Gen 4 RMT: "Minute Waltz" Offensive Gen 4 OU

[togaquest]

"Minute Waltz": Gen 4 OU Offense by togaquest

Hello everyone! I am here to share a team that I have had success with on the PokemonShowdown ladder as of late. If you don't know me, I have been playing competitively online for awhile now (in fact since DPP first came out years ago) and thoroughly enjoy the strategic aspects of this Gen (Gen 4 has always been my fav). I am not really a tournament player but hope to eventually be involved in tournaments so hopefully you all can help me get there. I appreciate you for reading this and all types of critique is welcome :).

About the team: This team is not my most creative, nor is it one I am most proud of. It is actually a very simple team with a few quirks that allows me to gain ladder points quickly and comfortably. I generally like to be a creative player and try to implement unorthodox strategies, but found this team to be very reliable which is why I've come to like it so much. I gave it the name "Minute Waltz" based off of the piano song by Chopin. I have grown to become an avid pianist and the music reflects this team's playstyle. I try to end matches quickly through offensive pressure, hopefully in a "minute", suggestive of the name and fast-pace tempo of the song. Currently this team got me ranked #9 on the Gen 4 OU Top 500 PokemonShowdown leaderboard (upon this edit I am now lower lol). I have consistently won 1400-1500 level matches with it. Hopefully that allows me to vouch for the strength of this team.

Team-Building Process: I am not going to go super in-depth here, primarily because the team-building was very quick for me. No members were replaced and all were selected pretty much on first-time instinct. I have two main sweepers and the other Pokemon are designed to help facilitate the sweep. It's simple and it works.

Well here we go!

Machamp @ Lum Berry
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 244 HP / 252+ Atk / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Payback
- Ice Punch
- Bullet Punch

Description: Machamp is my lead of choice because he is very effective in putting immediate pressure on opponents. Sometimes against low-ranked ladder players I can take out two or three Pokemon with only Machamp and pretty much win the game from there. Even against experienced players Machamp can be frustrating to play against. Pretty much the only leads he doesn't like are Azelf and Specs Heatran. In both cases, I switch to either Tyranitar or Swampert. Machamp is fun to play with because he also requires prediction to use effectively. I like to predict Rotom switches and hit them with Payback, for example. Overall Machamp is a great lead to use in the current metagame. Oh, and his EVs, let me explain: I have taken out a small touch of HP and put it into Speed. This is so that I can outspeed other lead Machamp to get the first hit and second hits. This small detail definitely helps.

Tyranitar @ Expert Belt
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 16 SpA / 240+ Spe
Hasty Nature
- Superpower
- Pursuit
- Fire Blast
- Stone Edge

Description: This is a slightly creative Tyranitar but also one that is becoming more and more common on the ladder. It is designed to feign a Choice Item and then hit the switch-in with a super-effective move. I love Pursuiting Latias's and then Fire-Blasting the Skarm that thinks it is safe. This Tyranitar is set up like this because my sweepers need Skarm and other Steels to be eliminated. Also it helps against Gyrados and Zapdos, two other counters, because it can easily maim them with Stone Edge. Concluding, this Tyranitar has good synergy with the team, and I cannot count how many free kills I have gotten with it. EV explanation: Now that I am looking at this, I don't in fact know why I made his Speed investment as such. If anyone knows of any better alternative, please mention it in the comments. The small SpA investment is enough to deal large damage to Skarm, Breloom, etc.

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252+ SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Grass

Description: Swampert is great. It is sort of the glue to the team. It's resiliency is fantastic and gives me a breath of fresh air throughout the match. He sets up rocks easily and is also surprisingly powerful. Unlike a lot of people, I went with a Special Attack focus. Once again, this allows to me to surprise opponents who think I'm physical and hit them hard on their uninvested side. Skarm takes significant damage from Hydro Pump, as do other Pokemon. Another perk of being specially-based is that Rotoms tend to come in and Wisp me, but then take big damage from Hydro Pump. Torrent-boosted Hydro Pump is also a force to be reckoned with. Ice Beam is there for filler and I threw HP Grass on there to hit other Perts hard. Opposing Swamperts at full health are annoying to deal with for my sweepers, so if I can get them down to like 35%, it is much appreciated. Overall I am pleased with how this Pokemon performs on the team.

Dragonite @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 252+ Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Dance

Description: Dragonite is one of my main sweepers. He generally is the first of my two sweepers that I initiate. He is bulky and generally can get a DD or two pretty reliably. I went with minimal Speed investment because I need him to be bulky because of Breloom and Extreme Speed sort of compensates for the lack of speed. I had Roost over Earthquake at first but quickly realized I needed the coverage. A lot of times Dragonite doesn't outright sweep my opponent, but weakens them enough for my next Pokemon to come in and finish them off.

Scizor @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk+ / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Quick Attack
- Bug Bite

Description: Scizor is strong and fast and can clean teams late game easily. I need him to be as strong as possible, hence the Life Orb over Leftovers. I love this Scizor primarily because of Quick Attack. QA gets me a lot of surprise kills, for example Starmie, Infernape, weakened Gyrados and Zapdos. I don't really know what else to write. This Pokemon is straightforward in its approach and works its role how I want it too. Oh and also, similarly to Machamp, I put a touch more speed on him to outspeed other Scizor.

Rotom-Wash @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252+ Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball
- Hydro Pump
- Trick

Description: Rotom fills important holes in my team that I would otherwise be weak to. Rotom is my revenge killer and Trickster. This set is conventional so I am sure you all know it well. Rotom really shines late game, but requires prediction to be successful in the early game. A lot of the time I will switch him in and then immediately withdraw him to Swampert, predicting the TTar switch. It is important to survive this because I don't want to get swept by Lucario or Gyrados or something. Overall this Pokemon is useful and appreciated.






Threat List: Once again, I am not going to go super in-depth on the threat list. I know a lot of people do but it is not necessary here. This is not a stall team so offensive pressure and prediction/tactics are generally more important than covering all exact threats. But I will mention a few Pokemon that do give this team trouble:

Celebi: This Pokemon is annoying because I don't really have a great switch in for it, plus it is bulky and carries T-Wave. Tyranitar's Pursuit is too weak to help. My best bet is to either catch it with a boosted move, or Trick it with Rotom late game. Tips on how to deal with Celebi will be appreciated!

Empoleon: Empoleon is dangerous because it can set-up easily on most members of this team, and can sweep once boosted. It also is resistant to all of my priority moves. Luckily Empoleon isn't too common.

Shaymin: Another grass type that can be difficult to play against. I need to find out its moveset before I can try to deal with it. HP fire/Hp ice is crucial and determines if my Dragonite can go in or if my Scizor can go it. Also it is deceptively bulky.

Jirachi: Jirachi is always annoying, no matter what team you have (I secretly believe it is broken, but that is for another thread). I hate T-Waves and I hate Iron Heads. Also it can have Grass Knot which can make Swampert die. Jirachi is challenging to deal with, no if ands or buts.

Suicune: Suicune can be tough because it is durable and can set up on a lot of my Pokemon. CM boosts are troublesome and can be GG if Rotom is out of commision.

Heatran: Heatran, specifically TormentTran, can be troublesome if it gets a sub up. I am thinking Roar over Ice Beam or HP Grass on Pert can remedy this. Though my Dragonite can switch between DD and Earthquake/D-Claw to eventually win.

I also want to mention that this team performs well against the standard Nidoqueen/Clef/Skarm/Rotom/etc stall that kind of dominates the top of the ladder. This is because of my surprise movesets that allows me to net some free kills. It is not a free win, and requires prediction and tactics, but this team can punch holes in that type of team archetype. Just wanted to put that out there.

Thanks for reading!

Recent match of this team in action (1500+ level game) : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-860975739
I am sharing this match because it orchestrates the offensive pressure this team has, though I did in fact lose. Looking back, had I ESed with Dragonite on Lucario in the late game I would have won this match. It goes to show that every move matters in offensive games

Minute Waltz Chopin link:

​

 

[Emeral]

Hi Togaquest ! I faced you multiple times on the DPP ladder and I swear this is a really good team.
I've been trying it on the ladder recently because I wanted to post a rate on that.

You have a good offensive preasure and the pokemon fit well together. Special mention to that Dragonite gimmick set which works really well. I remember when facing you that since your Dnite was really bulky, I always tried to predict the roost that you never did which made me lose momentum. The bulk is really appreciated here since as you mentioned, this is the main Breloom switch in and it works overall as a great fighting resist so well done on that.
Also that Swampert is nasty because hitting hard other Swampert is perfect, and the lure for physical wall works well. Anyway, surprising the oponnent with a strong Hydropump hurts a lot because to many teams lack of a real water resist in DPP. So it provides great offensive preasure and also a good Jirachi / Heatran switch in that Machamp tend to attrack in the early game.
However, even if hitting other Swampert is key for the team, I'm not sure about the use of Hidden Power Grass. Hydropump from Swampert to another Swampert does like 50%. I guess when enemy Swampert is below 50%, it's not a thread anymore that's why I think HP Grass might be overkill here. Also the lack of a ground move is pretty annoying, I have been in a lot of situation when I needed some dammage on the Jirachi that keeps flinching me but I can only retaliate with Hydropump that has 80% accuracy. Same thing for hitting Kingdra, finishing off Tyranitar, Heatran, Scizor etc.. That's why I would recommend you this moveset :

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power​

Now I have to talk about Something your team struggle with. Basically I had some trouble when facing water moves. Popular pokemon that come to my mind are Starmie@hydropump, Gyarados@waterfall, Kingdra@waterfall, Latias@surf and other I forget now. Your Tyranitar does a great job, the moveset is good and there is noway he gets removed for someone else. However, I was thinking about your moveset and what it does. In fact it removes steel and bait the choice item but do you really need the extra dammage from Expert Belt ? I am not sure about that. I'm thinking that the same Tyranitar moveset, with an adjusted spread and a Passho Berry would definetly help a lot against all that pokemon. You can easily survive one hit from all those pokemons like Suicune, Empoleon, Gyarados etc.. and retaliate hard. Since Tyranitar can now bait water pokemon, Rotom's job is eased and less exposed to Pursuit.

Tyranitar @ Passho Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 16 Atk / 116 SpA / 240 SpD / 136 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Crunch / Stone Edge
- Pursuit / Stone Edge
- Fire Blast
- Superpower
​

I am not sure about the spread you will probably need to readjust that. I went 136 speed in order to outspeed most Tyranitar, 116 SpeA to have a great punch on Skarmory and Bronzong, 240 in SpeDef in order to tank easily water moves and 16 atk for the punch and it's enough for Starmie/Latias/Celebi/Rotom. But i am not sure about that, just give it a try and give me feedback. Maybe some HP would be nice.

Now, since you have a little less trouble with water Pokemon, I guess you can have the luxury to run roost on your Scizor. In my opinion that would be an awesome wallbreaking asset, especially vs nidoclef stalls. That Quick Attack Scizor is usefull when you need to beat down water pokemons, but with Passho Berry and Rotom this should be enough. That moveset makes you keep Momentum longer against bulkier teams no joke man it feels really good to roost on Clefable and Jirachi for free . Also I would suggest you to run more speed on that Scizor because that is definetly usefull to outpass Skarmory, Spe def Heatran and some Magnezone. I mention that you definitely need Superpower in my opinion. I Usually run this spread and this does an amazing job:

Scizor @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- Superpower
- Bullet Punch​

Last but not least, I would also opper some minor changes on Rotom-W. I guess the Over-Heat variant could work better. By running Over-Heat, you have great options against Jirachi (this team tends to struggle with sometimes) but also Grass bulky pokemon like Shaymin, Celebi and also Abomasnow even if it is less common. Those grassy pokemon are annoying as fuck because they don't have any real switch in and threaten everyone on the team (expected when you spot the HP as you mentioned). On top of that, HP Ice could be interesting because it can potentially catch Flygon / Gliscor (everyone appreciate their removal on your team but it requires prediction) but also the safest way to stop a Dnite sweep , Shadow Ball is not mandatory here because Tyranitar can Pursuit Rotom and Latias respectively. Furthermore, there are almost no situations when you wanna lock yourself into Shadow Ball. That's why you could try Rotom this way :

Rotom-Heat @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Overheat
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Shadow Ball
- Trick​

That's all for now, great team and gl moving forward

 

[togaquest]

Thank you Emeral, these are all great suggestions and I appreciate the depth at which you thought this out. I will definitely implement them!

I don't have any critique as of now for your inputs, since they all make sense and seem to benefit the team.

I will get back to you after testing!

 

[Excal]

Hi togaquest,

Saw your request a month late, sorry bud.

I want to start by saying I love certain ideas about this team. Pairing Machamp with an offensive SR HydroPert is a really great combination that not many people have thought of. Swampert acts really nicely as a pivot for things like electrics and T-Wave users that would otherwise stunt your offense. I personally have used a very similar Swampert and had a ton of success with it. So I'm going to break this down into a few sections:

I: Issues with the current six
II: The new replacements
III: Revising spreads and movesets
IV: The team at a glance and concluding thoughts

So, without further ado...

I: Issues with the current six

Usually with RMTs, I try to give feedback while keeping the team's structure as similar as possible. With this team, while I will do that, I think that some of these pokemon need to change, as there are some inherent weaknesses that are unavoidable with the current six that you have.

Personally, I never use teams with Scizor as the only steel. Usually teams with this trait can be highly exploited because Scizor does not resist rock, is 4x weak to fire, and is probably the most susceptible steel to Magnezone, meaning any DragMag based team will usually be heavily advantaged vs teams with Scizor as the only steel. On your team, Scizor has no U-Turn to combat this and also does not have Superpower. While on the one hand, keeping Scizor can be the case for some teams, I don't think it fits well with the team overall. You already have priority, and typing wise it doesn't cover too much that the team already covers. So I think it's best to replace this pokemon.

Scarf Rotom is a smart choice to round out your team, as it covers a few loose ends that your team didn't quite scratch with its first five; however, you will lose a ton of momentum with Scarf Rotom, more so usually than with other scarfers that can either pivot or are more powerful naturally. If your Rotom is pursuited, Lucario will clean sweep the rest of your team. Basically, with your style of team, you can't really afford to lose any momentum that you would by using Scarf Rotom, so this should be replaced as well.

Mixed Jirachi is extremely troublesome for the current team as well, as you have little to no counterplay for many viable Jirachi sets. The newly-introduced pokemon will address the issues presented when I discussed Scizor and Rotom, as well as make you much better off vs every Jirachi set.

II: The new replacements

Machamp-based teams usually have to be careful with fighting types, as often you will only have one fighting resist. So long as this is accounted for during the building process, usually you can get away with it. You had both Dragonite and Rotom before, but the new build will use two steel types at the expense of losing a fighting resist, but this will be done in a way where you have sufficient counterplay vs threats like Breloom, Lucario, and Infernape.

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Explosion

The first replacement is an almost-bog-standard Choice Scarf Heatran. This works nicely in addressing the Lucario issue, giving yourself a nice steel to work with (as Machamp and Heatran are often paired together) and also not being susceptible to pursuit. This also gives you some nice counterplay vs Infernape and Breloom, which will compensate for replacing a fighting resist with a second steel (you'll see later). The unique tech here is that this heatran uses Hidden Power Grass instead of the more standard HP Ice/Dragon Pulse. Opposing Swampert was a huge issue with your team before, so this will work well to bait Swampert in and remove it, while also damaging other waters like Starmie and Milotic. The team had a large water issue before as well, so I feel that this is pretty fitting. And lastly, you will do much better in dealing with opposing Jirachi, as this Heatran will do well to handle most of them.

Bronzong @ Macho Brace
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Explosion

The second replacement is a Trick Room Bronzong, which fits incredibly well with a bunch of slow and offensive threats. On top of that, Bronzong does incredibly well vs Jirachi, and gives you even more sufficient counterplay vs things like Infernape. A special mention is the perfect synergy with Swampert, resisting everything Pert is weak to and vice versa. You can set up trick rooms for the Swampert and it will eat away at many stall teams. Tyranitar and Machamp also love the Trick Room, as they will often be slower than the opposing team's Pokemon. TR Zong is a great way to properly check most DDnite and definitely DDtar. It can also be used as counterplay for Gyarados, because they usually have to choose between taunting or attacking, so it's sort of a 50/50 scenario. You need the extra ground-immune as well to check things like Scarf Flygon and not be as weak to hazards. This is maintaining that trait from your version of the team.

III: Revising spreads and movesets

Machamp @ Lum Berry
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Ice Punch
- Bullet Punch
- Payback

People don't really use the old Machamp spread designed to live Azelf's psychic anymore, so you will often not outspeed other Machamps. In fact, nowadays Machamp really needs to outspeed Clefable, so you want a minimum of 158 speed (in case for some reason the clef creeps 4 speed). Another tip for EVing, by the way, is that you almost always want your HP values to be at an odd number. This is so that you can come into hazards like SR and Spikes and live one more time than you normally would (think of putting Zapdos' HP at 248 instead of 252, it's the same principle). I don't see Machamp really needing the extra HP EVs anyway, as it still gets OHKOd by Specstran.

Tyranitar @ Passho Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 64 HP / 224 Atk / 52 SpA / 168 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Pursuit
- Crunch
- Fire Blast
- Superpower

As suggested above, Tyranitar definitely needs Passho Berry on this team to deal with Starmie and other waters like Kingdra a bit better. There are many different spreads for Passho Tar that you can use depending on the team, but I'd say this one works best, maximizing its power and giving a very generous speed creep to support the baiting nature of the Ttar (catching Skarm and even Scizor sometimes). 52 SpA guarantees an OHKO on most looms with Fire Blast. The issue with the spread suggested above is that it is imbalanced in its attack and SpA distributions relative to the moveset. This one has much more of an emphasis on the physical attack, which is needed to not be more susceptible to stall. Pursuit and crunch are both mandatory because you need both to ensure you're good vs Starmie.

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 176 HP / 32 Def / 228 SpA / 12 SpD / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power

Since I'm not really competing anymore, I can afford to release some of my spreads. This one maximizes pert's performance in this role as it does great vs DDtar, and tanks Zapdos extremely well. You will never die to two Specs HP ices after rocks and a layer of spikes, even. You have enough SpA to destroy Nidoqueen and enough speed investment to always outspeed it. After extensive calcs, I concluded that 228 is really all Swampert needs, allowing you to support the speed creep on Nidoqueen, Scizor, and even Vaporeon, as well as hit important defensive landmarks so that you can reliably shut down most Zapdos and Ttars.

Dragonite @ Lum Berry/Yache Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed

I don't like the Dragonite set that you had earlier. If you want to go a bulky Dragonite route, you should definitely use a different spread (so let me know if you would like me to provide that), but I think a simple DDnite with Lum or Yache works great here. The team functions on using subtle quirks and baits to surprise your opponent, and then when enough damage has been done, an offensive and faster Dragonite will be able to clean. With more speed, you will outspeed things like Scarf Ape and Scarf Flygon after two Dragon Dances, as well as outspeed 252 Speed neutral-natured Heatran and many other pokemon speed creeping in the 250-255 range (like Kingdra for example).

IV: The team at a glance and concluding thoughts

This team still plays incredibly aggressively for a bulky offense, and uses the same strategies as the previous team, but with more effectiveness. These pokemon synergize incredibly well together and you'll find that many weaknesses within the team have been patched up, especially the issues with Jirachi, Lucario and even some of the water types. You need to be pretty careful with Infernape, and the fact that there's only one fighting resist can often be tough, but with Swampert's natural bulk, the ability to pivot within the team through Heatran, Pert, and Zong, and the ability to properly conserve momentum, this will often not be a huge issue. Also, like I briefly alluded to, watch out for Gyarados, especially Jolly. With passho tar, scarftran, TR zong, and important priority on Dnite, you should often be okay, but it's definitely one of the largest threats to this team and many teams of this style.

You will find very often that you weaken an opposing team enough to get a nice clean with the Dragonite. Setting up a Trick Room with Bronzong will often be devastating, and if you're patient you will always find your opportunity to do it! Because of the Swampert and Tyranitar, you should be pretty decent vs stalls, boasting the power and ability to deal with Clefable through precise booms, maybe Machamp, and Tyranitar, and melting other pokemon by surprise with the HydroPert.

Hopefully this helped, and hopefully this serves to be a nice transition from the abhorrent DPP ladder into the flourishing competitive scene!

- Excal

Importable

Machamp @ Lum Berry
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Ice Punch
- Bullet Punch
- Payback

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 176 HP / 32 Def / 228 SpA / 12 SpD / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power

Tyranitar @ Passho Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 64 HP / 224 Atk / 52 SpA / 168 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Pursuit
- Crunch
- Fire Blast
- Superpower

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Explosion

Bronzong @ Macho Brace
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Explosion

Dragonite @ Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed

 

[togaquest]

Great input as usual Excal, I will test and get back to you asap