaments etc.)

Sleep Clause as it should be (i.e. You lose if you willingly put two pokemon sleep), can be programmed into shoddy 2. So my second Proposal is Sleep Clause needs to be fixed to be more accurate to Link Battles.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Interesting view on things... I normally don't do this, but I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate here.

I think it would be best to just keep clauses the way they are though. PBR battling allows us to enforce them, but without the alt forms and such.

Programming it in that it would be a loss for the player would be extremely tough. I could technically spam STalk Psycho Shift Cresselia and say that I'm trying to hit you with Cress' offensive move.

Or I could say that I really had no other choice, but to leave my Choice Scarf Darkrai in Stuck using Dark Void because I could say I expected you to send in a pokemon with Insomnia... (I know this is pretty much a bullcrap example, but you'd need to program it for a case by case basis.)

In the event where two pokes are forced asleep and the match isn't forfeited I know its a courtesy to wait until you wake up or something on WiFi, but will players always share that same courtesy on SB2?

RBY's Freeze was broken, but back then they did not have abilities such as Serene Grace, which makes freeze hax occur on a 20% basis... Needless to say that would potentially make something like Jirachi's normal counters not even want to switch-in due to that 20% chance of getting frozen and potentially losing. Losing the ability to do anything for a couple turns in a fairly offensive metagame means it could be pretty much an automatic loss.

Its a noble idea, but it has some really weird exceptions some people will try to exploit. So, in the long run I think it'd be more pain than what it'd be worth.

 

[imperfectluck]

What if my Breloom runs out of all other PP for its attacks besides Spore? What if I accidentally misclick? I'd rather have shoddy 1's system in which sleep automatically fails.

 

[RBG]

It's not a matter of which system is better. It's a matter of which system is more accurate to what are trying to simulate.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

@MTI:

That's bullshit and you know it.

This isn't "fairness" here. This is "can we do this on the cartridge". And the answer is no. When you play from cartridge to cartridge, it doesn't matter if you "meant" to sleep him or something. What matters is that you did. On cartridge, you can't enforce Freeze clause or Sleep Clause outside of making people lose as a result of it.

Freeze Clause only stems from RBY where Freeze was permanent and resulted in anything frozen becoming absolute death fodder. Think of Freeze in RBY as a chance to OHKO on top of whatever damage you were doing with Blizzard/Ice Beam.

In the end, this isn't about what's "fair". It's about what's possible. If Shoddy Battle 2 is to be an accurate replication of cartridge play, we can't just make up rules that can't be enforced on cartridges. It's the same reason that Evasion Clause doesn't remove Sand Veil's effect. You simply can't do it. Who cares how much of a "punishment" it is? It's the only way to implement it while staying true to the cartridges.

Also, about this:

PBR battling allows us to enforce them, but without the alt forms and such.

Advocating this means that you would suggest that Alternate Forms should not be allowed on the ladder. Is this what you mean? Because if not, it is an indefensible stance.

 

[haunter]

I remember a similar issue about the Platinum weather glitch. I honestly see no reasons to abandon the current sleep\freeze clause as, competitively-wise, they're largely preferable. And MTI's and IPL's points are absolutely sharable, what happens if the mentioned scarf-Darkrai gets trapped by a mean look-baton pass smeargle? Am I forced to lose just because of that?

The question is: do we want to be more accurate to link battles, or do we want to be consistent with our purpose, as a community "specializing in the art of competitive battling"? I don't see anything competitive into allowing hax from moves like ice beam or ice punch to shape the result of a battle, but maybe it's just me.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I know my examples are pretty much bull, but can you exactly say what's on my mind in a specific battle with thousands of variables? What if I said that I wanted to have Cress attack through a Sleep Talk? Or... if I thought you would switch to a Dragon and I had my Jirachi spam Ice Punch... There's no way that you can prove that I did not want that at all. There will be people who abuse it and there won't be anything we could really do about it, but scramble around constantly changing the rules due to case-by-case situations. We do have rules for the sake of fairness ex. Evasion Clause.

I really don't think it would go over very well with the players if we did this. Everyone is used to the way we have been doing it since the days of NetBattle and Smogon has been built with such clauses in mind and probably is one of the reasons why the Smogon servers have been so popular over several years. We did not have a problem such as this during previous gens... You've got to admit though that the way the clauses are treated on Shoddy currently probably allows for greater competitiveness than if we changed according to the proposed changes.

Edit: Also agreeing with Haunter.

I advocate those auto-enforced clauses, but I like being able to use the alt forms. Its just a dilemma without a happy solution if we want to be more accurate to Wireless battles... Which I will admit the proposed changes allows for more accuracy to Wireless.

 

[RBG]

The question is: do we want to be more accurate to link battles, or do we want to be consistent with our purpose, as a community "specializing in the art of competitive battling"? I don't see anything competitive into allowing hax from moves like ice beam or ice punch to shape the result of a battle, but maybe it's just me.

Is their any reason that we are unable to do both? I would like to have Shoddy 2 be as close to possible as wireless, since that is the whole point of it. Freeze happens so rarely anyways, so I don't see why we even need to keep that clause. And since ColinJF* has not programmed Sleep Clause yet, I figure it would be a good time to figure out a)If people want to change it, and b)What exactly "breaks" Sleep Clause (i.e. Using it twice, encored sleep move, no pp, magic coat, effect spore, psycho shift ect...)

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I again apologize for giving you a hard time with this RB Golbat, but if you're trying to program out these special occurrences you might as well just enforce the current Sleep Clause.

Things that can force Sleep and potentially break Sleep Clause: Choice Items, Encore, Psycho Shift in conjunction with Sleep Talk, Metronome, Assist, Imprison, Mirror Move, Mimic, Sketch, Heal Block, Magic Coat, Copycat, Torment, Transform, no PP, other Sleep inducing moves with Sleep Talk, Trace used on Effect Spore, Trapping, Effect Spore, prediction (ex. expecting someone to wake up on that turn and then you fire off a Sleeping move) and probably other things I'm forgetting.

Freeze is rare, but without a Freeze Clause it is potentially very crippling. If for some reason two or more pokés were frozen in top level play that could pretty much be game right there. For that reason I don't see why you would not want to try to abuse it if you had the option available. Suddenly everyone using Ice Punch Jirachi doesn't seem like a bad idea.

 

[Aldaron]

What if my Breloom runs out of all other PP for its attacks besides Spore? What if I accidentally misclick? I'd rather have shoddy 1's system in which sleep automatically fails.

In the first case, if Breloom is your last Pokemon and it has run out of all other pp, Sleep Clause shouldn't apply. In the second case, if you "misclick" ...tough shit, you lose.

 

[Philip7086]

I might have to check again, but I could have sworn there was a Freeze Clause option on PBR. Would that help ease anyone's mind in terms of allowing Freeze Clause to be activated on SB2's ladder? I mean, I know it's not a main Pokemon title, but it was created with the intention of promoting Pokemon battling...

Edit: As far as correctly implementing Sleep Clause, I'm all for it. It would also add another element to the game in terms of prediction and tricking. For instance, you should no longer be able to feel safe spamming Sleep Powder on Blissey, assuming they will switch out, because if Blissey has Serene Grace, and you put the incoming Pokemon to sleep, then you forfeit the match. I think that is a vital part of the game that has been overlooked until now.

Also, I wanted to bring up that Freeze Clause could be implemented in the same manor if you want. In other words, if you freeze more than one of your opponent's Pokemon, then you forfeit the match. There will probably be no support for this option though, lol.

 

[RBG]

I might have to check again, but I could have sworn there was a Freeze Clause option on PBR. Would that help ease anyone's mind in terms of allowing Freeze Clause to be activated on SB2's ladder? I mean, I know it's not a main Pokemon title, but it was created with the intention of promoting Pokemon battling...

This has been brought up, but the main qualm is the lack of alternate forme when using PBR, not to mention that it has other funky rules and game mechanics

 

[Sapientia]

If we want to simulate wifi battle, we would have to make them fucking slow, dissallow the battle log, remove the percentages of the pp, remove the chat, remove the possibility to watch battles, remove the possibilty to see the already used pokemon, their status and if there are any spikes in the game...
That are all things, no one wants. We don't need to make the game worse, just to be more like wifi battles
Also this makes battles way more complicatet and frustrates the player who uses accidently a sleep move twice, what is possible. I think if you want to put more then one pokemon asleep you losing one turn is enough "punishment" in such an offensive metagame.
Also you have to think about stallwars. If you need to stall a pokemon out and one other of your opponents pokemon is already asleep you have to use your sleep move as the last move, so you have to waste your attacking moves, what makes you lose for sure

 

[RBG]

Obviously you are taking things to their illogical extreme, since I doubt ColinJF* wants to program move animations. Let me restate what is meant since you take things literally. Shoddy is supposed to be Wireless Battles with convince. There should be no additions or subtractions to what is being done. And in fact, you can see if your opponent has a status on wireless. As long as all the battle mechanics work perfectly like they would on wireless, then why can't we add those small extras?


[2:31pm] RB-Golbat: colin, is the percent thing being fixed in shoddy 2?
[2:31pm] Colin: what "percent thing"
[2:32pm] RB-Golbat: like, instead of showing how much percent the opponent has, it will show what they have out of 48
[2:32pm] Colin: I thought I was pretty clear that those correct mechanics have been implemented.
[2:33pm] Colin: you can view the health before out of 48 and as a percent, but if you view it as a percent, it's merely the fraction out of 48 as a percent
[2:33pm] Colin: *both out of 48

[2:34pm] Colin: also
[2:34pm] Colin: you can review that the correct weather mechanics are in as well

ColinJF* has done everything possible to make Shoddy 2 simulate Wireless battles perfectly, and the last step is making sure we implement these clauses correctly.

 

[Cathy]

I don't consider the graphical visualisation to be part of the game mechanics by the way. The part I consider part of the mechanics is the information conveyed by the graphics. For example, the only cue (aside from the turn order) that Quick Claw activated is an animation in the game, so in shoddy battle 2, there will be a log message saying "Quick Claw activated!" even though there isn't one in game: the idea is that the information being conveyed is what has to be simulated.

 

[RBG]

OK so I am attempting to write out a hard definition for Sleep Clause.

A user breaks sleep clause when they choose a move that they knew had a chance to put a second Pokémon to sleep on the opposing team as a result of only factors on your team, and it successfully puts the opponent to sleep unless they had no other options, not counting Pokémon that used Rest.

Does it break sleep clause?

Encored Sleep Move: No
Effect Spore: No
Magic Coat: No
Sleep Talk (covers Psycho Shift): Yes
Assist: Yes
Metronome: Yes

Are their any problems with this rule?

 

[lilyhollow]

That definition seems fine, though I could see some potential contention surrounding Effect Spore I guess, because you can still make decisions with the express intent of hopefully putting a second opponent to sleep. I don't actually care personally about this though, so whatever.

As for whether we should change Sleep Clause in the first place, and/or get rid of Freeze Clause, it seems extremely straightforward to me. We should obviously simulate things accurately and Freeze Clause has been outdated forever.

Freeze is rare, but without a Freeze Clause it is potentially very crippling. If for some reason two or more pokés were frozen in top level play that could pretty much be game right there.

so do you support a "Critical Hit Clause," too?

 

[Hipmonlee]

I agree with all of this.

Traditionally if your last pokemon was forced to break sleep clause because of pp you would lose. It happened a few times with megadrain exeggutors against starmies without blizzard in rby battles I remember.

However this suggests that if by some elaborate means I trapped you and encored you into a sleep move and then switched after you slept my first pokemon you could lose the game immediately. This is an extraordinarily unlikely circumstance however. A lum berry Wobbuffet could do the trick..

Also traditionally secret power sleep would not break sleep clause, but I dont even know if that is possible any more (or was legitimately possible at any time).

Have a nice day.

 

[Philip7086]

To be honest, if Sleep Clause were to be implemented correctly, I do not think there should be any exceptions to the rule. This means that attempting to Encore a sleep move, or any other strategy trying to force your opponent to forfeit should be considered a viable strategy. It is very situational anyways, and not easy to pull off at all. I mean think about it, in order to do something like Encore a sleep move, you have to equip your Pokemon with a status healing berry, or else you cannot Encore the attack. If they put you to sleep, and you switch out, then you cannot Encore their sleep move, because they will have used a different move on the turn that you switched. Even if you do somehow get your sleep move Encored, you can always switch out on the next turn so that you don't break Sleep Clause. The only potential problem with this that I can see, is if Wobuffett Encores your sleep move in Ubers. Though, to be honest, it is up to the user to be aware that Wob may Encore your missed Dark Void, so you should choose your move wisely. As for things like Effect Spore, only two fully evolved Pokemon get that ability, and they both have other options to choose from. If you purposefully select that ability, you should know that there could be possible consequences. And finally for Magic Coat: if you put a Pokemon to sleep already, and you are about to use Magic Coat on someone, you should take a second to think if the opposing Pokemon can learn a sleep inducing move and choose your attack carefully. It's all part of strategy and knowing what your opponents can do. I see no need for a list of exceptions.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Also traditionally secret power sleep would not break sleep clause, but I dont even know if that is possible any more (or was legitimately possible at any time).

Since Shoddy emulates Wi-Fi battles, and all Wi-Fi battles occur in the Building area, Secret Power cannot inflict Sleep, only Paralysis.

Anyway, I agree with Philip wholeheartedly. It's your responsibility to make sure that you don't put two things to sleep at the same time. That means being careful with stuff like Effect Spore, Psycho Shift STalk Cresselia, Choice Scarf Sleepers, etc. "But it's haaaard to do this in battle!" Boo hoo. Figure out how not to break Sleep Clause.

As for Freeze Clause, it stems from the RBY infinite freeze. Since Freeze now simply wears off, and there is no way to intentionally inflict it like there is for Sleep, keeping it around seems foolish and unnecessary.

 

[RBG]

[8:19pm] reachzero: choiced sleep would be extremely risky
[8:19pm] reachzero: Wobbuffet switches into scarfrai, takes Dark Void and sleeps
[8:19pm] RB-Golbat: yeah
[8:19pm] reachzero: Then switches out....
[8:20pm] reachzero: The same could be said of Dugtrio with lead Scarf Breloom or Smeargle in OU

So you are saying in these circumstances, the scarf user would lose?

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

It still seems like figuring out each individual thing is too much of a hassle compared to just enforcing something we've been used to for half a decade or so...

We're Smogon, the premier competitive community of pokémon and it seems silly that we have to adopt rules such as these because of a few forms not allowed on PBR.

Also let's say theoretically a trapper traps and then Encores a sleeping move somehow. Or something like Tricking a Scarf to Roserade that gets stuck using Sleep Powder and then switching to Dugtrio... Well you get the idea and the team with the Scarfed Sleep Powereing Roserade will lose (75%) of the time that happens.

Another more practical way to force a win is using Cleric to bait the choiced sleeper out and if you go to a trapper let it get put to sleep and then switch to another poke that isn't asleep... And then the team with the sleeper loses and no damage has to even be exchanged between the two teams.

Other examples include Choice Scarf Dark Void Darkrai, Choiced Hypnosis Bronzong, etc. if someone switches to a trapper when the Sleep move is flung about... The Sleeper's team automatically loses should their opponent let another 'mon fall asleep due to switching in.

Another way is by using a bulky Trapper and Taunting and stalling to the point where only the Sleep move's PP is left.

Smeargle @ Lum/Chesto Berry vs... something that's going to put it to sleep. Include a trapping move, Encore, and let it do its dirty work...

A number of pokémon got Block in HG/SS, so that in conjunction with these sleepers will mean that pretty much all Sleepers have a chance of getting trapped and automatically losing if somehow forced to use a Sleeping move. Doesn't that greatly discourage the use of putting something to Sleep in general?

Knowing how many teams are built to win at all costs people will try to undoubtedly abuse this and it will be nearly impossible to address every issue in a case by case manner.

By changing the way Sleep Clause works the Sleep status is discouraged due to automatic loss technicalities. That's going to change the metagame... Wouldn't it be easier just to keep Sleep Clause as is instead of opening it up to all of this?

@ Blame Game - Freeze and Crits are two entirely different things.

Freezing ensures that your pokémon cannot really do anything along with taking damage from a hit and there is no direct way to deal with freezing other than Flame Wheel, Sacred Fire, Natural Cure, being an Ice-type, using Heal Bell/Aromatherapy, etc. Criticals hit harder, but it doesn't afflict them with a certain status and can be healed off by recovery moves presuming the pokemon isn't killed.

Furthermore, the critical rate for most moves is 1/16, but pokémon with Serene Grace and most freezing moves have a 20% chance of freezing. With Dragons being so common you could have a Serene Grace 'mon (ab)using trying to inflict Freeze Hax.

For trying to take advantage of both Clause changes you could use a Serene Grace Blissey with Ice Beam...

C'mon guys this is just... ridiculous. At least could we have a vote or something first?

And if these Clauses do get changed in SB2... If Nintendo made a new game that allowed usage of all the different forms to do battle wirelessly and allowed the normal Sleep and Freeze Clauses to be in effect would we switch back to the way both Clauses are being handled right now?

 

[Hipmonlee]

Also let's say theoretically a trapper traps and then Encores a sleeping move somehow. Or something like Tricking a Scarf to Roserade that gets stuck using Sleep Powder and then switching to Dugtrio... Well you get the idea and the team with the Scarfed Sleep Powereing Roserade will lose (75%) of the time that happens.

Only if they sleep powder after being tricked. You would have to trick the scarf with the pokemon doing the trapping, which is impossible, or the player has left themselves open to this risk.

[edit] - ok if someone trapped you with umbreon, then baton passed to a pokemon with trick, and you used sleep powder against the tricker then yes this would be possible. I dont think its going to come up very often though.

Another more practical way to force a win is using Cleric to bait the choiced sleeper out and if you go to a trapper let it get put to sleep and then switch to another poke that isn't asleep... And then the team with the sleeper loses and no damage has to even be exchanged between the two teams.

This still requires a person to have a choiced sleeper and for them to use a sleep move with it. You could take the risk, and I could imagine it happening sometimes, but you would have to accept the loss with it..

We're Smogon, the premier competitive community of pokémon and it seems silly that we have to adopt rules such as these because of a few forms not allowed on PBR.

Well the other option is just to play by PBR rules. We are the premier competitive community of pokemon. Not the premier competitive community of what we would have liked pokemon to have been.

And if these Clauses do get changed in SB2... If Nintendo made a new game that allowed usage of all the different forms to do battle wirelessly and allowed the normal Sleep and Freeze Clauses to be in effect would we switch back to the way both Clauses are being handled right now?

Probably. We have switched clauses before, Bots had clauses like what we are suggesting and NB had clauses like what we currently have. It wasnt too complicated..

Have a nice day.

 

[Philip7086]

A number of pokémon got Block in HG/SS, so that in conjunction with these sleepers will mean that pretty much all Sleepers have a chance of getting trapped and automatically losing if somehow forced to use a Sleeping move. Doesn't that greatly discourage the use of putting something to Sleep in general?

You seem to be in the mindset of the current style of Shoddy play, which is inherently wrong. The whole point is that all the things you mentioned should have been risky strategies to begin with, and have been abused freely for long enough. Also, realize that no matter how you look at it, it is your own fault if you break the sleep clause. If you choose to use a choiced sleeper, then you run the risk of being trapped into breaking Sleep Clause. So Scarf Darkrai becomes a huge liability in Ubers now because of Wobuffett. Just don't use Scarf Darkrai to begin with. So someone tricks a choice item onto a sleep inducing Pokemon. Just don't use the sleep move and risk it. Keep in mind that if someone is running a Smeargle like you mentioned (ignoring the fact that Smeargle is fragile and will have a ridiculously hard time pulling the strategy off), then they are wasting a whole slot on their team, should their opponent not run any sleeping moves. If they think it's worth it, then it's your job not to fall for their tricks.

 

[imperfectluck]

I disagree with having to change Sleep Clause. Why add in a needlessly confusing system? Why change what works? We use the honor system on wifi for Sleep Clause, that is a rule we made ourselves, why can't we change a rule we made ourselves to reflect that for Shoddy? That's not 'mimicking the natural state of wifi' at all. If you want to mimic wifi and Nintendo tournaments, play without Sleep Clause.