SP Shared Power - Survey at post 418

KaenSoul

Shared:Power Little Knight
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Community Leader
Format has been playable for a bit now, and we will be voting on some of the new stuff next week for a possible quickban.
:kyurem-black: :kyurem-White: :zekrom: :reshiram: :necrozma-dawn-wings: :lunala:
All of these can ignore abilities with either abilities or moves, limiting their defensive counterplay to maybe nothing for most of these, as they get to stack offensive abilities without worries of what defensive abilities the opponent may have, all while having crazy high BST unlike the Mold Breaker mons we had before. If anyone believes anything else needs to be looked at before the suspect next month, they are welcome to speak.
Their speed is lackluster so they often fail to do much against offensive teams without using defensive abilities themselves, but both Necrozma-DW and Lunala have strong defensive abilities so they fit well there, and the dragons can use Dragon's Maw Scale Shot to make up for their speed.
 

Trick Room
:Houndstone::Calyrex-Ice::Rampardos::Ting-Lu::Heatran::Porygon2:
I know I posted about this earlier, but :Calyrex-Ice: is quite strong under Trick Room. Running it with defensive abilities helps to allow you to set-up trick room more often. You will want to use trick room at the right times and KO mons at the right times to keep Trick Room up as much as you can. You also have to be smart about when you use Gravity vs Levitate teams.

:Ting-Lu: surprised me with how hard it hits.
I've added some notes in the paste. :Scizor: is a threat, so tera steel is given to two mons, you also have :Heatran: for that, as well as providing protection against Wisp Burns and to be immune to the x2 Fluffy weakness to fire.

Having two 165 base attack mons on the same team is fun. Get a Download boost and they are at 706.5 Attack.
---------------------------------------------------
:Iron Crown: seems to be a real threat with all the boosts you can give to tachyon cutter.
 
Sorry for the double post, but what are your thoughts on the health of the meta?
:Iron Crown: and :Calyrex-Ice: show up a lot, there's a top player running around with an evil :Deoxys-Defense: team. I've seen some ubers like :Ho-oh:
:Kyurem-Black:, :Zekrom:, :Groudon: + :Reshiram:. Most of the Ubers don't seem problematic in my eyes.

I think :Zamazenta: is one of the top picks still, which is cool. I think set-up is still the strongest strategy, not sure if that is a bad thing or not. I've experimented with Tail Wind, Gravity, and Trick Room, they were kinda mediocre unfortunately. My double moth team I posted is pretty strong, you can probably replace :Volcarona: with something else, but then you lose meme burns and a sound move to hit past subs.

Defiant is rare, so I've experimented a bit with Intmidate, but not enough I think.
 
Calyrex-Ice sucks.
It loses to (in no particular order) Scizor, Groudon, Reshiram, Spectrier, Chi-Yu, Kleavor, Samurott-Hisui, Ceruledge, Crawdaunt, Iron Crown, Gouging Fire, Ogerpon-Cornerstone, and Basculegion.
Its only working strategies are with Psychic Terrain Trick Room or as a stallbreaker.
 
Also, I know this is late, but I do not agree with the reasoning to unban Arceus-Dragon. The only used Ice types are Iron Bundle and Calyrex-Ice, which both suck, the only viable Dragon type outspeeding it is Dragapult, and the only Fairy type it faces is Iron Valiant.
 

KaenSoul

Shared:Power Little Knight
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Community Leader
Kyurem-Black, Kyurem-White, Necrozma-Dawn-Wings, Reshiram, Zekrom and Lunala are now banned from Shared Power! (Shadow Shield, Teravolt and Truboblaze will no longer be restricted as all the users are banned)

UsernameKyurem-BlackKyurem-WhiteNecrozma-DWReshiramZekromLunala
KaenSoulBanBanBanBanBanBan
ponchBanAbstainBanAbstainBanAbstain
GimlafBanBanBanBanBanBan

As previously stated, being able to bypass defensive abilities prevented most forms of defensive counterplay against them, not much can be said about any of them in a more specific way as their sky-high stats paired with those anti-ability moves/abilities were having a negative impact in the balance of the tier forcing to run multiple Ability Shield to keep up with them.

In a related thought, restrictions may have a big impact on how we tier cover legendary level Pokémon compared to how we did before, as time goes we may have to move away from most of the high bst monsters like we have been doing lately, we do need to set the powerlevel of the tier somewhere and with upcoming Psychic Surge suspect we may define it soon. Expect the thread up soon.


Kris yo.
 
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I'm surprised that :Reshiram: and :Zekrom: were banned, I've had some trouble with making teams around them.

I started off making a heal berries team with Tangled Feet for the memes, it was bad, but I noticed something.

I used these guys and realized that they were how bulky these birds are. So I made a team using them with 4 standard mons. I partially am stealing some ideas from Arkies who had a very interesting stall team.
G/S Stall
:Ho-Oh::Lugia::Wo-Chien::Heatran::Houndstone::Frosmoth:
https://pokepast.es/c68787049a954c0f

I think I finally found a fun Ubers Gimmick, which I've been experimenting for a while.and this one is one that's actually decent. Ho-Oh takes special hits, Lugia takes Physical. Ho-Oh has two options for physical moves that dodge fluffy, Sacred Fire and Earthquake. They can deal decent damage to teams unprepared for them, especially teams with Fluffy without an immunity to Fire type moves. Ho-Oh also helps with Tachyon Cutter. Pressure can be surprisingly helpful at times. Lugia doesn't get Stored Power unfortunately, but it has Psychic Noise which helps a lot against other healers and Substitute users. It also has Aeroblast as a powerful stab option.

Feel free to update the tera types, but Ho-Oh and Lugia are almost always the mons you tera. Ground for Ho-Oh, and Water for Lugia. With Zekrom gone, I'm unsure if Ground is still the best option. Water helps against the steel and ice types you will run into.

Proof of Top 50
1704212170812.png
 
Hi I am new to Pokémon showdown and had a question. I was playing shared power with a flower veil team when a Pokémon poisoned one of my mon using poison touch. Is this a glitch or does ability's go past it or is it something else?
 
Hi I am new to Pokémon showdown and had a question. I was playing shared power with a flower veil team when a Pokémon poisoned one of my mon using poison touch. Is this a glitch or does ability's go past it or is it something else?
Was your Pokemon a grass type and did your opponent's Pokemon have Mold Breaker, Teravolt, or Turboblaze?
 

I used these guys and realized that they were how bulky these birds are. So I made a team using them with 4 standard mons. I partially am stealing some ideas from Arkies who had a very interesting stall team.
G/S Stall
:Ho-Oh::Lugia::Wo-Chien::Heatran::Houndstone::Frosmoth:
https://pokepast.es/c68787049a954c0f

I think I finally found a fun Ubers Gimmick, which I've been experimenting for a while.and this one is one that's actually decent. Ho-Oh takes special hits, Lugia takes Physical. Ho-Oh has two options for physical moves that dodge fluffy, Sacred Fire and Earthquake. They can deal decent damage to teams unprepared for them, especially teams with Fluffy without an immunity to Fire type moves. Ho-Oh also helps with Tachyon Cutter. Pressure can be surprisingly helpful at times. Lugia doesn't get Stored Power unfortunately, but it has Psychic Noise which helps a lot against other healers and Substitute users. It also has Aeroblast as a powerful stab option.

Feel free to update the tera types, but Ho-Oh and Lugia are almost always the mons you tera. Ground for Ho-Oh, and Water for Lugia. With Zekrom gone, I'm unsure if Ground is still the best option. Water helps against the steel and ice types you will run into.

Proof of Top 50
View attachment 587127
Honestly, Lugia might be the Pokemon that beats up Zamazenta big-time. I've been retesting with base Zamazenta Sitrus Berry (which has been relatively alright), and it suffers much more from special attacking teams and needs Tera Steel in order to counter Grassy Surge.
 

KaenSoul

Shared:Power Little Knight
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Community Leader
Survey is over, you can check all the answers here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...JgRmMcL66Bs9fLcUSqByxZ5kmv-X5dA/viewanalytics

But about the main two questions :frosmoth: :houndstone:
Gráfico de respuestas de formularios. Título de la pregunta: Do you think Stall is overpowered/centralizing?. Número de respuestas: 17 respuestas.

Gráfico de respuestas de formularios. Título de la pregunta: Would you prefer action on Ice Scales or Fluffy?. Número de respuestas: 17 respuestas.
While there weren't as many answers as I hoped, we still got a fair amount, I don't think we need to do a suspect test this time, after seeing this result the council has decided to restrict Ice Scales!

This is a big change for the tier, as it drastically moves the power balance and because of that we had a vote on some of the top special attackers in the tier as their main counterplay was just removed, I expect this to not be the last change caused because of this restriction.

KaenSoulPonchlakeGimlafClefableResult
Chi-YuBanBanBanBanBanned
MewtwoBanDo Not BanAbstainDo Not BanFree
SpectrierBanBanBanDo Not BanBanned
RegielekiBanBanDo Not BanBanBanned
Deoxys-SpeedDo Not BanDo Not BanDo Not BanDo Not BanFree
KyogreBanDo Not BanAbstainDo Not BanFree
Landorus-IDo Not BanBanBanBanBanned

:sv/frosmoth: :sv/chi-yu: :sv/spectrier: :sv/regieleki: :sv/landorus:
So as a result of Ice Scales being restricted, Chi-Yu, Spectrier, Regieleki and Landorus-I are now banned!
 

Bobsican

Powerscaler at heart
is a Top Tiering Contributor
May as well do a comment on the potential state of the meta out of these changes.

Now that Ice Scales, and by extension :frosmoth:, are rendered unviable, I can see the following becoming a concern:

:sv/Iron Crown:
This mon was complained on in the survey, and with a quite strong signature that can benefit from Steely Spirit, Technician, Sharpness and other general stuff like Adaptability, it can be surprisingly difficult to wall, and with Ice Scales gone chances are it can now 2HKO some unexpected mons with Specs. Being a mon that also benefits from Psychic Surge out of lowering concerns on priority and boosting its other STAB is also worth mentioning.

:sv/Maushold::sv/Scizor::sv/Breloom:
Technician is an ability that was complained on multiple times too, and TBH I can see why, with stuff like the before-mentioned :Iron Crown:, and most multihit moves innately ignoring Fluffy, it's a very splashable ability that most mons can abuse, plus thanks to :Loaded Dice: existing, having Skill Link on a team slot isn't particularly a need either.

:sv/Feraligatr::sv/Conkeldurr:
Sheer Force is a really strong ability as moves affected by it lose recoil from :Life Orb:, and while the strongest alternative in :landorus: is now gone, I can totally see such ability still becoming a potent threat, especially given the precedents of stuff that'd otherwise be a shitmon like :frosmoth: shining out of the ability granted to the team being really good.

:sv/volcarona::sv/Iron Moth::sv/Heatran::sv/Skeledirge:

Now that Ice Scales isn't around to mitigate the Fire weakness granted to a team by Fluffy, specially offensive Fire-types can more easily blow holes, however, Flash Fire is still a thing, and so whether this becomes a trend once again to run alongside Fluffy, or if it remains as a opportunity cost over something else, will be something only time will tell.

Overall, one thing for sure is that offense got better and surely there's some stuff that's a bit too good with the recent changes, I sure can't wait to see how the meta develops.
 

Bobsican

Powerscaler at heart
is a Top Tiering Contributor
Okay, went back to peak ladder once more with the new meta.

1706687445969.png


Before commenting on the meta, I'd like to propose a new sample team:
:sv/houndstone::sv/chansey::sv/wo-chien::sv/clodsire::sv/heatran::sv/giratina-origin:

As linked above, this team changes about half of the team members of the original version that had :dondozo:/:quagsire:, :frosmoth: and :corviknight:, this may seem drastic, but hear me out.

:Houndstone: provides Fluffy, which is crucial to cover most physical attackers on the meta, as we all know the trend is to stack offensive multipliers and reach surprisingly high results, Trick is a good tool to cripple some potentially threatening sweepers like :calyrex-ice: and :lilligant-hisui:, Poltergeist also hits quite well considering that it ignores Fluffy, allowing it to be a decent lead and late-game cleaner, and Body Press acts as decent coverage to hit Normal-types like :Maushold:.

:chansey: provides Stealth Rock, Natural Cure to ensure everyone remains healthy (notably giving :heatran: and :giratina-origin: less passivity with Rest), and is a blanket check to special attackers, being able to wear them down with Seismic Toss, or Shadow Ball when dealing with Ghost-types.

:wo-chien:'s ability combined with Fluffy nets a x2.5 multiplier to physical bulk, allowing for stuff like this, for instance:

1706691565533.png


Leech Seed is a good tool to wear down opponents while also potentially healing allies, Foul Play punishes some setup sweepers that try to break past it, most notably :calyrex-ice: and :Dragonite:, and it can Terastallize to cover other things too, with Knock Off shutting down :leftovers: and :heavy-duty boots:, easing the act of making progress by wearing down the other team. Protect without Pressure may seem unecessary, but it increases the recovery gained between Leech Seed and Leftovers, does chip to teams reliant on Guts or Toxic Boost, and eases scouting on opponents.

Levitate from :Giratina-Origin: means that the team only cares about Stealth Rock, and with no mons particularly weak to it, combined with the capability to encourage opponents to remove them by drowning them in hazards between :clodsire: and :chansey:, while also spinblocking with the dual Ghost-types (or :heatran: for the rare :Glimmora:), means that lacking hazard removal isn't as bad as one would think, abusing status with Hex also minimizes its passivity, especially now that :Frosmoth: has been rendered irrelevant, being able to comfortably come into weak Knock Offs (its item can't be removed and thus the move doesn't get boosted either) is also a nice bonus to support the team.

:heatran: with Levitate walls a good chunk of the meta, both on the physical and special spectrums, and being able to make progress in most match-ups (it does little in match-ups involving other :heatran: and Levitate mons) renders it a quite valuable option, especially to cover the weakness to Fire otherwise granted by :houndstone:'s Fluffy.

Did you know that netically :clodsire: is almost as physically bulky as :quagsire:? Clodsire holds an anti-meta typing, handling :iron valiant:, :Annihilape: (not triggering Rage Fist is easy as it just isn't breaking past it alongside :Giratina-origin:, requiring a ton of predictions to avoid being status'd), :lilligant-hisui: and mons that ran random Grass coverage like :maushold:, this combined with synergy with Flash Fire in total rendering it practically immune to burns, paralysis and poisoning, and Levitate ensuring the only hazard damage is minimal to the point it's healed by :leftovers: in the same turn, renders :clodsire: a quite strong upgrade overall from :quagsire: with a ton of longevity.

"But Bob! What about Mold Breaker?"

Well, :ogerpon-hearthflame: and :reshiram: are straight up banned, lol, and the only relevant Mold Breaker mon in this context is :Excadrill:, which struggles with :Wo-Chien: anyways.

"What about :iron crown:?"

That mon indeed hits ridiculously hard, I did once face a team like I described in a previous post here, namely involving donors of Sharpness, Technician, Steely Spirit and Adaptability, which in total its Tachyon Cutter gets a x6.75 multiplier, which puts pre-nerf STAB Self-Destruct to shame, and that's not even counting items or setup, :Heatran: barely lives this stuff and so is required to be kept healthy in this kind of match-ups, and ideally hope they don't have Focus Blast, or hope that it misses.

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Iron Crown Tachyon Cutter (169BP, 2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 250-296 (64.7 - 76.6%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The :assault vest: variants of :Heatran: do ensure a 3HKO from this move, and you can go out of your way for Bulletproof support to make it a sturdy answer (by becoming immune to Focus Blast), but at that point you'd be considerably compromising the structure of a team just for one mon, only time will tell if :iron crown: is fine to stay on the meta or not.

Okay, speaking of the meta, it seems that ladder hasn't changed much, although a rise on team structures that spam type immunity abilities like Water Absorb, Flash Fire, Levitate and so on has been happening, the users also seem to have been gaining some experience on using more optimal ability stacking, although as a result of the big stall wars, it's also easy to notice that ladder activity has decreased a bit now that little Timmies can't just watch their mons 2HKO everything for the most part.

While we're at it, I'd also like to talk about a particular thing that has also been complained on in the recent survey that I forgot to comment on.

:sv/hydrapple::sv/groudon::sv/trevenant::sv/maushold:

Harvest teams have been a potent alternative to annoy passive team structures for a good while, and the ability (heh) to have pseudo-Regenerator between Cheek Pouch, Harvest, Drought and any berry of choice is rendered almost fool-proof with Sticky Hold ensuring that this kind of stalling can go on forever, however, as such team structures rely on multiple species with lacking stats in general, they easily struggle against offensive teams, but overall one could argue that they're uncompetitive as they're heavily match-up fishy.
 

KaenSoul

Shared:Power Little Knight
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Community Leader
We are working on a VR, this is what I have so far, everyone can fill free to comment on it with their findings of the new format so we can make it more accurate:


Viability Ranking:

S

:indeedee: Indeedee-Male
S-
:calyrex-ice: Calyrex-Ice
:scizor: Scizor

A+
:Crawdaunt: Crawdaunt
:deoxys-speed: Deoxys-Speed
:groudon: Groudon
:iron crown: Iron Crown
:kyogre: Kyogre
:mewtwo: Mewtwo
:palafin-hero: Palafin
:pincurchin: Pincurchin
:porygon-z: Porygon-Z
:rillaboom: Rillaboom
:ting-lu: Ting-Lu
:wo-chien: Wo-Chien
:zamazenta: Zamazenta
A
:Basculegion-f: Basculegion-Female
:Basculegion: Basculegion-Male
:breloom: Breloom
:ceruledge: Ceruledge
:conkeldurr: Conkeldurr
:Dragapult: Dragapult
:Houndstone: Houndstone
:klawf: Klawf
:lilligant-hisui: Lilligant-Hisui
:maushold: Maushold
:ogerpon-wellspring: Ogerpon-Wellspring
:perrserker: Perrserker
:walking wake: Walking Wake
A-
:chansey: Chansey
:Cinderace: Cinderace
:corviknight: Corviknight
:decidueye: Decidueye
:giratina-origin: Giratina-Origin
:flamigo: Flamigo
:golurk: Golurk
:heatran: Heatran
:iron bundle: Iron Bundle
:Iron valiant: Iron Valiant
:lycanroc-dusk: Lycanroc-Dusk
:lycanroc-midnight: Lycanroc-Midnight
:manaphy: Manaphy
:palkia-origin: Palkia-Origin
:urshifu-rapid-strike: Urshifu-Rapid-Strike

B+
:annihilape: Annihilape
:armarouge: Armarouge
:baxcalibur: Baxcalibur
:blissey: Blissey
:bombirdier: Bombirdier
:clodsire: Clodsire
:Cloyster: Cloyster
:dialga: Dialga
:dialga-origin: Dialga-Origin
:drifblim: Drifblim
:espathra: Espathra
:giratina: Giratina
:iron boulder: Iron Boulder
:porygon2: Porygon2
:quaquaval: Quaquaval
:quagsire: Quagsire
:regidrago: Regidrago
:solgaleo: Solgaleo
:Trevenant: Trevenant
:tsareena: Tsareena
:urshifu: Urshifu-Single-Strike
B
:braviary-hisui: Braviary-Hisui
:copperajah: Copperajah
:cresselia: Cresselia
:cyclizar: Cyclizar
:deoxys-defense: Deoxys-Defense
:dragalge: Dragalge
:excadrill: Excadrill
:farigiraf: Farigiraf
:galvantula: Galvantula
:goodra-hisui: Goodra-Hisui
:meowscarada: Meowscarada
:necrozma: Necrozma
:orthworm: Orthworm
:smeargle: Smeargle
:sylveon: Sylveon
:toxicroak: Toxicroak
:tyranitar: Tyranitar
:zangoose: Zangoose
B-
:appletun: Appletun
:basculin: Basculin
:cetitan: Cetitan
:cinccino: Cinccino
:dachsbun: Dachsbun
:decidueye-hisui: Decidueye-Hisui
:glimmora: Glimmora
:golem-alola: Golem-Alola
:gouging fire: Gouging Fire
:greedent: Greedent
:honchkrow: Honchkrow
:inteleon: Inteleon
:iron hands: Iron Hands
:iron Moth: Iron Moth
:kilowattrel: Kilowattrel
:kleavor: Kleavor
:ogerpon: Ogerpon-Teal-Mask
:palkia: Palkia
:pawmot: Pawmot
:polteageist: Polteageist
:lapras: Lapras
:lucario: Lucario
:luxray: Luxray
:lycanroc: Lycanroc-Midday
:muk: Muk
:muk-alola: Muk-Alola
:ninetales: Ninetales
:ninetales-alola: Ninetales-Alola
:raging bolt: Raging Bolt
:raichu-alola: Raichu-Alola
:roaring moon: Roaring Moon
:salazzle: Salazzle
:skeledirge: Skeledirge
:sneasler: Sneasler
:tauros-paldea-aqua: Tauros-Paldea-Aqua
:tauros-paldea-blaze: Tauros-Paldea-Blaze
:toxapex: Toxapex
:toxtricity: Toxtricity
:volcanion: Volcanion
:weavile: Weavile

C+
:alcremie: Alcremie
:arboliva: Arboliva
:azumarill: Azumarill
:clawitzer: Clawitzer
:comfey: Comfey
:gallade: Gallade
:garchomp: Garchomp
:gliscor: Gliscor
:golduck: Golduck
:haxorus: Haxorus
:hippowdon: Hippowdon
:hydrapple: Hydrapple
:infernape: Infernape
:milotic: Milotic
:ogerpon-cornerstone: Ogerpon-Cornerstone
:okidogi: Okidogi
:rhyperior: Rhyperior
:salamence: Salamence
:shiftry: Shiftry
:tauros: Tauros
:tinkaton: Tinkaton
:vivillon: Vivillon
:volcarona: Volcarona
:zapdos-galar: Zapdos-Galar
C
:altaria: Altaria
:archaludon: Archaludon
:arceus-dragon: Arceus-Dragon
:arceus-fire: Arceus-Fire
:bruxish: Bruxish
:charizard: Charizard
:chesnaught: Chesnaught
:darkrai: Darkrai
:dipplin: Dipplin
:gastrodon: Gastrodon
:glastrier: Glastrier
:grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl
:hatterene: Hatterene
:hitmontop: Hitmontop
:Ho-oh: Ho-oh
:iron leaves: Iron Leaves
:kingdra: Kingdra
:skarmory: Skarmory
:staraptor: Staraptor
:talonflame: Talonflame
:tatsugiri: Tatsugiri
:ursaluna: Ursaluna
:ursaluna-bloodmoon: Ursaluna-Bloodmoon
C-
:blastoise: Blastoise
:coalossal: Coalossal
:ditto: Ditto
:dragonite: Dragonite
:gholdengo: Gholdengo
:heracross: Heracross
:iron jugulis: Iron Jugulis
:krookodile: Krookodile
:landorus-therian: Landorus-Therian
:lokix: Lokix
:lugia: Lugia
:mabosstiff: Mabosstiff
:persian-alola: Persian-Alola
:ribombee: Ribombee
:serperior: Serperior
:tentacruel: Tentacruel
:toedscruel: Toedscruel
:weezing-galar: Weezing-Galar
:zapdos: Zapdos
 

Bobsican

Powerscaler at heart
is a Top Tiering Contributor
Some thoughts on the VR:

:Golurk::Lycanroc-Midnight:: Those two in particular should be lower TBH, they're generally ran as suicide leads to set Stealth Rock, but mainly to donate No Guard, which is a good niche and all, but not really indicative of a rather high placement in A- as they currently are, I'd think :Golurk: in particular is worse as Ghost/Ground is quite lacking offensively, and being quite slow means that it's very vulnerable to anti-leading by stuff like Taunt or just KOing it. :lycanroc-dusk: can remain where it is as Tough Claws is a really powerful ability and retains offensive pressure early-game with it alongside decent speed.

:sylveon:: Pixilate is a strong ability usually, but in this context where there's no Fairy-types with Extreme Speed without Terastallizing, and the only native STAB Boomburst is possible on :scream tail:, renders teams abusing this quite inconsistent, especially when it comes to Fairy resists (as teams using this ability for a good portion of their team would require Fairy spam or similar). x1.2 isn't that big of a multiplier either way.

:cinccino::hitmontop:: These two just have no real niche to begin with thanks to far viable options in :maushold:, :cloyster: and :scizor: existing, and thus shouldn't be on the VR, best you can argue for :hitmontop: is that it's an Intimidate donor that compresses hazard removal with Rapid Spin, but the thing is that in a meta where fat Ghosts are common it lacks the means to keep momentum with them, especially if it chooses to run Intimidate, Intimidate also means auto-losing to teams with :annihilape: or :ogerpon: (lol Defiant), so I wouldn't recommend it.

:Lapras:: I can't think of any good reasoning for this to be in the VR at all, Water Absorb has better donors in :ogerpon-wellspring: and :clodsire:, Hydration has :manaphy:, and offensively just use :iron bundle:.

:glastrier:: Almost entirely outclassed by :calyrex-ice: if it wasn't for the mere idea of stacking it with Moxie, TBH stacking As One with that and more is quite unecessary as then you end up with a team with redundant mons that can be easily overwhelmed ironically, should be unranked IMO.

:Heracross:: Entirely outclassed by :quaquaval:, :ursaluna: and :conkeldurr:, just use those instead, should be unranked.

:ursaluna-bloodmoon:: Now that Ice Scales is practically gone it should be ranked higher, especially as Mind's Eye lets it bring competition to :decidueye-hisui: as a fat Scrappy donor overall.

:persian-alola:: Given that Fur Coat isn't shared, this is limited to act as a bulky pivot without donating anything, a lack of setup or utility beyond Parting Shot and Knock Off also render it quite passive on its own, and no recovery options also means that it can't be used much anyways, should be unranked as it's outclassed by :wo-chien: and :grimmsnarl:. Even :pecharunt:, which I wouldn't recommend as its ability is mid at best for this meta, has netically more physical bulk than it, more utility and recovery, yet I'd also think it should be unranked so far (not that it's ranked right now, but for reference).

Wait, :samurott-hisui: isn't ranked? That's weird, between being a good donor of Sharpness, Ceaseless Edge, nice offensive typing and coverage, and an higher speed tier than :kleavor:, would lead me to believe it should be at least B, especially as it enhances well stuff in higher ranks like :iron boulder:, :iron crown:, :maushold: and :lilligant-hisui:.
 
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:arceus:
Why are the Arceus forms in C? I faced someone using Cosmic Power Arceus-Fighting, and I would have lost if I had not used my Final Gambit Basculin. Arceus can still be a dangerous setup sweeper even with Psyceus gone.

:espathra:
I think Espathra should be higher up as well in A, as it eliminates any attempts at setting up special attackers or boosting defenses for stall.

:houndstone: :decidueye:
Finally, I find it slightly illogical that Houndstone is rated above Decidueye. Decidueye is the absolute counter to Houndstone with Long Reach and still has somewhat good support moves such as Defog, Roost, U-Turn, Knock Off, and Tailwind.
 

Bobsican

Powerscaler at heart
is a Top Tiering Contributor
VRs generally don't work merely on a basis of what beats what, but rather their general performance/impact in the metagame, so while :decidueye: does considerably cripple opposing teams with :houndstone:, it's also quite slow, can't force out hazard setters well, and has somewhat lacking bulk, while Houndstone can perform consistently with more stuff beyond merely donating an ability as I've explained in a previous post, let alone Fluffy being a quite meta-defining ability.
 

KaenSoul

Shared:Power Little Knight
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Just so everyone is aware, updates of the VR will go in the second post of this thread, here https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/shared-power.3711011/post-9401958
Some thoughts on the VR:

:Golurk::Lycanroc-Midnight:: Those two in particular should be lower TBH, they're generally ran as suicide leads to set Stealth Rock, but mainly to donate No Guard, which is a good niche and all, but not really indicative of a rather high placement in A- as they currently are, I'd think :Golurk: in particular is worse as Ghost/Ground is quite lacking offensively, and being quite slow means that it's very vulnerable to anti-leading by stuff like Taunt or just KOing it. :lycanroc-dusk: can remain where it is as Tough Claws is a really powerful ability and retains offensive pressure early-game with it alongside decent speed.

:sylveon:: Pixilate is a strong ability usually, but in this context where there's no Fairy-types with Extreme Speed without Terastallizing, and the only native STAB Boomburst is possible on :scream tail:, renders teams abusing this quite inconsistent, especially when it comes to Fairy resists (as teams using this ability for a good portion of their team would require Fairy spam or similar). x1.2 isn't that big of a multiplier either way.

:cinccino::hitmontop:: These two just have no real niche to begin with thanks to far viable options in :maushold:, :cloyster: and :scizor: existing, and thus shouldn't be on the VR, best you can argue for :hitmontop: is that it's an Intimidate donor that compresses hazard removal with Rapid Spin, but the thing is that in a meta where fat Ghosts are common it lacks the means to keep momentum with them, especially if it chooses to run Intimidate, Intimidate also means auto-losing to teams with :annihilape: or :ogerpon: (lol Defiant), so I wouldn't recommend it.

:Lapras:: I can't think of any good reasoning for this to be in the VR at all, Water Absorb has better donors in :ogerpon-wellspring: and :clodsire:, Hydration has :manaphy:, and offensively just use :iron bundle:.

:glastrier:: Almost entirely outclassed by :calyrex-ice: if it wasn't for the mere idea of stacking it with Moxie, TBH stacking As One with that and more is quite unecessary as then you end up with a team with redundant mons that can be easily overwhelmed ironically, should be unranked IMO.

:Heracross: Entirely outclassed by :quaquaval:, :ursaluna: and :conkeldurr:, just use those instead, should be unranked.

:ursaluna-bloodmoon:: Now that Ice Scales is practically gone it should be ranked higher, especially as Mind's Eye lets it bring competition to :decidueye-hisui: as a fat Scrappy donor overall.

:persian-alola:: Given that Fur Coat isn't shared, this is limited to act as a bulky pivot without donating anything, a lack of setup or utility beyond Parting Shot and Knock Off also render it quite passive on its own, and no recovery options also means that it can't be used much anyways, should be unranked as it's outclassed by :wo-chien: and :grimmsnarl:. Even :pecharunt:, which I wouldn't recommend as its ability is mid at best for this meta, has netically more physical bulk than it, more utility and recovery, yet I'd also think it should be unranked so far (not that it's ranked right now, but for reference).

Wait, :samurott-hisui: isn't ranked? That's weird, between being a good donor of Sharpness, Ceaseless Edge, nice offensive typing and coverage, and an higher speed tier than :kleavor:, would lead me to believe it should be at least B, especially as it enhances well stuff in higher ranks like :iron boulder:, :iron crown:, :maushold: and :lilligant-hisui:.
Lapras is rankend because of a perish trap set that was used a bit on ladder last month in stall with Shell Armor, it may not be as good now tho.
Samu-h was just skipped by mistake.
:arceus:
Why are the Arceus forms in C? I faced someone using Cosmic Power Arceus-Fighting, and I would have lost if I had not used my Final Gambit Basculin. Arceus can still be a dangerous setup sweeper even with Psyceus gone.

:espathra:
I think Espathra should be higher up as well in A, as it eliminates any attempts at setting up special attackers or boosting defenses for stall.

:houndstone: :decidueye:
Finally, I find it slightly illogical that Houndstone is rated above Decidueye. Decidueye is the absolute counter to Houndstone with Long Reach and still has somewhat good support moves such as Defog, Roost, U-Turn, Knock Off, and Tailwind.
Havent found many successful teams that use the remaining Arceus formes, it may rise if we see more of them.
Espathra isn't as mandatory in fat teams as it used to be, current stall builds don't often use it as there is just not much space for it, is still good but is unsure how good it will be in the new meta, specially now that the most common QD user in the tier become unviable.
 
Maybe I'm not understanding something, but doesn't restricting ice scales (presumably beacause it restricted special attackers) and then banning all the best special attackers beacause what restricted them is gone render the original reason for banning ice scales mute.

I might just not be understanding something but, to put it bluntly the decision seems kinda dumb
(once again if I am just not understanding something please do tell)
 

KaenSoul

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Maybe I'm not understanding something, but doesn't restricting ice scales (presumably beacause it restricted special attackers) and then banning all the best special attackers beacause what restricted them is gone render the original reason for banning ice scales mute.

I might just not be understanding something but, to put it bluntly the decision seems kinda dumb
(once again if I am just not understanding something please do tell)
In simple words, Ice Scales kept the banned mons in check, but also made special moves on non-dedicated teams rather useless. The banned mons would be too much without Ice Scales, but now you can use everything else without that much problem.
 
After diving back into the current meta, I experimented with a few different team compositions. The stall sample I tried had its merits, but I found myself tweaking Chansey, swapping out Terra Type for Water, particularly for Iron Crown matchups. Honestly, Clodsire just didn't vibe with me. In my opinion, for a stall team to be truly effective, it needs at least five useful donated abilities (Levitate doesn't count in my book). If I were to revisit stall, I'd definitely consider replacing Clod with Ting-Lu or a similar option.

Next up, I gave a Berry-centric team a shot, but it didn't quite hit the mark. I ended up leaning heavily on Sitrus Berry spam alongside Intimidate and Wo-Tien. Here's the setup I tried: pokepast.es/053cb1ba4eacf157. Perhaps swapping Intimidate for another defensive ability could improve its performance. The Berry Pokémon's typings and base stats didn't quite align with the team style I aimed for.

Finally, I opted for an Iron Crown team and managed to clinch the top spot. This Pokémon is a tough nut to crack. The only solid counters seem to be Terra'd Caly, which still takes a hefty 65% damage exchange post-Terra or Chansey/Blissey post-Terra. I opted for a Scarf to enhance the potential to come in repeatedly. Additionally, I found Calm Mind-boosted Energy to be quite potent, rendering most defensive checks ineffective. Psyshock is another valuable move in its arsenal. The primary strategies that reliably counters this setup involve faster Pokémon like Iron Boulder or banking on speed tie wins against opposing Iron Crowns. This is why I favored Webs Smeargle over Scizor: pokepast.es/19e2724f5c4c7fa3.

In my opinion, Iron Crown stands out as one of the most formidable strategies in the current meta, closely rivaled by well-built stall.

wao.png
 
I've been playing around with this meta for a while now, it's pretty fun. I've been mainly running a poison team, started out with merciless and toxic debris and built up from there. I've been running into a few troubles with stall teams becoming more prominent, and while I'm aware this team won't ever be competitively viable I'm wondering if there are any tweaks I can make to give it a bit more power.
Glimmora @ Focus Sash
Ability: Toxic Debris
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Mortal Spin
- Power Gem

Toxapex @ Leftovers
Ability: Merciless
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Venoshock
- Recover
- Surf

Salazzle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Corrosion
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Protect
- Flamethrower
- Sludge Bomb

Hydreigon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- U-turn

Gengar @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Toxic
- Toxic Spikes
- Shadow Ball

Golduck @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cloud Nine
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flip Turn
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off
- Encore

Glimmora, Toxapex, and Salazzle provide the necessary abilities to make the gimmick work, being Toxic Debris, Merciless, and Corrosion. Glimmora is the usual lead, getting rocks and a few layers of spikes, while keeping rocks off with Mortal Spin. Keeping rocks off is central for this team to function, as I'm running 4 sashes to maximize poison turns. I've found that keeping up with the offensive power of the meta is almost impossible when 3 ability slots are dedicated to poison, so using sashes and protect helps maximize toxic damage and put targets into good ranges for kills.

Hydreigon can probably have it's set tweaked a little bit, but levitate is a great ability when you have this many poison types. As well, it gives you a built in spikes immunity, which allows you to sac Glimmora against some electric terrain teams that only have Pincurchin's spikes for hazards. Scarf is useful for outspeeding basically the entire unboosted meta, and Merciless + T-Spikes giving infinite crits allows for Draco Meteor to sweep weakened teams. Hydreigon is the pokemon that's given this team the most success, and Levitate has definitely caught a few people off guard, and can make Toxapex and Glimmora incredibley tanky against certain movesets.

Gengar could probably use some tweaks to it's set as well. Having manual toxic spikes is necessary against special spam teams, and another toxic spreader can take pressure off against levitate teams. As well, shadow ball does decent damage when it's guaranteed to crit, and Cursed Body has clutched up a few games, particularily against multi-hit teams or anything featuring Maushold. Gengar could definitely be replaced, I'm not sure what with though.

The final team slot is still up in the air, I'm currently running Golduck, but I've had Fezandipiti and Wo-Chien as candidates before. Another sash user can provide some extra chip from poison, and potentially score a K.O. against weakened teams, but Golduck often lacks the power to take kills cleanly. The only reason I'm using Golduck is because of the insane number of weather teams I've faced on ladder recently. It seems like 2 out of every 3 battles is against some sort of sun or rain team. Before Golduck, Leaf Guard + Drought was an unplayable matchup, and same with Hydration + Drizzle. It still can't help against Natural Cure + Levitate, but thankfully that archetype is a bit more uncommon on ladder. I'm sure that there's some other pokemon that would fit a lot better here, I'm not sure what it is though. Any advice would be great!
 

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