Call of Winter
Banned deucer.
Shouldn't something be put in FAQ about how counteractive abilities work together? (aerilate + pixilate and the like)
fwiw, mold breaker is banned so water absorb counters, I guess?Please ban WB. There are probably better builds than this, but even this one seems broken.
Araquanid @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Liquidation
- Leech Life
- Toxic
- Sticky Web
Pelipper @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
- Hydro Pump
- Roost
- Defog
- U-turn
Kabutops @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
Yanmega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Toxic
- Bug Buzz
- U-turn
- Defog
Tapu Lele @ Psychium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Substitute
Basculin @ Choice Band
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Superpower
- Toxic
WB is probably the most insane thing allowed right now, made even more insane since it has an amazing synergy with SS and drizzle, and Basculin can abuse it alongside moldbreaker (banned abilities can be used, they just aren't passed to other mons).
It's banned from sharing. You can still abuse Mold Breaker on mons that get it naturally like Mega Gyarados and Basculin.fwiw, mold breaker is banned so water absorb counters, I guess?
The team's still runs issues with other weather / weather neutralisation and water absorb / storm drain still blocks 5/6 of the team.It's banned from sharing. You can still abuse Mold Breaker on mons that get it naturally like Mega Gyarados and Basculin.
Absolutely. My point with that team wasn't that the team itself is broken (it needs work), but that water bubble is. It's not realistic to expect every team to run a water immunity ability, and a lot of teams that do would still get slaughtered by Mega Gyarados.The team's still runs issues with other weather / weather neutralisation and water absorb / storm drain still blocks 5/6 of the team.
I honestly don't agree with the fluffy/coat ban. With offenses power in this meta, even something like Weavile can potentially be brought up to do 35-42% to Bewear with Bite AND a 60% chance to flinch, and that's resisted. The team I have in mind is running Strong Jaw/Tech/Serene Grace/Adaptability and Tough Claws, but there are other options that make offense just as strong. What about Clefable? Clefable takes 59-70% from Tough Claws Ice Punch and up to 30% from Bite, meaning it can still be 2HKO'd. Heatran, Chansey, Toxapex and M-Sab are all 2HKO'd depending on EV distribution. If you opted to run Sheer Force over Serene Grace, this team wouldn't stand a chance, and Weavile itself doesn't even lend the team a useful offensive ability. Yeah you can switch around, but all Weavile needs to crush this team is Poison Jab, Ice Punch, Low Kick and Bite and some decent prediction.This meta looks fun! But isn't the team below a little unbeatable?
Like, how do you beat Fluffy + Unaware + Regen? It even has Flash Fire so the opponent can't take advantage of Fluffy! You'd be inclined to use a special attacker to break through this, right? But Is there any Special Attacker Chansey doesn't wall without set up?
I think something has to be done to address this kind of team, cuz' it genuinely seems broken, before you say anything about Corrosion, keep in mind Chansey has Natural Cure, but even then, Poison Heal would also be a great option here. Mold Breaker is restricted, so it's impossible to ignore Unaware and Magic Bounce.
I know that this is all theorymonning, but I can't think of any broken strategy that would let me beat this type of team...
The most absurd WB abuser I've been able to think of has been Greninja (Protean) + Crawdaunt (Adaptability) + Scizor (Technician) + Blastoise-mega (Mega Launcher) + Pelipper (Drizzle) + Araquanid (Water Bubble)Please ban WB. There are probably better builds than this, but even this one seems broken.
Araquanid @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Liquidation
- Leech Life
- Toxic
- Sticky Web
Pelipper @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
- Hydro Pump
- Roost
- Defog
- U-turn
Kabutops @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
Yanmega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Toxic
- Bug Buzz
- U-turn
- Defog
Tapu Lele @ Psychium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Substitute
Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
WB is probably the most insane thing allowed right now, made even more insane since it has an amazing synergy with SS and drizzle, and Basculin can abuse it alongside moldbreaker (banned abilities can be used, they just aren't passed to other mons).
Edit: Changed Basculin to Mega Gyarados because I'm dumb and I forgot it existed.
I'd recommend running either Mega Gyarados over Mega Blastoise, or Basculin over Crawdaunt to get past water absorb.Well, in meta's like Frantic Fusions where pokemon can have access to both abilities, which ability it chooses is decided at random each turn, so it's kind of a bad strategy. Not sure if that'll be the case here but it's either that or what Haakunite said.
The most absurd WB abuser I've been able to think of has been Greninja (Protean) + Crawdaunt (Adaptability) + Scizor (Technician) + Blastoise-mega (Mega Launcher) + Pelipper (Drizzle) + Araquanid (Water Bubble)
Greninja's Water Shuriken receives a decent buff from WB, Tech and Drizzle, but the real star of the show is Water Pulse, which reaches a disgusting 840 BP when everything is taken into account. (More than an adaptability + aerilate explosion by a whopping 240 BP)
Sure, it's bunked up by Water Absorbers, but not much is gonna save you otherwise since this is capable of OHKO'ing even max HP+SpDef variants of both Eviolite Chansey as well as Toxapex. Even Assault Vest Toxapex is OHKO'd so you don't even need Tinted Lens to be honest.
The worst part is that Blastoise actually has higher damage output than Greninja and it's lower speed is somewhat mitigated by sticky webs. Greninja is necessary against offense teams though thanks to Shuriken.
Dude, you can run Blacephalon over Celesteela to get that nice MG Mind BlownBuilt a team around this metagame because it's just that interesting, amazing and I love the idea of it.
https://pokepast.es/72e1569b51af049c
Conkeldurr over Ursaring would probably be a better fit, so you all can make that change. (Thanks tbk for suggesting that)
The idea of the team is to abuse the hell out of Tinted Lens being legal. Mega Pinsir and Dragonite are your two setup sweepers, with Dragonite having Guts boosted Facade. Since both have Magic Guard, you can switch in on Stealth Rock as many times as you'd like. Magic Guard also makes it so even after being burned, Dragonite can preserve Multiscale. Tinted Lens Guts Aerilate Facade seems crazy powerful in this meta - Seriously, what switches in? Run Superpower for coverage against Stakataka, but otherwise, I really don't know what walls. It also has Extreme Speed so it can't be revenged easily by priority. Tbh Dragonite seems crazy powerful in this meta, not only by itself but also the fact it donates Multiscale. Tbh Dragonite stall could also be a thing and I think that's the only way stall could have any semblance of viability, everything is just too powerful in this meta so you absolutely need Multiscale softening up your blows.
Just posted here so I had the thread watched while also contributing something !_! Killer OM idea guys, I really hope this becomes successful
No Guard + Hustle's main problem is that the donors of either aren't fantastic or the best No Guard donor takes up a mega slot. While hustle has better alternative's like Tough Claws or Adaptability which make up for the lower raw power by not requiring No Guard to make up for their flaws. Meaning teams that include them can afford to run another damage boosting ability instead. No Guard itself has plenty of uses, but I think it's better used on stuff like Crobat which now gets the fastest hypnosis available with 100% accuracy, rather than trying to make hustle workable.All I can think about is all the things that will be terrifying, and things that don't make sense. Let me list a couple things.
No Guard + Hustle will be a nightmare, especially with sleep moves. Also, Dynamic Punch.
Intimidate + Regenerator=monster stall.
Why is Moldy Banned when Kyube, which is objectively more terrifying, is allowed?
In the same vein, Triage is going to make stall even more annoying; Think you'll RKill that mon at long last? Nope, fuck you, priority recover.
Poison Heal + Guts + Quick Feet + Toxic Boost = Monster team that never dies.
Comatose + Prankster. 'nuff said.
Download is essentially needed for HO teams, giving the team a free boost every time it swaps in.
Contrary. Why.
Tinted Lens will break the meta, mark my words. It says fuck you to the idea of walls.
Oh, and Illusion makes every other mon you switch in look like the last mon in your party.
Simple is like Contrary: WHY?
Low ladder will be filled with Sniper + Super Luck, as well as Stench + Serene Grace + Skill Link. Ugh...
I'm going to stop listing, cause I want to go back to teambuilding. This meta is going to be PiC in OP stuff, on crack, though.
Lol with prankster you could even get +1 sleep talks for Roaring. Komala should definitely be forbidden ASAP as was the case with STABmons. Although, with Magic Guard being not uncommon, there are blanket answers to the problem. Dark types can also stay in should the Roar choose to be prank-boosted. Shouldn't have to even be a problem in the first place, though.comatalk sounds especially scary here. something like
komala to pass coma
haxorus with moldy scarf talk roar/dtail for bouncers
another scarf sleep talker
hazards
and queenly magesty for prankster taunters
Thats why fluffy should be unbanned tbh, we have stuff that can reach like 400 bp easily WHILE ALSO having sand rush/swift swim or w/e but nothing to switch into it or outspeed. Its fair enough considering it only works on contact movesHey uh... so...
Landorus-therian + Mega-pinsir (Aerilate) + Gumshoos (Stakeout) + Starmie (Analytic) + PorygonZ (Adaptability) + Venomoth (Tinted Lens)
Landorus-therian's Explosion reaches an insane 1560 BP on anything it catches on the switch. A Choice Band set is capable of even OHKO'ing max HP/max Def FUR COAT Stakataka with this. It's situational and probably awful in practice but just... an example of what you can accomplish in this meta offensively.
With Poison Heal + Magic Guard, Poison Heal will take precedence and heal regardless of Magic Guard.How does Magic Guard interact with Poison Heal?
How does Magic Guard interact with Solar Power?
How do weather abilities interact with each other? Same for surge abilities.
I checked both in Partners in Crime, Poison Heal still heals regardless of whether or not the mon also has Magic Guard, I assume the same will be true here. Solar Power still provides the buff as well, without taking any damage.How does Magic Guard interact with Poison Heal?
How does Magic Guard interact with Solar Power?
How do weather abilities interact with each other? Same for surge abilities.
Also thats a good argument tbh magic guard is way versatile, while magic bounce doesnt sound nearly as good as magic guard doesI don't think you can really assertively state that Dragonite should be looked at and then say that stall is unviable in the same breath. If Multiscale isn't enough to make stall viable, then it's certainly not THAT big of a help to frailer offensive teams. (The mons you listed in the calcs aren't really bulky in the slightest aside from Clefable, who's statistical bulk is still surpassed by a lot of other mons, and any offensive team that doesn't carry priority or dazzling/queenly majesty is making a huge mistake anyway)
It's a great ability and I think Dragonite could turn out to be a top tier mon here, at the very least it's an incredibly versatile one that fits onto a lot of playstyles, but broken? Not really.
You're correct in saying that offense is stupidly powerful though. I think if stall finds a way here, it'll be in the form of bulky offense teams that just happen to be able to stall thanks to their fantastic abilities (poison heal + guts + triage + multiscale is pretty dangerous)
Pure stall doesn't really have anything going for it with Magic Guard being as prevalent as it is, and even if that goes, Poison Heal hurts it's viability substantially anyway.
Also, take all calc's with a grain of salt. There are so many potential team compositions in this meta that anything we can come up with right now is hypothetical. We're going to have to wait until we can start playtesting and figuring out what the common sets/mons are if we want to be able to accurately gauge what abilities are and aren't broken in practice, and in what situations. And if Dragonite becomes a problem later on; we'll have to talk about what Haakunite said earlier in the OM workshop. Is Dragonite really the problem in the scenarios you suggested, or is it the fact that it gets access to Aerilate Facade + Guts? A strategy that's only as viable as it is due to Magic Guard saving MPinsir from it's rocks weakness and allowing Dragonite to spam Facade without receiving chip damage that would otherwise break it's multiscale. In this specific case, I would argue that Magic Guard is the problem more than any other part of the equation.
On that note, is Magic Bounce even worth banning when Magic Guard is allowed? The prevalence of the latter means that the formers hazard-rejecting powers are near meaningless. Status isn't very effective and even then, Magic Guard actually prevents damage from those statuses, whereas Magic Bounce mons are still capable of taking damage, they just can't be statused through the use of non-offensive moves. The only thing bounce does that MGuard doesn't is prevent stat dropping moves (which no-one uses), and stop the opponent from using Sticky Webs, which isn't really beneficial v stall anyway. MBounce mons aren't even noticeably better on offensive teams, since MGuard provides offensive mons with a free LO boost.