Metagame Shared Power

Almost all strong attacks used right now are contact moves. Fire is very rare currently as rain is everywhere, and can be countered by flash fire.
I made an edit, fwiw.
I don't particularly like the logic you're using, but I elaborated on that in #114.
 
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Please ban Fur Coat and Ice Scales. I don't care if it "might not be broken." It has forced the meta into semi-stall bs the only reasonable argument I've seen is that weather would be broken. This thought process makes no sense to me. This is a case of broken check broken. If weather becomes unmanageable after FurScales ban then we can just ban weather abilities. Stall has so many good options and completely invalidates most attackers and outside of this Stall vs. Stall is way too common as well sometimes it lasts forever. This meta is boring as hell as long as FurScales is around, please for the love of god ban FurScales. Stall will adapt it still has access to so many great abilities even w/o IceScales. This meta is fun assuming you don't run into IceScales which invalidates every style that isn't specifically tailored to it.
Can IceScales be beaten? Yes. Is its presence in Shared Power a healthy one? Absolutely not.
No strategy is unbeatable, this doesn't mean that it isn't broken and unhealthy. IceScales makes offense and balance basically unusable in conjunction w/ other annoying abilities. Diversity is completely killed when every team is running the same 3-4 mons banning FurScales would move Shared Power in a much better direction.
 
Please ban Fur Coat and Ice Scales. I don't care if it "might not be broken." It has forced the meta into semi-stall bs the only reasonable argument I've seen is that weather would be broken. This thought process makes no sense to me. This is a case of broken check broken. If weather becomes unmanageable after FurScales ban then we can just ban weather abilities. Stall has so many good options and completely invalidates most attackers and outside of this Stall vs. Stall is way too common as well sometimes it lasts forever. This meta is boring as hell as long as FurScales is around, please for the love of god ban FurScales. Stall will adapt it still has access to so many great abilities even w/o IceScales. This meta is fun assuming you don't run into IceScales which invalidates every style that isn't specifically tailored to it.
Can IceScales be beaten? Yes. Is its presence in Shared Power a healthy one? Absolutely not.
No strategy is unbeatable, this doesn't mean that it isn't broken and unhealthy. IceScales makes offense and balance basically unusable in conjunction w/ other annoying abilities. Diversity is completely killed when every team is running the same 3-4 mons banning FurScales would move Shared Power in a much better direction.
Except furscales keeps the entire meta in check, not just weather.
It's cool if you wanna skip all the points being made but don't say you don't get the thought process then.
Furscales prevents any offensive ability to stack up and overwhelm every single Pokemon. I don't know how much more obvious it has to be but there is nothing that naturally takes moves like strong jaw adap tough claws fish rend or crunch without getting 2hko'd.
Sound spam (Throat spray/flare boost pixilate punk rock boomburst) Steel spam (steely Steelworker Adap/Sand force tough claws Meteor Mash Lucario) Stored Power abuse, etc. etc. etc.
You do not live these without furscales and that goes for both offense and defense. By all means post me some proof that
the meta isnt completely killed by offense if you ban these abilities. I'm interested.
 
Except furscales keeps the entire meta in check, not just weather.
It's cool if you wanna skip all the points being made but don't say you don't get the thought process then.
Furscales prevents any offensive ability to stack up and overwhelm every single Pokemon. I don't know how much more obvious it has to be but there is nothing that naturally takes moves like strong jaw adap tough claws fish rend or crunch without getting 2hko'd.
Sound spam (Throat spray/flare boost pixilate punk rock boomburst) Steel spam (steely Steelworker Adap/Sand force tough claws Meteor Mash Lucario) Stored Power abuse, etc. etc. etc.
You do not live these without furscales and that goes for both offense and defense. By all means post me some proof that
the meta isnt completely killed by offense if you ban these abilities. I'm interested.
I'm not sure if you read my post at all. I mention that if offensive abilities prove to be broken in the future then they could be banned as well, banning FurScales would move Shared Power in a better direction and we'll cross your bridge when we get there. Please don't fill the thread with snarky one-liners anymore.
Edit: If you wish to discuss this further my Dicord is zioziotrip#4846
 
I'm not sure if you read my post at all. I mention that if offensive abilities prove to be broken in the future then they could be banned as well, banning FurScales would move Shared Power in a better direction and we'll cross your bridge when we get there. Please don't fill the thread with snarky one-liners anymore.
I see. Were you here last gen for Shared Power? You missed out on a huge argument that was brought up, because it was there last gen after we banned sharing of certain defensive abilities. Of course, I don't know if many people know, but near the end was the age of RPS battles. Basically 3 team archetypes that beat or were beat by the other 2. And it was an auto-lose if you were using the wrong team. Now, if you want to go ban offensive abilities, I suggest you look at last gen's sharing banlist. Now invalidate any 'mon that has one of those abilities. You're looking at a micrometa at that point.

Please, and for anyone else who wants to ban FurScales, look at last gen. The banlist, the RPS system near the end, and all the arguments that are similar here. We're here to try and restart it, and I love the meta. I don't want it to die again.
 
Check my edit.
And maybe use different moves then, lol.
Seriously, the logic is horrendous. Contact moves will hit into Fluffy. So use different ones. Use more special mons. Throwing a brick against a wall doesn't mean the wall is broken for not crumbling under a brick.
You're being rude for no reason, which gives a bad image of yourself. Remember that in the future.
Now onto the main point. The problem is the "other moves" are way weaker than the contact moves, meaning Fur Coat will be suficient to wall the mons that use them. Either you use the strongest move and run into Fluffy, either you use the non-contact move (and forget about fighting type attacks, knock off, bite moves, etc) and you still get walled because they're weaker.
 
There are people saying that FurScales is broken, and there are people saying that they're only broken when paired with Unaware. I don't recall anyone moving for Unaware to be banned, and I'm curious why.
There's been people crying out for unaware + simple ban (jeepeezles did a little bit higher up) and I fully support that. But it's neither or both.

You're being rude for no reason, which gives a bad image of yourself. Remember that in the future.
Now onto the main point. The problem is the "other moves" are way weaker than the contact moves, meaning Fur Coat will be suficient to wall the mons that use them. Either you use the strongest move and run into Fluffy, either you use the non-contact move (and forget about fighting type attacks, knock off, bite moves, etc) and you still get walled because they're weaker.
I feel you ignored the core point of the post. "Contact moves will hit into Fluffy. So use different ones. Use more special mons."
Your argumentation relied on saying that special mons are more dominant and thus Fluffy is an issue, but that's where the strawman lies. Fluffy isn't an issue exactly because it's just an answer to the meta's over-reliance on physical moves.
Why does sound spam walk through most defensive teams? Because it can break through doubled spd (if the team even runs it, because frosmoth is as you said less common than fluffy fur) and nobody brings proper special defensive cores.
What can you do to run more SPD oriented defenses? Drop Fluffy.
You cannot manage a team where you need 2 mons that are borderline useless in the meta + a flash fire mon in a meta where rain and sand are so dominant (because flash fire = fire type, no options there) that then also needs a mon to cover the special side in frosmoth and eventually has a whopping 2 slots of wiggle room.
Trust me. I've used plenty of stall; I've posted multiple of them, when it comes down to it you're sacrificing something to fit those defensive mons on your team, and those sacrifices are what pokes holes in your team if your opponent uses a real team and not a "hey look I can spam 6 mons with only physical moves and buttercake through most teams" team.

My apologies if I came across as rude, I have amended my previous post to alter the (unnecessarily provocative) tone.
 
There are people saying that FurScales is broken, and there are people saying that they're only broken when paired with Unaware. I don't recall anyone moving for Unaware to be banned, and I'm curious why.
It's kinda necessary to keep Simple in check this is also why someone suggested that if Unaware is banned Simple should go with it. Unaware would be a pretty huge hit for stall but moves such as Haze still exist so it's not like FurScales would suddenly become unusable. Think to how stall works in other tiers, in those only one mon has it and sometimes that one mon is that not suitable to check the setup even at neutral but regardless stall always finds a way. The most common method I see is chip damage and w/ Corrosion chip becomes easier to apply as Toxic can't be absorbed but there is other ways such as phasing or the aforementioned Haze. Stall will still work w/o Unaware and it's a possibility that FurScales would be fine w/o it but there is no way to know by theorymoning.
Edit: "Use more special mons" is the same argument as "Use Clef" both of which are ridiculous as it expects you to build all your teams following a strict ruleset due to the insane pressure of FurScales. I'll write a more in-depth post about this later when I have time.
 
It's kinda necessary to keep Simple in check this is also why someone suggested that if Unaware is banned Simple should go with it. Unaware would be a pretty huge hit for stall but moves such as Haze still exist so it's not like FurScales would suddenly become unusable. Think to how stall works in other tiers, in those only one mon has it and sometimes that one mon is that not suitable to check the setup even at neutral but regardless stall always finds a way. The most common method I see is chip damage and w/ Corrosion chip becomes easier to apply as Toxic can't be absorbed but there is other ways such as phasing or the aforementioned Haze. Stall will still work w/o Unaware and it's a possibility that FurScales would be fine w/o out but there is no way to no by theorymoning.
I agree with what you're saying:
- Hydration stall doesnt need Unaware (even if it helps) given that they naturally run Quag without Haze rn and can easily fit Haze on the team. (Water Absorb Quag is still Value)
- Sun Stall (dont even ask why that works)
- Hail Stall (I swear I don't make these up)
- Immunity spam
- Priority semi-stall (stall team that relies on Grimm's prankster to stall out and clean threats with fake out/sucker punch or other priority pixilate moves)
- Be creative

Stall doesn't need unaware and offense doesn't need simple. They are both bad for the meta and restrict teambuilding way too much. Removing both would also mean you can run more or more efficient sets to deal with furscale and furscale is no longer "untouchable" due to nat bulk being the only relevant matter.
 

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I see. Were you here last gen for Shared Power? You missed out on a huge argument that was brought up, because it was there last gen after we banned sharing of certain defensive abilities. Of course, I don't know if many people know, but near the end was the age of RPS battles. Basically 3 team archetypes that beat or were beat by the other 2. And it was an auto-lose if you were using the wrong team. Now, if you want to go ban offensive abilities, I suggest you look at last gen's sharing banlist. Now invalidate any 'mon that has one of those abilities. You're looking at a micrometa at that point.

Please, and for anyone else who wants to ban FurScales, look at last gen. The banlist, the RPS system near the end, and all the arguments that are similar here. We're here to try and restart it, and I love the meta. I don't want it to die again.
I understand the sentiment of avoiding bans, but the meta is pretty awful to play at the moment. I'd rather weed out the blatantly overpowered abilities and be left with a meta that isn't the Stall or HO mess that it is right now. Even if the meta gets significantly smaller (but seeing as they're only ability bans, there would still be plenty of mons left over).

Although this meta by concept seems to be either stall or HO due to the nature of stacking abilities, so if people are into the experience of 10-or-500 turn games more power to them
 
I haven't played the meta yet, so I don't anticipate that my input will be super useful, but I have been following the thread, and I've watched every replay that was posted, so hopefully this isn't too uneducated.
I was also curious about Unaware (assuming Simple is also banned). I think - emphatically, this is from my limited outside perspective - Unaware sounds like it would be more problematic than Fur Coat and Ice Scales, because it completely invalidates a huge number of moves and strategies all by itself.

Fur Coat and Ice Scales are just modifiers - modifiers that should be relatively easy to overcome when there are so many more damage-boosting Abilities to stack on the offensive side, especially if attackers are allowed to use boosting moves (a regular Swords Dance or Nasty Plot instantly counteracts a defense-boosting Ability on its own, and that's before any Abilities are used on the physical side). Many of the offensive Ability cores I've seen discussed already reach or exceed 2x in only two Abilities (notable examples including Hustle + Adaptability for the physical side or Steelworker + Steely Spirit for Steel-types), and then they have four more team members to stack any more they want (so these pairs can even be combined with each other for a 450% modifier, or they can use weather, Sheer Force or any of the various other damage-boosting Abilities), and all of this is without really making any sacrifices by including unviable Pokémon in the process. Getting rid of the only Abilities that can reliably reduce damage isn't just going to nerf stall - it's probably going to centralize the entire meta around hyper offense and nothing else, because there's no way to keep up with the ridiculous modifier stacking of offensive Abilities. I think that will diminish the creativity that's available to players even more than stall does right now.

On the other hand, I feel like Unaware is an inherently problematic Ability for eliminating such a major element of battling; it's obviously balanced in a standard tier, where it's just a single member that has it, but being able to make an entire team ignore stat modifiers (and at what cost? using Clefable, one of the best Pokémon in OU as is!) is a huge part of why stall is so overpowering in the first place. Haze is still a perfectly good way to get rid of boosts, of course, especially with Prankster - so it's not like banning Unaware will completely ruin stall and make it impossible to keep up. But in that case, just like using a boosting move takes a turn, so does negating it, and it's limited to fewer Pokémon, so it doesn't completely invalidate an entire class of moves in the same way.

I can see why people think Fur Coat + Fluffy stacking is problematic, though - I won't make any argument against removing one of the two so physical attackers don't have to go all the way to 4x just to break even, haha.
 
Noooo thanks.
Banning furscales just means every diversity in the meta dies and becomes "what HO RPS wins?" (will elaborate later. maybe.)
Yeah, I agree. I didn't mean to say it should be banned, just looked at AFTER both Unaware and Simple are banned. Really, Unaware is the enabler of stall teams. It removes the oldest and simplest way of breaking fat mons, which is set up moves. I do agree with you that HO would run rampant, I only meant to say if stall is STILL too centralizing then maybe the culprit is FurScales.

It's kinda necessary to keep Simple in check this is also why someone suggested that if Unaware is banned Simple should go with it. Unaware would be a pretty huge hit for stall but moves such as Haze still exist so it's not like FurScales would suddenly become unusable.
Unaware would be a huge hit for stall but it could also benefit from it's ban. Sets like Iron Defense Corviknight, Kommo-O, or Toxapex could become common and combined with Fur Coat would make them almost impossible to kill with physical moves. The same logic can be applied to moves like Cosmic Power or Amnesia. I see this becoming a popular set especially combined with Pressure, since then even Rest could be used to help stall out the opponent while not draining your own PP. Plus, combined with moves like Body Press, Stored Power, or even Power Trip you could even set up a sweep, potentially.

On top of stall potentially gaining many new sets for mons with the Unaware ban, many new sets will be available to non stall mons. Currently, no set up sweeper is really functional against stall, or any team with an Unaware mon. New abilities such as Contrary would gain viability. With the lack of Unaware Contrary may be broken and probably should be carefully watched after Unaware gets banned.
 
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I understand the sentiment of avoiding bans, but the meta is pretty awful to play at the moment. I'd rather weed out the blatantly overpowered abilities and be left with a meta that isn't the Stall or HO mess that it is right now. Even if the meta gets significantly smaller (but seeing as they're only ability bans, there would still be plenty of mons left over).

Although this meta by concept seems to be either stall or HO due to the nature of stacking abilities, so if people are into the experience of 10-or-500 turn games more power to them
Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. I also agree that the meta is kinda messy, but if bans are going to be put into place, a couple things have to be understood. One, I think that there is the possibility of needing a mass ban. Basically, remove a lot of the main abilities and combinations, like Adaptability and FurScales. For balance. Two, making the meta smaller will leave a lot of lower tiered 'mons, and I think that can scare off new players. My main goal this time around is not for true balance, but for survivability. So, if leaving a mess of Stall vs. HO teams means the meta continues to grow and attract, so be it.
 
plz don't just ban everything because then what is the point of having this meta?
When you keep around a few very clearly broken mons/strats that begins to become the only thing you see, especially on high ladder. Banning a few things actually ENABLES far more. Example, Unaware ban making every set up sweeper actually viable. I personally try to be as conservative as possible with bans, but when a meta is so clearly shaped by just a few mons/strats, something is wrong.
 
I absolutely despise quickbans in general, but the reason I'm advocating so strongly for them here is because shared power has a lot of fun potential that goes to waste now. How many times have you played a meta where you can use hail stall?? Its amazingly creative and we really have to push some bans to enable that creativity to blossom rather than being tied down by things like unaware.
 
:Dragapult:
Well now that Harvest is quick banned, SubStall teams are effectively useless now that their main source of healing is gone.
And with no SubStall, Infiltrator is a lot less useful (still useful against screens), which is why I used Dragpult over Zeraora.
Now there really isn't a reason to use Dragapult on E-terrain teams, as Zeraora is faster, has better moves, and can abuse the boost from Electric Terrain.
 
Quickbanning Simple. It forces you to run Unaware, and even then it can overpower you with Power Trip and/or Stored Power.

Will make a decision on other elements soon, but keep up the discussion in the mean time. At the moment, I echo the sentiments above that Fur Coat and Ice Scales are necessary to keep the metagame in balance.
 
I totally understand where you're coming from Shoopz Whisper, I just think either Unaware/Simple or FurScales should be banned just to give players more freedom to make more creative teams.

I couldn't agree more with you there Seraphus! I hate banning things too but I'd love to explore other abilities and combinations and the only way I see it happening is if one or the other is banned (Unaware/Simple or FurScales).

:)

Quickbanning Simple. It forces you to run Unaware, and even then it can overpower you with Power Trip and/or Stored Power.

Will make a decision on other elements soon, but keep up the discussion in the mean time. At the moment, I echo the sentiments above that Fur Coat and Ice Scales are necessary to keep the metagame in balance.
Amazing, thanks! I understand what you mean with FurScales, but I still think unaware needs banning too. Or at least banned from sharing it with other Pokémon at the least :)
 
Hello I am going to echo the sentiment that weather should be looked at. I believe the problem stems from the fact the mons at hand can set up their own weather and benefit from them, creating essentially eternal weather like gen 5. That is no issue, however the immediate speed boost and immunity are what make it broken in my opinion. This allows weather HO to have auto-win matchups versus other weatherless HO and become a 50/50 versus other weather. For me, there have been many weather vs weather battles that have come down to having focus sash for the extra switch in turn, it is ridiculous. I will work on getting you replays. Stall handles it nicely but requires either water absorb or a flash fire or both. Stall can also use it to bypass heal bell PP with hydration+dry skin making it very difficult for balance teams to chip away with toxic. That becomes very centralizing, to the point where if you do not have at least 2 mons dedicated only for weather control on any archetype team you are certain to lose. It is also centralizing as it is the best form of HO by far, leaving little options for other ones. You are 100% better off running weather abusers/controllers than not running them. This paired up with powerful abilities like tinted and adapt, in conjunction with powerful moves like bolt beak and fishous, means you can have a team of 6 grass types and still lose.

Edit: to be fully clear, I am advocating for the ban of Sand Rush, Chrollphyl, and Slush Rush. Also I missed an important point that weather HO completely invalidates balance since the typically 2 dedicated revenge mons on bulky balance cannot outspeed. When they die, the other 4 backbone members do not have enough slots to cover for weather and easily crumble. Of course cloud nine does the thing, but that's been reiterated enough. I also want to add that the immunity sand buff is an underrated plus, allowing you to run things like sash crawdaunt and both the dracos with no chip, while chipping away other potential sashes.

Tldr: weather is instant no backdraw speed boost and you are better off running it than not, making it uncompetitive
 
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Hello I am going to echo the sentiment that weather should be looked at. I believe the problem stems from the fact the mons at hand can set up their own weather and benefit from them, creating essentially eternal weather like gen 5. That is no issue, however the immediate speed boost and immunity are what make it broken in my opinion. This allows weather HO to have auto-win matchups versus other weatherless HO and become a 50/50 versus other weather. For me, there have been many weather vs weather battles that have come down to having focus sash for the extra switch in turn, it is ridiculous. I will work on getting you replays. Stall handles it nicely but requires either or both a flash fire mon. Stall can also use it to bypass heal bell PP with hydration+dry skin making it very difficult for balance teams to chip away with toxic. That becomes very centralizing, to the point where if you do not have at least 2 mons dedicated only for weather control on any archetype team you are certain to lose. It is also centralizing as it is the best form of HO by far, leaving little options for other ones. You are 100% better off running weather abusers/controllers than not running them. This paired up with powerful abilities like tinted and adapt, in conjunction with powerful moves like bolt beak and fishous, means you can have a team of 6 grass types and still lose.

Tldr: weather is instant no backdraw speed boost and you are better off running it than not, making it uncompetitive
I also want to add that Snow Cloak and Sand Veil, for what ever reason, are legal (when they shouldn’t be legal even in regular OU with how inherently Evasion and similar mechanics such as Flinching are uncompetitive). It’s even worse here since that evasion buff is essentially permanent against non-weather and non-cloud nine team.
On top of that, you might as well add Surge Surf, Unburden, and any other Speed enhancing ability as it is pretty much the same problem.
 
I also want to add that Snow Cloak and Sand Veil, for what ever reason, are legal (when they shouldn’t be legal even in regular OU with how inherently Evasion and similar mechanics such as Flinching are uncompetitive). It’s even worse here since that evasion buff is essentially permanent against non-weather and non-cloud nine team.
On top of that, you might as well add Surge Surf, Unburden, and any other Speed enhancing ability as it is pretty much the same problem.
Yes this but I am going to disagree with unburden since that requires the item disposal, and is not instant on switch in. I have no opinion on surge and will have to play with it more.
 
I think what everyone needs to remember is when discussing what needs to be banned, we cannot rely on slippery slope arguments. 'If we ban X, then Y will be too overpowered!' is not a valid argument; what we should ban is what is currently over-centralizing or broken. If that leads to something else being over-centralizing or broken, then we deal with it then and there, separately to other, or the prospect of other, bans. If we're keeping something purely because it keeps things in check, rather than because its a healthy element of the metagame, there's a problem.
 

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