Metagame Reversed

[CoolMan6001]

View attachment 94322
imo, necrozma dawn wings should be strongly considered for an unban. It has basically no viable physical ghost moves, and Moongeist Beam's power has been dramatically reduced. In fact, all it has got in terms of strong, reliable physical STAB is Photon Geyser, which has middling PP. And as for usable physical coverage, it is relegated to EdgeQuake and Knock Off. On top of all of these factors, Dawn Wings still has the same middling flaws it normally has, such as poor speed and a basically useless ability since its only 2 weaknesses are 4x weaknesses which'll kill it regardless of Prism Armor.

Ya know Necrozma gets Shadow Claw right? Unless you don't consider that viable.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Ya know Necrozma gets Shadow Claw right? Unless you don't consider that viable.

Shadow Claw is awful. 70 BP with the only additional effect being a slightly higher crit rate? Gross. I've never seen this move being used on anything other than SD Mimikyu, which has no better options for "strong" Ghost STAB.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

View attachment 94322
imo, necrozma dawn wings should be strongly considered for an unban. It has basically no viable physical ghost moves, and Moongeist Beam's power has been dramatically reduced. In fact, all it has got in terms of strong, reliable physical STAB is Photon Geyser, which has middling PP. And as for usable physical coverage, it is relegated to EdgeQuake and Knock Off. On top of all of these factors, Dawn Wings still has the same middling flaws it normally has, such as poor speed and a basically useless ability since its only 2 weaknesses are 4x weaknesses which'll kill it regardless of Prism Armor.

There is so much wrong with this. First off, while Shadow Claw isn't ideal, it's still a viable physical Ghost attack (ninja'd). Second, you know what else has 8 PP? Stone Edge, Close Combat, Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, and oh yeah, Moongeist Beam. Third, EdgeQuake is referred to as such because it's solid neutral coverage, and it also has Brick Break and X-Scissor for Dark types, as well as Outrage and Iron Head, which are at least better than f***ing Knock Off (Ghost and Dark have near identical coverage). Fourth, Prism Armor is actually a bit more useful now, since DW Necrozma can take Sucker Punches, Knock Offs, and Pursuits better due to its Defense getting a boost (109 --> 127). Finally, it gets Swords Dance.

absolutely not (Necrozma-Dawn-Wings) @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Photon Geyser
- Brick Break / X-Scissor
- Swords Dance

With that out of the way, here are some sets that are actually legal.

Omastar @ Focus Sash
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Shell Smash
- Knock Off

Now that it's a physical attacker, Omastar can make better use of its Rock typing (why doesn't this thing get Power Gem). The lack of Ice or Ground coverage sucks, but Knock Off hits most things for neutral damage.

Weavile @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Surf

Reversed Weavile lives up to the Ice type's true potential as a special-attacking glass cannon, with a second great STAB to boot. Its coverage options are limited, but potent, hitting the Steel, Rock, and Fire types that would give Weavile trouble. Nasty Plot is also an option, but Weavile's frailty makes it difficult.

Banette-Mega @ Banettite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
- Calm Mind
- Will-O-Wisp

The swap in attacking stats has granted Banette a better STAB move as well as a boosting option. I went with Wisp in the last slot because it pairs nicely with the Sp. Def boosts from Calm Mind, but Psychic, Thunderbolt, and classic Destiny Bond are also options.

 

[dhelmise]

code

    {
        name: "[Gen 7] Reversed",
        desc: [
            "Every Pokémon's Attack and Special Attack stats and Defense and Special Defense stats are swapped.",
            "&bullet; <a href=\"http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3623871/\">Reversed</a>",
        ],

        mod: 'gen7',
        ruleset: ['[Gen 7] OU'],
        banlist: ['Kyurem-Black'],
        unbanlist: ['Kyurem-White', 'Marshadow', 'Metagross-Mega', 'Naganadel', 'Reshiram'],
        onModifyTemplate: function (template, pokemon) {
            template = Dex.getTemplate(pokemon);
            let stat = template.baseStats;
            let atk = stat['atk'];
            let def = stat['def'];
            let spa = stat['spa'];
            let spd = stat['spd'];
            stat['atk'] = spa;
            stat['def'] = spd;
            stat['spa'] = atk;
            stat['spd'] = def;
            return template;
        },
    },

 

[snow]

Suspect Section

Welcome to the suspect section! These will be posts designed to address Pokemon of debate in the meta; this includes Bans and Unbans in the tier as well as discussion about potential changes in the tier moving into the future.

This post is aimed at two Pokemon in particular, one discussed about being banned and another about being unbanned.

Shaymin-Sky has been discussed a lot on PS and here. Yes, Shaymin-Sky has seen quite a heafty nerf in this meta, with it losing 17 of its base Special Attack. Yes, it has a dreadful movepool for Physical Attacks. However, Shaymin-Sky has a speed of 127 meaning it can safely flinch down Pokemon with base 100 speed without the need of a Choice Scarf unlike it's comparison of Jirachi. Shaymin-Sky however does hit a little less than Jirachi with Air Slash being 5 less Base Power than Iron Head. This does not change the fact that in order to use this Pokemon to its full potential you will be relying on RNG which is highly uncompetitive and not something me or ScarfWynaut want to encourage in this tier.

Arguments for the unban is that it helps to balance a tier that sees Tapu koko as a huge threat but with the future of Tapu Koko in this tier undecided it is not a reliable argument to make. Shaymin-Sky also has trouble dealing with Specially Defensive Skarmory but naming one Pokemon that can wall it does not stop it from being over centralizing, I hope that is clear when discussing other Pokemon as well. The most compelling argument is that it is not as good as Naganadel and Reshiram which is not untrue, but Naganadel and Reshiram have plenty of counters that they can not deal with, with the help of RNG.

In conclusion, Shaymin-Sky is not seen as broken but uncompetitive and will not be unbanned for the foreseeable future. Discussion on it is still fine when theorymonning however do not ask for it to unbanned.

Tapu Koko has been given a buff to its Special Attack by 20 which is a huge amount. Tapu Koko is already a threat in OU and will only be better in this tier with reversed stats. I have spoke to multiple people about it as well as ScarfWynaut and although it does look like it will be over centralizing, it has been decided to stay in the tier for the release of the OM.

Tapu Koko has checks in both Ferrothorn and Hippowdon but Tapu Koko can run HP Fire and Grass Knot as coverage to easily deal with these. Walls that do not resist Thunderbolt will have a hard time checking it and with its amazing Speed tier it can clean teams quickly. With the buff to its Special Attack it is now able to freely run Scarf without having to worry about its power.

This Pokemon is practically being suspected at the release of the tier and healthy discussion is encouraged about whether this Pokemon should stay or go. Please refrain from posting one liners or unhelpful comments about this Pokemon.​

 

[urkerab]

One of the mons that got Shift Gear,but as a waste. Now psychical mag can be real!

Sadly Soul-Heart becomes useless though.

        onModifyTemplate: function (template, pokemon) {
            let stat = template.baseStats;
            stat['atk'] = stat['spa'];
            stat['def'] = stat['spd'];
            stat['spa'] = stat['atk'];
            stat['spd'] = stat['def'];
            return template;
        },

Um... No. First, despite the slightly misleading function name, you need to clone your template, rather than modifying the one that you get passed. Second, this doesn't actually affect the special stats. Hopefully I've implemented it correctly on ROM.

Although it has not been coded yet, the perfect version would be that you invest in Special Attack for something like Darmanitan but as the OM has not been coded yet, we will have to see what is possible.

Kris has the right idea, but yes, only the base stats are switched, so you have to remember to switch your nature and EV investments.

 

[snow]

Reversed is Playable!

Reversed is now playable on rom.psim.us.
Please come along and try the tier for yourself!
Bot has teams!

With the announcement of it being available I want to alert everyone that I have added two untested Sample Teams to the third post in this thread! Feel free to grab a team and play. :]

Viability Rankings will be updated soon!​

 

[Dunfan]

157 Attack with dual STAB that is unresisted could be very overcentralizing if you ask me. Prism Armor is a good ability paired with its great defenses allowing to survive SE attacks and KO them back. It does remind me of Reshiram a bit though in stats but I dont see it being brought down, if anything Reshiram will end up going up. It all depends how the meta plays out.

I have to disagree about Necrozma Dawn Wings being overcentralizing.
Actually, its weaknesses are Ghost and Dark, both of which are still doing it 300% damage factoring Prism Armor.
The defense and special defense swap also means that it becomes weaker to Shadow Ball, a not so rare coverage move.
In addition to that, its Ghost STAB is Shadow Claw, boasting a "fantastic" 70 BP... at this point it would just run a mixed set to keep the useful secondary effect of Moongeist Beam.

Basically : It now sort of suffers from the Kyurem-Black syndrome, enough in my opinion to suspect an unbanning.

But anyway, i may be wrong, and Necrozma Dawn Wings may be more fearsome than expected. Its impact on the meta is also hardly predictable... so i guess that only a suspect test could demonstrate how balanced or unbalanced it is.

 

[Escavalier Royale]

Magearna looks pretty interesting since Shift Gear now boosts its highest attacking stat. Too bad its Physical movepool sucks... but mixed sets could be viable thanks to its Fairy STAB's high base power and still decent Special Attack.
Magearna @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 Atk, 4 SpA, 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
-Shift Gear
-Iron Head
-Brick Break/Focus Blast
-Fleur Cannon

Something noteworthy about this is that Fleur Cannon no longer forces Magearna out immediately. I prefer running Brick Break since it can get boosted and not affected by Fleur Cannon's drops, but Focus Blast deals more damage to Chansey, altough it prob won't KO without the Fightinium boost or a lot of chip. Naive nature can also be used, since I see a lot of physical attackers in this meta like Zard Y, the Latis and Alakazam.
EDIT: Gosh, I seem to always write Special when I mean Physical lately and vice versa.

 

[Call of Winter]

Kartana @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Giga Drain
- Vacuum Wave
- Hidden Power [Ground]

I offer no explanation for this nor any justification for it. I just find it funny to use.

 

[Yahooboo]

I was wondering what people would think about what seems to be one of the only viable physical Psychic or Fairy attackers, Mega Gardevoir. Pixilate Double Edge is a damn powerful nuke, Return/Frustration do lots of damage too and thanks to Zen Headbutt and the Elemental Punches its physical movepool isn't even that bad. It also has amazing support moves such as Healing Wish, Memento, Pain Split, Will-O-Wisp, Encore, Heal Bell, Taunt, Trick Room, Dual Screens and Destiny Bond, making it a highly flexible attacker. It's also nearly as physically bulky as Skarmory is in regular OU. Of course, it has many drawbacks, namely special frailty, Psychic typing being bad and its speed not being quite as high as it would wish, along with it taking a mega slot of course. I reckon it could find a niche even though it might not be a huge player in the meta.

Gardevoir-Mega @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge/Return/Frustration/Body Slam
- Zen Headbutt/Thunder Punch
- Fire Punch
- Thunder Punch/Destiny Bond/Healing Wish/Encore/Memento/Will-O-Wisp/Taunt/Heal Bell/Light Screen/Reflect/Shadow Sneak/Pain Split/Wish/Toxic/Substitute
(lol just showing off the last slot's flexibility)

Believe it or not, but you don't actually have to be horribly slow to abuse Trick Room. A minimum speed MGarde absolutely could pose a threat to somewhat faster teams by running it in the last slot.

 

[Escavalier Royale]

Kartana @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Giga Drain
- Vacuum Wave
- Hidden Power [Ground]

I offer no explanation for this nor any justification for it. I just find it funny to use.

I run this exact set, just with a scarf. The creator of this OM got swept by it :P

Don't want to double post so I'll say this here: DON'T unban Necrozma-DW. KyuB syndrome or not, it has something very important that Kyurem lacks: Swords Dance. And before you say "Meh Kartana has higher atk in OU and SD too", Kartana lacks bulk and a wide movepool, as well as the ability to go mixed if required.
As for Koko, it indeed looks very scary as the only modest SpAtk increase is magnified by the boost Electric Terrain gives it. Its special coverage options also became significantly more powerful at the cost of Brave Bird and U-Turn being weaker, but U-Turn is mainly to pivot anyway and I haven't seen any MegaSaurs in the meta yet. Indeed something that could be looked at.

 

[snow]

If you have an issue with my functional code then do it yourself. No need to correct me on it just because you have nitpicks. Yes... my code worked fine, you didn’t have to be a dick. I edited it just to please you because that’s all that matters apparently.

calm down, he's hardly being a dick lol

go back into your bubble bath pls

Please keep this chat about reversed and not one liners or bitching please.

Kartana @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Giga Drain
- Vacuum Wave
- Hidden Power [Ground]

I offer no explanation for this nor any justification for it. I just find it funny to use.

My whole team nearly got swept by this yesterday. Having huge Spa and getting boosts from the ability, you recover so much with giga drain. I would personally have HP Fire over Ground as Skarmory and Ferrothorn are both Special Defense walls.

I run this exact set, just with a scarf. The creator of this OM got swept by it :P

Don't want to double post so I'll say this here: DON'T unban Necrozma-DW. KyuB syndrome or not, it has something very important that Kyurem lacks: Swords Dance. And before you say "Meh Kartana has higher atk in OU and SD too", Kartana lacks bulk and a wide movepool, as well as the ability to go mixed if required.
As for Koko, it indeed looks very scary as the only modest SpAtk increase is magnified by the boost Electric Terrain gives it. Its special coverage options also became significantly more powerful at the cost of Brave Bird and U-Turn being weaker, but U-Turn is mainly to pivot anyway and I haven't seen any MegaSaurs in the meta yet. Indeed something that could be looked at.

I will not be considering Dawn Wings soon but if enough people bring it up I will talk to ScarfWynaut and make a Suspect Section detailing why it wont be unbanned.

 

[drampa's grandpa]

I would consider Skymin's unban to be based on whether it can be overpowered with its 103 SpA. Because Flinches isn't really why Skymin is banned, it's more about SpD drops from Seed Flare invalidating the majority of switch-ins alongside a great speed tier and p good three move coverage. Now, with a whole new set of switchins, the question becomes, can things wall it?

252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Seed Flare vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 35-42 (10.5 - 12.6%) -- possible 8HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Seed Flare vs. -6 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 141-166 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Skarmory walls pretty easily, and can even wall at -6.

252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor-Mega: 90-106 (26.1 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Seed Flare vs. -6 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor-Mega: 141-166 (40.9 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Scizor-Mega can do the same.

Compare this to OU where the premier special wall in the tier, Chansey, gets 2hko'd by Specs after one drop with its standard set.
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Seed Flare vs. -2 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 352-415 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I think Shaymin might be safe, but that it will still go special. It's physical movepool is trash lol. (Normal moves, Grass moves, and Zen Headbutt.)

Koko will probably be overwhelming similar to how it was in STABmons, except Special, but I haven't actually played so this is all theorymon.

EDIT: I should note that Air Slash hax (aka the ability to make checks that are 3hko'd by Air Slash extremely unreliable) shouldn't be ignored, and is a major part of the discussion we should have if we talk about allowing Skymin, it's just that SpD drops are bigger.

 

[Akumeoy]

Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Focus Blast
- Encore
- Charge Beam / Ice Beam / Filler

Mega Lopunny LOVES that it no longer has to worry about contact chip, Intimidate, and burns, but it HATES how much worse of a move Focus Blast is than High Jump Kick (and Hyper Voice is a bit weaker too). Encore lets you punish Calm Mind users that try to set up on you, rather than lose to them outright. Charge Beam lets you rack up SpA boosts on Skarmory, rather than just forcing it out with Encore, while I'm sure Ice Beam does something cuz it always does something.

Garchomp @ Life Orb / Dragonium Z / Firium Z
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco meteor
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock

Garchomp can make hella use of Fire Blast off of 130 SpA; really, it just has stellar coverage now, to the point where its problems don't really stem from resists so much as just high-SpD threats. It's pretty one-dimensional and it doesn't get any relevant boosting moves, but I could see it as a relevant offensive rocker.

Keldeo @ Life Orb / Waterium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Liquidation
- Close Combat
- Aqua Jet

A reason to run rain? Maybe? Ash Gren got a bit worse (Gren's Dark/Water movepool sucks) and Pelipper can't dish out damage any more, but +2 Keldeo is a damn monster and it blows back Ferrothorn (dope for a rain team). Check this out:

+2 252 Atk Keldeo Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Bulu in Rain: 290-342 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

I guess something like Taunt, Poison Jab, Bounce, or Giga Impact (with Normalium Z, obviously) could go in over Aqua Jet but priority is bretty cool. Actually, speaking of rain...

Dragonite @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe or run some bulk EVs idk
Modest Nature
- Agility
- Hurricane
- Thunder
- Surf / Draco Meteor

Someone posted about Draingonite upthread, but I feel like this set hits closer to the mark. Agility Dragonite has the potential to actually become a sweeper rather than an awkward all-out attacker, ESPECIALLY if it gets that dank Weakness Policy boost. Z-Focus Blast seems kind of unnecessary when you can just keep chunking Ferrothorn with Hurricane and risk nothing except your Multiscale (and rain turns ig). The choice between Surf and Draco Meteor is between better coverage & staying power vs. higher damage output & better matchup vs. Dragon-types, respectively.

Tangrowth @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Giga Drain / Leaf Storm
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power Ice
- Earthquake

THICC

252+ SpA Dragonite Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 164-194 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Subzero Slammer (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 328-386 (81.1 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

NICE SUPER-EFFECTIVE MOVE, LOSER

Gallade @ Galladite
Ability: Steadfast
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Focus Blast
- Psychic/Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind / Charge Beam / Thunderbolt / Taunt / Will-o-Wisp

Since Mega Medicham is nerfed by this meta, Mega Gallade actually has a discernible niche -- specially oriented Fighting-type and specially-oriented Psychic-type. Mega Lopunny has the speed advantage, but Mega Gallade is stronger and has some interesting options for setup and utility. Now, this is no guarantee that Mega Gallade will be good. Just that there is a theoretical reason to use it.

Pyroar @ Choice Band / Firium Z / Steelium Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Return
- Iron Tail
- Crunch

FINALLY, SOMEONE LET ME OUTTA MY CAGE. I've never used this mon before in my life, but now it has passable stats, great STABs, and Moxie. Iron Tail and Crunch round off its coverage. Firium Z is for just nuking neutral walls to start snowballing, while Steelium Z lets you break through some resistances, and Choice Band if you don't want to use your Z-slot on this.

I'll edit this if I think of anything else.

 

[Isa Simple]

Steelix @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

Sorry I thought I heard someone say Tapu Koko.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Steelix: 98-116 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 468-554 (166.5 - 197.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 204-242 (59.8 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Escavalier Royale]

Steelix @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

Sorry I thought I heard someone say Tapu Koko.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Steelix: 98-116 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 468-554 (166.5 - 197.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 204-242 (59.8 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Steelix may have great power thanks to Sheer Force, but its low physical defense leaves it vulnerable to the likes of Alakazam and (Mega) Lati@s. Low speed doesn't help with this either.
That aside though, Nidoking looks much better as a Sheer Force attacker. It may have worse bulk and worse defensive typing, but is faster than Lix and in this meta his SpAtk is much more threatening. He also has a generally better movepool. The only thing Lix has over Nidoking is a better matchup vs stuff like Koko.

 

[G-Luke]

Guys don't use Nidoking its absolute trash compared to Landorus-T.

Losing most of the competition for physical Fighting type is a godsend move for Infernape, as Keldeo is basically its only competition. While Keldeo has a higher Attack and better defensive typing, Infernape's Fire STAB + its amazing coverage + unpredictability / mixed potential gives it a well deserved niche in the meta.

 

[Escavalier Royale]

Guys don't use Nidoking its absolute trash compared to Landorus-T

Nidoking has Sheer Force+Life Orb which Lando doesn't have. Lando is, despite its high offense, not a very good wallbreaker: it would rather run Scarf, Setup Sweeper, or even Support. Nidoking is more for the immediate power. Nidoqueen can also be used because despite its lower offenses, it can afford to run Modest, while King absolutely needs Timid's extra speed.

 

[G-Luke]

Nidoking has Sheer Force+Life Orb which Lando doesn't have. Lando is, despite its high offense, not a very good wallbreaker: it would rather run Scarf, Setup Sweeper, or even Support. Nidoking is more for the immediate power. Nidoqueen can also be used because despite its lower offenses, it can afford to run Modest, while King absolutely needs Timid's extra speed.

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus-Therian Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 149-177 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 152-179 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The damage difference is that of less than 1 percent. I think Landorus T having much better stats across the board + Defog and having an actual speed tier (85 is waay too slow in this offensive meta) is very significant. And why would Landorus not want to be a wallbreaker? It certainly has the potential for one.

 

[dhelmise]

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus-Therian Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 149-177 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 152-179 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The damage difference is that of less than 1 percent. I think Landorus T having much better stats across the board + Defog and having an actual speed tier (85 is waay too slow in this offensive meta) is very significant. And why would Landorus not want to be a wallbreaker? It certainly has the potential for one.

I personally think they both have their niches: Landorus-T is faster and basically as strong as LO + SF Nidoking (or so you think), but Nidoking has a better offensive special movepool with Ice Beam and Thunderbolt. However, Nidoking IS stronger with both Choice Scarf and Life Orb than Landorus-T is with the same traits, so I'm not sure how you did your Calc'ing:

252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 392-464 (122.1 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Landorus-Therian Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 258-304 (80.3 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
34.4 - 49.8% stronger

252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 432-510 (134.5 - 158.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Landorus-Therian Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 282-334 (87.8 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
46.7 - 54.8% stronger

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 562-663 (175 - 206.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus-Therian Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 367-434 (114.3 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
60.7 - 71.3% stronger

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 510-603 (158.8 - 187.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus-Therian Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 335-395 (104.3 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
54.5 - 64.8% stronger

As you can see, Timid Choice Scarf Nidoking (the weakest Nidoking set listed) is stronger than Modest Life Orb Landorus-T (the strongest Landorus-T set listed). Maybe you forgot to adjust stats?

E: It appears that I accidentally did the calcs with Sludge Wave and not Earth Power. However, the power difference in general is still noticeable with these calcs, and Nidoking has better coverage anyways.

 

[G-Luke]

I personally think they both have their niches: Landorus-T is faster and basically as strong as LO + SF Nidoking (or so you think), but Nidoking has a better offensive special movepool with Ice Beam and Thunderbolt. However, Nidoking IS stronger with both Choice Scarf and Life Orb than Landorus-T is with the same traits, so I'm not sure how you did your Calc'ing:

252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 392-464 (122.1 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Landorus-Therian Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 258-304 (80.3 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
34.4 - 49.8% stronger

252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 432-510 (134.5 - 158.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Landorus-Therian Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 282-334 (87.8 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
46.7 - 54.8% stronger

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 562-663 (175 - 206.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus-Therian Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 367-434 (114.3 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
60.7 - 71.3% stronger

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 510-603 (158.8 - 187.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus-Therian Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 335-395 (104.3 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
54.5 - 64.8% stronger

As you can see, Timid Choice Scarf Nidoking (the weakest Nidoking set listed) is stronger than Modest Life Orb Landorus-T (the strongest Landorus-T set listed). Maybe you forgot to adjust stats?

E: It appears that I accidentally did the calcs with Sludge Wave and not Earth Power. However, the power difference in general is still noticeable with these calcs, and Nidoking has better coverage anyways.

Better coverage aside, I think the only niche King has is a better matchup against Koko, and I don't much point in these calcs with STAB involved. Point is, while Nido has a few redeeming factors, you give up way too much to run it over Landorus T.

 

[snow]

I can't be bothered to reply to everyone so I'll just give my thoughts here.
side note... Hope everyone had an amazing Christmas.

Nidoking has very good raw power with both Sheer Force and a diverse movepool, allowing it to break through team while running Life Orb. However it does have a pretty bad speed tier in a meta that at the moment seems to be offensive. I do believe it is a better cleaner than Landorus, if it can outspeed its opponents or live hits.

Landorus on the other hand has relatively good coverage in Sludge Wave, Focus Blast and Hidden Power Ice to be able to deal with what it needs to. Even though it has worse coverage moves than Nidoking it makes up for it with having access to both Calm Mind and Rock Polish, allowing it to sweep teams that have no real counters. Good checks to Calm Mind Landorus include Celesteela, Skarmory and Ferrothorn which can trapped by Alolan Golem that gets access to Fire Blast, although Fightinium Z Landorus can handle itself rather nicely.

Overall I would say that Nidoking is the better cleaner where as Landorus is the better sweeper, which is up for debate to how far apart their roles are on a team. Either way they are both viable Pokemon in the meta at the moment and only time will tell which Pokemon is better. (Personally I see Landorus edging it)

Sorry if this post has some mistakes, I have been drinking and it took me an hour to write this up/check it.

 

[Skankovich]

Hustle Togekiss. The meme. The best it gets is Work Up if you want to boost...and it has no physical fairy STAB. Still might by able to smash something.

Togekiss @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Sky Attack
- Drain Punch
- Roost

Toge isn't too meme-y tbh, band hustle espeed hits pretty damn hard - as in, 1hko Tapu Koko hard.

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Togekiss Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 258-304 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Not that Koko is especially bulky, but this is easily enough power to clean offensive teams. Aerial ace gives it a STAB that doesn't miss too which is nice, and topping it with fighting coverage is pretty much perfect outside of Aegis.

 

[smellslikememe]

just have to point out that Skymin doesn't run scarf like ever but yeah anyway

actually I'm fairly sure Scarf Skymin was a set in Gen 6 whose sole purpose was either to revenge kill or flinch a +2 Xern to death.
(correction: apparently it's a set this gen LMAO, althouth its purpose has changed to checking setup sweepers in general)
Just so this isn't a 1-liner, here's a shit set I thought of based on some shitty AG memes I was running around with:

HEATSQUAD (Marshadow) @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind
- Substitute

Pretty fun set imo, if you struggle against stall then this set can stallbreak due to Ghost-type and near unresisted STAB coverage. It's not dead weight against offense either, since it has 125 Spe.

EDIT: had to change HP fighting to Focus Blast lmao, stupid 3IV legends