Resource Simple Questions, Simple Answers: UM Edition

tennisace

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This thread is for simple questions that need relatively simple answers, those kinds of questions rarely lead to meaningful conversation. If you were considering posting in a thread to ask "Is Focus Sash allowed in 1v1?" or making a new thread to ask "Where can I play UMs?" I'd recommend asking those questions here instead. For simple questions related to Smogon ask here. For in-game help/info check the Orange Islands subforum. This section is for competitive discussion only.

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How will the PS! ladder work with unofficial metagames? Will they be their own seperate branch or still stay in the "Other metagmes" section? Also, will offsets of messages, such as 2v2 doubles, have their own ladders?
 

tennisace

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How will the PS! ladder work with unofficial metagames? Will they be their own seperate branch or still stay in the "Other metagmes" section? Also, will offsets of messages, such as 2v2 doubles, have their own ladders?
Probably their own separate branch. I don't think that 2v2 will get a ladder but it should be a challenge tier.

Will these metagames (ones without permaladders obviously) still be eligible for Other Metagame of the Month / Leaders' Choice of the Month? If not will there be some replacement so they can be played on main in some fashion?
No. Level 2 tiers should have permanent ladders though.
 

maroon

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Few questions here:
1) Since UMs are pretty much what the om analyses subforum focuses on, will it split or stay OM analyses?
2) Will UMs have their own room like the OM room on showdown?
3) For tours, will the OMs stay in that circuit for 2019. And if so does that mean like AG and ZU will still be in OMPL, or is there going to be like a UMPL?
 

Xayah

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Few questions here:
1) Since UMs are pretty much what the om analyses subforum focuses on, will it split or stay OM analyses?
2) Will UMs have their own room like the OM room on showdown?
3) For tours, will the OMs stay in that circuit for 2019. And if so does that mean like AG and ZU will still be in OMPL, or is there going to be like a UMPL?
1) UMs will be staying in the OM Analyses subforum for now, what happens in the future is to be determined.
2) UMs most likely won’t have their own room as of yet, but each of the level 2 metagames does have a room to itself.
3) ZU and AG will stay in the OM Circuit for 2019 and this won’t cause any changes in OMPL. A UMPL is certainly possible and something I am personally very interested in, but it’s not going to be instead of OMPL or anything like that.
 
Hi. May I ask specifically what the specific requirements are for qualifying a meta as a UM? The rough understanding I had was that it is a meta created using only "soft bans" without any programmatic changes or data changes ("metagames which exist without needing to hack the games"), such as Middle Cup banning all non-middle stage Pokemon. However, Suicide Cup has been qualified as a UM even though it does involve a major programmatic change, i.e. altering the win condition.
 

The Immortal

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Hi. May I ask specifically what the specific requirements are for qualifying a meta as a UM? The rough understanding I had was that it is a meta created using only "soft bans" without any programmatic changes or data changes ("metagames which exist without needing to hack the games"), such as Middle Cup banning all non-middle stage Pokemon. However, Suicide Cup has been qualified as a UM even though it does involve a major programmatic change, i.e. altering the win condition.
Anything that would be legally playable in-game. Suicide Cup can be played by agreeing with the opponent that the first to “lose” is the winner. Another example would be Hemiswap. You can replicate that in-game by trading with your opponent before battling. So it’s not necessarily just bans and clauses but could be other rules or conditions, like All Stars.
 
Anything that would be legally playable in-game. Suicide Cup can be played by agreeing with the opponent that the first to “lose” is the winner. Another example would be Hemiswap. You can replicate that in-game by trading with your opponent before battling. So it’s not necessarily just bans and clauses but could be other rules or conditions, like All Stars.
You could play an in-game match of Pokemon in which players agree to interpret the win and lose states the opposite way around. However, such a game would be very unlike Suicide Cup in that the optimal strategy would be to attempt to forfeit before the other player in order to trigger the loss state. Or perhaps it could be argued that Suicide Cup could be simulated by players agreeing to ignore the 3DS game state in this situation...but this seems to violate the idea that the meta can be played in-game. In principle, it seems that any OM could be considered as an UM in this way, by players agreeing to ignore the in-game state to differing extents and manually calculating the outcomes of decisions under the OM rules.

This might seem like irrelevant hair-splitting, and I would be overjoyed if that were the case. However, as according to previous answers, metas reclassified as UMs can no longer be nominated for OMotM, the classification is unfortunately highly consequential because becoming a UM seems to be functionally a massive 'downgrade' for a meta at this time. May I ask if there has been consideration of harmonising the relevance of OMs and UMs, for example by running an 'UM of the Month' event similar to OMotM?
 

Xayah

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You could play an in-game match of Pokemon in which players agree to interpret the win and lose states the opposite way around. However, such a game would be very unlike Suicide Cup in that the optimal strategy would be to attempt to forfeit before the other player in order to trigger the loss state. Or perhaps it could be argued that Suicide Cup could be simulated by players agreeing to ignore the 3DS game state in this situation...but this seems to violate the idea that the meta can be played in-game. In principle, it seems that any OM could be considered as an UM in this way, by players agreeing to ignore the in-game state to differing extents and manually calculating the outcomes of decisions under the OM rules.

This might seem like irrelevant hair-splitting, and I would be overjoyed if that were the case. However, as according to previous answers, metas reclassified as UMs can no longer be nominated for OMotM, the classification is unfortunately highly consequential because becoming a UM seems to be functionally a massive 'downgrade' for a meta at this time. May I ask if there has been consideration of harmonising the relevance of OMs and UMs, for example by running an 'UM of the Month' event similar to OMotM?
I won't be speaking on UMotM, as I honestly have no idea if such a thing is possible at any point in time, but I'll speak on everything else.
Balanced Hackmons, Almost Any Ability, Mix and Mega, Sketchmons, Camomons, etc. None of these OMs can be played without hacking or using third party devices, regardless of what deals you make with your opponent. Meanwhile, looking at UMs:
Anything Goes is simple, just do whatever you want.
ZeroUsed is just a list of bans, so it can clearly be played by talking to your opponent.
1v1 is an agreement with your opponent to play a 'bring 3, choose 1' meta, which is fine.
LGPE is an agreement to play on LGPE.
Mediocremons and Middle Cup both just have banlists, though MC is played at lvl 50 as well. Again, this can just be done by agreeing to it with your opponent.
And that brings us to Suicide Cup. Sure, the agreement here is a little more complicated, but really only a little. 'Whoever loses wins, unless you forfeit'. As someone who doesn't play SC, I'm fairly certain this is what the meta comes down to.

As to whether or not UM is a downgrade, as a leader of one of them, it is very much not. Granted, I lead ZU, a level 2 meta as opposed to a level 1 one, so you can argue that that's not fair. I understand the concern regarding no UMotM or LC for them, and maybe it was a downgrade in that sense, but none of these have won OMotM in a long time (maybe SC but I don't think so), so honestly giving them a clearer route and goals to grow to is probably better for them, even if Level 2 is still way out of their reach at the current time. Meanwhile, new UMs will have an easier time getting accepted, while this was incredibly difficult to do before. ZU, for example, existed for years before we were accepted as an OM, whereas if we had had UMs back then, it'd have gone much smoother.

I hope this answered your questions
 
And that brings us to Suicide Cup. Sure, the agreement here is a little more complicated, but really only a little. 'Whoever loses wins, unless you forfeit'. As someone who doesn't play SC, I'm fairly certain this is what the meta comes down to.
Ignoring parts of the game state in-battle seems not merely more complex but qualitatively different to creating prior limitations on what can be taken into battle. To expand on my previous example, if UMs allow for the in-battle state on 3DS to be selectively ignored, then, for instance, Almost Any Ability could be considered to qualify as a UM by players who make an agreement to decide the outcome of the match based on pen and paper calculations using their abilities of their choice. This is a real difference of mere complexity (albeit it a large one) from the SC situation, rather than a qualitative one from, say, a Middle Cup match in which the outcome is fully determined on 3DS.

The UM concept seems perfectly fair and right for ZU, as well as potential upcoming metas that couldn't have been accepted as OMs. However, Suicide Cup (and perhaps Middle Cup and others also) has a smaller profile that means that while it can win OMotM once or twice a generation, it probably won't ever be considered for a permaladder. SC last won OMotM less than a year ago, and I ended up here because I was unable to nominate it again this month. While I can accept that transitioning it to UM was by no means intended as a downgrade, when functionally this means that the meta will be prevented from becoming playable on main again until another policy change, that is what it is.

Thank-you for answering my questions to the best of your ability. As it seems that there is no inherent conflict between enabling metas like ZU to grow into permaladders and giving smaller ones access to temporary spotlights like OMotM, I can only hope that a further level of flexibility in managing non-official metagames can be realised in future.
 
How does one submit tournaments for UMs? Does it work via the usual unofficial tournament application that official metagames use or is there some arcane process no-one understands or is told about akin to their former home in OMs (and if the latter, how exactly)?
 

Xayah

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Ignoring parts of the game state in-battle seems not merely more complex but qualitatively different to creating prior limitations on what can be taken into battle. To expand on my previous example, if UMs allow for the in-battle state on 3DS to be selectively ignored, then, for instance, Almost Any Ability could be considered to qualify as a UM by players who make an agreement to decide the outcome of the match based on pen and paper calculations using their abilities of their choice. This is a real difference of mere complexity (albeit it a large one) from the SC situation, rather than a qualitative one from, say, a Middle Cup match in which the outcome is fully determined on 3DS.
The key difference here is that SC requires nothing except a change of ruleset which both players agree upon, while AAA, as you said, requires pen and paper calculations (as well the whole thing where your Pokemon would still have its standard ability and that messes with the damage etc, but I digress). Keep in mind, despite how silly it sounds, pen and paper is still a third party here, and in none of the current UMs does anyone have to calculate anything in their head. Really, I feel like the distinction between UMs and OMs is pretty clear, as it comes down to 'do I need to hack to be able to bring the Pokemon legal in this meta'. For BH, AAA, and M&M, you do, since Imposter Chansey, Desolate Land Heatran, and Diancite working on things other than Diancie aren't possible otherwise, but for ZU, 1v1, and SC, you don't, since in the end it comes down to determining a ruleset and nothing more.
 

The Immortal

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Ignoring parts of the game state in-battle seems not merely more complex but qualitatively different to creating prior limitations on what can be taken into battle. To expand on my previous example, if UMs allow for the in-battle state on 3DS to be selectively ignored, then, for instance, Almost Any Ability could be considered to qualify as a UM by players who make an agreement to decide the outcome of the match based on pen and paper calculations using their abilities of their choice. This is a real difference of mere complexity (albeit it a large one) from the SC situation, rather than a qualitative one from, say, a Middle Cup match in which the outcome is fully determined on 3DS.

The UM concept seems perfectly fair and right for ZU, as well as potential upcoming metas that couldn't have been accepted as OMs. However, Suicide Cup (and perhaps Middle Cup and others also) has a smaller profile that means that while it can win OMotM once or twice a generation, it probably won't ever be considered for a permaladder. SC last won OMotM less than a year ago, and I ended up here because I was unable to nominate it again this month. While I can accept that transitioning it to UM was by no means intended as a downgrade, when functionally this means that the meta will be prevented from becoming playable on main again until another policy change, that is what it is.

Thank-you for answering my questions to the best of your ability. As it seems that there is no inherent conflict between enabling metas like ZU to grow into permaladders and giving smaller ones access to temporary spotlights like OMotM, I can only hope that a further level of flexibility in managing non-official metagames can be realised in future.
There's three, not very active, metas; UMotM is unnecessary. This section isn't meant to be the mass influx that OMs is or a section that competes with OM. However, when creation of this section was discussed, I said that I would be okay with having UMs as Leader's Choice OMotM. If any of the level 1 metagames are ever active, I will definitely consider it for LCotM.

How does one submit tournaments for UMs? Does it work via the usual unofficial tournament application that official metagames use or is there some arcane process no-one understands or is told about akin to their former home in OMs (and if the latter, how exactly)?
Presumably pm'ing me and tennisace, just as you would for a UM submission. Although we don't have section specific guides, this is a good guide to follow.
 
The key difference here is that SC requires nothing except a change of ruleset which both players agree upon, while AAA, as you said, requires pen and paper calculations (as well the whole thing where your Pokemon would still have its standard ability and that messes with the damage etc, but I digress). Keep in mind, despite how silly it sounds, pen and paper is still a third party here, and in none of the current UMs does anyone have to calculate anything in their head. Really, I feel like the distinction between UMs and OMs is pretty clear, as it comes down to 'do I need to hack to be able to bring the Pokemon legal in this meta'. For BH, AAA, and M&M, you do, since Imposter Chansey, Desolate Land Heatran, and Diancite working on things other than Diancie aren't possible otherwise, but for ZU, 1v1, and SC, you don't, since in the end it comes down to determining a ruleset and nothing more.
The pen and paper is not intrinsically necessary. It was just a concrete example of how players might agree to override the 3DS game state for other metas in the same way that SC requires. In theory this could also be done without any props using mental arithmetic; it is just a difference of complexity rather than kind. Although SC doesn't involve hacking Pokemon like AAA or BH, it hacks the basic game rules, as in for example Linked or Inverse.

There's three, not very active, metas; UMotM is unnecessary. This section isn't meant to be the mass influx that OMs is or a section that competes with OM. However, when creation of this section was discussed, I said that I would be okay with having UMs as Leader's Choice OMotM. If any of the level 1 metagames are ever active, I will definitely consider it for LCotM.
Thank-you!
 

Xayah

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The pen and paper is not intrinsically necessary. It was just a concrete example of how players might agree to override the 3DS game state for other metas in the same way that SC requires. In theory this could also be done without any props using mental arithmetic; it is just a difference of complexity rather than kind. Although SC doesn't involve hacking Pokemon like AAA or BH, it hacks the basic game rules, as in for example Linked or Inverse.
I'm not sure how I can explain this differently really, but just think of it like this. Assuming we had each others 3DS friend codes and had our teams on there, I could challenge you right now to a Suicide Cup battle, since all that changes is the win condition. There are no mechanics that change. However, as much as I'd want to, I wouldn't be able to challenge you to a Linked battle in a reasonable way, and there might be an Inverse option on cart but I don't think so. No matter how hard we try, we can't replicate those metas on cart. Yes, theoretically, you could calculate the damage yourself and eventually declare a winner, but that's no different to not using a 3DS at all. The point of UMs is that you can just play the meta on cart with minimal complications. Suicide Cup is very simple, as it comes down to just 'Try to lose without forfeiting' with a few added bans but we've established that's not a problem.
 
I'm not sure how I can explain this differently really, but just think of it like this. Assuming we had each others 3DS friend codes and had our teams on there, I could challenge you right now to a Suicide Cup battle, since all that changes is the win condition.
I understand what you are trying to say, but what I am saying is that how the win/lose state is represented is represented is itself also a game mechanic, and if we ignore that in the forfeit case, that means that the 3DS game cannot simulate Suicide Cup with full accuracy. It is true that SC has much less complexity to manage in overriding 3DS game state than something like Linked, however, both are fundamentally similar in that how they manage game state during a battle can’t properly be replicated in the cart games.
 
Is Pikachu viable in NFE at all? Considering that Light Ball is unbanned and priority is not that common (apart from Monferno and Pawniard), it seems reasonable to assume it's at a similar level to Eevee in the VR.
 
Is reopening micro meta threat considered? Because it would be nice section in this forum and would make UM threat a a bit more active
 
Whats the point of allowing to submit an UM when both micrometas (implied by the "needs 60+ mons" rule which many micrometas dont) and UUbers is banned? I seriously cant come up for any idea other than those, id appreciate it if anyone gave me an example of what could be allowed

And why are they banned in the first place? If fits within UMs and is popular whats the problem? UUbers for example is the most popular idea for a meta that everyone suggested in the past but its shut down by the first rule in the thread, why?

If i get the slippery slope fallacy as an argument im gonna kill someone, no one is will argue for infinite playable bl tiers, and as to why one can be allowed but the other not be boils down to popularity theres obviously higher interest for oubl than publ for example


Im not interested in bl tiers either way i just want my micrometas back, but still im curious about why is this the case
 

Floss

formerly Thundaaaaa
Is there any consideration to make UU Monotype an unofficial meta in the near future? If not, why?
 
Question about Metronome Battle. Why is the current time limit 5:00? Given that literally all the player needs to do is just click "Metronome" twice each turn, it would be more logical to put a 1:00 time limit on.
 
Question about Metronome Battle. Why is the current time limit 5:00? Given that literally all the player needs to do is just click "Metronome" twice each turn, it would be more logical to put a 1:00 time limit on.
First of all this isnt where you go for metronome, and second of all, to quote Zarel here, they allow 150 seconds per turn in ladder so you have enough time to pee if you need to, if a game gets super-long.

If you don't believe this is a quote go here
 

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