i wouldnt run it on rain psyspam because rain psyspam is an awful archetype that is complete ass to play and never lets you touch the switch button
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Resource SM Doubles OU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter kamikaze
- Start date
- Status
I would like to nominate Torkoal UR -> 4. I have been mostly using Torkoal for my Doubles OU Ladder and my current ranking is 1650s.
Torkoal has a few things going for it.
1. 20 Speed. It is absolutely the fastest Lv.100 Pokemon in Trick Toom.
2. Sun boosted Eruption is absolutely devastating, especially when boosted Helping Hand or Instruct.
3. Great coverage. Fire Move, Earth Power, Solar Beam, and some Hidden Power will deal substantial damage to anything except Sand and Rain setters.
4. 200 BP Inferno Overdrive under the sun. OHKO most things neutrally. Targets that don't usually run Protect like Zapdos are in for a hard time.
5. Cresselia is a fantastic partner for it. Skill Swap, Helping Hand, and Trick Room paves the way for Torkoal's success.
Torkoal has a few things going for it.
1. 20 Speed. It is absolutely the fastest Lv.100 Pokemon in Trick Toom.
2. Sun boosted Eruption is absolutely devastating, especially when boosted Helping Hand or Instruct.
3. Great coverage. Fire Move, Earth Power, Solar Beam, and some Hidden Power will deal substantial damage to anything except Sand and Rain setters.
4. 200 BP Inferno Overdrive under the sun. OHKO most things neutrally. Targets that don't usually run Protect like Zapdos are in for a hard time.
5. Cresselia is a fantastic partner for it. Skill Swap, Helping Hand, and Trick Room paves the way for Torkoal's success.
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Supporting this nom. I topped the ladder at over 1900 Elo with Torkoal and have actually used it to good success on numerous teams. I prefer Assault Vest but Firium Z works too. Imo it's main niche is to underspeed and check Amoonguss on TR Bulu builds that don't have the luxury of Misty/Electric Terrain. It's also a decent breaker under TR, a weather control, and (if running AV) a really bulky pivot. It has mediocre stats but fills a lot of niches in one slot to compensate for that. Pairs especially well with Weakness Policy Diancie and Tapu Bulu
Since the suspect I've had a little bit of buyer's remorse on my 'No Ban' vote after seeing some of the options this pokemon can run. It has several incredibly threatening options that can run through so much of the metagame. LO sets can really shit on offensive archetypes with Sneak/Thief/CC while Z move can just collect a kill vs bulkier teams. After seeing Biosci whip out feint Marshadow that showed even more utility on this pokemon on teams where shadow sneak isn't necessary. HP ice is something that I've used on a few teams to some success and I definitely think its a viable option to beat some of its checks. Sash sets have started to pop up as a more foolproof way to stop a setup sweeper while goggles could accomplish the same goal (I used goggles HP ice vs Level 51 in Snake so im not just making sets up). Marsh hits incredibly hard, has a plethora of options that let it break through checks and limit defensive counterplay and is also very difficult to revenge kill or even stifle for a turn with Fake Out due to its ghost-fighting typing. Move dis boy up to tier 1.
more like move dis boy up to dubers
damn whyd u nom it i wanted ninetales being goat to be a secret :(
seriously this mon is stupid good lol a lot of the counterarguments are that it puts u at a 5v6. ??? its not 5v6 when ur team is essentially doubled, more like 10v6. Great for set up spam, suicide leads are fun with it like staraptor/victin and give you a criminal amount of momentum that is almost impossible to counterplay at times, weather isn't hard to counterplay at all if you build well with it. Also tales isn't entirely useless bar veil; encore, ice stab and disable are all cool usable moves. I'm personally of the opinion veil is kinda busted but baby steps lets see if it catches on.
replays have been deleted shame but here's a recent one of miyoka using tales, where no matter how good demantoid played he basically had no counterplay to the damn thing other than like late game flinches http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-636183662
Kyurem-B to Tier 1.5 (should be 1 tbh)
God this thing is so broken. Unbelievable bulk especially with an AV. like it literally takes 40 from some super effective hits. dont even bother attacking it on the special side. but not only does it have this stupid bulk it hits hard af too with super coverage. very splashable on teams atm because its an immense rain check and is never deadweight because if you really have nothing to do just throw off a few icy winds. The LO set is nowhere near as good but that hits even harder lol. it just checks so much and even stuff like zard y because its so bulky. this really should be tier 1 because its so good atm but i guess ill say 1.5.
I concur. Bulk and coverage are so good.
Kyurem-B to Tier 1.5 (should be 1 tbh)
God this thing is so broken. Unbelievable bulk especially with an AV. like it literally takes 40 from some super effective hits. dont even bother attacking it on the special side. but not only does it have this stupid bulk it hits hard af too with super coverage. very splashable on teams atm because its an immense rain check and is never deadweight because if you really have nothing to do just throw off a few icy winds. The LO set is nowhere near as good but that hits even harder lol. it just checks so much and even stuff like zard y because its so bulky. this really should be tier 1 because its so good atm but i guess ill say 1.5.
Ferrothorn > Tier 1.5
should be tier 1 but baby steps
Ferrothorn loves the current metagame when the best fire type in the tier is actually just Genesect. This thing is so insanely bulky that it can take nearly any hit from an attacker then leech seed them back and then set up all over them. Has a really good matchup against rain, sand, trick room with the curse set. You can run many different sets and spreads depending on what you want it to be able to do such on your team. It can set rocks as well which is not really expected and doubles isn't truly prepared to deal with effectively. Ferrothorn can be tossed onto a wide variety of teams and will nearly always pull its worth.
I have some replays from my most recent seasonals match where ferrothorn single handly won me the first game and did a ton of work in the second.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-638641805
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-638651630
Mega-Gengar > 1.5
maybe even tier 2
Short and simple Mega-Gengar does not have the same effect on the metagame that it maybe once did. Yes, its ability is crazy but it loses to a lot of strong Pokemon in the megatame right now like Landorus or Zygarde if its not packing hp ice and if either of those mons are paired with a Ninetails-A it loses to them anyway. Tapu Lele and Psyspam completely shut destroy this thing as well making it nearly useless in the matchup. It doesn't really do well against rain either with megaswamp outspeeding and destroying it as well. Mega Tyranitar has been seeing a comeback and Gengar doesn't have any way to beat it outside of running Focus Blast which it doesn't want to do. It doesn't really have a spot in the metagame right now isn't worth a mega slot and doesn't belong in Tier 1 anymore.
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Massive VR Update
Mega Mawile UR -> 3
Mega Camerupt 4 -> 3
Mega Lopunny 4 -> UR
Hoopa-U 1 -> 1.5
Zygarde 1.5 -> 2
Tyranitar 1.5 -> 2
Hydreigon 4 -> UR
Scrafty 4 -> 3
Mega Gengar 1 -> 1.5
Charizard-Y 2 -> 3
Shaymin-Sky 2 -> 3
Terrakion 3 -> 4
Clefairy UR -> 4
Mega Diancie 1.5 -> 2
Mimikyu UR -> 4
Volcarona 3 -> 4
Ludicolo 4 -> 3
Torkoal UR -> 4
Marshadow 1.5 -> 1
Kyurem-Black 2-> 1.5
Changes:
Mega Lopunny 4 -> UR
Hoopa-U 1 -> 1.5
Zygarde 1.5 -> 2
Hydreigon 4 -> UR
Mega Gengar 1 -> 1.5
Shaymin-Sky 2 -> 4
Terrakion 3 -> 4
Mimikyu is temporarily blacklisted from being nommed
Volcarona 3 -> 4
Torkoal UR -> 4
Marshadow 1.5 -> 1
Kyurem-Black 2-> 1.5
Mega Mawile UR -> 3
kamikaze: UR for now still. In theory it prob works with heatran and zard dropping in usage but volcanion, ferro, and rain are picking up a lot which will threaten it. I also have yet to see it do much in tournament games.
MajorBowman: UR. Too weak to intimidate and literally every fire and steel type, which most teams have
Memoric: this is a pokemon?
miltankmilk: Gonna go with UR. I’ve never actually seen this mon do anything, doesnt really have the moveslots to threaten the relevant steels although if someone proves me wrong and uses it then i’ll change my vote.
qsns: UR, there are more threatening TR megas and it’s really mediocre outside of it.
shaian: 4. only because of poor matchups vs steels and lando-t but really its a good mon that could probably be 3 or 3.5 if we ever decide to make this list more specialized and annoying to read. its a cutie too :3
MajorBowman: UR. Too weak to intimidate and literally every fire and steel type, which most teams have
Memoric: this is a pokemon?
miltankmilk: Gonna go with UR. I’ve never actually seen this mon do anything, doesnt really have the moveslots to threaten the relevant steels although if someone proves me wrong and uses it then i’ll change my vote.
qsns: UR, there are more threatening TR megas and it’s really mediocre outside of it.
shaian: 4. only because of poor matchups vs steels and lando-t but really its a good mon that could probably be 3 or 3.5 if we ever decide to make this list more specialized and annoying to read. its a cutie too :3
kamikaze: Gonna keep 4 for now. Nature Power with Bulu is like a cheeky way for it to handle fini but its not entirely consistent. And after seeing so many camerupt teams get destroyed by mega mence in snake I am not feeling this rise. Fini and mence are way too common atm and preventing it from abusing its limited TR turns. Sub volcanion seeing more use again also gives a lot of trouble to both it and its partners as well because Water Fire coverage naturally dismantles most TR comps just like it did last gen.
MajorBowman: Remain 4. Camel is super overhyped, decent mega for full TR but super bad outside of TR and doesn’t take hits very well. Poor showing in snake phase 1 isn’t helping its case either
Memoric: remain in 4, it’s cute but not it’s not really good enough to rise any. The records should show
miltankmilk: Nah, camel just went 1-3 in 4 games in snake because its incredibly reliant on trick room. Nature power is cool but the number of times you can actually use it without burning into protect or the terrain getting changed are low. Its strong as hell but its kinda tough to get going.
Qsns: Yes, Nature Power really gave it a lot more tricks in terms of coverage and being able to pressure fat Fini builds. It gets OHKOs with hilariously strong spread moves and though it does take a lot of support, it can usually capitalize on it well.
shaian: Stay tier 4. Poor defensive typing and stats and general inflexibility on team compositions overshadow its excellent offensive presence.
MajorBowman: Remain 4. Camel is super overhyped, decent mega for full TR but super bad outside of TR and doesn’t take hits very well. Poor showing in snake phase 1 isn’t helping its case either
Memoric: remain in 4, it’s cute but not it’s not really good enough to rise any. The records should show
miltankmilk: Nah, camel just went 1-3 in 4 games in snake because its incredibly reliant on trick room. Nature power is cool but the number of times you can actually use it without burning into protect or the terrain getting changed are low. Its strong as hell but its kinda tough to get going.
Qsns: Yes, Nature Power really gave it a lot more tricks in terms of coverage and being able to pressure fat Fini builds. It gets OHKOs with hilariously strong spread moves and though it does take a lot of support, it can usually capitalize on it well.
shaian: Stay tier 4. Poor defensive typing and stats and general inflexibility on team compositions overshadow its excellent offensive presence.
kamikaze: This shouldnt have been ranked.
MajorBowman: Yeah that’s fine, usage is basically 0
Memoric: fine
miltankmilk: Yeah I havent actually seen this used since it was released. Has some cool options and a decent speed tier but nobody really uses it.
qsns: yea ok its trash :/
shaian: only marilli uses it and thats for waifu reasons to UR
MajorBowman: Yeah that’s fine, usage is basically 0
Memoric: fine
miltankmilk: Yeah I havent actually seen this used since it was released. Has some cool options and a decent speed tier but nobody really uses it.
qsns: yea ok its trash :/
shaian: only marilli uses it and thats for waifu reasons to UR
kamikaze: Yes. Its usage started to drop a lot since Marshadow release I feel. Its still very strong but not Tier 1 busted. TR has also been having an extremely hard time in the current meta with rain preventing safe setup, and mega mence and tapu fini dunking on a lot of common TR comps. Checkmater is the hero Trick Room needs right now, but not the one it deserves.
MajorBowman: Yes, don’t remember if I voted it up to 1 or not but I agree with milk that it shouldn’t have ever been there. It’s a great mon and I would never drop it below 1.5, but I think it has one too many flaws to be absolutely top tier
Memoric: no, marsh aka dominant physical attacker gives it a probably unstoppable demise + considering the other factors that have always held it to be fringe 1.
miltankmilk: Yes it never should have been tier 1. Its a really great mon but its easily intimidated and Hole doesn’t hit that hard. Tapus are everywhere and z marsh gives it the D.
qsns: No, it’s extremely threatening and still a hard hitting breaker that provides its own speed control. I don’t think people are giving nearly enough respect to the less standard but still terrifying sets such as max spa w/ Lele support and Scarf.
shaian: Abstain, it’s not going to be lower than 1.5 for a while unless there are radical shifts in the metagame, but it’s place in 1 seems contentious due to the multitude of checks to the conventional Trick Room set, meaning that teams are not hard pressed to deal with it. Though as qsns said, the relative lack of exploration with Hoopa-U means that we might be missing something.
MajorBowman: Yes, don’t remember if I voted it up to 1 or not but I agree with milk that it shouldn’t have ever been there. It’s a great mon and I would never drop it below 1.5, but I think it has one too many flaws to be absolutely top tier
Memoric: no, marsh aka dominant physical attacker gives it a probably unstoppable demise + considering the other factors that have always held it to be fringe 1.
miltankmilk: Yes it never should have been tier 1. Its a really great mon but its easily intimidated and Hole doesn’t hit that hard. Tapus are everywhere and z marsh gives it the D.
qsns: No, it’s extremely threatening and still a hard hitting breaker that provides its own speed control. I don’t think people are giving nearly enough respect to the less standard but still terrifying sets such as max spa w/ Lele support and Scarf.
shaian: Abstain, it’s not going to be lower than 1.5 for a while unless there are radical shifts in the metagame, but it’s place in 1 seems contentious due to the multitude of checks to the conventional Trick Room set, meaning that teams are not hard pressed to deal with it. Though as qsns said, the relative lack of exploration with Hoopa-U means that we might be missing something.
Zygarde 1.5 -> 2
kamikaze: Yes. Swagger ban made it way less threatening like the others said
MajorBowman: Yes. Zygarde lost a lot of steam after the Swagger ban since it has a hard time setting up to a point where it has respectable damage output without getting a free +2 from its partner. Still decent, just not as good as it had been
Memoric: yes, what qsns said he’s p right
miltankmilk: Yeah, marsh steals this boi’s boosts, fini and lando stop him from really shining and it just doesn’t hit all that hard.
qsns: Yes, way too weak against fat w/o Swagger and too slow against the new wave of HO teams.
shaian: Yes. Nothing new has come up in regards to Zygarde in a while, and its place near the top of the metagame is no longer necessarily deserved, particularly post-Swagger ban which hit Zygarde harder than most Pokemon.
MajorBowman: Yes. Zygarde lost a lot of steam after the Swagger ban since it has a hard time setting up to a point where it has respectable damage output without getting a free +2 from its partner. Still decent, just not as good as it had been
Memoric: yes, what qsns said he’s p right
miltankmilk: Yeah, marsh steals this boi’s boosts, fini and lando stop him from really shining and it just doesn’t hit all that hard.
qsns: Yes, way too weak against fat w/o Swagger and too slow against the new wave of HO teams.
shaian: Yes. Nothing new has come up in regards to Zygarde in a while, and its place near the top of the metagame is no longer necessarily deserved, particularly post-Swagger ban which hit Zygarde harder than most Pokemon.
kamikaze: Abstain
MajorBowman: No, still a very good check to a lot of top tier mons including what I think are inarguably the 2 best megas (mence and gengar). CB sets are good like other people have said, and I’m still a fan of the mixed ice beam sets too. Also lmfao @ “worse than mega tar” shay you’re crazy
Memoric: HELLO???, it’s a damn god why would we even drop this. It’s the type of mon that always does work because it has the power and the thiccness, CB is an eraser and it has a good number of options
miltankmilk: no ttar is still really good. CB hits like a truck and doesnt take a mega slot. It helps you win weather wars, checks mence and gar with some cool options like lowkick, pursuit, SR!!!! No reason to move it down
qsns: no, CB puts out an incredible amount of damage even past intimidate and its ability to combat the weather wars vs rain psyspam/zardy squads is super useful. Has lots of support options if your team needs something either than a straight hard hitter.
shaian: Yeah, smd bowman
MajorBowman: No, still a very good check to a lot of top tier mons including what I think are inarguably the 2 best megas (mence and gengar). CB sets are good like other people have said, and I’m still a fan of the mixed ice beam sets too. Also lmfao @ “worse than mega tar” shay you’re crazy
Memoric: HELLO???, it’s a damn god why would we even drop this. It’s the type of mon that always does work because it has the power and the thiccness, CB is an eraser and it has a good number of options
miltankmilk: no ttar is still really good. CB hits like a truck and doesnt take a mega slot. It helps you win weather wars, checks mence and gar with some cool options like lowkick, pursuit, SR!!!! No reason to move it down
qsns: no, CB puts out an incredible amount of damage even past intimidate and its ability to combat the weather wars vs rain psyspam/zardy squads is super useful. Has lots of support options if your team needs something either than a straight hard hitter.
shaian: Yeah, smd bowman
kamikaze: UR. I havent seen it in eons and its hard to justify with so many fairies, Misty Seed Zap, CM Fini. It was a great fire check but fire usage has dropped. Last gen it was an ok rain check but it gets bopped by deo, lele, kingdra, marshadow which are on most common rain comps.
MajorBowman: UR, awful mon. How did it even get to 3 lol
Memoric: UR, lol there’s no reason to use this anymore lol
miltankmilk: UR is fine honestly, i think he still has some utlity but not enough to be ranked
qsns: UR it’s absolute trash and has been since day 1 of SM
shaian: MF DOOM wil never die, but sadly hydreigon is no longer as good as it was in ORAS (ps use 3 attacks in gen 6 or you’re actually garbage)
MajorBowman: UR, awful mon. How did it even get to 3 lol
Memoric: UR, lol there’s no reason to use this anymore lol
miltankmilk: UR is fine honestly, i think he still has some utlity but not enough to be ranked
qsns: UR it’s absolute trash and has been since day 1 of SM
shaian: MF DOOM wil never die, but sadly hydreigon is no longer as good as it was in ORAS (ps use 3 attacks in gen 6 or you’re actually garbage)
kamikaze: No. This mon hits like a wet noodle. Fake Out and Intimidate are nice but it fails to have an offensive pressure. This is a big deal since I see it often being abused by people taking advantage of Scrafty’s team it by burnings TR turns. Scrafty rarely can ever be threatening on the first turn of TR after it used Fake Out to get it up since its often intimidated and usually a fairy like Fini comes in and forces it out. People try to use it as a Ferro check on their TR teams and it doesnt really work out well since it keeps getting intimidated in almost every instance I see a ferro in front of it. Fightinium I have seen a few times and it may be more threatening but you give up the added survivability from a berry so it can Fake Out multple times in one game. So pick your poison.
MajorBowman: YES SCRAFTY IS THE TRUTH HATERS BACK OFF
Memoric: no, yeah scrafty is an ignorable threat on the field which can be pretty devestating when t turns are limited.
miltankmilk: No, scrafty hits like a kitten and is pretty easy to abuse. Fake out and intim is cool but not cool enough to be rank 3.
qsns: yes, fake out intimidate is sick support and it lives long enough to get meaningful chip damage off.
shaian: yeah it’s good.
MajorBowman: YES SCRAFTY IS THE TRUTH HATERS BACK OFF
Memoric: no, yeah scrafty is an ignorable threat on the field which can be pretty devestating when t turns are limited.
miltankmilk: No, scrafty hits like a kitten and is pretty easy to abuse. Fake out and intim is cool but not cool enough to be rank 3.
qsns: yes, fake out intimidate is sick support and it lives long enough to get meaningful chip damage off.
shaian: yeah it’s good.
kamikaze: Yes. Marshadow coming out and rain picking up really makes it more difficult to use. But trapping is still absurdly good so I dont want to see this drop anymore unless some big meta changes start happening.
MajorBowman: No, shadow tag is busted and mega gengar has great damage output with a lot of really good and underexplored support options
Memoric: yes, marsh coming in as an untrappable monster that’s also capable of picking it off makes it a bit more complicated to utilize. Soild 1.5 tho
miltankmilk: yeah. I like mega gar a lot but i think its gotten worse with all the TR,Semi TR, sneak marsh, scarf leles rain psyspam etc.
qsns: ugh fine it isnt that good
shaian: i havent seen one in months so that probably means its 1.5 tier now?
MajorBowman: No, shadow tag is busted and mega gengar has great damage output with a lot of really good and underexplored support options
Memoric: yes, marsh coming in as an untrappable monster that’s also capable of picking it off makes it a bit more complicated to utilize. Soild 1.5 tho
miltankmilk: yeah. I like mega gar a lot but i think its gotten worse with all the TR,Semi TR, sneak marsh, scarf leles rain psyspam etc.
qsns: ugh fine it isnt that good
shaian: i havent seen one in months so that probably means its 1.5 tier now?
kamikaze: Abstain
MajorBowman: Nah I still think it’s tier 2 worthy, damage output is insane in the right spot and fire/grass coverage is really solid
Memoric: no way lol, zard’s the absolute truth when you wanna go really offensive
miltankmilk: yeah he’s pretty tough to justify on teams even if it still hits super hard. Tailwind zard is still hot but needs some partners to deal with the fullroom goons, mence and mega diancie.
qsns: no, timid 248 hp/252 speed zard is great and ppl sticking to the bad 16 speed zards that plagued oras is the reason for this nomination even happening. It’s best used on a beatdown offense squad instead of the weird balance teams such as kami’s sample and I promise you’ll like it if you try it on this :x
shaian: Tier 4 if real.
MajorBowman: Nah I still think it’s tier 2 worthy, damage output is insane in the right spot and fire/grass coverage is really solid
Memoric: no way lol, zard’s the absolute truth when you wanna go really offensive
miltankmilk: yeah he’s pretty tough to justify on teams even if it still hits super hard. Tailwind zard is still hot but needs some partners to deal with the fullroom goons, mence and mega diancie.
qsns: no, timid 248 hp/252 speed zard is great and ppl sticking to the bad 16 speed zards that plagued oras is the reason for this nomination even happening. It’s best used on a beatdown offense squad instead of the weird balance teams such as kami’s sample and I promise you’ll like it if you try it on this :x
shaian: Tier 4 if real.
kamikaze: Abstain
MajorBowman: Abstain, I kinda forgot this mon existed. Think it’s probably still good enough for 2 but don’t really know enough to form an educated opinion
Memoric: abstain
miltankmilk: move this to tier 4, skymin aint good.
qsns: no, criminally underrated and a key to the non weather/psyterrain offenses that I’ve used. Marshadow’s release has just made it better and Seed Flare drops/Air Slashes are still just as threatening to fat teams as ever.
shaian: Read Zard.
MajorBowman: Abstain, I kinda forgot this mon existed. Think it’s probably still good enough for 2 but don’t really know enough to form an educated opinion
Memoric: abstain
miltankmilk: move this to tier 4, skymin aint good.
qsns: no, criminally underrated and a key to the non weather/psyterrain offenses that I’ve used. Marshadow’s release has just made it better and Seed Flare drops/Air Slashes are still just as threatening to fat teams as ever.
shaian: Read Zard.
kamikaze: Yes what bowman said
MajorBowman: Yes, marshadow pretty much stole its job. I’d even vote for UR tbh, Terrakion’s only use is on terracott
Memoric: the above ^
miltankmilk: Abstain
qsns: Yes, haven’t seen it in a while and it’s lost a lot of its niche considering we now have a good fighting type.
shaian: And skymin.
MajorBowman: Yes, marshadow pretty much stole its job. I’d even vote for UR tbh, Terrakion’s only use is on terracott
Memoric: the above ^
miltankmilk: Abstain
qsns: Yes, haven’t seen it in a while and it’s lost a lot of its niche considering we now have a good fighting type.
shaian: And skymin.
kamikaze: No. Im open to this if I see it in play more. It could be good with BD Lax but want to see it used more in practice before moving up to 4 since we are being more strict with 4 now
MajorBowman: No, doesn’t do enough for its team to warrant anyone using it over something like Amoonguss
Memoric: this is used?
miltankmilk: abstain, pretty sure elise put this on one team, showed it to matame then nommed it.
qsns: no, it’s pretty bad and always goes through a cycle on vranks where its hyped up for a bit, gets on after like everyone abstains, and stays on there for 3 months after the hype dies because no one bothers to bring it up. Let’s not
shaian: i mean, ive never seen it in DOU so im gonna say abstain.
MajorBowman: No, doesn’t do enough for its team to warrant anyone using it over something like Amoonguss
Memoric: this is used?
miltankmilk: abstain, pretty sure elise put this on one team, showed it to matame then nommed it.
qsns: no, it’s pretty bad and always goes through a cycle on vranks where its hyped up for a bit, gets on after like everyone abstains, and stays on there for 3 months after the hype dies because no one bothers to bring it up. Let’s not
shaian: i mean, ive never seen it in DOU so im gonna say abstain.
kamikaze: 1.5 still. We had an initial freak out when it got randomly released and its not as strong as some people thought but I have seen it positioned well and be so threatening to many Team Comps this gen. Rain is one of its poor matchups but it does a number on most other Team Comps with Diamond Storm spam. Like milk said pairing with a fire helps a lot in this venture for things like ferrothorn.
MajorBowman: Yes, good mon but not anything ridiculous like I was expecting when it came out.
Memoric: 2, it’s a good mon but it’s the type that can get denied p easily imo, not dominating enough to be 1.5
miltankmilk: all it does is win games but TF denies its strength. Find a fire type to pair with it and profit, keep it at 1.5.
qsns: 1.5, it hits obscenely hard and can afford to invest more in its bulk/offenses considering how useless the 110 speed tier is. Dstorm makes it rly bulky if you can even hit one boost, which is pretty likely if you bring it in with decent positioning.
shaian: prolly stilll a 1.5 mon y’all tripping hard on this bandwagon shit.
MajorBowman: Yes, good mon but not anything ridiculous like I was expecting when it came out.
Memoric: 2, it’s a good mon but it’s the type that can get denied p easily imo, not dominating enough to be 1.5
miltankmilk: all it does is win games but TF denies its strength. Find a fire type to pair with it and profit, keep it at 1.5.
qsns: 1.5, it hits obscenely hard and can afford to invest more in its bulk/offenses considering how useless the 110 speed tier is. Dstorm makes it rly bulky if you can even hit one boost, which is pretty likely if you bring it in with decent positioning.
shaian: prolly stilll a 1.5 mon y’all tripping hard on this bandwagon shit.
kamikaze: I think we are blacklisting ranking Mimikyu for a bit since people keep trying to push this one
MajorBowman: Didn’t we just UR this, keep it there please
Memoric: no lol
miltankmilk: nothing changed since last time. No. also can we blacklist mimikyu noms? Its like the third one in 3 weeks
qsns: no
shaian: did mizuhime nom this one? I mean its not a bad setter and has its place so i guess its whatever at 4 but i dont feel particularly strong about it. is idc an option?
MajorBowman: Didn’t we just UR this, keep it there please
Memoric: no lol
miltankmilk: nothing changed since last time. No. also can we blacklist mimikyu noms? Its like the third one in 3 weeks
qsns: no
shaian: did mizuhime nom this one? I mean its not a bad setter and has its place so i guess its whatever at 4 but i dont feel particularly strong about it. is idc an option?
kamikaze: Abstain
MajorBowman: I’ve used volc a little more myself recently and it’s only just alright, 4 is a good place for it
Memoric: abstain
miltankmilk: kaori’s been showing me some cool volc sets but i think the metas pretty hostile to fires and specifically volc. 4.
Qsns: yes, haven’t seen this in a while and I don’t think it’s particularly effective.
shaian: i wasnt even aware that it was tier 3 so yeah.
MajorBowman: I’ve used volc a little more myself recently and it’s only just alright, 4 is a good place for it
Memoric: abstain
miltankmilk: kaori’s been showing me some cool volc sets but i think the metas pretty hostile to fires and specifically volc. 4.
Qsns: yes, haven’t seen this in a while and I don’t think it’s particularly effective.
shaian: i wasnt even aware that it was tier 3 so yeah.
kamikaze: No. Like the others said Kingdra and pert tend to do more to most team comps.
MajorBowman: No, kingdra and pert are both better swift swimmers imo. Ludi has super lackluster damage output and mediocre bulk
Memoric: no, taking out fini isn’t a good enoug niche
miltankmilk: no i think its a tier below pert and kingdra so 4 is fine.
qsns: No, killing Fini is nice but the other two swimmers are inherently a lot stronger.
shaian: its not kingdra or pert so no, but its not bad
MajorBowman: No, kingdra and pert are both better swift swimmers imo. Ludi has super lackluster damage output and mediocre bulk
Memoric: no, taking out fini isn’t a good enoug niche
miltankmilk: no i think its a tier below pert and kingdra so 4 is fine.
qsns: No, killing Fini is nice but the other two swimmers are inherently a lot stronger.
shaian: its not kingdra or pert so no, but its not bad
kamikaze: Abstain
MajorBowman: UR
Memoric: abstain
miltankmilk: fine but i hate myself for saying yes
qsns: fine but i hate myself for saying yes
shaian: yeah i hate both of you for saying yes tho
MajorBowman: UR
Memoric: abstain
miltankmilk: fine but i hate myself for saying yes
qsns: fine but i hate myself for saying yes
shaian: yeah i hate both of you for saying yes tho
kamikaze: Yes
MajorBowman: yeah this thing is crazy good lol. qsns nailed it
Memoric: this is broken and claims at least one every game
miltankmilk: read my post. Yes
qsns: 1, marshadium z basically guarantees a kill providing TR isn’t up, offensively pressures the majority of the metagame even after using the z move and its bulk is surprisingly good for an strong, fast attacker. Sneak gives it great utility even if speed control isn’t on your side, making it an extremely flexible pokemon that works well in every stage of the match. I c/p’d the last time I voted for this, glad i was right :>
shaian: yeah thanks qsns
MajorBowman: yeah this thing is crazy good lol. qsns nailed it
Memoric: this is broken and claims at least one every game
miltankmilk: read my post. Yes
qsns: 1, marshadium z basically guarantees a kill providing TR isn’t up, offensively pressures the majority of the metagame even after using the z move and its bulk is surprisingly good for an strong, fast attacker. Sneak gives it great utility even if speed control isn’t on your side, making it an extremely flexible pokemon that works well in every stage of the match. I c/p’d the last time I voted for this, glad i was right :>
shaian: yeah thanks qsns
kamikaze: No. I dont think the AV kyub set really pushes it up to Tier 2 even though a lot of people seem on that craze
MajorBowman: yes, the AV set took the meta by storm and i’m a big fan. Agree with milk that it shouldn’t go higher than 1.5 but moving up from 2 is fine
Memoric: yeah, really great mon that can just glue a team together, fun pick
miltankmilk: yeah this things a pretty damn good pivot but I don’t think it should go higher than this. Soft checks most of the meta by default.
qsns: yes, glue mon that patches up a lot of holes in one spot while being really difficult to take down, even with super effective moves. good shit
shaian: Yeah, the Assault Vest set is a great defensive pivot that can catch a lot of teams off guard with speed control via Icy Wind, or put dents in common threats like Tapu Fini, Koko, and Lando-T.
MajorBowman: yes, the AV set took the meta by storm and i’m a big fan. Agree with milk that it shouldn’t go higher than 1.5 but moving up from 2 is fine
Memoric: yeah, really great mon that can just glue a team together, fun pick
miltankmilk: yeah this things a pretty damn good pivot but I don’t think it should go higher than this. Soft checks most of the meta by default.
qsns: yes, glue mon that patches up a lot of holes in one spot while being really difficult to take down, even with super effective moves. good shit
shaian: Yeah, the Assault Vest set is a great defensive pivot that can catch a lot of teams off guard with speed control via Icy Wind, or put dents in common threats like Tapu Fini, Koko, and Lando-T.
Mega Lopunny 4 -> UR
Hoopa-U 1 -> 1.5
Zygarde 1.5 -> 2
Hydreigon 4 -> UR
Mega Gengar 1 -> 1.5
Shaymin-Sky 2 -> 4
Terrakion 3 -> 4
Mimikyu is temporarily blacklisted from being nommed
Volcarona 3 -> 4
Torkoal UR -> 4
Marshadow 1.5 -> 1
Kyurem-Black 2-> 1.5
I dont think too much needs to be said about how powerful Rain is at the moment and Swampert is one of its staple megas. A pretty fair amount of threats in the metagame dont resist water and get mowed down by Waterfall which still does a fairly significant amount even when Intimidated.
Water Ground is a fantastic offensive and defensive typing at the moment and that is also combined with 100/110/110 defenses to generally take multiple neutral hits. Electrics like Zapdos and Koko are pretty common prominent threats and can become deadweight in front of swampert. The former is a sitting duck in front of Swampert and burns its own Tailwind turns while remaining on the field, unless you get Static para'ed which has unfortunately happened to me before. The latter generally has no means of ko'ing with standard builds but because Koko is less passive than Zapdos it can still annoy Swampert's partner in some scanerios. The ability to make one slot of your opponents field difficult to use and abuse the situation by focusing down on the other is one of the more powerful strategies in doubles and Swampert can do it more easily than a lot of other Pokemon.
Swampert also can dent its main checks pretty hard with coverage moves and get KO's after prior damage such as Superpower for Ferro and Ice Punch for mence. Its still unable to do much to Fini and Amoonguss, and because of how its limited to mainly 1 team style and needs good prior damage on some of the previously mentioned threats I dont expect it to go into 1.5 territory but 2 is a solid fit for how threatening it is to a majority of the metagame.
Rotom-W to Tier 4
I've been using this thing recently and i know a few others have and tbh its not actually dreadful. Its an amazing rain check because it walls m pert and non-draco kingdras and can hydro pump or t wave them, respectively. Its still a solid lando t switchin and also checks the best mega atm in mence as they almost always run solely flying coverage. I think its good enough atm to at least be ranked
do you have replays of this?
Rotom-W to Tier 4
I've been using this thing recently and i know a few others have and tbh its not actually dreadful. Its an amazing rain check because it walls m pert and non-draco kingdras and can hydro pump or t wave them, respectively. Its still a solid lando t switchin and also checks the best mega atm in mence as they almost always run solely flying coverage. I think its good enough atm to at least be ranked
I havent personally seen rotom-w in months so its difficult to form a proper opinion on whether it should be ranked.
hello???
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7doublesou-316945
rotom you're amazing don't let the haters get you down
Volcanion Tier 3 -> Tier 2
Arguably the best Fire-type at this moment, has strong appearances on Snake and Seasonals. This thing is an all in one check to rain, sun, Tapu Fini, and Ferrothorn. Also able to 1v1 non Groundium Landorus-T and semi-checking TR thanks to it bulk. I think this Pokemon deserve to be ranked higher than the unmon Heatran and good enough to be Tier 2
Mega Scizor Tier 4 -> Tier 3
Mega Scizor has been gaining popularity thanks to some high-level users building around it for Snake and Seasonal matches.
The elevator pitch for Mega Scizor -> Tier 3 is that it's a really consistent glue mon and setup sweeper for balance-oriented teams, and it's a pretty forgiving mon to build around. You really can't go wrong with Scizor + Tapu Fini (heal pulse) + Lando + Marshadow + two filler slots.
With decent bulk, fantastic Attack and only one weakness (albeit a x4 weakness to Fire), Scizor works really well as a setup sweeper on balance-oriented teams. It's one of the few setup mons right now that isn't immediately threatened by Marshadow thanks to its strong Technician-boosted Bullet Punches. Bug Bite gives Scizor a stronger STAB that punishes pinch berry holders, while Knock Off gives Scizor relatively unresisted coverage. It can also run a bulkier set with Roost over Protect.
Mega Scizor does struggle sometimes to find the right opportunity to set up, and without Tapu Fini supporting it with Heal Pulse, it must be careful not to get too greedy setting up only to miss its opportunity to sweep.
I considered nomming this to Tier 2, but Fire-types and Fire-type coverage moves do seem to be making a bit of a comeback thanks to the rise in popularity of both Ferrothorn and Scizor. Volcanion in particular seems to be picking up more steam.
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10/10 for the pun/wordplay/whatever
Volcanion in particular seems to be picking up more steam.
Nominating hoopa for 1>1.5, I think hoopa-u should be rank 1, its possibly the most versatile mon in the tier, can OHKO a huge amount of top threats, specifically marshadow, can run every choice item, can run on a TR team (or not), and can run phisical, special, or mixed set very easily with hyperspace fury/hole which are excellent moves that both ignore protect. It can also use gunk shot to OHKO the tapus, and other fairy types
Most of these nominations are going to based around 2 trends in the post-Marshadow metagame: how damn good Marshadow is and the huge spike in Stealth Rock usage.
- Marshadow is extremely hard to switch into and definitely seems to be the best Pokemon in the tier right now. While teambuilding, finding switchins to it is damn near impossible and revenge killing is often the best way to take it out.
- Stealth Rock has been seeing waaay more usage on Pokemon like Lando-T and especially Ferrothorn wear down teams for late game cleaners such as the rising MScizor. These work especially well vs balances, as it's a lot harder to switch into strong moves like LO Spectral Thief if you've taken 12-25% on each of your Pokemon.
These two trends really shift the power away from the balance builds that dominated the pre-Marshadow metagame. I believe offense is the best playstyle right now and I'm making some nominations accordingly.
Tapu Fini 1 -> 1.5
Fini's passiveness is really biting it in the ass in this metagame as it struggles to do much besides take a few Spectral Thiefs and fire off a Moonblast or two. It's still good, don't get me wrong, but it is far from the titan it was during the Swagger days. Though it has the highest usage in Snake Tour, I believe it's more of a reflection of some players' building tendencies rather than Fini being absolutely insane. It defines balance but I don't think that playstyle is great right now and Marshadow / Lando-T / Salamence are all leagues ahead in viability and splashability ON ALL TEAM TYPES compared to Tapu Fini.
Deoxys Attack 2 -> 1.5
Long time coming. Key player on many offense teams, especially the Psyspam variants. The discovery of the Psychium sets give this thing a whole new level of power - if you're using Sash on this, chances are, you're not using this optimally. Straight up OHKOing Tapu Fini outside of Psy Terrain and 0HP Heatran in it is sickening levels of power. Deo-A isn't just a one-trick pony with Lele either - see my Snake game vs. Bowman for an example. Coverage Z moves are lethal and work especially well in pressuring steels to open up holes for partners.
The best way for most teams to deal with this Pokemon is to trade 1 for 1 with it, and that IS the best case scenario. Often, a well-positioned Deo-A can get 2-3 kills in any stage of the game and either smashes teams into submission or cleans with ease.
Mega Scizor 4 -> 2
I know this was nommed to 3 but that doesn't really do it justice. This mon probably benefits the most from SR as it targets the Fires like CharY and Volcanion that stop +2 BP from sweeping. In general, chip is very nice for MSciz. It also benefits from the increase in Marshadow offense builds because this performs a lot better when it can slice through teams with BP instead of its slow Bug Bites. I don't think this is a Snake Tour fad and will continue to see usage afterwards.
Entire Tiering System 1, 1.5, 2, 3, 4 -> 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
The 1.5 tier is asinine and does absolutely nothing to help newer players. The gap between the tiers is entirely arbitrary (the difference between 1 and 1.5 is not bigger than 2 and 3 what) and the first two tiers aren't special for that. It's inconsistent, confusing, generally stupid and bothers me to no end. Could we please fix this garbage
- Marshadow is extremely hard to switch into and definitely seems to be the best Pokemon in the tier right now. While teambuilding, finding switchins to it is damn near impossible and revenge killing is often the best way to take it out.
- Stealth Rock has been seeing waaay more usage on Pokemon like Lando-T and especially Ferrothorn wear down teams for late game cleaners such as the rising MScizor. These work especially well vs balances, as it's a lot harder to switch into strong moves like LO Spectral Thief if you've taken 12-25% on each of your Pokemon.
These two trends really shift the power away from the balance builds that dominated the pre-Marshadow metagame. I believe offense is the best playstyle right now and I'm making some nominations accordingly.
Tapu Fini 1 -> 1.5
Fini's passiveness is really biting it in the ass in this metagame as it struggles to do much besides take a few Spectral Thiefs and fire off a Moonblast or two. It's still good, don't get me wrong, but it is far from the titan it was during the Swagger days. Though it has the highest usage in Snake Tour, I believe it's more of a reflection of some players' building tendencies rather than Fini being absolutely insane. It defines balance but I don't think that playstyle is great right now and Marshadow / Lando-T / Salamence are all leagues ahead in viability and splashability ON ALL TEAM TYPES compared to Tapu Fini.
Deoxys Attack 2 -> 1.5
Long time coming. Key player on many offense teams, especially the Psyspam variants. The discovery of the Psychium sets give this thing a whole new level of power - if you're using Sash on this, chances are, you're not using this optimally. Straight up OHKOing Tapu Fini outside of Psy Terrain and 0HP Heatran in it is sickening levels of power. Deo-A isn't just a one-trick pony with Lele either - see my Snake game vs. Bowman for an example. Coverage Z moves are lethal and work especially well in pressuring steels to open up holes for partners.
The best way for most teams to deal with this Pokemon is to trade 1 for 1 with it, and that IS the best case scenario. Often, a well-positioned Deo-A can get 2-3 kills in any stage of the game and either smashes teams into submission or cleans with ease.
Mega Scizor 4 -> 2
I know this was nommed to 3 but that doesn't really do it justice. This mon probably benefits the most from SR as it targets the Fires like CharY and Volcanion that stop +2 BP from sweeping. In general, chip is very nice for MSciz. It also benefits from the increase in Marshadow offense builds because this performs a lot better when it can slice through teams with BP instead of its slow Bug Bites. I don't think this is a Snake Tour fad and will continue to see usage afterwards.
Entire Tiering System 1, 1.5, 2, 3, 4 -> 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
The 1.5 tier is asinine and does absolutely nothing to help newer players. The gap between the tiers is entirely arbitrary (the difference between 1 and 1.5 is not bigger than 2 and 3 what) and the first two tiers aren't special for that. It's inconsistent, confusing, generally stupid and bothers me to no end. Could we please fix this garbage
alternatively S A B C D which is much more aesthetic
Point of numbers is that there isn't that mental association with grades for classes and stuff, stratos wrote about it a long time ago i think
Regarding the tiering system I think neither of these fully solves the problem. The point of a 1.5 in this case is that Tier 1 is reserved for mons that are just really, really, really good while Tier 1.5 is mons that are still excellent picks, splashable on many teams, etc., but aren't like metagame-warping monstrosities like Marshadow. SABCD solves this issue by noting that S goes "above and beyond" A, but as Checkmater mentioned the association with letter grades is to be avoided - a C tier mon isn't really as bad as a C grade, especially if you're in high school like most players. Furthermore, as Stratos wrote, the letter system bottoms out at F, whereas a numerical system can go on to Tier 10 or 20 for truly awful Pokemon (think Spinda-tier mons) or whatever with us only showing the top few tiers. In this regard, marilli suggested in the Discord that 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 might be a good solution, since Tier 0 encapsulates what we mean by Tier 1, probably.
ON THAT NOTE would like to do a very sad_violin.mp3 nomination
Tier 3 --> Tier 4
This Pokemon is just not all that great anymore. It's fairly predictable and requires a lot of team support in order to perform well, and the introduction of Marshadow, which can steal its boosts in Tailwind or with redirection, and the skyrocketing rates of AV Kyurem-B usage just make it worse. Not much to say here, I've used it a lot and each time I've brought it it's become harder to use.
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