Research Group Mk. II #6 - Tornadus, Virizion, Mew, Meloetta

[Nas]

OU Dropouts? Fuck yes.

Past Research Group Mk I threads:

#1 | #2 | #3 | #4 | #5 | #6


Past Research Group Mk II threads:

#1 | #2 | #3 | #4 | #5


Keep the following things in mind during every Research Group:

• Be open-minded, don't just say something is terrible and walk away; look at its stats, movepool, and typing and think something up!
• Feel free to theorymon early in the research period, but make it clear you're doing so. Later in the period though, you will be expected to back up your posts with hard evidence like logs, actual sets, perhaps even teams.
• Just because an analysis has been done for a Pokemon doesn't mean there isn't more to explore; it's very likely that something has gone unnoticed.
• Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon I choose and/or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. Feel free to VM / PM me these suggestions, but don't expect me to always listen to you.

This Week's Research Pokemon:

Tornadus | Virizion | Mew | Meloetta​

How useful are these Pokemon in UU? What sets can they run effectively? What gives them trouble? What advantages do they have over other Pokemon? How well do they work in the metagame? If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! It doesn't matter if you've used them or have just faced them in battle, anything is fine (but please, do try them). Just be sure to back up your posts with good competitive reasoning. Remember, discussion is not limited to this topic, you are encouraged to talk about these Pokemon in #genvuu as well!

The Research Group Challenge:

In order to participate you must do the following:

• Send me a PM / post here or on IRC with a fresh alt and the name(s) of the Pokemon you will be using.
• Use at least one of the Pokemon being researched.
• Post your experiences with the Pokemon you're using, participate in the discussion!

The first stage of the challenge will be very relaxed so theorymon will be allowed as long as its backed up by good reasoning. During the later stage, discussion will be expected to be backed up by hard evidence, such as teams, actual sets, and logs. The winner of the challenge will be the person who has the highest ladder ranking on the Pokemon Showdown UU ladder on the alt they registered at the time the challenge ends. If you win, you will receive temporary hops on #genvuu, but you may only claim your prize if you actually participated in the discussion!

Current Participants:

Forum Name - Ladder Alt

Rawbi - Cain's Eye
Pokemazter - Acronadus
Lord Alpaca - LordLickilicky
Trollfreak - Expedition
Classical - Classical
TP03 - Frozen Tundra
Superbadd - Wafflecone
neoswordmaster - Dr. Wily
TheStarRapper - Yellow-Purple

 

[Rawbi]

Somehow I knew it'd be these fellows!

I want to try all of them. Are they ladder legal yet?

Alt: Cain's Eye

 

[Mazz]

In. So in. Definitely in.

Alt: Acronadus

 

[LordAlpaca]

In. From my experience on my main account, while Tornadus is great and Virizion is good, the star of the show is Meloetta. She tears apart teams simply by spamming Relic Song, as it deals hefty chunks while putting would-be counters at risk or to sleep.

Alt: LordLickilicky

 

[TrollFreak]

Using Virizion for obvious reasons

Alt: Expedition

 

[Classical]

Using Mew + Melotta
Classical

 

[TPO3]

Spamming Mew until it gets the fuck out.

alt: Frozen Tundra

 

[Zarco]

Excited about these 4 a whole lot.

 

[superbadd]

I'll try meloetta

alt: wafflecone

 

[Rawbi]

I'm trying CM Virizion right now, and so far it's ass. Relying on Focus Miss is awful. It doesn't hit hard enough right off the bat, and I'm finding it hard to get the opportunities to net a CM before Darmanitan/Crobat/Zapdos/etc. come charging in.

Switching to SD Virizion. Maybe I'll try a specially bulky one too.

Also I have a ~1650 rating and I can't see myself on the UU ladder. Am I doing it wrong?

 

[neoswordmaster]

I'll try Mew, Virizion, and maybe Tornadus.

I expect to see Mew everywhere.

Alt: Dr. Wily

(Am I doing this right?)

 

[senegal]

A note on CM Virizon: I also found the three attacks version to be underwhelming, so I switched to subCM, which is doing great things and much more useful imo. Giga Drain and HP Rock have good enough coverage and it is incredibly bulky on the special side after just on CM. Plus, like you said, there is so much that easily revenge Virizon that setting up CMs without sub just often isnt worth it

 

[Nas]

I'm trying CM Virizion right now, and so far it's ass. Relying on Focus Miss is awful. It doesn't hit hard enough right off the bat, and I'm finding it hard to get the opportunities to net a CM before Darmanitan/Crobat/Zapdos/etc. come charging in.

Switching to SD Virizion. Maybe I'll try a specially bulky one too.

Also I have a ~1650 rating and I can't see myself on the UU ladder. Am I doing it wrong?

The ladder has been updated so that you need to acquire a deviation below a certain number in order to appear on the leaderboard. I forget exactly what that number is, but I think it's between 75 and 80. Basically, the more games you play, the lower your deviation gets, so this was implemented as a means to ensure that players who've only played a few games don't spontaneously appear on the leaderboard ahead of players who've played many games.

 

[TheStarRapper]

Gonna try Tornadus on an HO rain squad!

Alt: Yellow-Purple

EDIT: I completely randomly came up with the name b/c they are complementary colors and chose Raikou, and found out it has those colors, mind=blown

EDIT2: New rank at 1695 in photo

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EDIT3: Newer Rank (1720) with Description in Hide Tags

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It sounds like Pokemazter has had pretty good results with Tornadus. That's funny because I feel like Torn is the weakest member of my team. I currently run a set like this

Tornadus (M) @ Damp Rock
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Rain Dance
- Taunt
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast

With not enough power to break through walls like Snorlax and P2, as well as being hit hard by Raikou if it switches in on a Hurricane, I actually preferred when Tornadus went down quicker to give my rain sweepers more time to function. Maybe I should have lowered HP, Def, and SpDef IVs, haha.

I have only seen one Cofagrigus, but it came out while my Kingdra was throwing rain Hydro Pumps around, so it didn't get a chance to set up.

Virizion is strong by itself and has good resistances, but still is weak defensively, and fellow CMer in the tier Raikou can Calm Mind alongside it, hit first with 115 Speed, and usually come out on top. Didn't get a lot of exposure here, though. When I saw a physical variant, I would send Sableye in to will o wisp and neuter it. Maybe this Pokemon has more potential and my opponents didn't use it right.

I think I only saw a standard Defensive support Mew, my team is all Special so I shrugged it off.

Specially Defensive Meloetta is a monster, I was really surprised with how it took +1 CM Raikou Thunderbolts. Really scary if it gets set up.

I think that most of these threats do much better when they are set up, and my Offensive Rain team did not really allow that, so I'm not sure about how these Pokemon would fare against other teams.

 

[Mazz]

So this is what I've got after having started yesterday. A few things about the additions;

Bulk Up Tornadus is VERY scary. It plays a lot like how Heracross and Raikou do - if the opposing team does not have a Rhyperior, Zapdos, Raikou, or Rotom-H, I win. After two, even three boosts, which it can set up on a vast number of Pokemon thanks to Prankster Taunt, its nearly unstoppable. Acrobatics hits like a meteor, and with the Flying Gem, is capable of OHKOing things like Gligar with ease at +2. Hopefully, people move away from this rain shit and come to realize that Tornadus excels outside of Rain, and that Hurricane isn't the only thing it can smash you with.

Cofagrigus is a boss, and the OTR set wins matches. Everyone, use this.

Now, I haven't been using Meloetta, but I've seen a few on the ladder. First thing, I hate it. It absolutely shuts down OTF Cofagrigus and every other Ghost-type in the tier, minus Chandelure. It's annoying as hell to play against because of its Speed tier (mostly when it changes formes), and Serene Grace is just in general a piss-off. The CM set will be its best set, and I feel that thanks to its typing and Serene Grace, may hold itself apart from Mew. Hopefully, it will never be as common. Also, it's cry is annoying as fuck.

Another Pokemon I'm probably never going to use in the near future, Virizion has been a mixed bag for me. Its overly predictable, as basically every one I've played has been a SD variant on a Rain Team. However, I hate playing against it, as its dual STAB allow it to switch in on a lot of shit without consequence. SD will set it apart from the other Grass-type Pokemon already available to UU, which will give it a niche.

Mew has been weird for me so far. I'm not at all afraid of it, and I've been able to quickly eliminate any that I run into on the ladder. Maybe UU won't be so bad with Mew back after all! Who the hell am I kidding? We all know mew needs to get its shit out of this tier. Like now. I've seen it three times and I already hate it. Thank god for stupid people on the ladder, otherwise, I may be a few more points downwards.

More to come as I climb higher on the ladder!

Posting more as I said I would:

Even I'm guilty of this, but Meloetta is actually very good despite looking like a shitty Mew. It's much less versatile than Mew, but works much better than Mew does (OTR Cofagrigus anybody?). I'm posting this mostly to say that my mind has been changed that it won't have a niche, as it will. It's speedy, and makes good use of Calm Mind. Still hate it though.

 

[Nas]

This will be ending in a few days, so now would be a good time to start posting some results. :)

 

[neoswordmaster]

Been using Scarf Mew with Trick and SD Virizion

Virizion @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge

It can do decent damage, a 2HKO on Slowbro with Leaf Blade without SD, but I find it difficult to switch into. It has difficulty staying in after setting up a SD as Rock/Grass/Fighting is decent, but not perfect coverage. This is especially true if the opponent has something scarfed such as Darmanitan or Honchkrow that can easily out-speed and revenge OHKO a Virizion. As a result, sweeps are short lived if at all. This wouldn't be so bad if it didn't rely so much on setting up SD to be a real physical threat. It has decent late game use, but these times are few and far between. Virizion's natural special bulk allows it to survive a decent neutral hit or two on the special side, but it's uninvested defensive leaves it vulnerable. It has it's niche, but I don't I think I'll find myself using it for long.

Mew @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
- Psyshock
- Aura Sphere
- Fire Blast
- Trick

Mew has two strengths, versatility and the ability to surprise people. While the set I'm using is effective, Mew's true potential lies in innovative and lesser used sets to catch the opponent off guard. I replaced my Tricking Chandelure with this Mew in the hopes that it could fill a similar role. While I miss the STAB, Mew has done a fairly good job. Not the powerhouse I was expecting, and the natural bulk leaves a little to be desired, but overall Mew only seems to be limited only by the player. Not as much of a problem to face in UU as I thought it would. I'll have to experiment with other sets.

 

[TPO3]

I've been trying Nasty Plot Mew out a lot, and I have to say, I'm surprised that it's not quite as threatening as it once was. I think with Scarf Heracross gaining so much popularity, as well as Trick Room/Nasty Plot Cofagrigus, Scrafty being introduced, Tornadus being introduced, and Chandelure rising to #2 in usage (some of them being scarfed), Mew's old offensive dominance has gone down a bit. Mew is still quite a threatening pkmn, and under the right conditions, it will definitely still tear teams to shreds, but it requires a bit more support now than it used to. I'm wondering how a Swords Dance Mew would work, as Sucker Punch would give it a way to beat Cofag, Chandelure, and Tornadus, so I definitely want to test it out a bit.

 

[Nas]

Due to ANOTHER ladder reset that occurred at the end of this challenge, there won't be a winner declared for this installment. I'll leave this open for a while in case anyone wants to post more results, but this RG is now over.

 

[Mazz]

Due to ANOTHER ladder reset that occurred at the end of this challenge, there won't be a winner declared for this installment. I'll leave this open for a while in case anyone wants to post more results, but this RG is now over.

Gotta love the PS ladder.

 

[hobo bob]

I didn't officially enter the research group but I wanted to post some of my experiences with Meloetta, specifically a CM set I made.

Meloetta @ Leftovers
64 HP/192 SpA/252 Speed
Timid/ Modest
-Calm Mind
-Substitute
-Psychic
-Thunderbolt

I have to say I have been pleased with the results I achieved with this set. I would primarily use it to set up on bulky walls such as Slowbro/Milotic, usually switching in on a predicted ice beam or weak STAB. Since Meloetta can be a bit unpredictable, their first instinct is to status which is why Sub is in the set. After a single CM Meloetta will become quite bulky on the special side, and reaches surprising power with it's STAB Psychic. Sub also helps ease prediction when you have a feeling your opponent might switch, which leads to your opponent being forced to sac a poke to prevent a sweep. It also has the added benefit of protecting you from Sucker Punch mind games, the bane of every Psychic type sweeper.

The best advantage of this set is the surprise factor. I lost count how many times people switched in Slowbro/generic wall, expecting a physical set, only for me to start setting up in their face. Their next move was to toss a status, expecting to cripple my sweeper, only for me to set up a Sub and become even deadlier.

I will admit the EV's are a bit arbitrary but they seem to work out. Max speed means you outpace a fair portion of the bulkier side of UU. Speed can be vital vs special attackers since you obviously want to CM before their attack. You might think with the Speed + nature you would miss some power, but with SR up and a single CM it was not difficult to grab OHKOs. The small investment in HP meant bulkier subs and more recovery from lefties, which made it easier to grab multiple boosts if necessary.

As for the attacks chosen, I only had 2 slots available so I had to choose STAB+ coverage move. Since Meloetta does not receive any notable Sp normal attacks, I had to go with Psychic. Tbolt rounded off the coverage nicely, hitting bulky waters and STAB resists hard. The exception to this is Krookodile, who is immune to both attacks. I do not think there is a better single coverage move, since there are resists for every notable HP. This could be solved by going CM + 3 attacks, but as I stated earlier the protection granted from Sub was invaluable and Krook never proved to be a significant problem.

 

[Rawbi]

In doing these research groups, I'm finding that I enjoy using the teammates I come up with for researchmon more than researchmon itself :V

I'll give my two cents on Virizion, I guess, although I got the laddering blues during this thing and took a break. I tried CMZion at first, and found it's just so hard to set up. The moment it comes in on something it can set up on, the opponent switches in something faster that OHKOs: Darmanitan, ScarfChandy, Crobat, Zapdos, etc. Relying on Focus Blast is also ass. 70%? I don't think so. On the plus side, having some recovery in Giga Drain was nice.

From there I went to SDZion. Like its special counterpart, and also mentioned in this thread, it's hard to get this thing in and set up. Firing off unboosted CCs still hurts though, and Stone Edge on the switch to its usual counters hurts.

Virizion is the cutest of the musketeer trio, but it certainly doesn't have it easy. I'd still give it a try though.

PS: I'm in love with Cofagrigus