Gen 3 RMT[OU] i think i got it this time =)

ok so after making 2-3 goodish team i decided i wanted a really really solid team that ONLY loses to luck, but has some risky and fun aspects as well.
So..

Salamence @ leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Nature: adamant
EVs:112hp/252att/144 spe
-Dragon dance
-HP flying
-Earthquake
-rock slide

OK i origionally had a CBmence instead but it turned out to be useless when i fed it sds and way less sweeping possibilities, as well as leftovers and hp to help with heracross and co, its more durable and is also sweeps tons better, also his regular attacks dent his counter still. This ALSO works better with Light screen as he gets 2hko'd by most strong ice beam attacks and 3hko'd by weaker once after it allowing dragon dance while the opponent thinks he can ice beam him away.

Magneton @ leftovers
Ability: Magnet pull
Nature: modest
EVs: 72hp/252 speed/184 spA
-Substitute
-HP grass
-Thunderbolt
-Thunder wave

This helps against a ton of pokemon and mainly skarmory, Skarmory IMO is one of the stupidest pokemon in this game due to rediculous type and defense stats, while being able to spike and Roar. So he also Paralyzes if i can predict correct which helps ALOT with my team, HP grass for PERTY.

Heracross @ Salac berry
Ability: swarm
Nature: Adamant
EVs:4def/252 att/252 spe
-substitute
-Megahorn
-swords dance
-HP rock

This pokemon right here has ended so many battles with the rediculous damage of an SD+swarm+stab. This pokemon is even safe to use during Sandstorm, it can still have 5 turns off destruction. The only issue, is if i pass SDs from celebi it cant be on a salamence or anything with a flying move that outspeeds it, I chose HP rock over rock slide because only 2 things stop this pokemon, Missing and weezing slows it down if it comes in after i set up i can still 2hko weezing with megahorn even if it hazes after the first one. A BEAST. (and if i happen to see an alakazam after i set up megahorn can do 2400-2700 damage to it ^^)

Metagross @ leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 144hp/252att/116spe
-Agility
-Meteor Mash
-Earthquake
-HP rock(maybe change to hp grass,explosion or rock slide)

With celebi i can usually lure out a salamence or dugtrio, something of the like, when that happens i can survive a hp flying from it and hp bug due to my celebis max defense. I can then PAss a SD to this beast, which can usually end a game unless i see like forretress or skarmory that i can still dent pretty hard, but they can roar or earthquake metagross which i dont want happening.

Swampert @ leftovers
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 hp/24att/176def/54 spD
-Earthquake
-Rock slide
-rest
-sleep talk

Now i dont really know what to do with this guy, i thought since i have celebi passing SDs around that i should use a more physical swampert, but sometimes it just bites me in the ass, especially if salamence or flygon realize this and can set up or kill swampert pretty easily, but it still helps alot especially since if i can predict zapdos coming in when they think im going to earthquake then i can just rock slide him to hell. So i could forsure use some help with this, he is also my status absorber.

Celebi @ leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature:bold
EVs: 252hp/176def/20spe/60spD
-Light screen(change to calm mind, and then change swampert to mix?)
-Recover
-Swords Dance
-Baton Pass

OK, so here is what my whole team is centered on pretty much, if i get a SD pass off which is fairly easy with these awesome defenses, i can pretty much win, but skarmory and things with haze mess this up, so skarmory is easier to deal with because i can just set up a light screen and after the roar just switch to magneton. But other things such as calm mind roar suicune mess this up a bit and i cant counter it that well if it has icebeam without maybe sacrificing one of my pokemon to get heracross out. Here is the deal, i can either change Light Screen to heal bell, Calm mind, or something like psychic leech seed or hpgrass. Keep in mind i can set up salamence and metagross better with this(heracross the odd time too).

The biggest trouble i get is people with swampert AND blissey to fuck over magneton from trying to kill swampert and my paralyze doesnt really do shit cause he can just aroma or switch. Also Roar suicune hurts. Although usually i only lose if heracross misses 2 megahorns and/or other shit like that.
 
First thing I see is that four of your pokemon are weak to dugtrio,
Next there is the issue of Gyarados, who hurts your team pretty badly.

Fire pokemon will hurt you pretty badly too, especially Houndoom with Fire/Dark.

Spikes are lesser issue since you have Magneton, but Cloyster can still do the job and switch in on Swampert or Salamence so look out for that.
 
Firstly, Dugtrio isnt really an issue, it can kill magneton after i kill skarm, but other than that? if a CB adamant dugtrio comes on my celebi i can still take the hpbug hit and BP out with my swords dance.

Also, is dugtrio coming in on a substitute for heracross? or is he coming in after i have set up where i am faster than him already? Another non-issue. Also, is dugtrio coming in on metagrosses agility or meteor Mash? Another non issue.

And for gyarados, who can he set up on without losing? He can DD on celebi but i can just pass to meta and survive an EQ than kill him with HP rock after i agility. Or he can come in on heracross after i set up as if he comes in while i set up he is getting destroyed as well by HP rock, Swampert Also has rock slide. I wouldnt think gyarados is a problem considering i have 4 pokemon with rock slide/hprock?
 

Lutra

Spreadsheeter by day, Random Ladderer by night.
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Firstly, Dugtrio is an issue. If Dugtrio traps Celebi - even with a Swords Dance - the only thing Celebi can do is baton pass IF it survives. And with sandstream, even if it can do the baton pass, it's likely to die if you get a chance to switch it in. Ok, another situation: Dugtrio manages to switch in at the same time Heracross switches in. Hera will obviously be OHKOed. Now, the opponent has Skarmory and Dugtrio. He/she realises you have Magneton. You go to switch in with Maggy, Dugtrio declares it dead and you then you'll have to deal with spikes also which is enough to even allow Duggy to KO Metagross if they happen to switch in at the same time.

Oh and GYARADOS! Yeah because a Gyarados would always come in and do 1 dd on an attacking Celebi which could do shit to it. What if Gyarados does 2 DDs and then you pass to Metagross which will then... equal dead Metagross?

Also I'd like to point out you seem to have an obsession with rock moves. There's actually a large possibility you won't get to pass from Celebi to Swampert. So therefore Rock Slide will pretty much be pointless and limit your chances of even countering DDmence. Seriously, you need a better reason to use Rock Slide on it than just an SD pass from Celebi.

The difficulty that arises with your team building is the assumption that you seem to think everything will go according to plan. Well, it may against 95% of Netbattle population (That's being conservative). But anyone who has advance battling knowledge will be able to find a way to tear that team apart.

I'm sorry if I appear mean but I expect your next RMTs to be unsuccessful. What you need mostly is experience in this metagame. You have a few choices. You could either ask to be tutored, ask to use experienced player's teams or just be stubborn and gradually get there. I personally chose the latter two. So by all means, ignore me but realise that players will be less likely to rate your teams because they'll look and think there's too many counters. Not enough time has been put into it.

Anyway, good luck. =)
 

dekzeh

B is for BRUTUS
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
Exactly what Marik and Lutra said.

Also, this kind of team (SD Cele BP and Magneton team I mean) has been done to death and done better. Getting an attack on Celebi is a good start. Getting a way to get around Roar Zapdos is another thing to do.

I can easily see Cloyster + Roar LS TB Rest Zapdos 6-0'ing you but it's expected for you to lose against good stall teams anyway.

Oh yeah, cool stuff that rapes this team:
Timid CM Hydro Pump, IB, HP Elec Suicune x). Outspeeds everything and OHKO's everything but Swampert.
Just saying :X
 
Now you are assuming that the player im playing against out predicts me at every chance? Be fair.

Also, read EVs and nature of my pokeon. Celebi WILL live through a Max attack adamant Dugtrio hp bug. The only point you have is the fact that celebi may in fact die after this, but is that not worth it to get a huge sweep as long as they dont have skarmory alive? i can still inflict large amounts of damage to him if he sends skarmory into a metagross attack.

And your gyarados example is not clear to me. I send in celebi, He sends in gyarados to counter celebi as i swords dance, He dragon dances and i switch to metagross. Now are you assuming again that i get out predicted and he dragon dances as i agility, where as i could easily play it safe and HP rock? Also, whats stopping me from sending out salamence or Swampert after the SD?

I have used this team against some more "known" people, and it seems to work against them, even if they have suicune, i send in heracross and suicune gets 2ohkod by swarm stab megahorn (Especially with light screen up). Please Rate it assuming i have equal ability as my opponent and not bring up that i can lose if i get out predicted every chance i get.

Also i do notice the fire hurting alot, i try to predict around it and eventually set up a light screen, as long as im not switching celebi into a fire attack i can light screen up and it can survive. On the other hand, zapdos would be crazy to send in against any of my pokemon on this team due to the physical onslaught thats possibly happening(rock slide/hprock) aside from maybe swampert.

I am very willing to change things to make them work better, even comlpletely remodel pokemon or switching pokemon, if everybody thinks its a good idea.

Over all, id prefer more constructive criticism as opposed to "NO THIS SUCKS IM NOT READING IT"

Thanks ^^

P.S. where do i find these advanced people who will pick this team apart?
 

Lutra

Spreadsheeter by day, Random Ladderer by night.
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
No one's assuming that at all. But Gyara hurts if you don't have a reliable way to counter it - and that is most certainly not a reliable way.

The fact is Dugtrio counters Celebi. Who knows what HP Celebi has? It still does over 90% damage which is guaranteed if it is trapped.

You didn't even state that was the case. HP Fly will definitely KO Swampert before it KOs Gyarados (2dds applied and assuming Gyarados doesn't receive max damage and a crit) and even Salamence will get very damaged.

I am just backing up the points that marik made. Believe me, there's a lot more weaknesses to your team than those.

This is constructive criticism, you seem to think you know more about the metagame than you actually do. To the second part, that's just my opinion. I posted in this topic due to the cheap reply you made at someone pointing out your weaknesses.

[PS line] Just about any very good player who either has previous knowledge of your team or has a team which can effectively counter that type of team.


Overall, I think you give your team building a lot more credit than it's worth. Please don't come up with weak arguments to justify a weak team. I don't think I've named anything to uncommon except maybe the Skarm and duggy combination. So do me a favour, and don't respond to this. I don't want to hear from you "what are the counters?" Just simulate how an OU/BL and maybe even UU could take down your team and if that is likely to occur.
 

Umby

I'm gonna bury you in the ground~
is a Contributor Alumnus
ok so after making 2-3 goodish team i decided i wanted a really really solid team that ONLY loses to luck, but has some risky and fun aspects as well.
So..

Salamence @ leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Nature: adamant
EVs:112hp/252att/144 spe
-Dragon dance
-HP flying
-Earthquake
-rock slide

OK i origionally had a CBmence instead but it turned out to be useless when i fed it sds and way less sweeping possibilities, as well as leftovers and hp to help with heracross and co, its more durable and is also sweeps tons better, also his regular attacks dent his counter still. This ALSO works better with Light screen as he gets 2hko'd by most strong ice beam attacks and 3hko'd by weaker once after it allowing dragon dance while the opponent thinks he can ice beam him away.

Magneton @ leftovers
Ability: Magnet pull
Nature: modest
EVs: 72hp/252 speed/184 spA
-Substitute
-HP grass
-Thunderbolt
-Thunder wave

This helps against a ton of pokemon and mainly skarmory, Skarmory IMO is one of the stupidest pokemon in this game due to rediculous type and defense stats, while being able to spike and Roar. So he also Paralyzes if i can predict correct which helps ALOT with my team, HP grass for PERTY.

I'd go with HP Fire or Ice. Swampert's not really fucking with you. If you want, you could bulk this up and/or make it a sleep talker for a better Zapdos counter.

Heracross @ Salac berry
Ability: swarm
Nature: Adamant
EVs:4def/252 att/252 spe
-substitute
-Megahorn
-swords dance
-HP rock

This pokemon right here has ended so many battles with the rediculous damage of an SD+swarm+stab. This pokemon is even safe to use during Sandstorm, it can still have 5 turns off destruction. The only issue, is if i pass SDs from celebi it cant be on a salamence or anything with a flying move that outspeeds it, I chose HP rock over rock slide because only 2 things stop this pokemon, Missing and weezing slows it down if it comes in after i set up i can still 2hko weezing with megahorn even if it hazes after the first one. A BEAST. (and if i happen to see an alakazam after i set up megahorn can do 2400-2700 damage to it ^^)

I always use Adamant Heracross, but I'd go Jolly here just for extra speed help on getting subs up. Swords Dance, STAB, and Swarm will still get your Megahorn's point across.

Metagross @ leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 144hp/252att/116spe
-Agility
-Meteor Mash
-Earthquake
-HP rock(maybe change to hp grass,explosion or rock slide)

With celebi i can usually lure out a salamence or dugtrio, something of the like, when that happens i can survive a hp flying from it and hp bug due to my celebis max defense. I can then PAss a SD to this beast, which can usually end a game unless i see like forretress or skarmory that i can still dent pretty hard, but they can roar or earthquake metagross which i dont want happening.

Definitely Explosion over HP Rock. Remind me what kind of speed that is. You shouldn't need more than 201 total, since you're using Agility.

Swampert @ leftovers
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 hp/24att/176def/54 spD
-Earthquake
-Rock slide
-rest
-sleep talk

Now i dont really know what to do with this guy, i thought since i have celebi passing SDs around that i should use a more physical swampert, but sometimes it just bites me in the ass, especially if salamence or flygon realize this and can set up or kill swampert pretty easily, but it still helps alot especially since if i can predict zapdos coming in when they think im going to earthquake then i can just rock slide him to hell. So i could forsure use some help with this, he is also my status absorber.

Don't know what to say here. On one hand, Ice Beam is generally better over Rock Slide, but on the other hand, the way your team is currently built forces you to use Rock Slide just so certain things don't fuck you over. Your choice, but if you ever ask me, I go Ice Beam.

Celebi @ leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature:bold
EVs: 252hp/176def/20spe/60spD
-Light screen(change to calm mind, and then change swampert to mix?)
-Recover
-Swords Dance
-Baton Pass

OK, so here is what my whole team is centered on pretty much, if i get a SD pass off which is fairly easy with these awesome defenses, i can pretty much win, but skarmory and things with haze mess this up, so skarmory is easier to deal with because i can just set up a light screen and after the roar just switch to magneton. But other things such as calm mind roar suicune mess this up a bit and i cant counter it that well if it has icebeam without maybe sacrificing one of my pokemon to get heracross out. Here is the deal, i can either change Light Screen to heal bell, Calm mind, or something like psychic leech seed or hpgrass. Keep in mind i can set up salamence and metagross better with this(heracross the odd time too).

Shadow Ball or HP Fighting over Light Screen. An attack-less Celebi is ._.

The biggest trouble i get is people with swampert AND blissey to fuck over magneton from trying to kill swampert and my paralyze doesnt really do shit cause he can just aroma or switch. Also Roar suicune hurts. Although usually i only lose if heracross misses 2 megahorns and/or other shit like that.
If you want to make good BP teams, sometimes you have to get rid of Swampert in fear of Tyranitar. That being said, Snorlax over Swampert might be great.
 
Wow, someone who speaks my language thank you sir.

Now my only worry is, will jolly do enough if i dont get said swords dance? and also, if im slower then the pokemon im subbing against, then i get a free Swords dance when salac activates which is really nice.

Also, metagross is 204 speed, just to outspeed other agiligrosses that i can send him in on, with an SD will ohko.

Ill try Snorlax over pert, should i go curselax with eq?

I was also thinking, Maybe make celebi fast?

Thanks ^^.
 

dekzeh

B is for BRUTUS
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
Curselax will just make you even easier to stall then you already are really.
EQ, Double-Edge, Shadow Ball, Self-destruct go.

Also, since ure replacing Snorlax use HP Fight on Celebi on ur 'absolutely useless move spot'
 
Listen to Umby's suggestions. They're all pretty good, except keep Swampert.

My two cents:
Instead of Heracross put a mixed attacking Zapdos. Zapdos will help with Gyarados and Suicune, and give you one less dugtrio weak pokemon. you could make him a sleeptalker and allow swampert to have a diff set, or you could make zapdos purely offensive.

Offensive Zapdos:
-thunderbolt
-drill peck
-hp fighting / hp grass/ hp ice
-baton pass/ substitute / some other filler

With a swords dance it'll be beast.
 

Umby

I'm gonna bury you in the ground~
is a Contributor Alumnus
If you want to use Snorlax, you can probably go Fire Blast/Body Slam/Selfdestruct/Earthquake. You don't have to make Celebi fast unless you just wanna outrun CB Salamence (or random fire types). Otherwise it's more important to survive Dugtrio's HP Bug.
 
Donny im not willing to get rid of heracross on this team, it wins 8/10 games for me.

I have been using curse lax for a bit, and it seems to be really working and i even beat Lutra with the new team i have(max defense celebi for the win). I might try out that snorlax though.
 

Umby

I'm gonna bury you in the ground~
is a Contributor Alumnus
Might not need Fire Blast if you're using Magneton though. My mistake. Maybe Counter or Shadow Ball. Curse + Selfdestruct might be interesting though, if it's legal.
 
i actually really dislike that snorlax. ^_^. It, doesnt really do enough to anything and can get walled by anything, although it is a wall, i cant seem to find a good time to blow up either. I think im sticking with the eqbody slam curselax for now. It CAN out stall special gengar, and mcgar isnt a big deal. Also this is pretty much my status absorber isnt it?
 

Lutra

Spreadsheeter by day, Random Ladderer by night.
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Just because you beat me doesn't make it great. I know I am good but there are certain factors that lead you to win. First of all, I was very tired and made one or two errors reading you. Second, your team countered pretty well considering No Fazing can't even counter curselax very well. And the third reason was you did a vital critical hit on my Swampert which would otherwise leave to me winning by the same margin you did. I would have gained two extra turns. We were in a pp war situation with our last pokemon - Celebis trying to conserve pp. I only ran out 1 turn before you iirc. That would mean if you ran out before, I could use my last recover to do what you did in effect. Allowing to win with 18%. So therefore you cannot really say it is that great.

Also the game is very much about luck, so please don't justify it as good just because you beat me.

However, I don't think it's too bad. You've just got to recognise the weaknesses in your team. I'm sure any other Heracross in that instance would have finished me off instantly when Salamence fell down. But then I don't know how that handles other teams.
 
I dont think any amount of crits make up for megahorn missing :(. I dont think its THAT great. I think its a fairly solid offensive and explosive team that i want to build on, and i was merely pointing out it was better than team that "An OU/BL and maybe even UU could take down" as you stated (You also flat out called it a "weak team").

And also keep in mind, i did not know anything about your team, but you knew my strategies and all of my pokemon, and their moves (Even their evs!).
 

Lutra

Spreadsheeter by day, Random Ladderer by night.
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Somehow I don't think so. I said I was tired and that means I was in automatic mode, incapable of even realising you were using something similar to that team. What's more, you even modified it. So don't make a bs response. I don't know you're modified team, I wouldn't honestly bother to remember it. The fact is, I did a quick close analysis on your team. And from that, I could see lots of counters cropping up. Calm Minders in particular - which will just wear you down. Snorlax for Swampert certainly isn't going to solve the huge physical weakness from things like Mence. Look, I know I have weaknesses in my argument. I can see that. But they definitely are fewer than in your lame ones. I simply do not have the time to translate an abstract mathematical equation into a wall of text. In my opinion, it is a weak team and there's nothing you can say (without changing it) that could make me think otherwise. You can't afford weaknesses as great as that. Well at least when I team build, that is. So can you please accept that it is difficult to make a good team? And you haven't got one unfortunately. It's not how it plays out on one lucky match, it's how it plays out against a huge variety of teams.
 
Well im not forcing you to change your opinion, dropping heracrosses counter and then sweeping with him was not an accident.

Im not trying to make an unbeatable team, im trying to make a solid Offsensive team which i did regardless of your opinion or view on my team, you can flame it all you want. What matters is the fact that it can wreck, its biggest weakness that i see so far is megahorns acuracy and not having an ideal DD Salamence counter, but is pretty easily delt with.

P.S. I didnt modify my team from what was said in this thread except for you didnt know snorlax's exact EVs but they are the standard curselax evs. And "your team is weak but i was tired" is the best you can come up with?

P.S.S. We dont need to continue argueing if you dont want to, it gives me something to do but, you can stop whenever you like.

Sup^^

Edit: What do people think of Regice over snorlax for another special attacker and wall, and counters DD mence pretty well while packing para support?
 

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