Headlines Russia invades Ukraine

[Always!]

LOLing at the great mask slips by western media on why Ukrainian refugees are A-OK! to be let in and why THIS war is truly unthinkable. Some choice quotes from mainstream news outlets:

WTF LMAO

CBS correspondent Charlie D'Agata: "this isn't a place, with all due respect, like Iraq or Afghanistan that has seen conflict raging for decades [...] this is a relatively civilized, relatively European [...] city where you wouldn't expect that or hope that (war) to happen”.

Telegraph writer Daniel Hannan: "[...] they seem so like us. That is what makes it so shocking. Ukraine is a European country."

BBC's David Sakvarelidze: "It's very emotional for me because I see European people with blue eyes and blonde hair being killed — children being killed[...]" (bruh)

NBC's Hallie Cobiella: "to put it bluntly, these are not refugees from Syria, these are refugees from Ukraine [...] they’re Christians, they’re white. They’re very similar [to us].”

(N.B., Cobiella's case may have been referring to why the Polish government has taken a very different immigration stance regarding Ukraine vs other countries; in charity I wish to imagine this as an explanation and not indicative of the reporter's personal opinions, if this is indeed the context. The sentiment is sufficiently clear, however.)

I could give more examples but these are sufficiently ludicrous. Not to mention the insanity of things like the British media glorifying bomb-making by Ukrainians, whereas the same thing would never be promoted if the Palestinians were doing it. Or UK government official Liz Truss supporting people traveling to fight in Ukraine, even though you'd get arrested for the same thing if you decided to do that in the Middle East.

I cannot partake in the same shows of solidarity that so many are doing now; that would just be insulting all those uncivilized and unenlightened non-Europeans, who didn't have the privilege of worldwide marches and Twitter hashtags broadcasted for their plight.

 

[boo836]

Shooting down planes doesn't cause hot war. Russia already established that norm 6-8 years ago, in shootdowns of civilian airliner MH17, and the Turkish shootdown of an SU24, and most recently a Russian-involved threat on European aircraft carrying a Belarusian journalist. Pro-engagement positioning is going to be a whole lot more common on the left compared to other conflicts because of Russian involvement in promoting RWE terrorist organisations and their long record of war crimes under Putin. And I don't just mean in the US.

and no, I'm not going to listen to Cenk Uygur's failson nephew whose job is to play video games online and neither should anyone else. Saying Krystal Ball is sympathetic to Russia is understating it, she was dependent on her boss' Russian organised crime contacts for material lol. Her, Sara Carter, and anyone else attached to Solomon or the Rising program just shouldn't have careers.

 

[Chou Toshio]

LOLing at the great mask slips by western media on why Ukrainian refugees are A-OK! to be let in and why THIS war is truly unthinkable. Some choice quotes from mainstream news outlets:

WTF LMAO

CBS correspondent Charlie D'Agata: "this isn't a place, with all due respect, like Iraq or Afghanistan that has seen conflict raging for decades [...] this is a relatively civilized, relatively European [...] city where you wouldn't expect that or hope that (war) to happen”.

Telegraph writer Daniel Hannan: "[...] they seem so like us. That is what makes it so shocking. Ukraine is a European country."

BBC's David Sakvarelidze: "It's very emotional for me because I see European people with blue eyes and blonde hair being killed — children being killed[...]" (bruh)

NBC's Hallie Cobiella: "to put it bluntly, these are not refugees from Syria, these are refugees from Ukraine [...] they’re Christians, they’re white. They’re very similar [to us].”

(N.B., Cobiella's case may have been referring to why the Polish government has taken a very different immigration stance regarding Ukraine vs other countries; in charity I wish to imagine this as an explanation and not indicative of the reporter's personal opinions, if this is indeed the context. The sentiment is sufficiently clear, however.)

I could give more examples but these are sufficiently ludicrous. Not to mention the insanity of things like the British media glorifying bomb-making by Ukrainians, whereas the same thing would never be promoted if the Palestinians were doing it. Or UK government official Liz Truss supporting people traveling to fight in Ukraine, even though you'd get arrested for the same thing if you decided to do that in the Middle East.

I cannot partake in the same shows of solidarity that so many are doing now; that would just be insulting all those uncivilized and unenlightened non-Europeans, who didn't have the privilege of worldwide marches and Twitter hashtags broadcasted for their plight.

Yeah, I was reading those too. So so so cringe... and racist...

...can't say I'm surprised unfortunately.

Shooting down planes doesn't cause hot war. Russia already established that norm 6-8 years ago, in shootdowns of civilian airliner MH17, and the Turkish shootdown of an SU24, and most recently a Russian-involved threat on European aircraft carrying a Belarusian journalist. Pro-engagement positioning is going to be a whole lot more common on the left compared to other conflicts because of Russian involvement in promoting RWE terrorist organisations and their long record of war crimes under Putin. And I don't just mean in the US.

and no, I'm not going to listen to Cenk Uygur's failson nephew whose job is to play video games online and neither should anyone else. Saying Krystal Ball is sympathetic to Russia is understating it, she was dependent on her boss' Russian organised crime contacts for material lol. Her, Sara Carter, and anyone else attached to Solomon or the Rising program just shouldn't have careers.

Hate on her all you like. I do if I ever watch a vid of theirs' that's terrible-- but then go on to feel embarrassed that they are much much more closer to your position on this issue (as am I...) and much much more informed about this issue than the majority of big lefty commentators or big swaths of the Online Left. If you despise that, either start your own leftie channel (that's in favor of hot war with Russia? That would certainly be new on Breadtube) or donate to people you genuinely like. I'm going to guess odds are that they are smaller than Breaking Points or Hassan or TYT.

You got a lot of Lefties watching RT and being stans for actual Russian State commentators.

As Vaush (who hates Saagar and Krystal) finds himself finding them reasonable on Ukraine, falls into a depression spiral about the state of the left and its inability to recognize Russia as Imperialist/Fasc.

 

[Chloe]

this world is going insane

Russian & Belarusian Athletes Banned from Competing in 2022 Winter Paralympics

why are they banning russian and belarusian paralympians?? imagine being born disabled and training your whole life to be the best athlete in your field only to be banned from the event you've been waiting a long long time for. they initially allowed them to participate as neutral athletes with no country affiliation but then backflipped on that even. what did they do to deserve this? and this all while athletes from israel, saudi arabia and the united states are still allowed under their own countries' banners! it's a sick twisted joke really. there's absolutely no irony here and this is totally fair!

i mean i shouldn't be surprised after all the other forms of western hysteria i've heard over the last week but yikes man this struck a nerve. kind of an extreme example compared to all the absurd borderline trivial bullshit (1, 2, 3) that's been occurring lately, all while actual russian people are suffering at the hands of a devastated economy, and enduring a massive rise in russophobic attacks and sentiment worldwide. it's incredibly sick to watch people unable to separate what they believe to be a tyrannical leader and the innocent civilians who just want to live their lives.

my apologies for somewhat diverting the topic at hand but the way the russian people have been treated throughout this whole ordeal upsets me so much. you're allowed to be angry at what's happening, just don't take it out on the people who have no say in it.

 

[willdbeast]

I could give more examples but these are sufficiently ludicrous. Not to mention the insanity of things like the British media glorifying bomb-making by Ukrainians, whereas the same thing would never be promoted if the Palestinians were doing it. Or UK government official Liz Truss supporting people traveling to fight in Ukraine, even though you'd get arrested for the same thing if you decided to do that in the Middle East.

Just Re. British media, I feel like it's worth pointing out there have been plenty of articles etc similarly celebrating people going to fight in Syria (against ISIS, especially one notable ex-soldier who went to fight with the Kurds) especially in the "trashier" newspapers, for want of a better word.
But the change in the "official" stance is definitely notable like you say (the aforementioned guy who went to Syria wasn't arrested but faced terror charges which were later dropped).

 

[RaikouLover]

this world is going insane

Russian & Belarusian Athletes Banned from Competing in 2022 Winter Paralympics

why are they banning russian and belarusian paralympians?? imagine being born disabled and training your whole life to be the best athlete in your field only to be banned from the event you've been waiting a long long time for. they initially allowed them to participate as neutral athletes with no country affiliation but then backflipped on that even. what did they do to deserve this? and this all while athletes from israel, saudi arabia and the united states are still allowed under their own countries' banners! it's a sick twisted joke really. there's absolutely no irony here and this is totally fair!

i mean i shouldn't be surprised after all the other forms of western hysteria i've heard over the last week but yikes man this struck a nerve. kind of an extreme example compared to all the absurd borderline trivial bullshit (1, 2, 3) that's been occurring lately, all while actual russian people are suffering at the hands of a devastated economy, and enduring a massive rise in russophobic attacks and sentiment worldwide. it's incredibly sick to watch people unable to separate what they believe to be a tyrannical leader and the innocent civilians who just want to live their lives.

my apologies for somewhat diverting the topic at hand but the way the russian people have been treated throughout this whole ordeal upsets me so much. you're allowed to be angry at what's happening, just don't take it out on the people who have no say in it.

Russian and Belarusian athletes should be banned. It is a fair decision and it is fair to hold the Russian people to the standard of their President. Image matters and the President is a reflection of the people. It is not the rest of the world’s responsibility to remove Putin from power.

It is offensive to say Russian civilians are innocent because they just want to live their lives while their military goes out and commits atrocities.

 

[JALMONT]

Well they should have been banned for their state sponsored doping program a while ago anyways…

 

[RaikouLover]

This rhetoric is disgusting. Have you seen ALL the fucking protesting going on in Russia over what Putin is doing and other Russian reactions over other platforms despite their President being a "reflection" of the people (which, by that logic, no American wants Nazification to be outlawed since the American government voted against it)? You're blaming an ENTIRE populace of people who had nothing to do with and actively dislike what their tyrannical leader decided to do for him forcing their military to commit atrocities. I'll put the shoe on the other foot for you since you're JUST as guilty of this kind of shit as an American by this logic. "It is offensive to say Americans civilians are innocent because they just want to live their lives while their military goes out and commits atrocities." But you don't see Americans getting blockaded from the Olympics or having all their technology and entertainment cut off for what their terrible government does. The Russians don't want this happening to their military and families but it's happening anyway and they don't have control (despite you implying they should just up and decide to topple him, which, good luck with that). I'm sure there are some regular civilians who support this but don't clump them in with the people who just want peace and to not be punished and crushed by sanctions and other world reactions.

Yes, I have seen the protesting. It does not change the fact that a country’s populace is rightfully judged by what their leaders do on the world stage. I did not day “all Russians are bad people” and that is not the intent behind the post. No one thinks removing crackpot dictator Putin from power is some walk in the park however the onus is on the people of Russia to do so.

As an American, I do not shy away from criticism levied at Americans. We were most recently responsible for Donald Trump, and have over two centuries of atrocities to atone for. Bottom line is civilians in any global power do have a obligation to stop unjust wars. Neutrality is unacceptable. Sorry that it offends but people outside of Russia have a right to take issue with saying the Russian people are innocent in all of this.

 

[antemortem]

Yes, I have seen the protesting. It does not change the fact that a country’s populace is rightfully judged by what their leaders do on the world stage. I did not day “all Russians are bad people” and that is not the intent behind the post. No one thinks removing crackpot dictator Putin from power is some walk in the park but the onus is on the people of Russia to do so.

As an American, I do not shy away from criticism levied at Americans. We were most recently responsible for Donald Trump, and have over two centuries of atrocities to atone for. Bottom line is civilians in any global power do have a obligation to stop unjust wars. Neutrality is unacceptable. Sorry that it offends but people outside of Russia have a right to take issue with saying the Russian people are innocent in all of this.

This approach to the politic is broadly generalizing, though, when we’re dealing with a situation involving civilians in crisis. You use the US and Trump as your reference point, but it’s very difficult to compare a despotic regime of almost 20 years to someone we voted out in 4. The conversation is nuanced and I feel your argument is not, which comes across as provocative for the sake of being inflammatory. You aren’t going to convince people in this thread that we should hold the citizens of Russia any more accountable than anyone already is just by agreeing these athletes (and other applicable parties) should be excluded with a broad, weaponized statement.

If you know you’re being offensive, consider reposturing your argument or not posting at all.

 

[talah]

Yes, I have seen the protesting. It does not change the fact that a country’s populace is rightfully judged by what their leaders do on the world stage. I did not day “all Russians are bad people” and that is not the intent behind the post. No one thinks removing crackpot dictator Putin from power is some walk in the park however the onus is on the people of Russia to do so.

As an American, I do not shy away from criticism levied at Americans. We were most recently responsible for Donald Trump, and have over two centuries of atrocities to atone for. Bottom line is civilians in any global power do have a obligation to stop unjust wars. Neutrality is unacceptable. Sorry that it offends but people outside of Russia have a right to take issue with saying the Russian people are innocent in all of this.

so to be clear, do you agree that if we were to abide by your logic that the people should be held accountable for the actions of the state it follows that US athletes, media, etc, should also be banned from events in the rest of the world due to their current active involvement in Yemen, Syria, and Somalia? or do those countries and wars just not count?

 

[RaikouLover]

Ok, I will now judge every single American for Iraq and voting for no Denazification despite many of them being against it and not having a say in it (no, fucking needing to topple the government isn't a valid response, especially in a dictatorship) and I will also judge every single North Korean for Kim Jong-un holding back food for the general populace and cutting them out of the outside world. You can see why this rhetoric is problematic now? Now, if there was footage of a ton of Russians cheering the Ukraine situation on circulating all the time, it'd be a different story. But that's not the case (if anything, more neoliberals are posting that kinda shit than the Russians themselves).

Saying "the Russian people" encompasses all normal Russian civilians just by writing. Just as saying "the American people" without any added context or wording encompasses all normal American civilians into one big bubble. Maybe you didn't mean it this way, but that's how it reads when writing without any extra context. To be honest, I also hold this belief for Trump with Americans as well, not all of them are at fault for his presidency.

Generalizations are an unfortunate part of the human condition. I agree that it is not a good thing and problematic. However, it is a real thing and it can be a catalyst for change. I did not support Donald Trump at all but still think it is fair to judge Americans by his tenure and it is fair to judge Americans by our imperialism. I thought by including representation and image in my original comment that it would be assumed that “Russian people” and “American people” does not encompass all individual people. We do have a responsibility to protect that image even in the most extreme of circumstances.

so to be clear, do you agree that if we were to abide by your logic that the people should be held accountable for the actions of the state it follows that US athletes, media, etc, should also be banned from events in the rest of the world due to their current active involvement in Yemen, Syria, and Somalia? or do those countries and wars just not count?

Yes. If the major powers of world sanctioned the US for its involvement in those counties it would not only shed light on those situations amongst everyday Americans it would also be a motivator for us to demand change in policy.

 

[talah]

Yes. If the major powers of world sanctioned the US for its involvement in those counties it would not only shed light on those situations amongst everyday Americans it would also be a motivator for us to demand change in policy.

are you saying you support sanctioning in not only these but also assumedly other forms, with the logic of it being 'a motivator'?

 

[Divine Retribution]

It seems to me like there's a lot of people here looking for a double standard in RaikouLover 's posts that doesn't seem to actually exist. Never did they say that Americans should be held to a different standard (quite the opposite actually). Let me ask you this; how do you think systematic change has any hope of happening if everyday citizens are not affected in some way? What else is going to drive it? Beyond twitter hashtags and bumper stickers, most people frankly do not give that much of a shit about anything until they're forced to.

I don't think the purpose is to say that all Russian citizens are directly culpable in Russia's war crimes, but rather to bring attention to it in a way that inconveniences the average Russian citizen but doesn't harm them. Think of it as the world stage equivalent of BLM shutting down roads.

 

[LBDC]

this world is going insane

Russian & Belarusian Athletes Banned from Competing in 2022 Winter Paralympics

why are they banning russian and belarusian paralympians?? imagine being born disabled and training your whole life to be the best athlete in your field only to be banned from the event you've been waiting a long long time for. they initially allowed them to participate as neutral athletes with no country affiliation but then backflipped on that even. what did they do to deserve this? and this all while athletes from israel, saudi arabia and the united states are still allowed under their own countries' banners! it's a sick twisted joke really. there's absolutely no irony here and this is totally fair!

i mean i shouldn't be surprised after all the other forms of western hysteria i've heard over the last week but yikes man this struck a nerve. kind of an extreme example compared to all the absurd borderline trivial bullshit (1, 2, 3) that's been occurring lately, all while actual russian people are suffering at the hands of a devastated economy, and enduring a massive rise in russophobic attacks and sentiment worldwide. it's incredibly sick to watch people unable to separate what they believe to be a tyrannical leader and the innocent civilians who just want to live their lives.

my apologies for somewhat diverting the topic at hand but the way the russian people have been treated throughout this whole ordeal upsets me so much. you're allowed to be angry at what's happening, just don't take it out on the people who have no say in it.

I want to mention that this, in sport at least, isn't without some precedent. After the two World Wars and according to Wikipedia, Germany wasn't invited by the IOC in 1920 Games and 1948 Games (that were respectively hold in Antwerp and London cities). Japon wasn't invited to 1948 Games, too. AFAIK, this is because starting a full-scale war between two country = persona non grata in sport.

(Also, I heard that other athletes were unhappy with the original decision, and threatened to boycott games if Russian and belarusian athletes weren't banned. However, I don't have a English source right now for this.)

 

[DragonDance]

Ok, I as a non-black person can have a right to take issue with saying the Black populace is innocent in all of what's happening in the US because some BLM protesters looted and burned buildings in cities. Don't pull the fucking race card btw if you respond to this.

This is a really incredible whataboutism if I've ever seen one.

(Also, I heard that other athletes were unhappy with the original decision, and threatened to boycott games if Russian and belarusian athletes weren't banned. However, I don't have a English source right now for this.)

Yes, same with the World Cup qualifiers. Anyone who had any chance of playing Russia said they would refuse.

 

[RaikouLover]

are you saying you support sanctioning in not only these but also assumedly other forms, with the logic of it being 'a motivator'?

Yes. The intent isn’t directly to “motivate” but to apply real-world consequences. Nothing gets civilian attention faster than hits to their pocketbook and way of life. History has shown us that bad actors in government not only know this but prepare for it.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

I cannot partake in the same shows of solidarity that so many are doing now; that would just be insulting all those uncivilized and unenlightened non-Europeans, who didn't have the privilege of worldwide marches and Twitter hashtags broadcasted for their plight.

Do you really think so?

 

[Zerses]

I must admit on a personal level I have zero empathy or sympathy for Russia. I can understand feeling “threatened” if Mexico and Canada joined an adversarial alliance. However, there is still no justification to annex / invade Canadian province Ontario just because Southern Ontario has some geographical and cultural similarities to the United States. Russia’s position in the world is their own doing and the onus is on them to facilitate healthier diplomatic relations with their neighbors. I think people trying to empathize with megalomaniacal despot Putin’s way of thinking is beyond troubling.

The Western view on annexation is kind of odd, on one hand it's bad, while on the other hand it's good, as seen in the annexation / invasion of pretty much most of the Palestinian territory by Israel, despite multiple human rights violations against innocent civilians, especially children, depriving them of their basic rights. Next they do is cry over Russia's annexation of Crimea as if they had enough right to have a say in the matter, quite understandable.

No, the Euromaidan was not led by Nazis. The idea that Nazis have any sort of real political influence is a narrative common to pro-Russian propaganda. Meanwhile Putin sends actual neo-Nazi mercenaries from Wagner Group to fight in Ukraine. If Ukraine was secretly run by Nazis, why is the President the grandson of a Holocaust survivor?

I'm surprised you didn't say anything on Stepan Bandera's national day, so glorifying a figure who was involved with Nazism, and who led an organization widely attributed with the massacre of jews, is a completely normal thing that can go unnoticed without any problem. This was done through the Ukrainian Parliament, and yet you say they have no involvement with Nazism. You might want to look up those photos showing multiple far-right organizations carrying Nazi symbols on flags in the Ukrainian Parliament when Euromaidan.

Also, I'd die to ask such an honest, trustworthy, good, and genuine person that Zelensky is, why was Arsen Avakov under his government as Interior Minister until 2021 (the longest-serving minister, being first appointed by Poroshenko in 2014), someone whose connections with Ukrainian fascism are not only known throughout the country, but who is also behind the Azov regiment. Such regiment continues to operate with impunity under Zelensky's government, so much that even after being labeled as a neo-Nazi terrorist organization (in the US and many other EU countries), it continues to operate under the direction of the Ukrainian Interior Ministry as part of the Ukrainian National Guard.

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/the-azov-regiment-has-not-depoliticized/

Although I had to expect the pro-Russian propaganda argument instead of a proper answer to such an important and relevant topic to the thread itself, you did not even bother to simply deny that Ukrainian Nazi-fascism exists, not even laughable but disgusting, if you ask me.

Yes, I have seen the protesting. It does not change the fact that a country’s populace is rightfully judged by what their leaders do on the world stage.

According to such logic, the US would have already isolated itself from the rest of the world.

Russian and Belarusian athletes should be banned. It is a fair decision and it is fair to hold the Russian people to the standard of their President. Image matters and the President is a reflection of the people. It is not the rest of the world’s responsibility to remove Putin from power.

It is offensive to say Russian civilians are innocent because they just want to live their lives while their military goes out and commits atrocities.

Yes, let's put everyone in the same boat, not only politicians, who are responsible for making the country's decisions, but also innocent civilians whose actions have had absolutely nothing to do with the current situation, couldn't be more logic. You just commented on racism in one of your previous posts, and now you think this is totally fine, that is straight up hypocrisy.

 

[mym217866]

a biological disposition to fascism? based on what? your amateur views on "human nature" and "the authoritarian?" this thread has seriously taken a turn for the worst. a biological disposition to fascism. biological. think about what you just said and its implications. you know, most of the people in this thread are confused liberals but you take it to another level. the dehumanization of the russian people and your antagonistic relationship to any real knowledge or interpretation as an american of all things is a far greater 'disposition to fascism' than you could ever project onto those in eastern europe. the truth of the matter behind your ridiculous views is that you, along with many others, are the true fascists. at least people like chou argue in good faith.

everybody else in the thread who are americans should be thinking about how exactly, as americans, they can stop the war in russia/ukraine through de-escalation. if you dislike conflict as much as you claim then you should stop cosplaying as war generals and instead realize your position.

I don't think I can do anything to de-escalate a war.

edit: Or escalate one for that matter, no?
And biological dispositions seems somewhat race-realist to me no offense RaikouLover. Or pseudoscience rather is a better term.

 

[RaikouLover]

US Republican Senator Lindsey Graham has insinuated on Twitter that someone in Russia should assassinate Putin. The condemnation was swift from both parties, the White House, and Fox News.

It really doesn’t help when dumbass politicians try the macho talk for what they think will be political gain. Thank goodness Biden isn’t a hot head. This is not a time for escalation.

Speaking of Biden, his approval rating seems to have gotten an immediate bump after SOTU address, with a significant cause being his handling of the Russia-Ukraine crisis.

 

[DragonDance]

Now, it's been said that this is all due to Russia's imperialism, but it turns out that the US is the least qualified to call out any other country on this considering what has been done in terms of supposedly ensuring American interests and security thousands of kilometers away from its national territory, apparently people and reporters in the West seem to forget how the Middle East was completely turned into a hotbed for international terrorism. NATO hasn't done any better than the US or Russia either, so it is impossible to understand its rhetoric of war at this point. If you are going to point guns at some country, you would at least expect for said country to answer back, wouldn't you? I wonder what would happen if it were the other way around and Russia placed its missiles on the US border between Canada and Mexico, because it would certainly be even worse than what is happening right now, so not sure what's about all this "we aim for freedom" and "we want no war" that those who now back up Ukraine rely on in the West. A situation so complex as to look for someone to blame on rather than take responsibility for your own actions, it seems.

So.... you're not at all denying that Russian imperialism is the main cause for this war, so this entire "whatabout 'Murica" rant is unfounded. Do you not think that Ukraine should be allowed to choose its own future? As per Putin's own words, he doesn't believe that the Ukrainian state has any bearing to found itself on.

I'm surprised you didn't say anything on Stepan Bandera's national day, so glorifying a figure who was involved with Nazism, and who led an organization widely attributed with the massacre of jews, is a completely normal thing that can go unnoticed without any problem. This was done through the Ukrainian Parliament, and yet you say they have no involvement with Nazism. You might want to look up those photos showing multiple far-right organizations carrying Nazi symbols on flags in the Ukrainian Parliament when Euromaidan.

Also, I'd die to ask such an honest, trustworthy, good, and genuine person that Zelensky is, why was Arsen Avakov under his government as Interior Minister until 2021 (the longest-serving minister, being first appointed by Poroshenko in 2014), someone whose connections with Ukrainian fascism are not only known throughout the country, but who is also behind the Azov regiment. Such regiment continues to operate with impunity under Zelensky's government, so much that even after being labeled as a neo-Nazi terrorist organization (in the US and many other EU countries), it continues to operate under the direction of the Ukrainian Interior Ministry as part of the Ukrainian National Guard.

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/the-azov-regiment-has-not-depoliticized/

Although I had to expect the pro-Russian propaganda argument instead of a proper answer to such an important and relevant topic to the thread itself, you did not even bother to simply deny that Ukrainian Nazi-fascism exists, not even laughable but disgusting, if you ask me.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish here? You point out that Avakov was appointed in 2014, but fail to state that Zelenskyy was elected in 2019. Do you expect Zelenskyy to just up and fire people left and right and risk the entire regiment defecting?

Do you think Zelenskyy would even have been elected if the Ukrainian far-right had a significant influence on the people? I say this as someone living in a country with a growing far-right movement of its own with a damn protest scheduled in my town tomorrow that I WILL be counter-protesting; I am well aware that ANY influence is bad and should be stopped.

Since you're all gung-ho about your whataboutisms, here's one for you. Name me a country that doesn't have any of:
1. a far-right fringe
2. government officials that would completely fail any sort of ethics test

Ukrainians are literally fighting for their statehood. Frankly, shedding so much light on Ukraine's far-right is playing right into Putin's hands.

Putin, BTW, is also a massive hypocrite for using "denazification" as a reason for war considering Russia's own sizeable far-right.

 

[Chou Toshio]

They keep being good.

Krystal on Worthy vs Unworthy victims:

Saagar on why Trump Calling it a Holocaust BAD

 

[MrHands]

So we are all in agreement that Russia invading Ukraine is bad right? Like if nothing else, we're all in agreement that this is Russian imperialism fueled by cold war era paranoia and regardless of our differing opinions about other nations we can all come together and say that this invasion is a universally bad thing. Or is there someone in the audience who wants to make an argument why Putin is here to save the day by freeing the Ukrainians from *checks notes* Nazis?

 

[boo836]

Yeah, I was reading those too. So so so cringe... and racist...

...can't say I'm surprised unfortunately.





Hate on her all you like. I do if I ever watch a vid of theirs' that's terrible-- but then go on to feel embarrassed that they are much much more closer to your position on this issue (as am I...) and much much more informed about this issue than the majority of big lefty commentators or big swaths of the Online Left. If you despise that, either start your own leftie channel (that's in favor of hot war with Russia? That would certainly be new on Breadtube) or donate to people you genuinely like. I'm going to guess odds are that they are smaller than Breaking Points or Hassan or TYT.

You got a lot of Lefties watching RT and being stans for actual Russian State commentators.

As Vaush (who hates Saagar and Krystal) finds himself finding them reasonable on Ukraine, falls into a depression spiral about the state of the left and its inability to recognize Russia as Imperialist/Fasc.

part of my research is already being used for a major LeftTuber's video of a certain far-right figure and their affiliations with neo-Nazi student groups. And I'm STILL going to tell you to stop using YouTubers to inform yourself. Don't watch Vaush, don't pay attention to millionaire heir podcasters trying to curry influence in the DSA. No one is worth your attention, stick to academia, actual journalists and activist networks.

Ball and Enjeti can provide semi-accurate commentary on a subject and still be completely lacking in credibility. I don't assign credibility to people based on how much they agree with me. Both will lie to further their own careers, and in the case of Ball she's willing to defraud donors too. There's no reason for anyone to listen to a single thing they have to say at all. They could tell you that the sky is blue and I'd still urge you to check outside.

anyways, going to leave this here, there's no chance an NFZ would lead to nuclear war

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499586132396236801

I'm surprised you didn't say anything on Stepan Bandera's national day, so glorifying a figure who was involved with Nazism, and who led an organization widely attributed with the massacre of jews, is a completely normal thing that can go unnoticed without any problem. This was done through the Ukrainian Parliament, and yet you say they have no involvement with Nazism. You might want to look up those photos showing multiple far-right organizations carrying Nazi symbols on flags in the Ukrainian Parliament when Euromaidan.

Also, I'd die to ask such an honest, trustworthy, good, and genuine person that Zelensky is, why was Arsen Avakov under his government as Interior Minister until 2021 (the longest-serving minister, being first appointed by Poroshenko in 2014), someone whose connections with Ukrainian fascism are not only known throughout the country, but who is also behind the Azov regiment. Such regiment continues to operate with impunity under Zelensky's government, so much that even after being labeled as a neo-Nazi terrorist organization (in the US and many other EU countries), it continues to operate under the direction of the Ukrainian Interior Ministry as part of the Ukrainian National Guard.

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/the-azov-regiment-has-not-depoliticized/

Although I had to expect the pro-Russian propaganda argument instead of a proper answer to such an important and relevant topic to the thread itself, you did not even bother to simply deny that Ukrainian Nazi-fascism exists, not even laughable but disgusting, if you ask me.

I don't deny the existence of Nazis in Ukraine. What I deny are assertions completely disconnected from reality that insist Ukraine is some Nazi state, or dominated politically by neo-Nazis. MOREOVER, I maintain that people who try making these claims are being intentionally disingenuous, as you VERY clearly are. Putin installed actual neo-Nazi associates like Zakharchenko and Borodai to run his little colonies annexed from Ukraine. Putin's proxy Assad has the world's largest neo-Nazi party serving in his government. If you were genuinely concerned about neo-Nazis (spoiler for anyone who doesn't know yet, I have been hospitalised by actual Nazis), you wouldn't be concern trolling over wildly inflated narratives of neo-Nazi influence in Ukraine.

Propped by Russian neo-Nazis, Kremlin anti-Semitic proxies warn of mounting ’Ukrainian fascism’ (khpg.org)

Pro-Assad Lobby Group Rewards Bloggers On Both The Left And The Right

Ukrainians are literally fighting for their statehood. Frankly, shedding so much light on Ukraine's far-right is playing right into Putin's hands.

Putin, BTW, is also a massive hypocrite for using "denazification" as a reason for war considering Russia's own sizeable far-right.

That's the thing, no one's really shedding any light on the realities of the Ukrainian far-right. They're purposefully overhyping the influence of far-right entities in Ukraine to lend credence to the "denazification" lie that Russia's used for several years. Anyone who knows ANYTHING about the Russo-Ukrainian conflict or transnational right-wing extremist networks is that Russia is doing EXACTLY what these people accuse Ukraine of, and almost always on a greater scale than what those accusations entail. Knowing that, it makes no sense whatsoever to bring up shit like Azov unless you're trying to further a particular narrative



This old clip is going viral again and it's worth sharing here. President Zelenskyy's goal has always been to build an inclusive Ukraine. This is what unscrupulous and ignorant people are trying to portray as an ally of neo-Nazis:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1183378101788540928

 

[Chou Toshio]

Liked your post for the other responses but this is so intellectually shallow:

part of my research is already being used for a major LeftTuber's video of a certain far-right figure and their affiliations with neo-Nazi student groups. And I'm STILL going to tell you to stop using YouTubers to inform yourself. Don't watch Vaush, don't pay attention to millionaire heir podcasters trying to curry influence in the DSA. No one is worth your attention, stick to academia, actual journalists and activist networks.

Ball and Enjeti can provide semi-accurate commentary on a subject and still be completely lacking in credibility. I don't assign credibility to people based on how much they agree with me. Both will lie to further their own careers, and in the case of Ball she's willing to defraud donors too. There's no reason for anyone to listen to a single thing they have to say at all. They could tell you that the sky is blue and I'd still urge you to check outside.

Wrong. Completely-wrong headed for the era we live in. Because for myself and huge swaths of the proletariat it’s not a choice between Media and Academia/“Real Journalism” (“double check the credibility of sources yourself!!”)—

It’s a choice between Media and not being informed at all. Given that choice, big big swaths choose media. That’s just the reality of a Full Time job under capitalism, raising 2 kids and supporting their HW/Extra Curricular Activities/Having a Life partner to make1-1 Time For/Having a Hobby (Individual Life Passion)/Other Business (Taxes/Paper Work/House Cleaning/etc etc etc).

Most folks don’t have time to sit down, allocate, think through it deeply. That’s a big problem for the Left, which really relies on the sentiment of “Most people” for any power.

Media, mainstream or alternate, fits into the cracks of life in 4-10 minute consumable bits and through the miracle of the era does so anywhere/anytime through our devices. Curating means even more time for content, less time/effort needed to hunt it down. Not just me, but the majority of people are going to have their worlds shaped not through active research, but the bits they can absorb through this semi-passive consumption.

And especially for the Leftists, which derive pretty much ALL their power from democratic forces, from the wider proletariat— it’s absolutely their responsibility to be in this game of media and win it. “Do more or better research” is not a legitimate strategy or sentiment for actually viable leftism. The only viable thing you can say is “Don’t watch channel X, watch channel Y,” because to actually win hearts and minds the Left needs to have any power, the onus can’t be on the consumer to expel more effort under capitalism—onus has to be on change agents (Leftists) looking to win those hearts and minds.

You have to play in the format being broadly consumed and win. “Don’t Consume [format X]” is just wrong politics— especially for the Left.


Things the left should understand about media:
-Nothing good in this world happens without human action [Labor]
-Actions that empower the Left (donations, votes, protest, strikes, boycotts, etc) are also [Labor]
-In order for any Labor to occur, human beings must be motivated to Labor
-Media is the only real viable way to motivate the proletariat to labor for their own interests
-Media Production is also Labor— Very Costly Labor in terms of time, equipment, quality insurance, research, digital strategy (beating the algorithms), etc etc etc

-> Leftists ignore Media at their peril. They must not only engage in it, but be grateful for those amongst their ranks who pursue it. I’m not only going to keep consuming LeftTube, but keep recommending it to people and keep being grateful for the Labor of comrades that goes into spreading democratic ideas and shitting on the right.
Every struggle, every war between peoples, classes, nations is a meme war-- whether those memes are shooting each other's carriers in armed combat or ratioing each other on Twitter. Every War is a war of ideas, and choosing to ignore a given front (medium) of that struggle doesn't negate its relevance to material reality.