Sawsbuck (BW2 Revamp) [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]


@Choice Specs
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The Great Prince of the Forest wants to use his other forms :[

QC Approved 3/3
(Jukain, BKC, alexwolf)

GP Approved 2/2
(Governess, GatoDelfuego)​


<p>Venusaur may be the most dominant Chlorophyll sweeper, but Sawsbuck has several qualities that make it an excellent choice for any sun team. Many sun teams struggle with threats such as Latias, Heatran, and Volcarona. But with its physical orientation, unusual Normal/Grass typing, and Fighting- and Ground-type coverage moves, Sawsbuck can reliably deal with all of these Pokemon. Sawsbuck is also one of the fastest Chlorophyll users, meaning that it will have the advantage against sun teams that rely on a different Chlorophyll user as their main sweeper, as it can outspeed and OHKO all of them. Compared to Venusaur, Sawsbuck is also a much better all-out attacker, often not even needing a Swords Dance boost to clean up teams. It also discourages the opponent from changing the weather, as all of the weather starters can be OHKOed by one of Sawsbuck's coverage moves.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, although Normal/Grass may be a stellar offensive typing, it is rather lacking defensively, as it leaves Sawsbuck with a common weakness to Fighting-type moves. Sawsbuck also has pitiful bulk, which means that it can be easily picked off by strong priority users such as Breloom, Scizor, and Mamoswine. It also has a hard time finding the time to set up a Swords Dance due to its frailty. Additionally, its sweep can be cut short, as it loses much of its threat level when the weather isn't sunny. But if you can manage to keep the weather sunny, you will be well rewarded with one of the best revenge killers in the game.</p>


name: Chlorophyll Sweeper
move 1: Horn Leech
move 2: Double Edge / Return
move 3: Nature Power / Jump Kick
move 4: Swords Dance / Megahorn
item: Life Orb
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe


<p>In the sun, Sawsbuck becomes one of the most fearsome revenge killers in the metagame. Factoring in Chlorophyll, Sawsbuck's Speed reaches a massive 578, which means it outspeeds the entire unboosted tier and every Pokemon that commonly carries a Choice Scarf. Horn Leech is the main STAB move, hitting bulky Water-types as well as Pokemon such as Tyranitar and Terrakion. It also heals Sawsbuck for half the damage dealt to the opponent. This helps mitigate Life Orb and possibly Double-Edge recoil. Double-Edge is the secondary STAB move. It is useful for getting KOs on Pokemon such as Latios, offensive Latias, Dragonite, Salamence, and Venusaur, all after Stealth Rock damage, even without a Swords Dance boost. Return is another option, as Double-Edge in addition to Life Orb recoil can quickly add up. Return also gets many of the same OHKOs as Double-Edge after a Swords Dance boost, but Double-Edge is the preferred option because it doesn't require a boost. The third moveslot largely depends on what your team struggles with most. Nature Power becomes Earthquake on Wi-Fi and simulators, and it can deal massive damage to Jirachi and Heatran. On the other hand, Jump Kick can OHKO Tyranitar, and a +2 Jump Kick can OHKO Ferrothorn and Air Balloon Heatran. Swords Dance can boost Sawsbuck's Attack to a massive 656, and grabbing one can lead to a late-game sweep. At +2, Sawsbuck is able to grab many OHKOs it can't without the boost. It can OHKO Ferrothorn and Balloon Heatran with Jump Kick, Tyranitar and defensive Politoed with Horn Leech, and Scizor with Nature Power. Megahorn can be used instead to hit Latios and Latias without having to rely on Double-Edge, and OHKO standard Celebi. It is also the only move in Sawsbuck's arsenal that can OHKO 252 HP Latias, a huge threat to sun teams, after Stealth Rock.</p>


<p>Sawsbuck's EV spread lets it Speed tie with other max Speed Sawsbuck and maximizes its Attack. Wild Charge is an interesting option, as it can 2HKO Skarmory at +2, but giving up another coverage move to use it is generally not worth it. Besides, if Skarmory switches in as Sawsbuck uses Swords Dance, Sawsbuck will die to Brave Bird regardless. Substitute can work in the last slot, as it protects Sawsbuck from being revenge killed, particularly from Breloom's Mach Punch and Mamoswine's Ice Shard. However, the recoil sustained from Substitute, Life Orb, and Double-Edge makes it an unappealing choice.</p>

<p>In terms of teammates, Ninetales is an absolute must. Without sun support, there is no reason to run Sawsbuck, as it needs the Speed boost from Chlorophyll to be effective. Volcarona makes for an excellent partner for Sawsbuck, as it can threaten Forretress, Ferrothorn, and Scizor, all of which threaten Sawsbuck. Sawsbuck can also eliminate Heatran, which walls Volcarona, making the two a formidable pair. Sawsbuck's teammates should be focused on overwhelming the opponent's defenses; Venusaur makes for a good partner, as it and Sawsbuck share similar counters, and few walls can continually switch in on both of them. Certain Dragon-types, such as Dragonite and Garchomp, fill the same role, as they can wear down Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Skarmory with powerful Outrages, and even Fire-type coverage moves. Garchomp in particular can be useful for taking out Jirachiif Sawsbuck runs Jump Kick over Nature Power.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Sawsbuck has a few other options it can run. A Choice Band set sounds appealing, as it gives Sawsbuck immediate attacking power.However,being locked into a move is undesirable for Sawsbuck, as it is very easily walled this way and Life Orb deals a similar amount of damage. A Baton Pass set can be useful, as Sawsbuck has plenty of useful boosting moves including Work Up, Swords Dance, and Agility. Natural Gift with an Occa Berry can get a surprise KO on Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Forretress, but giving up Life Orb to do this is generally not worth it. An Agility set with Sap Sipper could work, being able to get an Attack boost from Celebi and Ferrothorn, but it's extremely gimmicky and hard to pull off.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>The best way to handle Sawsbuck is to simply change the weather. While base 95 Speed is fantastic with a boost from Chlorophyll, it is pretty lackluster without it. Combined with Sawsbuck's frailty, it isn't hard to revenge kill without the sun up. In terms of Pokemon that can take a hit, Skarmory is the best counter to Sawsbuck there is. It takes next to nothing from Double-Edge or even Jump Kick, and can either Whirlwind it away, Roost stall Sawsbuck out of Life Orb recoil, or KO it with Brave Bird. Forretress can take any of Sawsbuck's moves and either OHKO it with a Gyro Ball or set up entry hazards. Ferrothorn can wall most of Sawsbuck's moves, only fearing a +2 Jump Kick. Jirachi can wall any set lacking Nature Power, and can threaten Sawsbuck with paralysis. Gengar resists Horn Leech and Megahorn, is immune to Sawsbuck's other moves, and only risks an OHKO from a boosted Horn Leech. Chandelure is in a similar boat, but it has to watch out for Nature Power, which is a clean OHKO even without a Swords Dance boost. Sableye can burn Sawsbuck with priority Will-O-Wisp, but it still takes a hefty amount from +2 Horn Leech even when burned, and it can't Recover stall Sawsbuck because Horn Leech recovery negates burn and Life Orb recoil. Breloom can revenge kill Sawsbuck, as Mach Punch is an easy OHKO. Mamoswine can't cleanly OHKO with Ice Shard, but it can pick off Sawsbuck once it has taken a bit of prior damage. Choice Scarf Politoed and Tyranitar can both revenge kill Sawsbuck with Ice Beam and Superpower, respectively, but they have to be wary of locking themselves into an undesirable move and losing momentum.</p>
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pushing back the tide
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I think ScarfTar deserves a mention in the checks and counters section for the same reason you gave to ScarfToed. Gengar should also get a mention, since it resists all of Sawsbuck's listed attacking options, and can actually take a hit if it's unboosted. Also, you should emphasize that the loss of sun really hampers Sawsbuck's effectiveness.

An all-out attacker set is cool, but it's not strong enough on its own. Placing it in OO, which you've already done, seems to be the best course of action IMO. Do you think a Choice Band set a la Stoutland deserves a mention in OO at least?


@Choice Specs
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I thought about a Choice Band set. I think it's probably worth at least a mention in OO, so I'll do that. Originally I had thought that locking yourself into Grass or Normal moves was probably a bad idea, but I guess that;s why it's in OO! And I'll be sure to mention ScarfTar and Gengar in the counters section, as well as more of an emphasis on the loss of sun being a huge detriment to Sawsbuck's usefulness. Thanks, Trinitrotoluene!


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When you write this up, definitely stress how hard it is for Sawsbuck to setup an SD due to it's poor bulk and defensive typing. The only good times it ever has to setup is when forcing out a switch, so it requires careful prediction. Tie that into why Double-Edge is preferably slashed over Return, because Sawsbuck needs to have that instant power without having to find the rare opportunities to setup.


@Choice Specs
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Yep! In fact, the reason I wanted to include an all-out-attacker set is because Sawsbuck has such difficulty setting up. But I'll be sure to include that and why Double Edge is preferred. Thanks Gary.


lurks in the shadows
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Iirc you didn't get permission to make the revamp Halcyon so don't make any progress until we decide if a revamp is indeed needed or if the changes can be done via SCMS.


outside the box confining those outside the box
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your spread is speed creeping

112 hp / 248 atk / 148 spe allows you to outspace scarf lati in sun and have a life orb #. the ev moved out of atk and put into hp gives you an odd hp # as well which minimizes residual damage.

i feel like swords dance isn't necessary at all and i'd put it last and slash megahorn with it.. but i'll let others discuss its necessity (or lack thereof) on the set.


lurks in the shadows
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Imo, Sawsbuck needs enough Speed to outrun max Speed Timid Venusaur, as fucking up opposing sun offense is one of its major pros. Also, totally agreeing with Dice for Megahorn to be slashed after Swords Dance, as it OHKOs Latios (without the need of Double Edge and all that recoil), Hydreigon (same as Latios), Latias, and Celebi, making it much easier to clean up teams without setting up.
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@Choice Specs
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Alright, I'll slash Megahorn after Swords Dance and move it to the last moveslot. Alexwolf, do you want me to use the current EV spread, which outspeeds the standard Venusaur? Or 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe which outspeeds 252+ Venusaur? Just want to clarify.


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Just on an optics point of view, it looks really shitty having a set called "Swords Dance" and then having it slashed with Megahorn.

Because 2 QC members support Megahorn getting a slash, the easiest solution is to just to rename the set into something like "Cloro Sweeper" or something generic.


@Choice Specs
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Ok, I changed the name to Chlorophyll Sweeper. I originally had it as Swords Dance in case QC wanted em to add an all-out-attacker set, but it doesn't seem like it's necessary now, so the name has been changed.


lurks in the shadows
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Just use 252 Atk / 252 Spe with Adamant. 240 Spe are needed to outspeed Timid max Speed Venusaur and the rest 12 EVs don't help take any certain hit so they go to Speed in order to Speed tie with opposing Sawsbuck and other base 95s outside of sun.


pushing back the tide
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Since the listed set is basically an all-out attacker, I think you should remove the bullet mentioning an all-out attacker set in the OO of this analysis.
overview said:
  • Sweeping potential is lost without Drought support
Say without sun up, because Drought support isn't some burden.

Also, it doesn't rely on SD to do real can just run Megahorn.

On Jump Kick:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Jump Kick vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 147-174 (44.95 - 53.21%) -- 92.58% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Skarm switches in as you SD and kills with Brave Bird/Roosts to LO stall you out/phazes you. You don't /really/ beat Skarmory. Mention Air Balloon Heatran as another important mon to hit.

ac said:
  • EVs let you outrun max speed Venusaur.
Mention "and Speed tie opposing Sawsbuck" because they do.

AC needs Steel killers -- I mean Ferrothorn and Skarm really. Stock sun Fire-type + Ninetales works, but mention this!

In C&C, you mention Scarf weather inducers. I have two main beefs with your mentions:

- Scarf Politoed runs Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Surf or Psychic / Encore or Perish Song in today's metagame. Focus Blast is non-existent.

- Scarf Tyranitar is then Dugtrio bait, and sand proceeds to have trouble. Please mention this, as it's extremely important.

In C&C, Shuca Berry Jirachi needs a mention as a check.

Jump Kick variants lose to Chandelure.



Fix all of these things and you have my approval.
One slight thing that may just be me here, but here goes:

ac said:
Volcarona is great because Sawsbuck can take down Heatran and Volc sets up on Scizor, Skarmory, and Forretress.
Volcarona doesn't really "set up" on Skarmory, as it's either going to be Whirlwinded out or hit hard by a Brave Bird if Skarmory has the guts to stay in, as many do. Yes, Volc can murder it dead with sun-boosted attacks (if Sturdy is broken of course), but it can't easily set up. I know it's a tiny nitpick, but I'm just throwing it out there.


lurks in the shadows
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Overview said:
Many sun teams struggle to deal with threats such as Latias, Heatran, and Dragonite,
Although Sawsbuck can check Dragonite, it doesn't like Extremspeed one bit, so i would rather if you replace the Dragonite mention with Volcarona, another Pokemon sun teams struggle against and Sawsbuck is able to revenge kill without losing any life.

I would also like you to mention in the overview how Sawsbuck is a better all-out attacker than Venusaur, making it a better cleaner if you can't find a setup chance (although Venusaur usually finds), thanks to Sawsbuck's much stronger STAB (Reutrn and Double-Edge) and coverage moves (Megahorn and Natural Power).

In Sawsbuck's cons in the overview, add that unlike Venusaur, it has difficult setting up SD, and often if it predicts wrong its going to cost it its life.

Set Comments said:
In the sun, Sawsbuck becomes one of the most fearsome sweepers in the tier.
I would change this to revenge killer and cleaner, as Sawsbuck is not so easy to get full sweeps with, due to Steel-types checking it pretty hard and being very weak to priority.

Set Comments said:
Megahorn can be used instead to hit Latios and Latias without having to rely on Double Edge, and OHKO standard Celebi.
Megahorn is not just for avoiding the recoil from Double-Edge, it is the only move in Sawsbuck's movepool that can OHKO 252 HP Latias after SR (93.68 - 110.71% -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock) so make sure to mention that.

And the opponent will very rarely ever switch Skarmory in on a +2 Wild Charge, since it takes a turn to set up.
I don't get what you are trying to say here. Do you mean that Sawsbuck will never find a chance to 2HKO Skarmory because it will die from Brave Bird before doing so? Because that's the reason why Wild Volt is not that useful.

Correct those and

QC Approved 3/3

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