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Use this thread to talk about the RU metagame, mainly focusing on how the tier shapes up after the most recent shifts:
Espeon moved from RU to UU
Barraskewda moved from UU to RU
Floatzel moved from UU to RU
Kilowattrel moved from UU to RU
Tauros-Paldea-Aqua moved from UU to RU
Oricorio-Pom-Pom moved from NUBL to RU
It'd be interesting to also talk about the entire hail package dropping to NU:
Abomasnow moved from RU to NU
Bombirdier moved from RU to NU
Cetitan moved from RU to NU
Dachsbun moved from RU to NU
Losing Espeon is really weird, considering it was seen as one of the better Pokémon in our metagame, so it'll be interesting to see the development of the tier after this. Especially considering we have a whole new set of Pokémon that, as much value as they have individually, form a new core of rain abusers that will terrorize our tier.
While there is no drizzle user that can set rain, the most likely form of rain setter comes in the form of Prankster users such as and with Damp Rock. As far as answers goes, Slowbro and Alomomola would be sound defensive answer to the swift swimmers until you realize Kilowattrel just kinda farms it not to mention it gets weather ball so ground types are a fake answer. can be a decent answer to rain abusers although you can easily have it on your own manual rain team to ensure you stay ahead in the mirror match.
Do I think they'll stay? Not really sure given snow could at least in theory compete with rain to some capacity.
I'm not sure how to rank half the new drops right away, floatzel and Barraskewda will depend on whether Klefki can carry rain teams, I think both of them are outclassed as breakers outside of rain. Barraskewda is slightly better due to its speed, but Bruxish and Tauros are just better water type breakers.
Tauros-water seems like it will outclass tauros-fire on choice band and scarf sets, it's got a slightly better STAB pair and aqua jet for priority. I think that the bulk up or defensive sets are better with tauros though, due to its burn immunity and will o wisp. If I were to put it on the VR based off my intuition I would put it in A+, though I would also put fire tauros in A+ a bit below water.
Kilowattrel seems really good. The tier doesn't have many good flying types, and wattrel is a good flying type with two amazing abilities. Competitive would be good if there were defoggers to punish (it might be good in the future) but volt absorb is a big deal. It's a safe switch in to rotom-mow (it has roost tostay healthy after taking a leaf storm) and volt absorb means it hard-walls bellibolt. And having the same typing as oricorio means that it can serve as a check to Flamigo if you invest in bulk. I don't think Wattrel needs to invest fully in speed anyways, so it can afford to go down to just above Salazzle with 0 consequence.
Ahh, nothing like some good ol'tier changes. Let's see what chang....
WTF just happened????
Like, even without a drizzle mon manual rain looks scary af, specially considering the only mons stopping water spam are vaporeon, tatsugiri and.... cacturne, apparently? Funnily enough, I expect Abomasnow stocks to rise now even though it just dropped just to limit rain abuse on certain teams XD
Anyways, the drops that excite me the most of the bunch are floatzel and budget zapdos, though having a non fire type intimidate user also sounds pretty dope. Also, for those who want a scarf gard check in rain:
Floatzel (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wave Crash
- Ice Spinner
- Aqua Jet
- Liquidation
With an adamant nature you outspeed base 100s by 1 point while also beating any trace gard that thinks it can be a good rain check. You'll probably just spam Wave crash and liquidation, and any cheeky slowbros and aqua tauros can be dealt by kilowatrel or good team planning.
Also, our only remaining magic bouce user is Hattrem, which is kinda sad (where's Xatu when you need it the most? ;-;)
Truthfully, i think rain is going to be comparable to SS rain, having to manually set it with abusers so frail, gardevoirs expected ascension, and us having slow pivot = komala, plus no flip turn? it's gonna be a pain to get these abusers on the field as is without stuff like eject button or pack, which not only is a one time use, takes away from slapping damp rock on your setters. Suffice to say, i think rain will be fine after messing with it a bit
Hello hello, laddering part of RULT is over so I thought I'd go over some observations or sets I thought were interesting.
- First mon I saw drop and was hyped about:
Kilowattrel @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Tera Blast
- U-turn / Volt Switch
- Roost / Hurricane
In my opinion, the best set currently for this. Tera Blast water does so much for it that I think its a shame to drop, unless you are running it in Rain in which case you should change a bit anyway. Besides stomping on the ground types and stuff like Rotom-Heat, it also provides you with a winning matchup vs Bellibolt, instead of this hilarious awkward staredown that is just lame. You do need to keep roost for that though, but Hurricane is an option if you are worried about more offensive matchups, sometimes I just see that flying stab would benefit more since Roost is nearly impossible to click. Uturn is really preferable I think since not counterable, but Volt can be used if the mindset is well who really cares about grounds I'm just gonna tera on them.
- Second mon that basically saved me the entire time:
Tauros-Paldea-Aqua @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wave Crash
- Close Combat
- Bulk Up
- Trailblaze
Oh Tauros, did you solve basically any problem I had. Defensively its just better than Blaze, and imo not close at all. This more solid defensive profile also benefits since you don't really have to invest on defence, and can capitalize how good it is offensively. And it is, very very good. Ok sure, Slowbro exists. but offence doesn't carry Slowbro, and offence has next to no answer to this at all since you pick up boosts on way too many mons. Tera Wave Crash has silly power too, but its not really good for survival since your spd still omega sucks vs fairy types. Earthquake is an option for Croak, though +1 CC its a pickle for it (even moreso if you're like hey I can tera fight too), and Wild Charge does hit Slowbro, but it also hits yourself, and you are already doing that with your stab so.....
But amazing drop honestly, both of them in fact. It's really neat when a tier drops stuff that is so niche but then diversifies below since it just can do so much more. Well it's really neat when UU drops anything honestly.
- Mudsdale is definitely the premier rocker now, but it's still somewhat close. Palossand is under appreciated and I got good things from it, but its matchups can get a bit more ugly at time. However, recovery is recovery, and allows a defensive tera to just work better. Horse though, its just very reliable and fits incredibly well on a greater variety of teams. Whiscash is still the gold standard for HO teams, though I have seen some Krookodiles but... Idk I am really not feeling it. I have been on the BU Krook hype train for a while, and I still am, I think its a much more interesting way of using what it can do. Like sure, it gets taunt so I see why people think omg rocker, but then you have two attacks and its so mid offensively and defensively typing wise that your options are so limited. Oh and wow has Bronzong fallen off I think I saw more Bombirdiers.
- Speaking of random dark types that I think are good:
Mabosstiff @ Choice Band
Ability: Stakeout
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Tera Blast
- Double-Edge
- Play Rough
Bruh not only does this hit extremely hard on the switch, it also cheeses so bad with defence drops that if you take around 60 and technically should live a new hit but now well they don't. Coverage is very whatever and I put tera steel which did work for me, but like honestly you are clicking crunch pretty much every time.
There's multiple things here that make this mon probably the best dark type in the tier on a pure offensive level. First, it completely wrecks stall. You can't realistically keep switching into stakeout hits unless you spam the frick out of protect and you have a max def Sylveon. If you go to it without scouting. Double-Edge always kills that after rocks, and even Crunch necessitates you to recover after one hit. Second, you get a lot of panic teras, particularly from dark weak mons with recovery like Slowbro or Palossand. While this will be annoying at first, it offers a lot of possiblities as their original typing is generally key in holding off multiple threats. All of a sudden, Psyshock Slowbro is very much in trouble vs your BU Tauros, for one. Having a way to force premature teras out of necessity just helps a lot here in making game plans, and I found Dog one of the best at doing so. Lastly, it doesn't require much to be in a good spot to be threatening. All it needs is to be in a position to force a switch, and dark as a stab has always done this with minimal effort as its just way too good an option on its own. Weavile has a lot of upside to be threatening, but how often do you see it actually happen? Just too many conditions. Krookodile can snowball with Moxie, but all its moves are relatively easy to hold off, and BU needs time. Bombirdier is epic af no slander of this mon
Its still relatively mid due to uh, beyond poor utility outside of offence. Traiblaze is funny but very much worse than any other good mon with trailblaze (Heracross / Tauros first here), and its speed is quite good but sometimes incredibly insufficient.
- On a dog I found way overrated... Arcanine. I want to believe. I really do want to believe Tera Normal Espeed is the future. But I am sorry, its just not. Rocks weak is a major pain and boots will do zero damage. Using Flare Blitz on a Tauros when your team is all out offence just means Tauros wins, and its coverage sucks. Defensively, even with intimidate CB is nowhere near sturdy enough to work out on bulky teams, unlike either Tauros or even Krook sometimes. And even though it teras into a normal type, it still sucks vs ghosts, which might be the most tragic point of it all. I think Zard is way more cheesy but makes more sense on the teams I saw Arcanine in, and honestly I still really think Lycanroc - Mid would be a better option too.
I'll add things if they keep in mind, but to add some quick points: Flamigo is amazing, Hariyama is also amazing (is it broken? Could be a discussion on this! is Rotom-Heat broken??), I still want to kick Quiver Dance out of the tier. Dancer as an ability is turbo lame, and Feliburn your time to post.
I don't have much to say besides what Evi already said, but expanding a bit on these 2 cause why not. Aqua Tauros has much more versatility in its sets because it also has access to Aqua Jet, meaning you can run the same BU set with priority, or even slap a Choice Band w/ tera electric for Slowbro, and hit everything super hard. Kilowattrel is a cool addition cause even outside of rain it's just doing usual pivot stuff. Honestly, I thought I could get away with this mon as an offensive Flamigo answer, but it's barely a check cause it's super frail. I really like the utility it provides tho.
As much as I hate to admit it, Hariyama is incredibly busted. BD sets, especially on more offensive teams, just force a lot of positioning that require either to trade a mon and a half to revenge Yama, or you get straight up swept. You also have to guess between Thick Fat and Guts, in case you want to overheat or will-o-wisp it once it uses the steel tera.
The quiver dancers are as annoying as ever. The Oricorio are straight up annoying, while Frosmoth imo crosses a bit further beyond that. You have to play a very specific way (or have a Blissey) to not get swept by these once they start setting up. They can tera ground to hit our steels, and prevent thunder wave from hindering them. I find it easier to deal with them with more offensive presence rather than defensive one, because honestly they really aren't the most bulky of Pokémon. But one bad positioning and stuff gets real dicey, especially if they are paired with a Hariyama that's ready to clean up.
I don't personally think Toxtricity has fallen off, but it definitely has seen less usage, and in the few games I've seen it, it's never really the deciding mon of the game. It reminds me of gen 6 Exploud in RU, where it could hit the entire tier super hard, but people just learned to play around it. Be it Blissey, Palossand, or just hard hitting mons that happen to be faster, Toxtricity has been kept in check relatively well in the tier. I think this is a good topic of discussion cause I know other people think it's broken.
Is it me or has rain been decently manageable? We have really decent setters in Klefki, lead Primeape, Sableye, and even some of the breakers themselves, but the fact remains that it's still manual rain. You either have to switch into something or sack the set up mon, OR use eject button but not be Damp Rock, giving you less rain turns overall. I still think Floatzel for sure has some free matchups where it can just sweep you easily, but so far it seems like a team structure that's not that hard to adapt to. I think during RULT playoffs we'll see this archetype evolve a bit more, so maybe we end up seeing the definitive broken rain team, but so far it's been not as bad as I thought originally.
Some underrated mons that I think ppl are sleeping on a bit
Weavile is honestly a really cool Pokémon. I've been using Swords Dance with tera dark for a stronger Night Slash, and you'd be surprised by how easy it has been to clean with it. Zoroark I think it's starting to pick up, but Knock Off + U-turn + that speed tier is just great. Passimian is a funny one cause Flamigo is like the best offensive mon in the tier, and it does everything pass can do except for Knock Off. Something I've liked about Passimian tho is how nicely it punishes Intimidate and Defog in comparisson to Flamigo. I see a lot of Krookodile and Tauros around, and not many teams appreciate a boosted scarf Passimian just clicking around. It can even use Knock Off to hinder Slowbro, which Flamigo can do nothing but tera fly brave bird and hope for the best. I think it is able to keep a niche even with Flamigo in the tier.
The top dogs
This is a weird paragraph to end up on, but I think it's important to say that you should be prepping for these 5 almost every time. These are like the 5 most common mons in the tier (and for a good reason), and your teams should all aim to get past them. There's a team with like Slowbro, Bliss and Muds in the same team, and it's surprisingly annoying to see a team just be unable to break past them. Blissey is probably an outlier for this paragraph, cause you usually see it in more semi stall/full stall oriented teams, but the other 4 can be basically used in almost every archetype available.
Overall it's actually a fun meta, and I really want to see the direction it takes during RUPL.
I don't personally think Toxtricity has fallen off, but it definitely has seen less usage, and in the few games I've seen it, it's never really the deciding mon of the game. It reminds me of gen 6 Exploud in RU, where it could hit the entire tier super hard, but people just learned to play around it. Be it Blissey, Palossand, or just hard hitting mons that happen to be faster, Toxtricity has been kept in check relatively well in the tier. I think this is a good topic of discussion cause I know other people think it's broken.
My opinion on Toxtricity is that it absolutely excels at kicking you when you're down. If you have a hazard advantage, your physical wall is healthy and your team is full of fast offensive threats then toxtricity is fine to deal with, but the moment you are falling behind and need to click defog or a recovery move, toxtricity will punish you hard for that. And due to toxtricity's power it can often force sac wars which will always favor the currently advantaged player. Palossand works as a counter until they click snarl, then it's removed from the game forever, and it just so happens that the toxtricity player feels safer to click snarl when they have an advantage and can afford to make predictions. And running Palossand also feels like putting yourself at a disadvantage when compared to its competition for ground types like Mudsdale or Krookodile or its competition for physical walls like Slowbro. None of our steels really beat toxtricity, since revavroom and klefki can't damage or status it and Bronzong is Bronzong. Copperajah is the steel that can switch into boomburst the best, but it still gets worn down and has at most 2 chances to switch in.
i was ordered 2 write, id say ill keep it short but i know i wont
1st off, the brokens:
all 3 of these mons are v restricting 4 building atm n i cant say id miss any of them if they were gone. i wont speak 2 much on yama as feli summed it up quite well already; it's incredibly hard 2 play around bd without losing 2+ mons or just losin the game outright, especially when u factor in the possibilities of thick fat vs guts on bd and the devastating immediate power of flame orb, but the other 2 are more controversial takes so i will expand on how i feel abt them a bit more
toxtricity essentially doesnt have any counters, which immediately is a bad sign but not inherently the tell of a broken pokemon. it has a couple factors that push it over the edge 4 me - first and most pressing is the dichotomy between dealin w shift gear n specs/boosting item sets. given specs' immense power, often times one will find themselves throwing a random weakened mon in front of it in order 2 sac and gain momentum with an offensive threat of some kind, but this play can get punished w the end of the game should it decide 2 shift gear and u dont have 1 of the very few answers (which is pretty much just palossand, blissey, and like, haze cryogonal - all of which can lose under certain circumstances as well). thus u have 2 play a very delicate balancing act until u know 4 sure which set the toxt is rockin, and it's not always that easy 2 tell the difference given specs also serves as a late game "cleaner" in its own right thanks 2 its passable bulk, solid defensive typing and ability 2 trade favorably vs the majority of our offensive threats.
this brings me 2 the 2nd thing i think makes toxt unbearable - ppl harp on about how it's frail and hard 2 get on the field, but that... isn't actually particularly true. its ability 2 absorb tspikes/toxic, resistances 2 common offensive typings in fight/flying/elec/steel/grass/fairy, and respectable speed 4 a breaker of its monumental power make it not that hard 2 position in front of common offensive mons like mowtom, flamigo, kilowattrel, car and oricorio, and that speaks nothin of its ability 2 abuse the hell out of basically anything that's slower and not a resist. klefki, drag, belli, olive, badalugg, sylv, slowbro... toxt can abuse a LOT of things w skillful doubles or correctly predicted switches on recovery moves and weak resisted attacks without being 2 heavily punished 4 guessing wrong since it often doesn't just instantly fold 2 attacks from mons like these. and that says nothing of its great synergy w uturn users like the aforementioned flamigo, or passimian, bombird, vespiquen, plus a few other things. and if that weren't enough, it also serves as a perpetual motion machine itself since every elec immune bar palo is terrified of gettin vaporized by a specs boomburst; this allows it 2 spam volt w impunity vs flimsy checks like bliss and cryo, and give ample opportunity 2 the uturning friends i mentioned previously 4 a terrifying vortex where one wrong turn could mean u lose something pivotal 2 ur gameplan instantly. overall, toxt is just a huge stressor on both building and playing and i find it deeply unhealthy for the tier even if its usage has declined from last month.
the oven is in a funnily similar situation, in that it's so hugely threatening and has so few switchins it's pretty much impossible not 2 surrender momentum 2. the list of decent switchins 2 fire elec coverage is limited 2 dragalge, blissey, coalossal (and im barely counting this cus i just watched np discharge beat a full hp coal literally less than 2 hrs ago) and... itself. everything else either gets exploded by overheat, boosted on and *then* exploded like altaria, nacl and the defensive fairies, or volted on for free momentum n big dmg. and the 3 switchins i mentioned b4 also just get volted on lol... they just dont take that much dmg from it. add this 2 its solid speed tier jumping the crowded 80-85s, very useful defensive utility and lack of common weaknesses, and very customizable moveset - trickscarf np, np double elec stab, np wisp, and sub are all usable and dealt with differently - and it becomes a major headache 2 account for in the builder and very difficult 2 play around without it nabbing a ko or constantly grabbin momentum and puttin u on the back foot. callin it suspectworthy may b a bit ahead of the curve, but im certainly not the 1st 2 complain abt it in the ru discord n im not likely 2 b the last either.
with that said, the reason im not including mowtom alongside w oven is though mow is also supremely annoying and not particularly easy 2 check, its list of switchins is still notably higher - the four mons i mentioned as answers 2 heat are also good in2 mowtom, alongside olive, pomcorio, kilo, and cryo; it can also be baited in2 doing "minimal" dmg by absorbing leaf storm w our steels, and it's easier 2 revenge thanks 2 being weak 2 poison, ice, bug, and neutral 2 flying which lets migo, lazzle, weav, and uturn users put much more pressure on it when it's trying 2 np. still a very strong mon but not quite as overbearing as heat is atm imo.
next id like 2 quickly highlight a couple of mons i think deserve more discussion ()
kilo is rly rly good imo (see a trend? electrics r kinda busted as shit rn). its blazing speed lets it check a lot of other offensive mons and also makes it difficult 2 check itself, since it gets off 2 attacks vs basically everything which allows it 2 weaken smth and pivot on the subsequent recovery move or comfortably 2hko threats that the other elecs would b scared of staying in on like krook and tauros. its bulk is a tad bit disappointing, but its speed also serves it well here as it can afford 2 invest in bulk at the expense of power while still keeping ahead of salazzle. its moveset is pretty customizable asw, pretty much the only thing u need is thunderbolt which allows 4 sets like 2atks uturn roost, sub endeavor, 3atks uturn, and even tbolt/terablast/fillers. im not sure how sold i am on dropping hurricane, personally, but others have found success w such a set and having tried it a small amount myself i can see how it could operate well
if uve been in the ru discord uve seen (or not seen, apparently??) me speak on this mon. gen 9 gave it the 2 main tools it was missin from big sibling gengar in np and focus blast, as well as gifting it toxic spikes alongside its evolution. now it no longer has 2 worry abt how it's going 2 muscle past darks, as focus blast makes pretty quick work of the majority of them thanks 2 its solid dmg output. this lets it function pretty well as a devastating early game breaker with np, or a midgame annoyance w sets like sub and wisphex. the lower speed tier compared 2 missy doesnt rly matter except vs tauros or missy itself, whereas the secondary stab and higher dmg output lets it stand out well on its own merits. the two sets ive tried & recommend so far i'll put below:
Haunter @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball / Hex
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast
- Substitute / Will-O-Wisp
sub 3atks lets u help mitigate its poor bulk and tendency 2 b revenged easily while still keepin the majority of its offensive output. ive used hex without wisp on teams that have a lot of status spam like keys, glare conda, tspikes rev/skunk, discharge belli, etc. but wisphex obviously works just fine asw
Haunter @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Haunter Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 374-442 (94.9 - 112.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
i dont think i needa explain anything else np lo just fuckin explodes everything lol
ive considered scarf as a neat cleaner/rker that has more power n coverage than missy and a useful filler not named trick so u dont have 2 get rid of ur scarf every game 2 b useful vs fat but havent actually tried it, any1 readin this should give it a spin and see what u think
another mon that got some nice new tools that were kinda lost in all the hype of new gen ridiculousness, our old lowtier friend skunk gained tspikes and gunk shot this gen givin it much needed power and some nice utility 2 boot. ive been liking it quite a bit, its unique defensive profile is always welcome as a ghost resist and psychic immune that's not weak 2 fighting or fairy, asw as the utility of absorbing tspikes and a pretty chunky stab sucker 2 help stave off the offensive onslaught of the gen. the 84 speed tier is also cool since u get the jump on tatsu and bombird but running jolly kinda blows powerwise, adamant sucker is quite nice so im not sure what nature i prefer. i initally just spotted it as a pretty reliable offensive espeon switchin back when it was in the tier since all our steels were slow or the car, but it consistently suprised me w its utility even after espy left so i think its prolly just a solid mon on its own merits.
Skuntank @ Black Sludge / Leftovers
Ability: Aftermath
Tera Type: Poison / Dark / Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 72 SpD / 184 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Sucker Punch
- Toxic Spikes
- Taunt
if u run adamant like i ended up doin u dont need 2 be any faster than modest toxt since everything in the 80 speed tier is running +spe. non scarf garde and +spe bombird are both pretty rare so u rly only miss out on tatsu, and that takes upwards of 60 from adamant sucker/has a good chance just die 2 adamant gunk so u trade favorably w it anyway, whereas jolly gunk wont ohko tatsu unless ur the luckiest bastard on the planet
this mon is pretty customizable as always; crunch, toxic, boom, and different items like poison barb/blackglasses, boots or shuca could work, tho 2 get the most out of it u prolly wanna use tspikes so it can force progress or awkward positioning
conda landed in c on the vr, which i think was a bit of a snub tbh cus this mon can be a pretty huge pain. glare is just a broken ass move and it's rly hard 2 kill thanks 2 rest, which allows it 2 run helmet 2 punish migo uturns like palo does. it doesnt particularly appreciate kilo/rotoms/pomcorio bein able 2 switch in freely and runnin a rock move defeats the purpose, so i dont think of it quite as highly as the other 2 underrated mons. despite that i see it as a nice antimeta choice, since it helps in the balance v balance mu much more than the other grounds by glaring stuff like olive, bro, opposing fat grounds, and aqua tauros that the other fat grounds tend 2 falter vs.
Sandaconda @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Shed Skin
Tera Type: Fairy / Poison / Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Glare
- Rest
88 spe puts u above yama just in case of max spe flame orb but it's not rly necessary
i put these 4 2gether cus they all represent one thing: rain. i think rain is definitely slept on atm, despite manual setters being mandatory the power we have behind the rain is pretty difficult 2 manage since our water resists are near nonexistent. if u load a team without slowbro (hard for some ppl, i know) or mola floatzel is basically guaranteed 2 kills vs u, and ive even muscled thru a couple bro by twaving it then spamming tera wave crash. bruxish also has an absurdly strong wave crash but without the blazing speed, and it can use sd 2 become a hugely threatening sweeper that garde cant trade swift swim off of that also powers thru even the toughest resists. but the true key 2 rain atm is not either of these or any of the other rain demons we know of, but instead revavroom. now im sure u wonder how exactly the car is a pivotal piece 2 rain... well, it does learn rain dance n ive seen a couple ppl try it, it seems decent enough as a rain setting slow pivot but klefki has spikes and twave and a priority rain that overall facilitates the style better imo; the true key 2 revs strength on rain is shift gear. shift gear helps turn the tides on rains biggest headache, gardevoir, and using tera water turns it into a pseudo rain sweeper in its own right while also providing a hugely scary late game sweeper independent of rain that just so happens 2 benefit from float breakin down physical walls. ive unironically had more win screens w rain land on the car than anything else ive used, which is kinda funny in a way. actually, now that i think about it, i feel like i see shift gear car on the win screen when it shows up more often than not.... hmm
against my better judgement, i'll post the team ive been using here so others can mess around w it. as much as i dont rly want 2 see more actual decent rain teams running around id hate 4 ppl 2 continue sleeping on what i think is actually a very potent playstyle rn
Klefki @ Damp Rock
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Play Rough
- Rain Dance
Kilowattrel @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder
- Weather Ball
- Hurricane
- U-turn
i tried brux in the tatsu slot and just happened 2 find tatsu more appealing w the way i had the team set up. tatsu has a spare slot 2 click emergency rain dance, both 2 boost its own power or die in front of a slower mon and give a free switch 2 float, but they serve essentially the same purpose just on opposite sides of the attacking spectrum. whiscash is a very annoying lead field condition setter, and actually was what i used when i tried sun last month; froslass prolly works similarly but u miss out on bein able 2 set rocks reliably cus nothin else fits that can rly serve that purpose. the tera water tera blast kilo set could work here asw, but i like tera stabs more; might as well play in2 your strengths. plus all the teras being water or ghost would look lame imo
and finally, rapidfire thoughts on a couple meta mons
not broken or even close. actually i think it kinda blows. ppl seem 2 forget that it's a base 65 mon w awful defensive qualities unless it teras which makes it kinda easy 2 revenge w offensive threats. almost all our scarfers body it just by switching directly in, weavile can also hard switch on it and win the 1v1 with cb night slash koing after basically any prior chip and lo being able 2 night slash > ice shard for the ko. and if it does tera and blow away ur defensive switchin it is still super susceptible 2 priority, weav blows it up obv, tauros/brux/float ajet all chunk it heavily, thick fat bd yama can bd in front of +1 and win the exchange easily, stab sucker punches do a lot.... feli certainly had it right when he said offensive pressure is the way 2 go cus it's not particularly hard 2 beat thru that method. also haze cryogonal dumpsters it pls use that mon
imo the best steel type for offense unless ur usin rajah. the cars meh special bulk and psychic neutrality can tend 2 make buildin w it awkward, and it cant do much outside of pivot when u run in2 opposing cars or toxt. keys having spikes makes it more palatable in2 opposing steels since any time they come in on u theyre liable 2 get chipped heavier and heavier, twave is a godsend 4 facilitating offensive nonsense, and while it can b a bit shaky vs some of our setup threats like pomcorio, toxt and tera ground stuff it's not like the car is stopping any of those things very well anyway. keys just always puts in work every game n especially w espeon gone it's very hard 2 keep it from making progress
felis right use this mon it's good knock is op
id say this is the best mon in the tier, it's quite literally impossible 2 keep this pokemon from doing things between its solid bulk and typing, uturn, unblockable base 115 cc and very desirable 90 speed tier. id argue its likely the primary rsn bro garners as much usage as it does cus thats basically the only way 2 keep it from leaving u at a net negative any time it hits the field
dunno why nobody is using this pokemon; np tera being uncounterable aside, it kept basically all the op moves and u can rly never tell what it's running until it's crippled smth. the downside is since it has so many broken moves u kinda dunno what 2 run on it. im sure eventually somebody will come up w 4 slots that makes everybody rue the day it was invented
use tera water not ground pls it's so much more busted that way i promise (edit: tera water also wins vs terad frosmoth unlike tera ground so even more rsn 2 do so)
Hello, it is I, resident procrastinator eifo, who is here to grace you with my analysis of the state of contemporary RU. As many of you already know, I am not too fond of the current state of the meta. I have already shared most of my thoughts in the discord server, but I figured that I might as well share them in a more structured form here on forums as well. This post was supposed to be short, but needless to say I am not known for my brevity. Nevertheless, I have structured it into separate segments such that it should be easy to navigate and skip the parts which you do not find interesting. I have covered a broad range of topics, so I assume at least some of it should be of interest.
The main issue with SVRU
Let me be clear: my main gripe with this meta is not that we have a set of absurdly broken elements, but rather that we have a plethora of set up mons and breakers that are in themselves either unambiguously unhealthy or close to unhealthy, such as Hariyama, Frosmoth, Rotom-H, Rotom-Mow, Primeape, Toxtricity, Oricorio, Cetitan, Floatzel, Barraskewda, Revavroom, etc. The sheer number of these hard-to-cover threats is bad enough in itself. Unfortunately, we also have to reckon with tera, which exacerbates the issue by letting mons break their traditional answers or even use them as set up fodder. As a result, we are left with a meta in which counterplay is more fleeting and less solid than in past metas, in the sense that what used to be outright counters now become merely situational checks, while what used to be solid checks may suddenly lose 1v1, thereby making it difficult to navigate the meta both from a building- and from a playing perspective. This all has its root in terastallizing, which is the fundamental underlying issue.
Building in SVRU
With respect to building, defensive counterplay is far less reliable than it used to be. You cannot necessarily rely on a spdef Revavroom to counter Sylveon, or on a Thunder Wave Blissey to counter Frosmoth, or on Kilowattrel to revenge Hariyama, as tera ground Sylveon OHKOs Vroom, while tera ghost Sub QD Moth uses Bliss as set up fodder, and tera steel Yama sets up on Kilo. Consequently, you are forced to rely on offensive counterplay to a much greater degree than in e.g. SM, SS, or ORAS. I think that this is unhealthy. Of course, relying on offensive counterplay is not necessarily a bad thing in itself. Indeed, this is what offensive teams are forced to do in pretty much any meta. However, I believe that the player should be given the choice to determine for themselves to what degree they wish to rely on offensive versus defensive counterplay. At the moment, I do not think that this is the case. On the contrary, this meta heavily favors offensive teams at the expense of more defensive teams, due to the aforementioned issue pertaining to the reduced efficacy of defensive counterplay. While it is not necessarily a negative thing for offensive teams to be better than defensive teams, I believe that the power difference is simply to large at the moment, thereby forcing people to use offense, whether they like it or not.
Playing SVRU
With regard to playing, the game rewards a risk-prone approach to the game to a greater degree than before, while it punishes the risk-averse approach to the game which relies on long-term planning, scouting, and positioning. Given that defensive counterplay is not as reliable as it used to be, you do not necessarily have the option to make use of your defensive tools to scout out the sets of your opponent, gather information, and slowly position yourself to your advantage. Instead, you are often forced to make assumptions, take big risks, and hope that it pays off. As a result, SVRU has an excessive amount of guessing games. For instance, you cannot necessarily afford to hard switch from a Blissey into a Slowbro to scout the Yama set, as a BD Yama would simply beat Bro 1v1, either with Knock or with tera steel BP if the Bro clicks tera fairy. Likewise, you cannot necessarily afford to click Salt Cure with your Nacklstack in front of a Frosmoth, as a Sub QD tera ground/ghost Moth can sub on Nacl and use it as set up fodder. And perhaps worst of all, if you have a Sableye or a Rotom-H versus something like a Cetitian, clicking Wisp can lose you the game if they happen to be tera fire. These are just some of the myriad of messy interactions in SVRU. In the next few sections, I will cover some of the most outstanding interations more in-depth. But for now, suffice to say that the tier is too unpredictable for my liking.
An in-depth look at questionable elements in SVRU
Cyanize provided an analysis of both Rotom-Heat and Toxtricity which is more than adequate, hence I will not bother to go recite the very same points. Suffice to say that although I do not believe that either of them are broken, i.e. that a standard team with a Rotom-H or Toxtricity is likely to be at a significant advantage versus a standard team without either of them, I do believe that they have an unhealthy effect on the meta.
With regard to rain abusers such as Floatzel, Bruxish, and Barraskewda, I need some more time to gather my thoughts. They just dropped a short while ago, and I need some more time to play with and versus them to gather more experience before I make up my mind.
However, with respect to Vroom, I believe that Shift Gear sets are presently overlooked and in fact rather difficult to handle. This “difficult to handle”-part is solely because of tera. Without tera, it would not be much of an issue, as mons such as Krookodile, Mudsdale, Palossand, Sandaconda, Whiscash, Camerupt, Sableye, Tauros-Aqua, Tauros-Blaze, Coalossal, Arcanine, and Crocalor could reliably switch into it and beat it 1v1, whereas mons such as Salazzle, Rotom-H, Charizard, Slowbro, and Vaporeon would be able to consistently beat it 1v1. Granted, they would not be able to switch into it comfortably, as the former three are OHKOd by a boosted Gunk Shot, whereas the latter two are 2HKOd by a boosted Gunk and only do about half in return with Surf or Psychic. With tera, however, it becomes rather difficult to deal with. Its aforementioned answers suddenly struggle to deal with it, as Tera Blast Water outright OHKOs all of them in rain after a Shift Gear. The only exception is Tauros-Aqua and Crocalor, both of which take 70. Further, the former needs to be banded CC in order to OHKO in return, whereas the latter is forced to Roar because clicking Wisp into a Lum Berry Vroom loses the game. Likewise, a Sableye, Bro, Klefki, Sandaconda, or Altaria would also be left dead in the ditch if they attempt to para or burn the Lum Vroom. Granted, you could hard Mudsdale and tera steel, but unless it is at full it would still be 2hkod by Tera Blast Water in rain and it only does half in return. As such, it is often forced to Roar, which lets Vroom get out of the situation more or less unscathed but with sufficient chip on Muds. Similarly, one could attempt to go hard Sableye on SG to Encore it, but it bears mentioning that Tera Blast 2HKOs it, while tera dark simply uses it and Klefki as set up fodder. This situation is far from ideal, and it is entirely because of tera.
252+ Atk Tera Water Revavroom Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros-Paldea-Aqua: 195-229 (67 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tauros-Paldea-Aqua Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Water Revavroom: 286-337 (95 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Water Revavroom Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mudsdale in Rain: 438-516 (108.4 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Water Revavroom Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Steel Mudsdale in Rain: 219-258 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tera Water Revavroom Tera Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Steel Mudsdale in Rain: 145-172 (35.8 - 42.5%) -- 94.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Tera Steel Mudsdale Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Water Revavroom: 144-169 (47.8 - 56.1%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Water Revavroom Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand in Rain: 410-486 (109.6 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Water Revavroom Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye in Rain: 262-310 (86.4 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Revavroom Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye in Rain: 177-208 (58.4 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Revavroom Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 118-139 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Water Revavroom Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Klefki in Rain: 330-388 (103.7 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Revavroom Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tauros-Paldea-Blaze in Rain: 390-462 (110.1 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Water Revavroom Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Whiscash in Rain: 393-463 (92.6 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Revavroom Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 286-337 (118.1 - 139.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Revavroom Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 373-439 (125.5 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Revavroom Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salazzle: 228-268 (82.3 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Muscle Band Revavroom Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salazzle: 250-294 (90.2 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Revavroom Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salazzle: 296-348 (106.8 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Water Revavroom Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 204-241 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Revavroom: 135-159 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Water Revavroom Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 398-352 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Vaporeon Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Revavroom: 145-172 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Vaporeon Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Revavroom: 72-86 (23.9 - 28.5%) -- 97.3% chance to 4HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Water Revavroom Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Unaware Crocalor in Rain: 230-272 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Revavroom Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Revavroom: 147-174 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tera Water Revavroom Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Revavroom: 220-259 (60.4 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Frosmoth is another mon which is difficult to prep for as a result of tera. It should normally be losing to Revavroom, Bronzong, Blissey, Copperajah, Rotom-H, Salazzle, Tauros-Blaze, Coalossal, Crocalor, Arcanine, and Magneton. With tera, however, this need not be the case. Naclstack and Blissey suddenly turn into set up fodder for tera ghost Moth, which subs and boosts in their face. In fact, all of the above lose to tera ghost, with the exception of Copper and arguably Tauros-B, Arcanine, and Vroom. However, offensive Tauros-B dies after SR, while max hp dies after two rounds of SR. Likewise, Arcanine takes 71.3-84.1% from boosted Tera Blast and needs to be max atk Flare Blitz to OHKO in return. As for Haze Vroom, it is in an odd position, as it is 2hkod by Tera Blast, while Iron Head is a 2HKO and Gunk is a 3HKO. Nevertheless, it should be able to Haze after eating the first Tera Blast and then either attack or parting shot, assuming it has enough creep to outrun Frosmoth and Modest Toxtricity, which it certainly should. To make matters worse, the answers to tera ghost all lose to tera ground. Conversely, the only mons of the above which beat tera ground, Zong and Bliss, both lose to tera ghost. Consequently, there are no true Moth counters, perhaps with the exception of CM Bliss and tera fairy Copper, which makes it an utter pain to prep for and play around, despite a pre-tera Moth being mediocre at best.
+1 252 SpA Tera Ground Frosmoth Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Copperajah: 348-410 (77.6 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Copperajah Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ground Frosmoth: 244-288 (86.8 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
64+ Atk Tera Fairy Copperajah Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ground Frosmoth: 282-333 (100.3 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Tera Ground Frosmoth Ice Beam vs. 192 HP / 252 SpD Tera Fairy Copperajah: 213-252 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Tera Ground Frosmoth Tera Blast vs. 192 HP / 252 SpD Tera Fairy Copperajah: 190-225 (43.8 - 51.9%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tera Ghost Frosmoth Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Revavroom: 136-162 (37.3 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Tera Ghost Frosmoth Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Revavroom: 204-241 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Revavroom Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ghost Frosmoth: 151-178 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Tera Ghost Frosmoth Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tauros-Paldea-Blaze: 255-300 (87.6 - 103%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Tera Ghost Frosmoth Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tauros-Paldea-Blaze: 255-300 (72 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Tera Ghost Frosmoth Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 248-294 (73.3 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Bronzong Heavy Slam (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ghost Frosmoth: 148-175 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Tera Ghost Frosmoth Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Arcanine: 229-270 (71.3 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Tera Ghost Frosmoth Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arcanine: 229-270 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ghost Frosmoth: 262-309 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Naclstack Salt Cure vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Frosmoth: 172-208 (61.2 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Naclstack Salt Cure vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ghost Frosmoth: 43-52 (15.3 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Frosmoth Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Naclstack: 102-120 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 77.9% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Frosmoth Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Naclstack: 150-178 (46.4 - 55.1%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Frosmoth Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Naclstack: 91-108 (28.1 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Frosmoth Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Naclstack: 135-160 (41.7 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Frosmoth Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Naclstack: 180-213 (55.7 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But worst of them all, by far and away, is Hariyama. To begin with, Flame Orb Yama is a decent breaker, whereas Belly Drum Yama is at least a serviceable sweeper, in the sense that it gets several set up opportunities versus mons such as Rotom-H, Salazzle, Coalossal, Altaria, Cryogonal, Weavile, Cetitan, Palossand, etc. Rotom-H, Coal, and Alt have to fear Guts, hence they cannot wisp it, whereas Thick Fat lets it easily eat hits from all the fires and ice types. Nonetheless, without tera it would be more than manageable, as a Sableye could encore lock it into BP (assuming it BPs after clicking BD to avoid getting Encored into BD), while Flamigo, Hera, Sylveon, Florges, Medicham, Pom-Pom, Kilowattrel, Ditto, etc could all revenge it.
With tera, however, Yama turns into a demon. Defensively, tera lets it set up on mons such as Gardevoir, BB-locked Flamigo, Slowbro, Kilowattrel, Oricorio, Revavroom, Sylveon, Florges, Dragalge, Goodra, and Vroom, all of which it would normally struggle with. Haze Vroom is sometimes held to keep Yama in check, but unfortunately this is not the case. Of course, having Haze does help a bit, as you do basically waste the Sitrus Berry. However, Yama can simply click Drain as the Vroom goes for Haze, as it recovers just as much from Drain Punch as Vroom does with Iron Head. Then, after putting Vroom in range with Drain, it may simply BD again and pick off the weakened Vroom with a boosted BP.
Offensively, tera steel makes Yama far more difficult to revenge, as it gains stab on BP, which lets it nab several OHKOs which it otherwise would not, such as versus Flamigo, Heracross, Medicham, tera ground Sylveon, slightly weakened Sableye, and even Ditto. In fact, if you are using a frail and fast BD Yama, the Ditto can die as soon as it falls below 80, even if it clicks tera steel. Conversely, if you are using fat bd Yama, then Ditto still needs to be above 70 to beat Yama, whereas the ditto itself only does 40 with tera steel BP in return. And of course, if you do not have tera steel on your ditto, you just get OHKOd by BP.
Ditto calcs are difficult to do so here is how I did it: I made the calcs with Yama vs Yama but gave one Yama base 48 hp and 248 HP evs because this is what Ditto usually runs. I then made two different sets of calcs. One is with a speedy and thus frail version of BD Yama, whereas the other is with a slower and fatter version of BD Yama. Anyway here are the Yama vs Ditto calcs:
Fat tera steel Yama vs tera steel Ditto:
+6 240+ Atk Tera Steel Hariyama Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Tera Steel Hariyama: 172-203 (57.5 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
+6 240+ Atk Hariyama Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 227-268 (86.9 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+6 240+ Atk Tera Steel Hariyama Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 340-402 (130.2 - 154%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Kilowattrel Hurricane vs. 12 HP / 144 SpD Tera Steel Hariyama: 95-112 (21.9 - 25.9%) -- 4.8% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Kilowattrel Hurricane vs. 12 HP / 144 SpD Hariyama: 380-450 (87.9 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Kilowattrel Thunderbolt vs. 12 HP / 144 SpD Hariyama: 156-184 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 240+ Atk Hariyama Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kilowattrel: 381-448 (135.5 - 159.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 240+ Atk Tera Steel Hariyama Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kilowattrel: 203-239 (72.2 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Oricorio-Pom-Pom Hurricane vs. 12 HP / 144 SpD Hariyama: 362-428 (83.7 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Oricorio-Pom-Pom Hurricane vs. 12 HP / 144 SpD Tera Steel Hariyama: 90-107 (20.8 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Oricorio-Pom-Pom Revelation Dance vs. 12 HP / 144 SpD Tera Steel Hariyama: 150-177 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 240+ Atk Tera Steel Hariyama Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 337-397 (115.8 - 136.4%) 33.7 - 33.7% recovered)
252+ Atk Revavroom Gunk Shot vs. 12 HP / 112 Def Hariyama: 259-306 (59.9 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Revavroom Iron Head vs. 12 HP / 112 Def Hariyama: 174-205 (40.2 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Revavroom Gunk Shot vs. 12 HP / 112 Def Hariyama: 193-228 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Revavroom Iron Head vs. 12 HP / 112 Def Hariyama: 129-153 (29.8 - 35.4%) -- 19% chance to 3HK
0 Atk Revavroom Iron Head vs. 12 HP / 112 Def Tera Steel Hariyama: 64-76 (14.8 - 17.5%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Revavroom Iron Head vs. 12 HP / 112 Def Tera Steel Hariyama: 79-93 (18.2 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO
Where do we go from here? Do we need to do anything, and if so, what?
Thus far I have brought up a host of issues, but I have yet to bring up any solutions, let alone entertain the idea that perhaps the meta is perfectly fine as it is. Whether we ought to do something, and if so, what actions we should take, depends entirely on what we want the tier to be. My tiering philosophy is fairly simple: I want the meta to be fun and competitive. Most people would probably support this notion, so the real question which divides people is what it entails in practice.
In my opinion, a meta should ideally be conducive to the success of both risk-prone and risk-averse players, as well as offensive, defensive, creative, and standardized teams. The greater variety the better! An extremely standardized meta may be even more competitive, but it would not be fun. Metas which allow for a great amount of diversity, both in terms of playing style and building, generally tend to be the most fun. My issue with the current meta is that it is too skewed against defensive teams and risk-averse playing. I do not find it fun to build nor play in such a meta, and as such I believe that action is imperative.
However, other users are likely to disagree with me if they have a different idea of what “fun” and “competitive” entails. For example, some may think that metagames that are offensive in nature and favor higher risk taking are more fun to play. From such a perspective, it is not an issue at all if tera tends to skew the meta in favor of offensive teams at the expense of defensive teams. On the contrary, it would be positive! In that case, all my arguments fall apart. To such a user, the balance between fun and competitive may be completely fine. And I want to be clear that it is a perfectly reasonable position to hold. I just disagree with it.
Concluding thoughts: my proposed solution
While I acknowledge that some may disagree, I believe that the current situation is untenable. Consequently, I want to make some changes. One way of going about creating a healthier tier would be to remove unambiguously unhealthy elements such as Yama, Rotom-H, and Toxtricity. Heck, we could even ban arguably unhealthy elements such as Frosmoth (although the offensive counterplay is far better versus this mon than versus the others, as Cyan aptly pointed out), Oricorio (sorry I do not have the time to discuss this in-depth, but the gist of it is that it has different answers depending on which tera typing it is using), or Vroom. Removing these elements from the meta would likely ameliorate some of our issues. However, it would not solve the underlying issue, which is tera.
I believe that the better approach would be to get rid of tera. While some mons would still be problematic if tera was removed, namely Rotom-H and arguably Toxtricity and Rotom-Mow, other aspects that are either unambiguously or arguably unhealthy, such as Yama, Moth, Oricorio, Ape, Cetitan, or Vroom, would be more than manageable in a tier without tera. Thus, I would ideally want to ban Rotom-H, ban tera, and suspect test Rotom-Mow and Toxt. But if there is not sufficient support for a ban on tera, then I would favor the approach of banning Yama, Rotom-H, and Toxt, before potentially moving on to suspect testing edge cases such as Oricorio, Ape, Moth, Cetitan, and Vroom.
I'm going to bounce off eifo's point here, and argue something. How is suspecting tera rn different than our ban of light clay? Think about it for a second. We have as broken contention pokemon Hariyama, Frosmoth, Toxtricity, Rotom-Heat, Oricorio-Pom, and apparently Rotom-Mow i dont see it atall rn but alright.
Of these, only Rotom is really unchanged by Tera. Every single mon here, either entirely relies on tera for its viability, or is toxtricity where tera greatly improves it and may not be broken without Tera. To this i ask, how is this different from light clay breaking pokemon who are normally fine? In what world is it different? I think when we have 4-6+ pokemon who are stupid with tera, i'll include weavile w tera ground and car aswell, how do we justify banning them over tera? I just think this is the exact same case as BW drizzle in this case, where we are doing almost half a dozen bans just to keep a mechanic for identity reasons. "Tera isnt broken though" for what reason. We have tera breaking 4-6+ pokemon and creating unhealthy dynamics where defensive play is a comedy. How can anyone possibly call light clay broken for breaking multiple pokemon who arent usually broken otherwise, but spin it and say tera isnt an issue? It's nonsensical. Light clay warped the meta and make offensive teams way too good. Tera warps the whole game and changes how we play it for the worse (subjective but i dont think this is a hot take). We don't need OU's blessing for this. The responsible thing to do imo is QB Rotom-Heat, and suspect tera in rapid succession. This may be a bold claim, but i think banning any mon besides rotom-heat and not suspecting tera when we just banned light clay in a similar situation goes against tiering philosophy too.
I think we have more than enough to justify suspecting tera with our current position. If we don't, light clays ban shouldn't be valid either.
Regarding what eifo and LBN said about tera, I always felt like it needed to be discussed.
Tera just allows too many threats to be more broken/unhealthy than usual, most of the times with no counterplay to be found.
Do I enjoy tera? Somewhat. It definitely is an interesting gimmick but as I said “going down the tiers” (and with the lack of home mons) it’s troublesome. ex: how oricorios are getting banned in the lower two tiers simply because of how in conjuction w/tera, they become unhealthy to the meta.
I would definitely be in favor of a suspect if possible.
I think tera is the main issue with this tier, but more so contributes to a bigger issue.
Atm, SV RU would not be able to ban tera because it is a mechanic of the game, and only allowing some tiers to use an essential game mechanic defeats the tiering system. Even though tera is a problem, a ban seems extremely unrealistic. One question I had was, "What if a mechanic makes a lower tier unplayable but is fine in OU or Ubers?" Do the lower tiers just rot? This may seem unrealistic, but I think it is a fair question due as right now RU does not have good defensive counterplay compared to OU.
Team building is incredibly linear. This is partly due to tera as it narrows the amount of good defensive options in the tier and limits defensive cores. With such a narrow list of defensive options the metagame will and has adapted to take advantage of them. I think the best example is rotom-heat as it takes advantage of the passivity of blissey while also being able to threaten grounds that try to take a volt. Another aspect that makes RU very limited in the builder is the lack of role compression in the tier. There is nothing like a steelix that can serve as a steel-type and a ground type, there is nothing like crobat that offered defog and speed control, there are no water-types that can serve as ground types except whiscash which is only ok. There are only really 2 good defoggers, and there are only 2 good rapid spinners. This makes the tier already feel linear, couple this with tera and it becomes impossible to cover basic team necessities and offensive tera pokemon.
I feel the only way this is to be solved is get rid of some offensive, and quite clearly broken pokemon. I think Hariyama, Toxtricity, and Rotom-Heat should be banned immediately. I have no clue as to how these 3 aren't already banned as on the ladder, they have proven themselves to be absurd. Following those bans, pokemon such as oricorio, Flamigo, kilowattrel, and salazzle should be looked into. The hope is that banning these pokemon will free up the teambuilder and allow for more core diversity, as well as just get rid of pokemon that are restricting themselves and clearly too much.
I disagree with the posts above regarding tera. I don't think tera is a problem at all for RU. Does tera change the way the game is played? Most definitely. Does tera make certain pokemon (borderline) broken? Yes. However, that does not mean it is problematic for the tier. Tera itself is a powerful, but delicate mechanic that requires long term game planning and manouvering. This makes using your tera on the right moment a very important skill. This skill differentiates bad, mediocre and good players. Some of the replays above illustrate this very well, where the tera was misused, resulting in an easy win for the opponent. This still makes for a competitive and skillful game though. Hence I dont see any issues with tera.
If certain mons are deemed too broken or overcentralizing because of tera we should just ban those mons.
Since the thread has started talking about tera, I feel obligated to give my opinion on it.
I firmly believe that tera should not be banned at this point. I believe that while there are some pokemon that are pushed over the line by tera, that number is being greatly exaggerated by some in this thread and that that isn't a good reason to ban the mechanic as a whole.
RE: certain people saying that because there are multiple banworthy pokemon that use tera well, therefore tera is a banworthy mechanic: I feel like this is just a bad argument. Go look through any banlist for past formats and you will probably find multiple pokemon that were put there because of choice band or specs, and when they were banned they were quickly replaced by other pokemon that still used those items to similar success. Does that mean that those items are banworthy?
RE: the light clay comparison: When discussing the light clay ban, my opinion on the matter was that banning light clay was a move with no negative consequences since it targeted a specific unhealthy playstyle with high precision. HO wasn't killed as a concept, it was just made easier to deal with and therefore less centralizing. I believe that even with Hariyamaa and Oricorio; two pokemon which are very good at abusing tera, in the tier, it is still a positive force on the game. Tera is a skillful mechanic that is not uncompetitive, it creates many unique lines of play on both offense and defense that allow for smart players to gain a burst of momentum that can turn a losing position into an advantageous one and creates a lot of potential in the teambuilder. When Tera is being used on a wallbreaker or wall to gain an advantage and either force progress or stabilize, it is a positive on the game that rewards knowing what threats can break you in the team builder and analyzing the costs and benefits for teraing your Slowbro or Tauros. There are also plenty of ways to punish a suboptimal use of tera through prediction and reaction, and good use of wallbreakers in the early game can force an early tera from the opponent. The only time that tera is problematic is when combined with setup moves, specifically the ones that were already bullshit like quiver dance, shell smash or belly drum. I believe that with these problematic pokemon like Hariyama and Oricorio, the heavy lifting is being done by those bullshit moves and all tera is doing is making the already limited counterplay uncertain.
Finally, I want to talk about the process and metagame aspects of a tera ban. I believe it is far too early to decide on the final fate of tera at this point, seeing how we are still effectively in beta and have home +2 DLCs until the meta reaches its final form. I don't think that banning tera now and maybe re-suspecting it in the future would give it a fair shot, I think that inertia and petty politics would even stop that from being considered when the time actually comes. Additionally, I believe that before a full ban is considered, tera preview should at the very least be experimented with. Even The Pokemon Company seems to realize that open tera types smooths out all the frustrating aspects of tera.
Hlelo, RU Council held a vote this weekend on Hariyama, Flamigo, Rotom-Heat and Toxtricity. Additionally, ishtar and Lunala joined us both on Rotating Council. As per the new voting guidelines, 8/11 were required for a ban. Here are the results:
*(eifo did not vote on Flamigo, though the outcome would be the same)
As a result of this round. Hariyama with 9 ban votes out of 11 has been banned from SV RU! Tagging Kris and Marty to implement on ladder, thank you. Toxtricity and Rotom-Heat with 6/11 and Flamigo with 1/10 all stay in the tier for now.
A potential suspect test soon is certainly in the cards, especially with how close those results were for Toxtricity and Rotom-Heat. If you have an opinion on those or anything else, now is the time to post those here!
Started writing this right as the RESULTS CAME IN, since I thought itd be insightful to give my take on votes: I won’t explain my vote for Yama since I believe that that’s been explained well enough overall:
Toxtricity is an incredibly versatile and threatening breaker in RU. It seems redundant to refer to how its ability to break through would be counters such as Steels and Grounds makes it incredibly hard to deal with unless youre running Blissey, so Id prefer referring to sneaky's and cyan's post about it if youre tryna learn why this mon is so oppressive. For me, the main thing is just having to deal with the guessing game of, not only its sets, but when it teras, and when its simply gonna pivot out. The mon has the tools to do whatever it wants at almost any given moment. About to be revenged by Garde? Tera Normal and kill it. Need to get rid of the ground? Same thing. Dealing with Blissey? Volt. The mon is an infinite guessing game where your outs against it often force a sac or a trade, or simply allowing yourself to stay on the backfoot after it pivots out. I think people often underestimate how easily this mon comes in or its defensive attributes, able to switch in once on Pokemon such as Scarf Flamigo, Kilowattrel and predicts F-Sight Slowbro without considering more passive Pokemon such as other bulky waters, Altaria and even Klefki and defensive Reva which normally youd consider a defensive check but whose options against it rely on T-Wave after Tera Normal, Bulldoze which is purely used for Toxt and is uncommon, or Parting Shot. Now gl dealing w the other Special Attacker in the back now that your Steel is weakened, or your physical breaker that loves having Mudsdale chipped excessively by Boomburst. Or maybe you simply predicted Specs on a team and now youre about to get swept by Shift Gear.
The interesting thing about both Hariyama and Toxtricity is that you can sorta feel safe against them from a building perspective: just load up a Ground, a bulky Steel or whatever, and your team probably wont automatically lose to it, but its ability to flip the script on you makes it uncompetitive to me, mostly when I feel like predicting its set isn’t the easiest thing ever: Scarf is wildly underrated, Shift Gear is underused and Specs is Specs. Its not hard to hide one or the other in a speedy tier like this with a lot of offensive breakers that might opt for other sets such as Flamigo, Rotom, Tauros, Garde (all perfect users of Scarf or other Choiced items).
Rotom-Heat is another big point of contention within the community right now. I did not feel comfortable voting ban atm but understand the sentiment of how it enables broken breakers as well as being an incredibly potent one in itself. The ideal situation for me was to have both Yama and Toxt banned and then proceed with the idea of proposing a suspect test for Rotom-Heat depending on how this current meta developed without the former two, but that seems to be out of the equation for now at least. I do think this mon needs to be looked at closely and its impact in conjunction with other problematic breakers should not be underestimated and needs to be considered moving forward, even if the threat itself does not seem to result as immediately broken as to what it enables. Think about how your builds are being enabled by it, the amount of work it puts on its own isn’t simply evident in its damage, but how it affects your planning. Is it warping? Is it allowing for more bullshit to come up? These are the questions that need to be answered. Considering the 6/8 votes I also think a suspect test would be appreciated in the near future but since I voted dnb rn that wouldn’t be my preferred outcome as of now, I just wouldn’t be ANGERY about it. Hope this was good enough for now Togkey ;-;
Finally, just wanted to point to Franklin's post regarding Tera since I agree with his arguments. I believe LT playoffs will continue showing the value of Tera as a skillful tool and that we should continue looking at mons individually. Initially wanted to make this section of the post a lot bigger, but I kept regurgitating points, so yea, thanks a fucking lot Franklin for being so concise and articulate, a trait most of us clearly don’t have! (: Woof night! (Also s/o sneaky who posted right before about the subject!)
TLDR: Suspect Toxt (and Rotom-H), keep tera FREED. And ty council for having me! n_n
Team building is incredibly linear. This is partly due to tera as it narrows the amount of good defensive options in the tier and limits defensive cores.
this is so insanely wrong lmao. SS was such a boring, MU fishy gen because the lack of options for threats was far outweighted by the number of threats. With Tera a Pokemon can serve multiple roles in one slot, which eases teambuilding tremendously. At a moment's notice, a Palossand can become a Water resist, and a Revavroom a Ground immune, this makes poor MU's infinitely more playable as there's an entire new layer of gameplay available to the players. Obviously offensive Pokemon get better with Tera, but so do defensive Pokemon, and people calling for Tera Bans really seem to forget that both sides of the field are able to Terastallize. We see so often, even at the highest level of play, that the player who Tera's second often wins. This shows how valuable of a resource Tera is but it also shows that no, you cannot just Tera your setup sweeper and auto win, because your opponent can also Tera to beat it if need be. Tera creates infinitely more options for teambuilding and removing it would be a HUGE mistake both for tier enjoyability and activity without providing any kind of consistency.
because when there are countless threats with none of them standing out as overtly better than any other in general terms you cannot justify banning any one of them. Also if "just ban those threats." is the methodology you want to go with, there's no reason to not just ban the best Tera abusers and keep the mechanic for the countless Pokemon that benefit from it without being broken
there may not have been one that was overtly better but if the metagame was so bad then either you should have focused on the ones that were slightly better than the rest, to fix the meta. but you didn't, so i can only assume the metagame either wasn't that bad, or you guys are just bad at your jobs? that doesn't seem right.
also, "just ban the threats" is an argument against specifically "we should keep tera because it keeps stuff in check." which is a weird broken checks broken argument.
there may not have been one that was overtly better but if the metagame was so bad then either you should have focused on the ones that were slightly better than the rest
also, "just ban the threats" is an argument against specifically "we should keep tera because it keeps stuff in check." which is a weird broken checks broken argument.
broken checks broken is not inherently bad and many Pokemon are just unbeatable with Tera, even against opposing Tera, those are the ones that should be banned obviously. I don't think its too absurd to say that broken Pokemon should be banned but clearly it is
So, my opinion on these changes: Although these new threats arrive from the UU scene, there are not enough rain setters in RU that can be actually make Barraskewda and Floatzels' swift swim usable. Barraskewda still marks itself as a threat, as last generation it made a name for itself as a life orb/choice band glass cannon in the OU teir. After playing quite a few matches with these new moms in the mix, I can firmly say that Floatzel isn't as strong or as popular as first stipulation. I believe that Tauros Aqua is an amazing Intimidate user and Killawatrel makes a good defoger.
the only great defensive ground rn is palossand, and every other ground type either:
A: has no 50% recovery
B: doesn't resist normal OR fire
C: is literally in LC
or any combination of the above
The point is there isn't good enough ground types which make it hard to switch into volt switch without getting smacked with overheat/boomburst, the same issues sorta apply to other electrics but less extreme
also the new drops aren't really threatening except kilowattrel, as the tier currently has good water resists like altaria/slowbro
and 
with Damp Rock. As far as answers goes, Slowbro and Alomomola would be sound defensive answer to the swift swimmers until you realize Kilowattrel just kinda farms it not to mention it gets weather ball so ground types are a fake answer. 
can be a decent answer to rain abusers although you can easily have it on your own manual rain team to ensure you stay ahead in the mirror match.
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