Scizor (Choice Scarf)

SoT

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READ THIS BEFORE POSTING ANYTHING ABOUT THIS SET NOT BEING ON-SITE! NEXT PERSON(S) THAT POST WITHOUT AN ACTUAL ARGUMENT GETS AN INFRACTION - Colonel M

Scizor @ Choice Scarf
Jolly - 252 Attack / 244 Speed / 12 HP
Technician
- U-Turn
- Pursuit
- Superpower
- Bullet Punch / Iron Head / Night Slash



- Outspeeds Max Jolly Scarf Tar
- Outspeeds + Speed, 252 Spe EV base 115s (Latias / Starmie)
- Quick revenge killer, and a good scouter
- Partners: Bulky waters such as Suicune / Swampert or Heatran. Many switches are often a Fire- or Steel-type Pokemon, so they all can take advantage of it in one way or another. Infernape, Salamence, Heatran all work well with Latias and Starmie out of the way as well, and provide some type coverage as well.
- Counters: Skarmory, Swampert and Suicune for the most part. It's moves don't exactly damage nearly as much since the loss of power from CB, (however they still do a decent amount)

I've tested this recently and it's been working rather well, it even works out as a lead. Outpaces lead Azelf, etc.




updated: I made some edits so far. Will get this up by sunday.
 
This looks great SoT. My only change would be to slash Iron Head / Night Slash over Bullet Punch, since Pursuit is more important on this set, IMO. Also, in these outlines I would like to see what you plan on talking about for potential partners, counters, etc.

I'll remind the rest of the QC crew to check this out, but it has my personal approval for now.

Edit: For partners, bring up Pokemon that take advantage of the absence of Latias and Starmie and other Pokemon this set guarantees elimination of. Infernape comes to mind as a huge one who can also beat Steel types who switch in.

Edit 2: Thanks to plus, we now have an official QC stamp of approval! xD. If you get 3 official stamps of approval, I will move your topic to its proper forum with a one day redirect.

 

Plus

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Phil told me to post here, so I approve this set given the circumstances that phil has outlined.

 

Seven Deadly Sins

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I disagree with slashing Iron Head over Bullet Punch. Since the Steel Attack is really not the draw of the set, it's the least likely to be used. Iron Head provides 33% more power, but Bullet Punch does cool stuff like outspeed Mach Punch SD Breloom / Infernape (resisted yeah yeah, every little bit of potential damage helps), Ice Shard Mamoswine, and Extremespeed Lucario / Dragonite. Sure it might not be a HUGE deal, but consider that fast priority has much more utility than Iron Head and Night Slash.
 

Reverb

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I don't understand why you'd want Pursuit on this set since without Choice Band it is not going to OHKO Latias on the switch or do all the things Pursuit should do. Rather, it will give the opponent free setup opportunities. Therefore, I'd recommend replacing Pursuit with Night Slash.
 
I don't understand why you'd want Pursuit on this set since without Choice Band it is not going to OHKO Latias on the switch or do all the things Pursuit should do. Rather, it will give the opponent free setup opportunities. Therefore, I'd recommend replacing Pursuit with Night Slash.
Pursuit gets a Technician boost if they don't switch out. It does the same damage output as Scarf Tyranitar.

As for Iron Head, I actually had a discussion about that on IRC and I think that although Bullet Punch is usually better, Iron head has some merits (more power, chance to flinch if you're in a pinch, etc.). Most other priority attacks won't hit Scizor very hard anyways, and Bullet Punch does minimal damage to most Pokemon who would be using said priority attacks.
 

SoT

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For clarification, Night Slash and Iron Head are additional comments. I just posted them in the set so you know I kept them in mind.
 
I disagree with slashing Iron Head over Bullet Punch. Since the Steel Attack is really not the draw of the set, it's the least likely to be used. Iron Head provides 33% more power, but Bullet Punch does cool stuff like outspeed
+1 DDmence and scarfers are more important than the stuff listed in this post, and I think being able to hit +1 DDmence is very important so I agree.

edit: I'm fine with including Iron Head in the slashes but I'd definitely put Bullet Punch as the primary option.
 
+1 DDmence and scarfers are more important than the stuff listed in this post, and I think being able to hit +1 DDmence is very important so I agree.
I also think it's very important to do so too, which is why I said Bullet Punch is usually better. However, Jolly unboosted Bullet Punch doesn't do too much vs. DD Mence, and Iron Head would help out more vs. something like Mix Mence. Anyways, I don't see the point in not at least mentioning Iron Head as an option in AC. If I'm alone on this, I'll withdraw though.
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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I want them as an option, but nowhere near the main option for that slot. Bullet Punch is just too useful to be passed up in a case like this.
 

remlabmez

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I disagree with this being posted, what exactly is this set doing that scarftar isnt? other than not summon sandstream, sure you can gimmick a uturn on starmie on a revenge but the opponent knows that a scizor is scarf and loses its power that CB set contains
 
To be perfectly honest, I don't think this set is worth it either. Choice Scarf Scizor seems like a gimmick to me at best. What exactly is this set trying to accomplish that Choice Band Scizor does not? You mention that it is used for scouting and getting quick revenge kills, but Choice Band Scizor already does this, if not better. Scizor already forces out a huge amount of switches, and I would much rather hit the switch in with a considerably harder U-turn than a weak one. Also, Choice Band Scizor is a better revenge killer due to the greater power of Bullet Punch (and Quick Attack, even though it is uncommon).

I think Choice Scarf Scizor relies mostly on the surprise tactic, as once your opponent knows that you are Choice Scarfed, its so much easier to handle it. You lose a ton of power (591 dropping down to 359) so your attacks are way weaker than normal. I don't think there is any instance where Choice Scarf Scizor does something Choice Band Scizor can't anyway. For example, Choice Scarf Scizor can U-turn against a Latias first, but Choice Band Scizor can Bullet Punch Latias (it can still U-turn as well); Choice Scarf Scizor can Iron Head Gengar to death, but Choice Band Scizor outright kills it with Bullet Punch. I bet there are more, but I don't want to go on a rant. By the way, being Choice-locked into that weak of a Pursuit is asking for a Pokemon to setup. So, if there really is any significant advantage of using Choice Scarf instead of Choice Band, I'd like to know. You know, not even 0/0 Heatran is OHKOed by Superpower (76.78% - 91.02%), which I guess is one of the advantages Scarf Scizor has over Band Scizor, but even then, Band Scizor can predict the switch-in.

Look how much weaker this is:

Scarf U-turn vs 252 HP Adamant Metagross: 25.55% - 29.95%
Band U-turn: 41.48% - 48.90%

Scarf U-turn vs 252 HP/252 Def Relaxed Swampert: 21.78% - 25.99%
Band U-turn: 35.89% - 42.57%

Scarf Superpower vs 248 HP Adamant Scizor: 38.19% - 45.19%
Band Superpower: 62.68% - 74.05%

Scarf Bullet Punch vs 0 HP Salamence: 35.65% - 42.60%
Band Bullet Punch: 58.91% - 69.18%

Scarf Bullet Punch vs 0 HP Latias: 35.88% - 42.19%
Scarf U-turn: 83.72% - 98.34%
Band Bullet Punch: 58.80% - 69.10%
Band U-turn: 100.00%

Those are just a few calculations. But, do notice that using Choice Band is almost always the better option in those calculations and is better in terms of scouting and revenge killing. This set looks really underwhelming to me. Thoughts?
 

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I pretty much agree with everything Phil said, also I think u-turn alone makes it play differently from scarf tar. It does lose the power of cb set, but gains the advantages of being able to always revenge stuff like Gengar, Starmie and Latias so as far as i'm concern I approve.


 
Okay, that's three approvals. I'm moving this to OU with a one-day redirect in case anybody has anything else to say. Feel free to start writing SoT.

@Fuzznip: The benefit is the fast Technician Pursuit. It allows you to checkmate things like Latias and Starmie without kicking up SS like TTar does, letting Pokemon like Infernape sweep later with greater ease.
 
I pretty much agree with everything Phil said, also I think u-turn alone makes it play differently from scarf tar. It does lose the power of cb set, but gains the advantages of being able to always revenge stuff like Gengar, Starmie and Latias so as far as i'm concern I approve.
How is this a gained advantage? Scizor is still fully capable of revenge killing Gengar and Latias, and does a decent amount of damage to Starmie with Bullet Punch, or it can just use U-turn or Pursuit. If you want to use Choice Scarf Scizor so you can gain the upper-hand against Starmie, then you are silly.
 
Edit: Scarf means that you don't have to worry about HP Fire that Gengar commonly carries. Scarf Scizor plays similarly to Scarf Flygon. Easily resisted, but dangerous in that it can UTurn to a counter. Additionally, I think Bug Bite might deserve a slash, as it's Scizor's strongest move and useful lategame or when you need crucial KOs.

Edit Edit: LO Starmie nearly OHKOs band Scizor with Hydro Pump and SR.

Perhaps mention that when used as a lead, Tyranitar is useful as a partner, as UTurning to Tyranitar will KO leads such as Azelf, Roserade, and Smeargle through their sashes.
 

Ice-eyes

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Yeah, you could Bullet Punch things like Latias and Scarf Tyranitar, but the fast U-Turn is one of the big attractions of this set. Probably the biggest issue with using Band Scizor (or ScarfTar) to kill things like Gengar is that a) you're screwed if they switch and you don't predict it and b) even if they don't switch, you still give them the opportunity for them to come in and set up. Scarf Scizor can come in on Latias or Tyranitar, U-Turn, and know that whatever happens they'll be in a favourable position at the end of the turn.

I personally think this set is worth a write-up.
 

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Fast U-turn is incredible, and unlike Flygon and Jirachi, Scizor's U-turn does solid damage instead of just hitting like a pussy off of no STAB and 100 base Attack. Also, Scarf Superpower is pretty legit, and makes this set capable of revenging both Bullet Punch AND Extremespeed variants of Lucario, something Tyranitar cannot do. Also, I've seen a lot of top players turning to Bullet Punch Luke to beat Scarftar, which really makes this set worthwhile.
 
How is this a gained advantage? Scizor is still fully capable of revenge killing Gengar and Latias, and does a decent amount of damage to Starmie with Bullet Punch, or it can just use U-turn or Pursuit. If you want to use Choice Scarf Scizor so you can gain the upper-hand against Starmie, then you are silly.
CB Bullet doesn't come close to OHKOing Latias, and like someone else said, good luck getting around HP Fire coming from Latias and MysticGar. Having a fast Pursuit allows Scizor to checkmate all three of these fast special attackers, saying "I don't care if you stay in to attack, or switch, I'm hitting you first and finishing you off for good." This advantage over the Choice Band set is fairly obvious IMO...
 
Choice Scarf Scizor's Pursuit doesn't come close to OHKOing Latias either, as it only does 63.79% - 75.08% on a fleeing Latias (enough HP for it to switch back in and Recover the health lost). Should Latias stay in, it does 47.84% - 56.48%, allowing it to HP Fire Scizor to death. Also, U-turn only has a 74% chance to OHKO Latias with Stealth Rock in play, which a) can leave Latias alive and b) ruins the Choice Scarf strategy. This is assuming Latias with 0 HP and Def. Pursuit can't even manage to OHKO Gengar should it stay in, dealing 75.86% - 89.66%, so Gengar can still hit it with Hidden Power Fire as your Bullet Punch is too weak to OHKO it. Same goes for Starmie, Pursuit manages 57.47% - 68.20% if Starmie stays in (77.39% - 91.19% if it switches out), allowing it to finish Scizor off with a Life Orb Hydro Pump. Realize that these calcs are not with the defense version of Starmie, which is not uncommon. So really, Pursuit is not always going to work against these Pokemon as it's not strong enough to KO them.
 
I don't really think it needs to ko them, because these days its usually scarf/specs/lo latias and lo starmie so pursuit just helps to wear them down, and with sr and the damage from pursuit, they wont want to switch back in anymore, and you can't just assume that they'll be at full health all the time. rocks are so prevalent in today's metagame that they're bound to be up, so ya, i see the advantages of scarf scizor.
 
CB Bullet doesn't come close to OHKOing Latias, and like someone else said, good luck getting around HP Fire coming from Latias and MysticGar. Having a fast Pursuit allows Scizor to checkmate all three of these fast special attackers, saying "I don't care if you stay in to attack, or switch, I'm hitting you first and finishing you off for good." This advantage over the Choice Band set is fairly obvious IMO...
Ehm, you say CB bullet punch doesn't come close to OHKOing Latias, but these jolly Scarf Pursuits + Uturns don't provide enough power to put behind the 'i dont care if you stay in' statement. Sure, Uturn could be decent. But in the case of pursuit, what if they decide to stay in to HP fire you anyway while you pursuit? 47.7% - 56.3% is what. :/ Wouldn't this Scizor put your team do more harm than good for your team in the long run? I'll try to test it later but the only real merit I see right now is the suprise factor.

Edit: i took long to post :(
 

Colonel M

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I think you need to realize that Scarf and Band play completely different from each other. First off, it's obvious that Choice Band is going to out damage Scarf altogether. That's not the real point of the set though. The main point is getting the extra Speed advantage for a quick U-turn, as in it makes switches easier to predict. A fast U-turn is sometimes better than a slow U-turn. After all, it prevents Scizor from taking more damage than it does from Stealth Rock. Getting the extra Speed over Starmie and Latias is already a decent advantage even if U-turn can fail to KO 1/4 U-turns. There's also Tyranitar support for that cause, which both aren't terrible pairings with each other. Getting a fast U-turn off is a pretty cool advantage, especially when Band lacks Roost in the first place and it doesn't have as major penalty if you mis-predict (i.e. using U-turn on a Life Orb Starmie).

I placed some skepticism on this set, but a lot of it was based on me theorymoning. I can see the concerns as to how they're valid, but at the same time I think the purpose of this set is being lost within said concerns. Just my 2 cents.
 
I've used Scarf Scizor to alright success about 4-6 months ago, when Scarftar wasn't nearly as common. So I guess I can "try" to give a suggestion; Aerial Ace.

I know, it sounds really gimmicky and redundant, but it actually gets harder hits on some important stuff. Machamp, Infernape and Breloom (although the latter is probably weak enough to not handle U-Turn) are just some common examples, and with Technician, it becomes a 90 Base Power move that never misses. Eh, I guess it isn't "a lot", but I don't see Iron Head and Night Slash doing "a lot" either way.
 
I can certainly see the benefit in coming in after something has died to say..a Latias ... and putting them in the pursuit/uturn situation...but I'm just going to leave it at (my opinion):

I don't think the bulk lost by moving EVs over to speed, added to the fact that the set is even more susceptible to being setup on than using CB makes using this set worthy of being using over CB unless in very situational circumstances. It is difficult to come in on even neutral boosted hits. Add to this entry hazards and it is going to be very hard coming in other than for a revenge kill. It does have suprise value, thats for sure :P
 

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