Share and Debate Basketball Takes

[Mubs]

approved by shade

Within the basketball world, you will see certain things called "takes". Opinions, thoughts, and beliefs. Some are good, like saying that 2013 Lebron James should have been a unanimous MVP, and some are utter garbage, like saying that Dwight Howard isn't a Hall of Famer. Let us all come together to share and debate these basketball takes.

I'll start:

• The Cavs and Warriors pretty much "Traded Championships"; Cavs would have won in 2015 if everyone was healthy, and the Warriors would have won in 2016 if it wasn't for Curry's injury in Round 1 and Draymond's suspension.
• Tim Duncan had a better career than Kobe Bryant, but Kobe is undoubtedly the better player.

 

[V-Creates]

The Warriors win the 2016 Finals:
Steph Curry gets Finals MVP
Assume KD still signs there that off-season

Where does Lebron James sit all time without that 2016 ring? This is my personal opinion, but excluding the 2016 Ring Lebron, here's my top 10

MJ (duh)
Kareem (Greatest longevity of greatness of all time, not a question)
Wilt (Greatest statistical anomaly ever.)
Magic (like all lists, you can swap Magic and Bird and I probably wouldn't have a problem with it)
Bird (see Magic)
Bill Russell (ngl I probably have a bit of recency bias, but I still firmly believe he was the greatest leader in all of basketball. However, his stats are pretty mid)
Tim Duncan (Honestly I would say he had one of the greatest resumes ever, but as an actual player, there is no doubting his greatness, just not measuring up to some of the other legends)
Curry (Four straight rings, 2 MVPs, and the undisputed greatest 3pt shooter of all time. (Note: 2016 Warriors might be the greatest all time with the ring, even with the 3 losses to OKC in the WCF)
Kobe (nothing I can say that hasn't already been said)
Lebron (There is a very strong argument that without the 2016 ring, Lebron would have never lead a team to a Championship if not for the Miami super team. Those Miami years still cannot be discounted for)

 

[Coronis]

The Warriors win the 2016 Finals:
Steph Curry gets Finals MVP
Assume KD still signs there that off-season

Where does Lebron James sit all time without that 2016 ring? This is my personal opinion, but excluding the 2016 Ring Lebron, here's my top 10

MJ (duh)
Kareem (Greatest longevity of greatness of all time, not a question)
Wilt (Greatest statistical anomaly ever.)
Magic (like all lists, you can swap Magic and Bird and I probably wouldn't have a problem with it)
Bird (see Magic)
Bill Russell (ngl I probably have a bit of recency bias, but I still firmly believe he was the greatest leader in all of basketball. However, his stats are pretty mid)
Tim Duncan (Honestly I would say he had one of the greatest resumes ever, but as an actual player, there is no doubting his greatness, just not measuring up to some of the other legends)
Curry (Four straight rings, 2 MVPs, and the undisputed greatest 3pt shooter of all time. (Note: 2016 Warriors might be the greatest all time with the ring, even with the 3 losses to OKC in the WCF)
Kobe (nothing I can say that hasn't already been said)
Lebron (There is a very strong argument that without the 2016 ring, Lebron would have never lead a team to a Championship if not for the Miami super team. Those Miami years still cannot be discounted for)

Think you’re underselling Russell/Duncan’s play here. Which doesn’t surprise me though, as blocks/steals weren’t recorded in Russell’s day, and good defense is much harder to measure through stats than offense in general. (not disagreeing with your rankings necessarily, just the descriptions).

Anyway saw Barkley say he reckons he’d rate Kawhi 4th all time behind Jordan, Kobe and LeBron if he wins the ring and FMVP this year. Everyone getting caught up in the moment so much.

 

[emma]

Kobe Bryant is no where close to a Top 10 Player of all time

 

[V-Creates]

Kobe Bryant is no where close to a Top 10 Player of all time

If I'm being totally honest, Kobe just seems like a mini-Jordan. There wasn't one single thing besides 81 that Kobe did that Jordan didn't do better. I think that his tragic passing has perhaps given people a bit of a nostalgia raise for Kobe, but I think Kobe anywhere from 9-12 is reasonable

 

[ButteredToast]

I did a class on Sports History, and put in quite a bit of research into this list.

1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
2. Michael Jordan
3. Lebron James
4. Tim Duncan
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Bill Russell
8. Wilt Chamberlain
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

 

[Captain Skywalker]

The 76ers should trade Joel Embiid and surround Ben Simmons with shooters.
Of course they won't do that because they let JJ Redick walk and signed Al Horford and Tobias Harris to big money
Also Sam Hinkie should have kept his job

 

[Lord Ninjax]

The 76ers should trade Joel Embiid and surround Ben Simmons with shooters.
Of course they won't do that because they let JJ Redick walk and signed Al Horford and Tobias Harris to big money
Also Sam Hinkie should have kept his job

here's my take: sam hinkie had no real idea what he was doing in terms of the tank - he was simply copying what the cubs and astros did earlier in the decade with the assumption that he only needed two or three superstars to make a champion - and even if he'd stayed on the sixers would still fail to reach a championship under his tenure (assuming that they didn't blow it all up again). by this token philadelphia's treating him like a martyr is stupid and pointless (like pretty much everything with philadelphia sports fans).

another take, my personal pet peeve: tanking culture is a direct byproduct of the player movement and superteam eras (aside from artificially stacked rosters disincentivising competition, on a more nuanced level the possibility of your star players playing superfriends when they hit free agency only gives teams more motivation to stack talent and win during the 7-8 years that they're on rookie or rookie extension contracts, when they're under team control). tanking probably would've occurred regardless (it's been done in small doses for years according to myth) but it only became an actual problem that the nba had to crack down on because it was artificially exacerbated by the chain of dominoes that followed lebron joining the heat (note that I'm distinguishing tanking from tanking culture, distinguishing a one-or-two year affair or just plain rebuilding from the scorched earth 5-year plan that the sixers made fashionable).

some other takes in no particular order:
okc should go down as the biggest failure in nba history if not professional sports in its entirety for failing to win even a single championship after drafting durant westbrook and harden in consecutive years.
raptors should edge the heat and spurs as the runner-up for 2010s team of the decade (warriors being the obvious #1). also the raptors would've beaten the warriors in 7 if assuming that both teams were fully healthy (yeah warriors would've won in 5 if kawhi's legs gave out, but so what lol).
best player of the decade should be steph and not lebron. dominating the game counts for less than changing how it works at a fundamental level, which steph did.
kawhi winning his 3rd finals mvp either this year or next would be valid criterion for him as top10 alltime (it would be unique circumstances amongst the top10 but the uniqueness of his journey and his accomplishments should justify it I feel)
the raptors trading kyle lowry for ben simmons straight up would be a win-win that the sixers really should go for. likewise, jayson tatum for giannis antetokounmpo (these ones are only like 70% serious but they actually make sense, can provide reasoning if requested).

 

[Mubs]

Forgot to reply to this

The Warriors win the 2016 Finals:
Steph Curry gets Finals MVP
Assume KD still signs there that off-season

Where does Lebron James sit all time without that 2016 ring? This is my personal opinion, but excluding the 2016 Ring Lebron, here's my top 10

Pretty sure KD said he wouldn't have joined them if they won. That makes me think that Lebron could have won in 17. People forget the 17 Cavs were above the Warriors in offensive rating (#1 when the kd warriors were #2) but they weren't as good defensively so idk.

Kobe Bryant is no where close to a Top 10 Player of all time

#NBATwitterPolice LOL. Man. People really have bad takes these days. Let me give you Kobe's accomplishments:

24

5 Championships (if you tell me he was carried by shaq I will not be happy lets just say)
1 Regular Season MVP
2 Finals MVPS
2x Scoring Champ
18 time All-Star (was injured in 3 of them so they shouldn't count ig)
11 time all NBA 1st team (15 all nba overall)

This is definitely top 10 material, though I'd say on the lower part.

1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
2. Michael Jordan
3. Lebron James
4. Tim Duncan
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Bill Russell
8. Wilt Chamberlain
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

This is quite an interesting top 10, especially with your placement of Hakeem at 10, Tim Duncan at 4, and Kareem over MJ. Over Lebron, maybe. Over the 2 3-peat, all-time ppg leader? No.

Here's my top 10 for anyone who wants to know:

8

1. Michael Jordan
2. Lebron James / Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar / Lebron James
4. Bill Russell
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Shaquille O'Neal

Thanks for reading and have a nice day.

 

[emma]

Imagine thinking this guy's one of the top 10 basketball players of all time LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

kobe v duncan

kobe v cp3

kobe v curry

kobe v kawhi

kobe v giannis

kobe v garnett

kobe v harden

kobe v hakeem

 

[shaian]

Kobe is a tough player to rank, he could reasonably be placed anywhere from 5-15 because of how congested that area is on the all-time list. That being said, I totally have him at 15 because the dude was a rapist. He fucking admitted to it and the brother gets a pass because he had damn nice footwork.

 

[ButteredToast]

This is quite an interesting top 10, especially with your placement of Hakeem at 10, Tim Duncan at 4, and Kareem over MJ. Over Lebron, maybe. Over the 2 3-peat, all-time ppg leader? No.

Hakeem is up so high because he just might be greatest defender of all time with the amount of steals and blocks he racked up in addition to the rebounding. He's got 600 more blocks than Dikembe and the way blocks are going now in the NBA, no one is probably going to be close to ever passing him unless the tapes of every Bill Russell game get uncovered and we can finally calculate his block stats. He gets knocked for only winning when Jordan left but literally anyone could have stepped up then and he did. And he took out Shaq in the process, so it wasn't like the league was handing him championships due to lack of competition. He's the only player in the NBA to win the MVP, DPoY, and Finals MVP in the same season. He is...uh... really good. Really really good.

Tim has 5 rings. Won 2 out of 3 against LeBron. The two wins were dominant, and they barely lost the middle one. Went up against the likes of KG and Dirk and Shaq, both top 20 players in their own right, and was absolutely better than all of them. He has no DPoYs, but made the NBA All Defensive teams 15 times and that's the most of all time. I still think Hakeem is the all around better defender, but he is up there. He also has 15 All NBA, tied for first with Kobe and Kareem. 15 All Star selections. His quiet personality really never made him "the guy" in the NBA, but he absolutely should have been. He was phenomenal.

I also think Kareem was, uh, good. Taking the whole scope of his career between high school, college, and the pros, I think he just barely edges out Jordan. The defense/blocks to me matter slightly more than Jordan going 6-0 compared to Kareem's 6-4. Don't personally think you can knock Kareem for finishing second when Jordan lost in the 1st round 3 times. And I think that even though Jordan won the 6 finals MVPs, Kareem making it 4 more times than Jordan is also impressive. They're practically 1a and 1b, and I'm not getting mad at people taking Jordan over him.

Kobe is a tough player to rank, he could reasonably be placed anywhere from 5-15 because of how congested that area is on the all-time list. That being said, I totally have him at 15 because the dude was a rapist. He fucking admitted to it and the brother gets a pass because he had damn nice footwork.

Does Karl Malone miss your top 50 by this logic?

 

[shaian]

He's like number 20~ish because of that logic since he too has a case for top 10~ to 20~ish. The players head of him includes the likes of Elgin Baylor, Charles Barkley, Oscar Robertson, Julius Erving, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, Kobe Bryant, Isaiah Thomas, and Moses Malone, which are hardly controversial choices. I prefer my all-time greats to not be pedo rapists, which is not a particularly high bar to clear.

 

[phoopes]

I think any GOAT/top 10/top whatever debate can benefit from linking The Backpicks GOAT series, it's a long but really worth it analysis and I think a good ranking of the top 40 careers in NBA history. It was last updated after last season so it's fairly recent too. I will say I think the list is a little too biased towards big men at the top, but I think it's a great read overall which is why I'm linking it.

That said, I am of the mindset that Kareem is the GOAT, and it's a cop-out but I really can't decide between Jordan and LeBron at two lol

 

[Celticpride]

Imagine thinking this guy's one of the top 10 basketball players of all time LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

kobe v duncan

View attachment 270817

kobe v cp3

View attachment 270818

kobe v curry

View attachment 270819

kobe v kawhi

View attachment 270820

kobe v giannis

View attachment 270825

kobe v garnett

View attachment 270830

kobe v harden

View attachment 270834

kobe v hakeem

View attachment 270844

Imagine using one advanced metric with shaky viability at best to determine a players career standing. Something that tries to normalize for “luck” over an 82 game season is overkill at best, Pythagorean win expectation in say football is really the limit of a luck neutralizing statistic and that sport plays way shorter season and as a result has way more variance.

E: I’m generally of the opinion that if you jump to the latest advanced metric to prove a players worth as a first resort then you’re missing the big picture. It’s a flimsy way to debate it and has a flavor of the month feel to it.

 

[Celticpride]

My top 10 list goes something like:

Jordan
Russell
Duncan
Lebron
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Shaq
West

With Kobe, Hondo, Big O and Hakeem the next 4 in some order. After Magic 9 through 14 is basically an even playing field imo.

 

[Coronis]

Personally I don’t have Kobe in my top 10, though its not a crazy idea for anyone who does have him in there.

My list would (today) be:

Jordan
Kareem
LeBron
Russell
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Duncan
Olajuwon
Shaq

For the past few years it has always contained the same 10 players, the order has varied quite a bit though. Jordan has remained at #1 throughout.

 

[V-Creates]

Ok I got talking with someone about this and I believe it could be very interesting.

Who is the greatest Defensive Player ever?
Now my first guess would be Bill Russell. While we technically don't know his stats, it's safe to say he was dominant on the defensive side of the ball.
Olajuwon comes to mind. Blocking and rebounding machine and had a respectable amount of steels.
Curveball-Gary Payton. Best Guard defender ever. They don't call him the Glove for nothing.
What others do you guys think of

 

[Coronis]

I only think of Bill Russell tbh, he was just on his own level.

 

[TheValkyries]

I wish we had videos of all of those games back in russel/chamberlain days. I'm sure both of them had a ridiculous amount of shot blocks.

 

[Coronis]

I wish we had videos of all of those games back in russel/chamberlain days. I'm sure both of them had a ridiculous amount of shot blocks.

The difference was however, Chamberlain would simply swat them away, Russell was an expert at deflecting them to teammates to start fast breaks, a huge part of those Celtics teams success.

 

[PokeYO]

approved by shade

Within the basketball world, you will see certain things called "takes". Opinions, thoughts, and beliefs. Some are good, like saying that 2013 Lebron James should have been a unanimous MVP, and some are utter garbage, like saying that Dwight Howard isn't a Hall of Famer. Let us all come together to share and debate these basketball takes.

I'll start:

• The Cavs and Warriors pretty much "Traded Championships"; Cavs would have won in 2015 if everyone was healthy, and the Warriors would have won in 2016 if it wasn't for Curry's injury in Round 1 and Draymond's suspension.
• Tim Duncan had a better career than Kobe Bryant, but Kobe is undoubtedly the better player.

These are all actually good points!

Except for the Tim Duncan had a better career than Kobe. I think Kobe's career was better, it was just Tim and his teams were more consistent.

 

[Icemann]

All time point guards
1. Magic
2. Stockton
3. Curry
4. Isiah
5. Steve Nash
6. Jason Kidd (real close with nash)
7. GP
8. Cp3 (super close with GP, and maybe soon will go up list)

All time list
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
----------
3. Lebron
4. Magic
5. Bill Russell
6. Bird
7. Kobe
8. Tim Duncan
-----------
9. Wilt
10. Shaq
11. Hakeem
12. Malone

Other arguable top 12's are big O, curry, stockton, dirk, kg, david robinson, and KD

 

[Coronis]

All time point guards
1. Magic
2. Stockton
3. Curry
4. Isiah
5. Steve Nash
6. Jason Kidd (real close with nash)
7. GP
8. Cp3 (super close with GP, and maybe soon will go up list)

All time list
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
----------
3. Lebron
4. Magic
5. Bill Russell
6. Bird
7. Kobe
8. Tim Duncan
-----------
9. Wilt
10. Shaq
11. Hakeem
12. Malone

Other arguable top 12's are big O, curry, stockton, dirk, kg, david robinson, and KD

Big O is an arguable top 12 but not on the top PG’s? Also surely Cousy gotta be there somewhere. Also Moses or Karl Malone in that 12 spot?

So I was randomly going through my notes on my phone tonight and found this interesting one from when i was bored af near the start of COVID, which has a top 11 all time of every position, top 12 all time overall, top 10 by decade and top 5 players for the future so i thought i’d share.

Magic, Oscar, Steph, Stockton, Isiah, Cousy, CP3, Westbrook, Nash, Kidd, Frazier
Jordan, Kobe, West, Wade, Harden, Iverson, Drexler, Gervin, Miller, Allen, Jones
LeBron, Bird, KD, Baylor, Dr. J, Havlicek, Kawhi, Pippen, Barry, Dominique, Worthy
Duncan, Malone, Garnett, Barkley, Pettit, Dirk, McHale, Webber, Schayes, Hayes, Rodman
Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Hakeem, Shaq, Moses, Robinson, Ewing, Mikan, Walton, Reed

Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Kobe
Oscar

50’s
Mikan Schayes Cousy Pettit Arizin Johnston Macauley Sharman Russell Stokes
60’s
Russell Chamberlain Robertson Baylor West Pettit Jones Greer Bellamy Lucas
70’s
Kareem Erving Barry Maravich Havlicek Hayes Frazier Gilmore Gervin Walton
80’s
Magic Bird Malone Kareem Isiah Erving Dantley English Jordan Wilkins
90’s
Jordan Olajuwon Malone Pippen Stockton Robinson Ewing Barkley Drexler Shaq
00’s
Duncan Kobe LeBron Shaq Iverson Dirk Garnett Nash Wade Kidd
10’s
LeBron Durant Curry Harden Kawhi Westbrook Paul Davis Dirk Kobe

Giannis Luka Zion Young Siakam

 

[Icemann]

Big O is an arguable top 12 but not on the top PG’s? Also surely Cousy gotta be there somewhere. Also Moses or Karl Malone in that 12 spot?

So I was randomly going through my notes on my phone tonight and found this interesting one from when i was bored af near the start of COVID, which has a top 11 all time of every position, top 12 all time overall, top 10 by decade and top 5 players for the future so i thought i’d share.

Magic, Oscar, Steph, Stockton, Isiah, Cousy, CP3, Westbrook, Nash, Kidd, Frazier
Jordan, Kobe, West, Wade, Harden, Iverson, Drexler, Gervin, Miller, Allen, Jones
LeBron, Bird, KD, Baylor, Dr. J, Havlicek, Kawhi, Pippen, Barry, Dominique, Worthy
Duncan, Malone, Garnett, Barkley, Pettit, Dirk, McHale, Webber, Schayes, Hayes, Rodman
Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Hakeem, Shaq, Moses, Robinson, Ewing, Mikan, Walton, Reed

Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Kobe
Oscar

50’s
Mikan Schayes Cousy Pettit Arizin Johnston Macauley Sharman Russell Stokes
60’s
Russell Chamberlain Robertson Baylor West Pettit Jones Greer Bellamy Lucas
70’s
Kareem Erving Barry Maravich Havlicek Hayes Frazier Gilmore Gervin Walton
80’s
Magic Bird Malone Kareem Isiah Erving Dantley English Jordan Wilkins
90’s
Jordan Olajuwon Malone Pippen Stockton Robinson Ewing Barkley Drexler Shaq
00’s
Duncan Kobe LeBron Shaq Iverson Dirk Garnett Nash Wade Kidd
10’s
LeBron Durant Curry Harden Kawhi Westbrook Paul Davis Dirk Kobe

Giannis Luka Zion Young Siakam

Its hard for me to rank oscar/AI. I'd say they're a little more shooting guard than point guard. I just think of them as "combo guards" like harden in a way. If oscar was on my PG list he would be 2nd above stockton, and AI would probably be just barely ahead of Jason kidd. And yeah you right cousy defo should be on the list. Above GP probably. GP gotta be on the list, best defensive point guard of all time.

I was referencing Karl rather than moses. Could easily be moses tho, personally right after hakeem their are like 10 or 12 guys who could go their depending how you're are feeling.

Very surprised that you put pettit over mchale and especially dirk.

Edit: actually yeah pettit over mchale I can see