Shaymin (Substitute + 3 Attacks)

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This is a Shaymin set that I've been using lately. I think it's relatively decent, so I decided to try posting it; the only set I saw utilizing Substitute was the SubSeed set on the analysis page. I suck at EV spreads, however, so any suggestions would be appreciated.




http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/shaymin

[SET]
name: Substitute + 3 Attacks
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Seed Flare
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice
item: Leftovers
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:
- Retains Shaymin's ability to switch in to and threaten bulky Waters, while taking advantage of switches by setting up a Substitute.
- Able to take down Fire-types, such as Heatran and Infernape that would usually cause problems for it.

Additional Comments:
- Hidden Power Fire prevents Steel-types from walling you, and is useful for hitting Skarmory, who could otherwise set up hazards. Hidden Power Ice is used to OHKO Dragonite after Stealth Rock.
- 252/252 for maximum power and the ability to tie with other Base 100's.
- 224 Speed EVs can be used if Hidden Power Fire (results in imperfect Speed IV) is chosen to outspeed Base 95's.

Teammates and Counters:
- Teammates: Pokemon that benefit from the removal of Fire-types, and to a lesser extent, threats that are hit by the Hidden Power type chosen. Some examples include Jirachi, Scizor, and most other Steels.
- Counters: Blissey is a 100% counter to this set, but switching out while still behind the Substitute could allow you to bring in a sweeper without being statused. Snorlax also counters the set.
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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If you're depending on Substitute to do a lot of your work, why do you need the bulk? If you're gonna run a bunch of HP for a Substitute set, you might as well just go all the way and run Max, but then again, that means no power or no speed, so in that case, why not just go the whole way and just use a 252/252 spread?
 
If you're depending on Substitute to do a lot of your work, why do you need the bulk? If you're gonna run a bunch of HP for a Substitute set, you might as well just go all the way and run Max, but then again, that means no power or no speed, so in that case, why not just go the whole way and just use a 252/252 spread?
Agreed wouldn't tying with other base 100's be a bit more important? I doubt the bulk really does anything useful
 

Super Mario Bro

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Well, you could make the case that 176 HP EVs makes harder-to-break substitutes, but other than that, Timid 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe is better 100% of the time.
 
Blissey isn't a 100% counter because of Seed Flare. It's more like a 74.5% counter. Which is less accuracy than Stone Edge. Read: Blissey has, in actuality, around a 30% chance to avoid getting a spd drop.[/joke]

You may want to mention that HP Fire doesn't 2HKO Specially Defensive Skarm. 35.9% - 42.5% with max damage and Stealth Rock.

With that in mind, how about slashing HP Ice in front of HP Fire? It also has a bonus of not lowering special attack/speed ivs, which is pretty nifty. Arguably, but a +1 Dragonite is more threatening than a layer of spikes.

EDIT: So, yeah, run 4/252/252 timid. You may want to mention dropping the speed evs to 224 when running hp fire, to outspeed base 95s, and giving you a bit more bulk.

Also, howsabout a Life Orb slash, since you have no more [invested] bulk to sub with?
 

SJCrew

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Hey, you know what takes advantage of switch-ins better? Seed Flare. lol 40% Sp. Def drop. Shaymin doesn't care about status either because of Natural Cure. And if you're using Sub, you might as well be using Leech Seed, since it makes up for that disappointing lack of power by stalling. What's the point of using this over any other Shaymin set?
 

cim

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Blissey isn't a 100% counter because of Seed Flare. It's more like a 74.5% counter. Which is less accuracy than Stone Edge. Read: Blissey has, in actuality, around a 30% chance to avoid getting a spd drop.[/joke]
Except without a boosting nature or Life Orb, Blissey isn't 2HKOed with a drop. Plus, Blissey can break Shaymin's Substitutes in one hit.

In my book, there's two ways to go with a Sub set on Shaymin, at least in theory.

1. 252 HP. This gets you a 101 HP Sub, giving you a ton of Seed Flares in a row. This should help you chip away at Blissey and hope for a big drop. Leech Seed is nice but you don't need it outside of Sand since you get all 8 of your Seed Flares.

2. To "scout". However this isn't really necessary. The switch ins to Shaymin are: Blissey, which Sub doesn't help against without 101 HP; Heatran, which will switch out when the Sub goes up anyway / you could pretty easily predict; Sdef Skarm, which you don't beat with this set; Tentacruel, which is the same story as Sdef Skarm, and other Celebi / Shaymin, which also don't care about Sub. Basically, other than Heatran, there's no use for it.
 
Edited EV spread and added suggestions.

Hey, you know what takes advantage of switch-ins better? Seed Flare. lol 40% Sp. Def drop. Shaymin doesn't care about status either because of Natural Cure. And if you're using Sub, you might as well be using Leech Seed, since it makes up for that disappointing lack of power by stalling. What's the point of using this over any other Shaymin set?
I wanted to be able to beat Fire-types (notably Heatran) while still using an offensive-minded set. There wasn't always room for Earth Power on some of the other sets, and even if I had it, I would have to predict correctly to hit Choice Scarf Heatran.
 

kokoloko

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Eh, I would much rather go with standard sweeping Shaymin. Sub doesn't accomplish anything outside of forcing it's Fire-type switch-ins back out.
 
I'm not sure if this is even a good point, but if your opponent sends in a Fire-type while you use Substitute, then decide to switch out expecting the Earth Power, you are still behind the Sub. Against people who depend primarily on Heatran to check Grass-types, it may just result in opportunities to attack their less viable counter.
 

Zystral

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I'm not so hot on this set. I've used it on Shaymin before, as well as countless other random Pokemon. Things like this work on Heatran and Flygon since they're more often seen carrying Scarves, so it makes it easier for Substitute to scout for the Scarf Counter etc.
Shaymin Life Orbs nearly all the time, so I don't see why you couldn't just spam Seed Flare with it. The only problems there are 1. Missing (85 acc) / 2. 8 PP sucks / 3. They switch in Heatran who is x4 resistant. Even in the third case scenario, there's a 50% spdef drop chance, which Heatran will not enjoy considering things like Thunderbolts hit it neutrally and most Surfs can already 2HKO even SpDef Heatran.

I guess it could be alright for when they have a Scarf Heatran/Flygon or anything that threatens Shaymin with a Scarf, since you can Substitute and KO it instead of it KOing you, but again, I'd rather use the Life Orb Set, spam an attack for some damage and then switch to an appropriate response. If they're switching Heatran/Flygon into Shaymin in the first place it's most likely Scarfed anyway, and Scarf Flygon/Heatran isn't hard to deal with, really.

"Eh" I guess, I don't see why this can't go as AC in the main set, since the EVs are the same, and all you're doing is using SubLefties over RestOrb.

Also just a mention - switching out while behind a Substitute does not prevent Statuses from incoming Blissey/whatever, since once you switch the Substitute breaks and the Pokemon you bring in IS vulnerable to Paralysis or any status. And as a smart player, if I was up against a Shaymin using Blissey, I'd know they'd switch since I wall them completely, so paralysing their switch is actually a good move.
 

remlabmez

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Hey, you know what takes advantage of switch-ins better? Seed Flare. lol 40% Sp. Def drop. Shaymin doesn't care about status either because of Natural Cure. And if you're using Sub, you might as well be using Leech Seed, since it makes up for that disappointing lack of power by stalling. What's the point of using this over any other Shaymin set?
This.

id rather leech an incoming nape/tran/whatever counters shaymin and switch to a pokemon. leech seed is way too good to pass up
 

Setsuna

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I can actually see the appeal of this set, but I'm not sure of its utility to be quite honest. I mean, if you want to take advantage of switch-ins, why just not simply spam Seed Flare or use Leech Seed? Why do you need to sacrifice 25% of your HP just to make sure that Shaymin will not be inflicted a status change (and even then, Toxic Spikes still exist, and Shaymin boasts Natural Cure)?

The only difference that I see on this set when compared to the ones that are being written for Shaymin at the moment, is Substitute from an offensive perspective. This brings up the following question: is it really advisable to use Substitute in the all-offensive Shaymin over Rest? I'd rather see Substitute mentioned in AC/OC than having almost two identical sets on-site.

Faladran, unless you convince me otherwise, I will have to reject this set for the time being ;)

QC REJECTED (1/3)
 
I've been using this set and in all honesty it works wonders. With the abundance of pokemon like Suicune and other bulky waters commonly used now it has many chances to set up, in my experience anyways. Under a sub random revenge killers or faster foes such as ScarfTran and Infernape can't revenge kill it and will almost always lose to Earth Power.

Btw HP Ice over fire tbh. Scizor isn't as common as it used to be which would be the main reason to use it, bar like Skarmory, while Dragonite has seen a huge rise in usage. You'll still be hitting other grass types for super effective damage as well as all, bar Skarmory, flying types.

How many people have actually tested this set and failed to see it's uses? I can bet that the majority of you base this purely on theorymon so I don't think you can say much but if you have tested this and still don't like it then...well ok then =)
 

Setsuna

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That's three, locking.

Thank you Faladran for having posted this set and the effort put behind it. Feel free to try again in the future.
 
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