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Resource SM Doubles OU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter kamikaze
- Start date
- Status
I'm new here and kinda surprised Mimikyu isn't ranked. I mean he's one of the best TR setters, able to survive double targetting pretty easily thanks to Disguise. You just put on him a Focus Sash or a Mental Herb, and you're sure to get those sweet 4 turns. And when TR is up, he still can be useful thanks to his movepool (WoW, Destiny Bound...) even if he doesn't hit hard. But it can't be ignored by your opponent or it'll just come and put TR once again.
I think he should be ranked somewhere, rank 4 seems the right place.
I think he should be ranked somewhere, rank 4 seems the right place.
On Mimikyu:
The short answer is actually fairly straightforward: Pokemon tier placement opinion in higher tiers tend to be quite consistent across playerbase for the most part. But Pokemon in tier 4 and borderline tend to range from "this should be tier 3" to "this is garbage" depending on who you're talking to. This is apparent in the last voting for Tier 4: 3 people said it deserves to be tiered, while 4 people disagreed. So actually a ton of people are agreeing with you here that Mimikyu should be ranked - it's just that others disagree.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/doubles-ou-viability-rankings.3592903/page-9#post-7440591
This isn't an isolated case. The truth is, plenty of Pokemon not on the Viability Rankings is actually good. Matt's Meloetta or Suicune has troubled many players in tournament setting. And Frania has seen enormous success this seasonal with Kartana and Mega Aerodactyl. None of those Pokemon are on the VR, but they have won a lot of games vs quality opponents. People by now should be aware that Mimikyu is not a joke. It's a situational, but legitimate threat on teams it sees play.
While I wish in an ideal world that all these highly situational Pokemon (particularly Mimikyu and Kartana) would be ranked, perhaps on Tier 5, I understand this puts a huge strain on the VR council to keep a huge list of Pokemon up-to-date, especially with the large subjectivity when it comes to lower-usage Pokemon. I simply keep a mental note of other "Tier 5s", but when I compare to other 'unranked-but-decent' Pokemon like Kartana, I understand Mimikyu staying unranked, given that other similarly decent Pokemon that can pull their weight are also unranked.
At the end of the day, there's always gonna be unranked Pokemon that's better than most of the other unranked Pokemon.
The short answer is actually fairly straightforward: Pokemon tier placement opinion in higher tiers tend to be quite consistent across playerbase for the most part. But Pokemon in tier 4 and borderline tend to range from "this should be tier 3" to "this is garbage" depending on who you're talking to. This is apparent in the last voting for Tier 4: 3 people said it deserves to be tiered, while 4 people disagreed. So actually a ton of people are agreeing with you here that Mimikyu should be ranked - it's just that others disagree.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/doubles-ou-viability-rankings.3592903/page-9#post-7440591
This isn't an isolated case. The truth is, plenty of Pokemon not on the Viability Rankings is actually good. Matt's Meloetta or Suicune has troubled many players in tournament setting. And Frania has seen enormous success this seasonal with Kartana and Mega Aerodactyl. None of those Pokemon are on the VR, but they have won a lot of games vs quality opponents. People by now should be aware that Mimikyu is not a joke. It's a situational, but legitimate threat on teams it sees play.
While I wish in an ideal world that all these highly situational Pokemon (particularly Mimikyu and Kartana) would be ranked, perhaps on Tier 5, I understand this puts a huge strain on the VR council to keep a huge list of Pokemon up-to-date, especially with the large subjectivity when it comes to lower-usage Pokemon. I simply keep a mental note of other "Tier 5s", but when I compare to other 'unranked-but-decent' Pokemon like Kartana, I understand Mimikyu staying unranked, given that other similarly decent Pokemon that can pull their weight are also unranked.
At the end of the day, there's always gonna be unranked Pokemon that's better than most of the other unranked Pokemon.
Mega Scizor: UR -> Tier 3
It deserves at least 3, proven big succes on the suspect ladder, mostly because Talkingtree's team. Can be run as a TR check since its OHKO most TR setter in Hoopa, Diancie and Busted Mimikyu, or you can run it as your TR mega. Dropping usage of Fire-types make it sweeter. Tapu Lele's priority block can be bypassed by running other Tapus. With Mega Diancie being released, this thing just gonna be better than it was.
E: Forgot to mention this also a good lax check.
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Undoubtedly one of the best Megas, probably taking out Mence as top Mega. Great coverage in Rock, Fairy, and Ground type moves, especially that broken move Diamond Storm. At times, its ability Magic Bounce can be strategically used against opponents. Good Semi-Room / Tail Room material when given the right EVs and team composition; it can of course work without speed support. Can guarantee OHKOs on bulky mons like Zygarde (unlike Gardevoir-M) and Zapdos. However, Mega Diancie can easily be checked by Landorus-T, Rain, Steel-types, and Grass-types. May make some changes, but not completely metagame-defining in my opinion.
Understandable that it got neat coverage (ex. Fire Blast, Earth Power, etc.), but not that great without Life Orb. Got neat status moves like Taunt and Tailwind, too, but Fairy and Fighting-type moves are everywhere. No one even uses this mon; it's almost like Sylveon in not being used.
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Porygon-Z -> Tier 3
This thing fits tier 3 description perfectly, in that it needs some support to set up (just stop it being hit for one turn) but is absolutely nutty once it gets the z conversion off. This thing has been used quite often so should not just be seen as a gimmick anymore. Its also been used to good effect.
Snorlax -> Tier 1.5
The meta has really adapted to snorlax such that it isnt that big of a threat anymore. Ofc it still commands that lando-t run knock off over superpower but you will rarely see a team that gets dunked by it anymore. If you let it get knocked/hoopa'ed then lax becomes so much less of a threat as you just have to beat it down enough as it cant recover. the belly drum set doesnt give you any physical bulk so leaves you vulnerable still. this thing is still p good so i think 1.5 is suitable for it
A couple more noms to hopefully get a vote out of the council.
Ferrothorn -> Tier 1.5
When the best fire type in the tier at the moment is flamethrower genesect, ferro is always going to be a strong mon. fighting types are pretty bad now too outside of marshadow. but ferro lives cc and can ohko back with gyro ball with very little investment. It matches up well vs all the tapus and most of tier 1/1.5 outside of possibly mega mence, marshadow(they both smack each other hard) and amoonguss (neither can touch the other). aegislash too but thats never used for some reason. The respect this thing commands in teambuilding and in battle too is immense, it is very easy to get to the end of a team and think: 'yeah this looks good, but gets tossed by ferro'. even in battle if you dont keep your fire type move user healthy until you can guarantee a hit on ferro youre in trouble. Good rain answer, and does better vs tr this gen than oras with the curse set. Definitely 1.5 material.
Mega Venusaur -> Tier 3
The more I use m venu the more I find it to be pretty damn good. Matches up well vs 3/4 tapus and is v nice vs rain. can just sit there and take hits for days and leech seed spam or synthesis. Shame this thing is walled by steels and hates psyspam so fits tier 3 description well imo. needs heavy support vs steels and psychics but once it has that it can be a menace. once again no fires helps venu this gen a little.
oh yeah @council dont forget about mega ttar as well! nommed 1 month ago so is kinda far back
Ferrothorn -> Tier 1.5
When the best fire type in the tier at the moment is flamethrower genesect, ferro is always going to be a strong mon. fighting types are pretty bad now too outside of marshadow. but ferro lives cc and can ohko back with gyro ball with very little investment. It matches up well vs all the tapus and most of tier 1/1.5 outside of possibly mega mence, marshadow(they both smack each other hard) and amoonguss (neither can touch the other). aegislash too but thats never used for some reason. The respect this thing commands in teambuilding and in battle too is immense, it is very easy to get to the end of a team and think: 'yeah this looks good, but gets tossed by ferro'. even in battle if you dont keep your fire type move user healthy until you can guarantee a hit on ferro youre in trouble. Good rain answer, and does better vs tr this gen than oras with the curse set. Definitely 1.5 material.
Mega Venusaur -> Tier 3
The more I use m venu the more I find it to be pretty damn good. Matches up well vs 3/4 tapus and is v nice vs rain. can just sit there and take hits for days and leech seed spam or synthesis. Shame this thing is walled by steels and hates psyspam so fits tier 3 description well imo. needs heavy support vs steels and psychics but once it has that it can be a menace. once again no fires helps venu this gen a little.
oh yeah @council dont forget about mega ttar as well! nommed 1 month ago so is kinda far back
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UR nom time from a UR kinda player
Gothitelle UR -> 4
Gothitelle has a really cool niche over Gengar in its ability to trap from Turn 1, severely locking down your opponent's options. When paired with an allied U-turn / Volt Switch user, it's able to give you a huge amount of control over the game. It lets you bring in a setup sweeper to start boosting or lure out a threat to your main damage output in order to clear the way for something of a sweep later. It's also notable in the current format as it gives bulky (slower-paced) setup a new lease of life despite Marshadow's influence: if Marshadow isn't in from the very start of the game, it keeps it out and lets you boost up. Sam's set of Heal Pulse / Recycle is extremely notable here as it lets you boost a lot even in the face of mildly damaging foes (think non-CM Fini, Celesteela or non-Curse Ferrothorn) while keeping both your booster and your trapper alive. Unlike Gengar which kinda sits there and Sludge Bombs something before you're forced to switch it out in one turn.
Persian-A UR -> 4
One of my favourite control picks of all time, the combination of Fake Out + fast Parting Shot is amazing for setup teams as it gives your allies so many turns to boost or get free Substitutes off (especially if you EV for your Subs to take -1 attacks). Even comes with a free Taunt for potential Haze users, or Quash if you're next to a Snorlax which somehow wants to go first. Fur Coat also lends it enough physical bulk to make a 50% pinch berry worth carrying, which is always a plus in my books. Other options include Snarl for more nerfs, Foul Play for more damage, and Z-Parting Shot for more fun.
Torkoal UR -> 4
Actually legitimately terrifying on TR teams, especially hard TR - not completely outclassed by Charizard since it's a Sun setter that can OHKO Heatran, and Sun-boosted Eruptions are legitimately scary for many teams. There's been a distinct drop in Aegislash usage (one of the premier Wide Guarders) so if you're not running Rain chances are Torkoal is actually "kinda scary" for your team. Also, doesn't take up the Mega slot.
Chansey UR -> 4
Serperior UR -> 4
Haha just kidding Marshadow ruined both of these Pokemon forever
Excadrill 4 -> UR
I have never seen Excadrill do anything worthwhile. If you're running it without Tyranitar it's just too slow and loses to everything, since having the Steel STAB is only relevant for maybe Tapu Lele. Easily nerfed by Intimidate and has no way to boost it back up because honestly by the time you've used Swords Dance you've already been KOd or are on your way to doing so. If you use this, with SD, in Sand, then maybe maybe maybe it works? Have not seen anyone use it well though, I'm pretty sure that even on a team with Tyranitar Landorus-T is just way better.
Pretty sure no one trusts me enough to comment on anything above Tier 2 since it's not like I use any of those things anyway :B
Gothitelle UR -> 4
Gothitelle has a really cool niche over Gengar in its ability to trap from Turn 1, severely locking down your opponent's options. When paired with an allied U-turn / Volt Switch user, it's able to give you a huge amount of control over the game. It lets you bring in a setup sweeper to start boosting or lure out a threat to your main damage output in order to clear the way for something of a sweep later. It's also notable in the current format as it gives bulky (slower-paced) setup a new lease of life despite Marshadow's influence: if Marshadow isn't in from the very start of the game, it keeps it out and lets you boost up. Sam's set of Heal Pulse / Recycle is extremely notable here as it lets you boost a lot even in the face of mildly damaging foes (think non-CM Fini, Celesteela or non-Curse Ferrothorn) while keeping both your booster and your trapper alive. Unlike Gengar which kinda sits there and Sludge Bombs something before you're forced to switch it out in one turn.
Persian-A UR -> 4
One of my favourite control picks of all time, the combination of Fake Out + fast Parting Shot is amazing for setup teams as it gives your allies so many turns to boost or get free Substitutes off (especially if you EV for your Subs to take -1 attacks). Even comes with a free Taunt for potential Haze users, or Quash if you're next to a Snorlax which somehow wants to go first. Fur Coat also lends it enough physical bulk to make a 50% pinch berry worth carrying, which is always a plus in my books. Other options include Snarl for more nerfs, Foul Play for more damage, and Z-Parting Shot for more fun.
Torkoal UR -> 4
Actually legitimately terrifying on TR teams, especially hard TR - not completely outclassed by Charizard since it's a Sun setter that can OHKO Heatran, and Sun-boosted Eruptions are legitimately scary for many teams. There's been a distinct drop in Aegislash usage (one of the premier Wide Guarders) so if you're not running Rain chances are Torkoal is actually "kinda scary" for your team. Also, doesn't take up the Mega slot.
Chansey UR -> 4
Serperior UR -> 4
Haha just kidding Marshadow ruined both of these Pokemon forever
Excadrill 4 -> UR
I have never seen Excadrill do anything worthwhile. If you're running it without Tyranitar it's just too slow and loses to everything, since having the Steel STAB is only relevant for maybe Tapu Lele. Easily nerfed by Intimidate and has no way to boost it back up because honestly by the time you've used Swords Dance you've already been KOd or are on your way to doing so. If you use this, with SD, in Sand, then maybe maybe maybe it works? Have not seen anyone use it well though, I'm pretty sure that even on a team with Tyranitar Landorus-T is just way better.
Pretty sure no one trusts me enough to comment on anything above Tier 2 since it's not like I use any of those things anyway :B
I've used SD drill in tournaments like DPL and I know qsns has built/used it as well. SD + zmove drill is really strong and can power through would be checks like Lando-t or tapu fini at +1. I support driller being tier 4.
I know its been a while since DPL but the meta shifts don't really change drills ranking imo. Marshadow is bad for it but its good vs Diancie, Garde, others.
here is my dpl replay of drill
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-568758866
Can someone provide replays of Mew and Mega Lopunny. I'd like to see what makes them so threatening. I already have a slight feeling what Mew may be capable of.
I also agree with AuraRayquaza with Ferrothorn and especially Mega Venusaur. Grass-types seem to be on the rise with Fire-types being less relevant. These Grass-types along with Amoonguss is annoyingly bulky and can amazingly stall the opponents for a long time. This is particularly possible since Rain and Fairy-types (in the case of Ferrothorn) is very dominant at the moment, and users like Yoda noticed how Mega Venusaur can wipe out an entire team once Genesect gets rid of its threats.
I also agree with AuraRayquaza with Ferrothorn and especially Mega Venusaur. Grass-types seem to be on the rise with Fire-types being less relevant. These Grass-types along with Amoonguss is annoyingly bulky and can amazingly stall the opponents for a long time. This is particularly possible since Rain and Fairy-types (in the case of Ferrothorn) is very dominant at the moment, and users like Yoda noticed how Mega Venusaur can wipe out an entire team once Genesect gets rid of its threats.
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Mega Mawile UR -> 3
Lando-T, Zapdos - Ice Punch
Ferrothorn, Genesect, Celesteela - Fire Fang
Aegislash - Knock Off
Also, steel and fairy are like decent enough stabs or w/e, you don't really need them tho, cuz you have such good coverage options. But yeah, iron head or play rough p much chunk everything, and OHKO anything they hit super effectively.
Mega Maw fits the second description well, as it pretty much always wants at least some trick room support, which really lets mega maw take advantage of its amazing defensive typing, and make it really difficult to deal with. Speaking of, the only safe switch in to this thing is like volcanion or heatran, both of which seem to be seeing less play right now. Basically, Mawile has coverage to deal with any switch in you would think of, and sucker punch if you want priority, which is p neat.
Lando-T, Zapdos - Ice Punch
Ferrothorn, Genesect, Celesteela - Fire Fang
Aegislash - Knock Off
Also, steel and fairy are like decent enough stabs or w/e, you don't really need them tho, cuz you have such good coverage options. But yeah, iron head or play rough p much chunk everything, and OHKO anything they hit super effectively.
Tier 4 -> Tier 3
Camel has proven to be a powerful TR sweeper that's at least on par with Abomasnow. Paired with Tapu Bulu, Camerupt is capable of using a terrain-boosted, Sheer Force-boosted Energy Ball (via Nature Power) that allows it to KO the bulky Water-types like Fini that would otherwise force it out.
Alternatively, you can run Substitute as the third move to punish the switches that Camerupt forces (e.g. if the opp thinks they're just going to switch in a Water-type for the next turn, or if they're going to stall out the last turn of Trick Room).
As long as you have answers to Water-types and a secondary means of negating Amoonguss Spore, Camerupt can break opposing teams under Trick Room with relatively little support.
A few quick thoughts:
Mega Lopunny 4 -> UR
Mega Lop was good in theory against marsh, but from my experience it always ended up being far too frail and weak to do anything worthwhile. No reliable fighting stab and pretty weak normal stab leave it essentially useless on the field. Also shown by usage- apart from people trying it out for a few days last month, it hasn't been seen again at all.
Hoopa-U 1 -> 1.5
With the new mega stones out and with the swagger ban, hoopa isn't nearly as much of a threat as it was before. Still an amazing offensive TR setter, but not meta-defining. Diancie, marshadow, garde, and the new KyuB set all threaten hoopa, and it no longer cleans through teams as well as it did in the past.
Snorlax 1 -> 1.5
Another pokemon hurt a ton by the swagger ban. Snorlax is still a major threat in most matches, but with knock off, marshadow, and ferro around, it doesn't have the same presence it used to have a couple months ago.
Zygarde 1.5 -> 2
Zygarde has dropped entirely off the radar with the swagger ban and release of marshadow, mega diancie, and mega garde- it now needs much more support and gives far less payoff. Thousand arrows isn't nearly as effective against the currently popular bulky offense teams, while zygarde has a hard time setting up against most hyper offense teams.
Tyranitar 1.5 -> 2
Regular tyranitar is no longer as relevant of a threat as it was before- with the release of marshadow, mdiancie, mgarde, and mttar, ttar is much easier to deal with and better rock types are now available for use.
Hydreigon 3 -> 4/UR
Haven't seen this in months. More fairies available now + viable fighting types leaves hydrei entirely irrelevant. I'd say UR, except it used to be good and idk if anyone has made a successful team with it in recent months
Scrafty 4 -> 3
Intimidate+fake out is much better now that no one uses milotic and lele is generally only seen on psyspam hyper offense. With ferro, vest kyube, and snorlax's popularity, having a bulky fighting type to blanket check these is pretty valuable on a lot of teams
I might've repeated a few noms, not entirely sure
Also I absolutely agree with L51's goth and torkoal nominations. Torkoal is seriously cool :)
Mega Lopunny 4 -> UR
Mega Lop was good in theory against marsh, but from my experience it always ended up being far too frail and weak to do anything worthwhile. No reliable fighting stab and pretty weak normal stab leave it essentially useless on the field. Also shown by usage- apart from people trying it out for a few days last month, it hasn't been seen again at all.
Hoopa-U 1 -> 1.5
With the new mega stones out and with the swagger ban, hoopa isn't nearly as much of a threat as it was before. Still an amazing offensive TR setter, but not meta-defining. Diancie, marshadow, garde, and the new KyuB set all threaten hoopa, and it no longer cleans through teams as well as it did in the past.
Snorlax 1 -> 1.5
Another pokemon hurt a ton by the swagger ban. Snorlax is still a major threat in most matches, but with knock off, marshadow, and ferro around, it doesn't have the same presence it used to have a couple months ago.
Zygarde 1.5 -> 2
Zygarde has dropped entirely off the radar with the swagger ban and release of marshadow, mega diancie, and mega garde- it now needs much more support and gives far less payoff. Thousand arrows isn't nearly as effective against the currently popular bulky offense teams, while zygarde has a hard time setting up against most hyper offense teams.
Tyranitar 1.5 -> 2
Regular tyranitar is no longer as relevant of a threat as it was before- with the release of marshadow, mdiancie, mgarde, and mttar, ttar is much easier to deal with and better rock types are now available for use.
Hydreigon 3 -> 4/UR
Haven't seen this in months. More fairies available now + viable fighting types leaves hydrei entirely irrelevant. I'd say UR, except it used to be good and idk if anyone has made a successful team with it in recent months
Scrafty 4 -> 3
Intimidate+fake out is much better now that no one uses milotic and lele is generally only seen on psyspam hyper offense. With ferro, vest kyube, and snorlax's popularity, having a bulky fighting type to blanket check these is pretty valuable on a lot of teams
I might've repeated a few noms, not entirely sure
Also I absolutely agree with L51's goth and torkoal nominations. Torkoal is seriously cool :)
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Tier 4 -> Tier 3
Camel has proven to be a powerful TR sweeper that's at least on par with Abomasnow. Paired with Tapu Bulu, Camerupt is capable of using a terrain-boosted, Sheer Force-boosted Energy Ball (via Nature Power) that allows it to KO the bulky Water-types like Fini that would otherwise force it out.
Alternatively, you can run Substitute as the third move to punish the switches that Camerupt forces (e.g. if the opp thinks they're just going to switch in a Water-type for the next turn, or if they're going to stall out the last turn of Trick Room).
As long as you have answers to Water-types and a secondary means of negating Amoonguss Spore, Camerupt can break opposing teams under Trick Room with relatively little support.
Fwiw, rupt underspeeds amoong in tr which is, imo, one if the reasons to use it over tran or possible zardy on fullroom. Also sub is a really interesting idea to capitalise off of the pressure of tr and without a single target fire move the only mon u have to worry about is wg cele of which can't touch you behind sub anyway. You also get leftovers like recovery from bulu which I find t be an almost nessesity on rupt teams to nuke fini. Rupt is a sick addition to a greatly undervalued archetype and tier 3 is perfecto for it.
Mega Tyranitar UR -> 2
Ninetales-A 3 -> 4
Mega Scizor UR -> 3
Mega Diancie UR -> 1.5
Hydreigon 3 -> 4
Porygon-Z 4 -> 3
Snorlax 1 -> 1.5
Ferrothorn 2 -> 1.5
Mega Venusaur UR -> 3
Gothitelle UR -> 4
Persian-A UR -> 4
Torkoal UR -> 4
Excadrill 4 -> UR
Changes:
Mega Tyranitar moves from UR to Tier 3
Ninetales-A moves from Tier 3 to 4
Mega Scizor moves from UR to Tier 4
Mega Diancie moves from UR to Tier 1.5
Hydreigon moves from Tier 3 to 4
Porygon-Z moves from Tier 4 to 3
Snorlax moves from Tier 1 to 1.5
Mega Venusaur moves from UR to Tier 3
kamikaze: 3 is fine for now. 2 seems way too steep. Rock is a fantastic offensive typing now and it can actually outspeeds after a DD unlike regular Ttar.
MajorBowman: No. 3 at best, but would probably even say 4 right now. Super underwhelming until it gets a DD up, and doesn’t have very many opportunities to do so in this meta
Memoric: 3 is fine, it’s respectable and does things that ordinary tar can’t do
miltankmilk: I’d just put this guy at 3, powerful mon whos very bulky and can clean late game with skillful rock slide but its a big jump to tier 2 with not a lot of people actually using it.
qsns: I prefer 3. I’ve ran it and it’s pretty ok, but doesn’t have a power level comparable to anything in 2 considering the mega slot demand.
shaian: 4. It runs one set, DDTar, better than regular Tyranitar due to the increased base speed, however it struggles with finding good opportunities to do so in this meta. It does pose pressure on Trick Room compositions with its fantastic offensive typing and bulk, though regular Tyranitar does that as well and can secure KOs on setters with greater ease and flexibility due to being able to use items, such as Z Crystals, as needed to fill in team gaps. I could see Mega TTar being tier 3 if the DD set picks up more, though as of now there isn’t enough of a sample size for that.
MajorBowman: No. 3 at best, but would probably even say 4 right now. Super underwhelming until it gets a DD up, and doesn’t have very many opportunities to do so in this meta
Memoric: 3 is fine, it’s respectable and does things that ordinary tar can’t do
miltankmilk: I’d just put this guy at 3, powerful mon whos very bulky and can clean late game with skillful rock slide but its a big jump to tier 2 with not a lot of people actually using it.
qsns: I prefer 3. I’ve ran it and it’s pretty ok, but doesn’t have a power level comparable to anything in 2 considering the mega slot demand.
shaian: 4. It runs one set, DDTar, better than regular Tyranitar due to the increased base speed, however it struggles with finding good opportunities to do so in this meta. It does pose pressure on Trick Room compositions with its fantastic offensive typing and bulk, though regular Tyranitar does that as well and can secure KOs on setters with greater ease and flexibility due to being able to use items, such as Z Crystals, as needed to fill in team gaps. I could see Mega TTar being tier 3 if the DD set picks up more, though as of now there isn’t enough of a sample size for that.
kamikaze: it kinda died off after the first few months of SM so yea
MajorBowman: YES FINALLY DEAR GOD THIS THING SUCKS
Memoric: it blows
miltankmilk: Yes
qsns: yea it kinda blows
shaian: fuck off jake ninetales-a is top 5 pokemon designs. it is tier 4 though aurora veil is busted tho :(
MajorBowman: YES FINALLY DEAR GOD THIS THING SUCKS
Memoric: it blows
miltankmilk: Yes
qsns: yea it kinda blows
shaian: fuck off jake ninetales-a is top 5 pokemon designs. it is tier 4 though aurora veil is busted tho :(
kamikaze: 4. Its difficult deciding its moveset though. It wants roost for the longevity, SD for setup, Protect, and at least 2 attacks between BP, Bug Bite, and Knock Off but generally has some pretty big issues depending on what is left is out
MajorBowman: 4. Not a big fan of this thing in DOU, just feels like it’s too weak to accomplish anything
Memoric: 4, i used it and it’s actually really litty. Requires some more help and can be quite a dud though, but it’s enough of a good threat to be 4
miltankmilk: Tier 4, like mega ttar its something cool that not a lot of people have really used so just Tier 4 for now.
qsns: 4. Good Pokemon esp considering Diancie’s introduction but it requires so much support that it usually isn’t worth it.
shaian: Tier 4. In application it seems to be a good Pokemon, but at the same time I find it to be a little unwieldy. I often find myself wanting SD, Roost and Knock Off, so theres that little bit of 4MSS, and it has an overstated degree of bulk that doesn’t quite live up to expectation. That being said, it is a very powerful option that should be explored a bit more, especially given the inclusions of Mega Diancie and Mega Gardevoir into the metagame.
MajorBowman: 4. Not a big fan of this thing in DOU, just feels like it’s too weak to accomplish anything
Memoric: 4, i used it and it’s actually really litty. Requires some more help and can be quite a dud though, but it’s enough of a good threat to be 4
miltankmilk: Tier 4, like mega ttar its something cool that not a lot of people have really used so just Tier 4 for now.
qsns: 4. Good Pokemon esp considering Diancie’s introduction but it requires so much support that it usually isn’t worth it.
shaian: Tier 4. In application it seems to be a good Pokemon, but at the same time I find it to be a little unwieldy. I often find myself wanting SD, Roost and Knock Off, so theres that little bit of 4MSS, and it has an overstated degree of bulk that doesn’t quite live up to expectation. That being said, it is a very powerful option that should be explored a bit more, especially given the inclusions of Mega Diancie and Mega Gardevoir into the metagame.
kamikaze: 1.5. Rock is a fantastic offensive type at the moment and the def boost buff is a pain.
MajorBowman: Yeah sure, Diancie is super solid with the Diamond Storm and mega speed buffs. Don’t think it’s Tier 1 quality yet but definitely agree with 1.5.
Memoric: i think 2 tbh, yeah it’s strong but it can also get dominated more than id like tbh considering its frailty and lack of actual ability to get clean kills from full + considering it’s new i’d prefer to err on the side of caution. I think it could be 1.5 but yeah
miltankmilk: Yes shoutouts diamond storm
qsns: diamond storm’s a bitch 1.5
shaian: 1.5. The Diamond Storm buffs and the mega speed mechanic change both really help Diancie become a powerful offensive presence, though I find it to be more threatening mid-to-late game and that it requires more support in the teambuilder than before. That being said, it seems doubtful that it will become a tier 1 since there are quite a few more counters to Mega Diancie than before.
MajorBowman: Yeah sure, Diancie is super solid with the Diamond Storm and mega speed buffs. Don’t think it’s Tier 1 quality yet but definitely agree with 1.5.
Memoric: i think 2 tbh, yeah it’s strong but it can also get dominated more than id like tbh considering its frailty and lack of actual ability to get clean kills from full + considering it’s new i’d prefer to err on the side of caution. I think it could be 1.5 but yeah
miltankmilk: Yes shoutouts diamond storm
qsns: diamond storm’s a bitch 1.5
shaian: 1.5. The Diamond Storm buffs and the mega speed mechanic change both really help Diancie become a powerful offensive presence, though I find it to be more threatening mid-to-late game and that it requires more support in the teambuilder than before. That being said, it seems doubtful that it will become a tier 1 since there are quite a few more counters to Mega Diancie than before.
kamikaze: rip dragon
MajorBowman: yeah but can we just make it UR instead
Memoric: it’s trash now lul
miltankmilk: Yes, haven’t seen this used in a long time, too many fairies now.
qsns: this thing has always been absolute trash
shaian: yeah lol.
MajorBowman: yeah but can we just make it UR instead
Memoric: it’s trash now lul
miltankmilk: Yes, haven’t seen this used in a long time, too many fairies now.
qsns: this thing has always been absolute trash
shaian: yeah lol.
kamikaze: Yes its absurdly threatening on a level much more than most of Tier 4. There also isnt much opportunity cost either associated with the common support partners it has, namely Amoongus and Mew
MajorBowman: No. It’s a fun one trick pony but the set is often telegraphed from team preview and needs a good amount of support to succeed.
Memoric: Yes, despite being only capable of doing one thing, it’s something that can threaten game and is something that’s respected in-game.
miltankmilk: Yeah PZ is really strong and something you really have to think about in building now, 3 is a better fit for it.
qsns: Just because it’s a one trick pony doesn’t mean it’s not worth a raise. It’s so scary from preview and can put in so much work even if the opponent dedicates a ton of resources to shutting it down.
shaian: Yes, because even though I agree with MajorBowmans reasoning I can’t deny that the results of PZ compositions do in fact backup this nomination. Porygon-Z :sogood:
MajorBowman: No. It’s a fun one trick pony but the set is often telegraphed from team preview and needs a good amount of support to succeed.
Memoric: Yes, despite being only capable of doing one thing, it’s something that can threaten game and is something that’s respected in-game.
miltankmilk: Yeah PZ is really strong and something you really have to think about in building now, 3 is a better fit for it.
qsns: Just because it’s a one trick pony doesn’t mean it’s not worth a raise. It’s so scary from preview and can put in so much work even if the opponent dedicates a ton of resources to shutting it down.
shaian: Yes, because even though I agree with MajorBowmans reasoning I can’t deny that the results of PZ compositions do in fact backup this nomination. Porygon-Z :sogood:
kamikaze: Yes
MajorBowman: Yes, gained a new check with Marshadow’s release so its usage has dropped pretty wildly. Still good but just not as strong as before
Memoric: Yeah, meta adjusted + Marsh came lul
miltankmilk: Yeah lots more knock off and Marshadow gives him the D, good run in tier 1 lax u_u
qsns: we adapted to it as a tier since the last update. 1.5
shaian: Yes. I’m hesitant to drop Snorlax down simply due to the addition of Marshadow, but I do think that the Swagger ban also hurt the viability of Snorlax as well since it now has to be more patient in initiating a sweep than it had before.
MajorBowman: Yes, gained a new check with Marshadow’s release so its usage has dropped pretty wildly. Still good but just not as strong as before
Memoric: Yeah, meta adjusted + Marsh came lul
miltankmilk: Yeah lots more knock off and Marshadow gives him the D, good run in tier 1 lax u_u
qsns: we adapted to it as a tier since the last update. 1.5
shaian: Yes. I’m hesitant to drop Snorlax down simply due to the addition of Marshadow, but I do think that the Swagger ban also hurt the viability of Snorlax as well since it now has to be more patient in initiating a sweep than it had before.
kamikaze: Abstain
MajorBowman: No, great pick right now but still a little too niche for 1.5
Memoric: No, its effectiveness is more of a matchup thing really and it can end up getting boned in some games :{|}
miltankmilk: No, Ferro is really strong in the current meta but 1.5 is a bit too high for a pokemon thats pretty matchup dependent.
qsns: abstain
shaian: No, it’s a matchup dependent that has a great, but niche, role. It also has a terribly bland design so if team aesthetics is your thing it’s a terrible choice.
MajorBowman: No, great pick right now but still a little too niche for 1.5
Memoric: No, its effectiveness is more of a matchup thing really and it can end up getting boned in some games :{|}
miltankmilk: No, Ferro is really strong in the current meta but 1.5 is a bit too high for a pokemon thats pretty matchup dependent.
qsns: abstain
shaian: No, it’s a matchup dependent that has a great, but niche, role. It also has a terribly bland design so if team aesthetics is your thing it’s a terrible choice.
kamikaze: Abstain
MajorBowman: Yes. Pretty solid fatmon in the current meta and checks some of the newer stuff pretty well.
Memoric: no way, while it’s pretty fat and can wall some key threats, it doesn’t do enough of what you’d want for the mega slot imo and it just sits there being an ass, can be exploited too
miltankmilk: Yeah, mega venu is THICC and is good vs shit like Rain, Diancie and just sitting around and being fat like Ferrothorn.
qsns: Abstain. I’d like to see it more in action than what I have so far before coming to a decision on this.
shaian: Yes, I can eve see it going up to 2 in the future since it’s a hard counter to ¾ Tapus, excellent vs TTar, Rain, and is okay vs certain setup compositions and Trick Room, though it does have a hard time versus Psyspam and Mega Salamence.
MajorBowman: Yes. Pretty solid fatmon in the current meta and checks some of the newer stuff pretty well.
Memoric: no way, while it’s pretty fat and can wall some key threats, it doesn’t do enough of what you’d want for the mega slot imo and it just sits there being an ass, can be exploited too
miltankmilk: Yeah, mega venu is THICC and is good vs shit like Rain, Diancie and just sitting around and being fat like Ferrothorn.
qsns: Abstain. I’d like to see it more in action than what I have so far before coming to a decision on this.
shaian: Yes, I can eve see it going up to 2 in the future since it’s a hard counter to ¾ Tapus, excellent vs TTar, Rain, and is okay vs certain setup compositions and Trick Room, though it does have a hard time versus Psyspam and Mega Salamence.
kamikaze: Yes. Shadow Tag and Heal Pulse is pretty fantastic and that alone has allowed this mon to do some nice things this gen on a few teams.
MajorBowman: Yes, shadow tag is busted
Memoric: ?
miltankmilk: No, why would you use gothitelle this mon sucks. We thinned out tier 4 for a reason.
qsns: abstain
shaian: Abstain. I don’t think I’ve ever seen this Pokemon used in SM?
MajorBowman: Yes, shadow tag is busted
Memoric: ?
miltankmilk: No, why would you use gothitelle this mon sucks. We thinned out tier 4 for a reason.
qsns: abstain
shaian: Abstain. I don’t think I’ve ever seen this Pokemon used in SM?
kamikaze: No. Havent seen it do much of anything and we want to make Tier 4 more restrictive than it was before
MajorBowman: No, doesn’t accomplish anything while it’s on the field
Memoric: no :{|}
miltankmilk: We thinned out Tier 4 for a reason, Fake out and Parting shot without doing damage isn’t enough to be ranked imo.
Qsns: same @ milk
shaian: No. I was never a fan of playing 5-on-6, it seems unfair.
MajorBowman: No, doesn’t accomplish anything while it’s on the field
Memoric: no :{|}
miltankmilk: We thinned out Tier 4 for a reason, Fake out and Parting shot without doing damage isn’t enough to be ranked imo.
Qsns: same @ milk
shaian: No. I was never a fan of playing 5-on-6, it seems unfair.
kamikaze: Abstain
MajorBowman: Same @ milk
Memoric: L
miltankmilk: No Charizard is a thing and Tier 4 doesn’t need to be cluttered
qsns: same @ milk
shaian: In Pokemon: Destiny Deoxys Ash sent out Pikachu and Torkoal against Blaziken and Blastoise. Experts found that decision to be poor and misguided.
MajorBowman: Same @ milk
Memoric: L
miltankmilk: No Charizard is a thing and Tier 4 doesn’t need to be cluttered
qsns: same @ milk
shaian: In Pokemon: Destiny Deoxys Ash sent out Pikachu and Torkoal against Blaziken and Blastoise. Experts found that decision to be poor and misguided.
kamikaze: Abstain
MajorBowman: No, still has enough of a niche with Ttar to warrant being ranked imo. Not a splashable mon at all but still worth using in the right place
Memoric: No, Exca can carry some games and definitely has effectiveness.
miltankmilk: No! Read my post on driller!
qsns: nah, driller is pretty solid. Sd is terrifying/probably its best set and I don’t get where this notion that 3 atks isn’t scary because dealing with the speed after Lando-T gets weakened (which is what your team should be designed around) is a pain in the ass.
shaian: No, read miltankmilks post on driller! (fuck sam, i had to write my own votes for the first time in months)
MajorBowman: No, still has enough of a niche with Ttar to warrant being ranked imo. Not a splashable mon at all but still worth using in the right place
Memoric: No, Exca can carry some games and definitely has effectiveness.
miltankmilk: No! Read my post on driller!
qsns: nah, driller is pretty solid. Sd is terrifying/probably its best set and I don’t get where this notion that 3 atks isn’t scary because dealing with the speed after Lando-T gets weakened (which is what your team should be designed around) is a pain in the ass.
shaian: No, read miltankmilks post on driller! (fuck sam, i had to write my own votes for the first time in months)
Changes:
Mega Tyranitar moves from UR to Tier 3
Ninetales-A moves from Tier 3 to 4
Mega Scizor moves from UR to Tier 4
Mega Diancie moves from UR to Tier 1.5
Hydreigon moves from Tier 3 to 4
Porygon-Z moves from Tier 4 to 3
Snorlax moves from Tier 1 to 1.5
Mega Venusaur moves from UR to Tier 3
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Kingdra can be used with either Pelipper or Politoed, so its usage is not inherently tied to the required usage of Pelipper. In addition, Kingdra is a far more threatening Pokemon than Pelipper, so even if Kingdra necessitated Pelipper usage because Politoed was banned for some reason, it does far more to benefit a team and thus deserves to be ranked higher.
move Gengar down to 1.5
While I do believe that Gengar can be very good and excel in certain compositions or teamstyles, I don't believe it is a metagame defining force. It's not as splashable or common as Landorus-T or Tapu Fini are (which appear on like every other taem), nor is it as strong enough on its own to always make an impact every game. There are definitely matchups in which Gengar is deadweight and I feel like playstyles that shut down Gengar are too common right now to keep it in 1.
Charizard-Y down to 3
This Pokemon is pretty blegh. It has a poor matchup against Rain teams, Salamence teams, and Diancie teams. There are little favourable matchups for Zard actually, as it'll get popped by a Landorus, Koko, Deoxys, Diancie, Ttar, Deo-A, etc. Zard has an awkward speed tier, not quite fast enough to always get attacks off and not quite slow enough to be a comfortable fit in Trick Room. This often makes Zard kind of awkward to build around, as I'd rather have a Mega-Camerupt on fullroom, which is more consistent and can actually pop Fini consistently with Nature Power (alongside a Bulu, obviously), or a Heatran, which does much better in the Psyspam matchup than Zard does.
Shaymin-Sky down to 3
I can't remember the last time I've actually seen this thing but Grass attacks are pretty bad. Tapu Koko gets past Shaymin-Sky with ease, Zapdos just tailwinds on it, Marshadow beats it with chip etc. Also with the increasing usage of Stealth Rock, its Sash becomes less meaningful, and it gets much easier to actually play around Skymin. Oh, and it's a Grass-type that doesn't even help in the Rain matchup, lol.
Terrakion down to 4
This thing is just bad, as there is basically never a reason to run it. If you need a Fighting-type you're much better off using Marshadow, and if you want a Rock-type you're better off running Tyranitar or Diancie. It's too easily beaten by Rain, Psyspam, Salamence, Diancie, and basically every other archetype ever to justify running this.
Clefairy to 4
The second best redirector after Amoonguss. While it isn't as bulky or strong utility-wise as Amoonguss, Friend Guard definitely helps set-up heavy compositions to excel. It becomes a lot easier for Salamence or Zygarde to just Dragon Dance up with a redirector w/ the Friend Guard. It just hasn't seen a lot of tournament usage yet, but I believe that might change once people pick up on how cool this thing actually is.
While I do believe that Gengar can be very good and excel in certain compositions or teamstyles, I don't believe it is a metagame defining force. It's not as splashable or common as Landorus-T or Tapu Fini are (which appear on like every other taem), nor is it as strong enough on its own to always make an impact every game. There are definitely matchups in which Gengar is deadweight and I feel like playstyles that shut down Gengar are too common right now to keep it in 1.
Charizard-Y down to 3
This Pokemon is pretty blegh. It has a poor matchup against Rain teams, Salamence teams, and Diancie teams. There are little favourable matchups for Zard actually, as it'll get popped by a Landorus, Koko, Deoxys, Diancie, Ttar, Deo-A, etc. Zard has an awkward speed tier, not quite fast enough to always get attacks off and not quite slow enough to be a comfortable fit in Trick Room. This often makes Zard kind of awkward to build around, as I'd rather have a Mega-Camerupt on fullroom, which is more consistent and can actually pop Fini consistently with Nature Power (alongside a Bulu, obviously), or a Heatran, which does much better in the Psyspam matchup than Zard does.
Shaymin-Sky down to 3
I can't remember the last time I've actually seen this thing but Grass attacks are pretty bad. Tapu Koko gets past Shaymin-Sky with ease, Zapdos just tailwinds on it, Marshadow beats it with chip etc. Also with the increasing usage of Stealth Rock, its Sash becomes less meaningful, and it gets much easier to actually play around Skymin. Oh, and it's a Grass-type that doesn't even help in the Rain matchup, lol.
Terrakion down to 4
This thing is just bad, as there is basically never a reason to run it. If you need a Fighting-type you're much better off using Marshadow, and if you want a Rock-type you're better off running Tyranitar or Diancie. It's too easily beaten by Rain, Psyspam, Salamence, Diancie, and basically every other archetype ever to justify running this.
Clefairy to 4
The second best redirector after Amoonguss. While it isn't as bulky or strong utility-wise as Amoonguss, Friend Guard definitely helps set-up heavy compositions to excel. It becomes a lot easier for Salamence or Zygarde to just Dragon Dance up with a redirector w/ the Friend Guard. It just hasn't seen a lot of tournament usage yet, but I believe that might change once people pick up on how cool this thing actually is.
1.5 Diancie is way too high honestly. For me it feels like a delicate mon with not enough payoff to justify the extra support you need to give it to make it preform in the current meta. 350 is a meh speed tier especially when u get 2hkod or koed by almost everything and don't do much back to quite a few bulky comps. It's ok vs some Mence and Chadizard teams but I just don't feel like it's anywhere near the offensive monster it was in oras, especially when sm teams are well built to deal with the fairy rampage that is this meta and I don't feel like Diancie brings much to advance it. 2 seems more suitable
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If I had $10 for every VR post Level 51 made before responding to my snake scheduling VM I'd have $10
Mimikyu UR -> Tier 4
Most reliable Trick Room setter and thats it. Benfefiting ally since its always double targeted most of the times. It offensive preserence isnt total 0 considering it can OHKO Tapu Lele, can use Destiny Bond instead for alternative. See above image and you'll realise something hit shay's head between that 50 minutes, therefore it should stay at 4
Volcarona Tier 3 -> Tier 4
When rain is dominating the meta Fire-types always a bad typing. Also lose to ubiquitous Lnadorus-T, Mega Salamence, Mega Diancie, Heatran, and Tapu Fini. Marshadow is now exists and will steal those Quiver boosts. Very frail as a redirector compared to Amoonguss. Personally never considered using this for Ferrothorn check and Im always forgot this mon exists
Zygarde Tier 1.5 -> Tier 2
Marshadow and Mega Gardevoir releases hurt this mon so badly. Swagger ban remove the excess to ignore Intimidate drops. The relatively new Kyurem-B sets (AV) isnt even OHKOed by +6 Thousand Arrows make this thing even worse. Always have a hard times to set-up against hyper offense but could still work on heavily set-up oriented teams
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Volcarona Tier 3 -> Tier 4
When rain is dominating the meta Fire-types always a bad typing. Also lose to ubiquitous Lnadorus-T, Mega Salamence, Mega Diancie, Heatran, and Tapu Fini. Marshadow is now exists and will steal those Quiver boosts. Very frail as a redirector compared to Amoonguss. Personally never considered using this for Ferrothorn check and Im always forgot this mon exists
Zygarde Tier 1.5 -> Tier 2
Marshadow and Mega Gardevoir releases hurt this mon so badly. Swagger ban remove the excess to ignore Intimidate drops. The relatively new Kyurem-B sets (AV) isnt even OHKOed by +6 Thousand Arrows make this thing even worse. Always have a hard times to set-up against hyper offense but could still work on heavily set-up oriented teams
Im going to have to disagree heavily with zygarde being nommed down. It has good enough bulk to get at least one boosts, and usually thats all it needs. +1 speed with a STAB spread thats got no immunities is huge and can often tear holes in teams. If you can keep the +1 attack too even better. Forcing your opp to cycle intimidate often leads to more boosts.
Also its probs best vs hyper offense, where not only do you outspeed everything, but the opposing team cant take as many hits too.
Ngl i disagree with volcarona going down too, but can understand this more. Its an interesting case of volcaronas hardest checks being less effective now. Heatran is not good, diancie struggles vs rain. Fini is still good but if you do t have fini answers your teams bad anyway. Often stuff just drops to +1 inferno overdrive and ferro killers are always useful. Also outspeeds m pert and ludi at +1 even in rain.
Heres a nom:
Ludicolo to Tier 3
I actually think its a better pick for rain teams than kingdra atm, as you dont lose very much power (95 for kingdra compared to 90 for ludi) or coverage while gaining a much better matchup vs fini, which is important. Not weak to fairy, even has fake out if youre about that. I think 3 is ok for it for these reasons. Like i wouldnt run it on rain psyspam because you lose out on spread but on any other rain team i think its a better pick
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