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Resource SM Doubles OU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter kamikaze
- Start date
- Status
Tapu Koko to 1 seems fair, but I disagree on lando-t to 1.5 since it has a good matchups vs literally all tier 1 pokemon and provides valuable intimidate + u-turn and has a new niche in outspeeding deo-a when jolly and flinch it.
Hoopa-U doesn't deserve to be tier 1 despite its great stab moves and firepower. Its not as if you can just click TR and sweep. Hoopa-U is frail and is OHKoed by mence, lando-t overheat zard y, tapu lele Tapu Bulu etc. Also, the fake out nerf of Tapu lele DOESNT benefit Hoopa-U, since u can no more pair it with a fake out user yourself, which means it has to take even more hits.
Hoopa-U doesn't deserve to be tier 1 despite its great stab moves and firepower. Its not as if you can just click TR and sweep. Hoopa-U is frail and is OHKoed by mence, lando-t overheat zard y, tapu lele Tapu Bulu etc. Also, the fake out nerf of Tapu lele DOESNT benefit Hoopa-U, since u can no more pair it with a fake out user yourself, which means it has to take even more hits.
Torkoal -> 4
Dumb li'l turtle getting Drought means it's like Zard-Y for Trick Room, but because it gets Eruption and has a free item slot, its spread move hits harder.
252+ SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-Therian in Sun: 267-315 (83.6 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Charcoal Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-Therian in Sun: 325-384 (101.8 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Besides that, it's surprisingly chunky physically, notably taking even Life Orb Landot and surviving, albeit barely.
252 Atk Life Orb Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 260-307 (75.5 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It puts up some respectable numbers, 2HKOing low-bulk fire resists and almost OHKOing Tapu Lele with no investment.
252+ SpA Charcoal Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence-Mega in Sun: 148-175 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Charcoal Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele in Sun: 241-285 (85.4 - 101%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Steels are basically pronounced dead on arrival, less resilient things like Koko and Hoopa-U are OHKOed, and everything takes a lot. It takes some of the bulkiest Waters in the tier to not get at least 2HKOed by Eruption.
252+ SpA Charcoal Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill in Sun: 164-193 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Charcoal Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini in Sun: 108-128 (31.3 - 37.2%) -- 83.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Charcoal Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic in Sun: 112-132 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
Unlike Zard-Y, Torkoal gets Sludge Bomb and Earth Power to go with Solar Beam as coverage moves, so it isn't totally thwarted by them either. My calcs use Charcoal specifically so it isn't choice-locked, but it can run Specs for yet more punch if the partners can handle them. For teammates, it of course demands big Trick Room support, and it also needs friends who can get bulky fire resists. It's not hard to plan for that though, 'cause it's easy to tell which of the top-tier guys are the ones that take Eruptions.
It is astonishingly slow, and needs Trick Room to do pretty much any work. Alternate weather effects really dig into its damage output, and if it gets chipped it has to rely on a less exciting Heat Wave. Both really show off how 85 base special attack is actually pretty bad. 70/70 special bulk is meh, slightly less than Tapu Koko. As a special-based sun sweeper, Zard-Y answers will almost always get to it too. The level of investment to get this dumb turtle in there is pretty significant, but I believe the payoff earns it a spot in the situational niche tier, as it can score some KOs with Eruption that Zard-Y can't with Heat Wave and make the most of the short duration of both TR and Sun.
Dumb li'l turtle getting Drought means it's like Zard-Y for Trick Room, but because it gets Eruption and has a free item slot, its spread move hits harder.
252+ SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-Therian in Sun: 267-315 (83.6 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Charcoal Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-Therian in Sun: 325-384 (101.8 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Besides that, it's surprisingly chunky physically, notably taking even Life Orb Landot and surviving, albeit barely.
252 Atk Life Orb Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 260-307 (75.5 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It puts up some respectable numbers, 2HKOing low-bulk fire resists and almost OHKOing Tapu Lele with no investment.
252+ SpA Charcoal Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence-Mega in Sun: 148-175 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Charcoal Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele in Sun: 241-285 (85.4 - 101%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Steels are basically pronounced dead on arrival, less resilient things like Koko and Hoopa-U are OHKOed, and everything takes a lot. It takes some of the bulkiest Waters in the tier to not get at least 2HKOed by Eruption.
252+ SpA Charcoal Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill in Sun: 164-193 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Charcoal Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini in Sun: 108-128 (31.3 - 37.2%) -- 83.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Charcoal Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic in Sun: 112-132 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
Unlike Zard-Y, Torkoal gets Sludge Bomb and Earth Power to go with Solar Beam as coverage moves, so it isn't totally thwarted by them either. My calcs use Charcoal specifically so it isn't choice-locked, but it can run Specs for yet more punch if the partners can handle them. For teammates, it of course demands big Trick Room support, and it also needs friends who can get bulky fire resists. It's not hard to plan for that though, 'cause it's easy to tell which of the top-tier guys are the ones that take Eruptions.
It is astonishingly slow, and needs Trick Room to do pretty much any work. Alternate weather effects really dig into its damage output, and if it gets chipped it has to rely on a less exciting Heat Wave. Both really show off how 85 base special attack is actually pretty bad. 70/70 special bulk is meh, slightly less than Tapu Koko. As a special-based sun sweeper, Zard-Y answers will almost always get to it too. The level of investment to get this dumb turtle in there is pretty significant, but I believe the payoff earns it a spot in the situational niche tier, as it can score some KOs with Eruption that Zard-Y can't with Heat Wave and make the most of the short duration of both TR and Sun.
Sylveon -> Tier 4 or lower
I have never seen a Sylveon on ladder. Tapus and the terrains are pretty much essential right now, and adding in a second pure fairy mon really makes the team hard to build and work with. Also for it to do any significant damage, it needs to be specs, making swapping into it really easy.
I have never seen a Sylveon on ladder. Tapus and the terrains are pretty much essential right now, and adding in a second pure fairy mon really makes the team hard to build and work with. Also for it to do any significant damage, it needs to be specs, making swapping into it really easy.
FloristtheBudew
I'm just tired
Are people really that against Sylveon? It's not like people have gone and tested it out themselves. Sylveon doesn't have to be a straight up damage dealer, nor are tapus required for a team. I'm a big fan of the pixie plate set that looks to support faster paced teams with helping hand to overcome its slow speed tier. Where you hyper voice if the board allows you to / is the best option at hand for you.
It still threatens things with spread fairy coverage and isn't being a wasteful turn of damage output like say Tapu Lele or Tapu Koko. As their dazzling gleam has a low damage output when compared to their second stab, which has a lot higher damage potential.
It still threatens things with spread fairy coverage and isn't being a wasteful turn of damage output like say Tapu Lele or Tapu Koko. As their dazzling gleam has a low damage output when compared to their second stab, which has a lot higher damage potential.
SYlveon is great, it's just getting crowded out by the tapus. No need to drop it lower than tier 3 imho. It's even more specially bulky than Tapu Fini, while hitting a lot harder with Pixilate-boosted Hyper Voice coming from a base 110 SpA. In terms of spread fairy coverage, nothing beats Sylveon.
Celesteela's around, one base speed faster, and beats the hell out of it while barely taking any damage back.
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 56 HP / 200 Def Sylveon: 288-338 (83.4 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 6 SpD Celesteela: 96-113 (24.1 - 28.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 4HKO
And it fares poorly against a lot of other top things.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 86-102 (23.9 - 28.4%) -- 95.3% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 164 SpD Jirachi: 82-97 (20.2 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 67-80 (20.6 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 46-54 (13.9 - 16.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Not insurmountable problems to get around - those are mostly steels and fires - but it's not really worth it. 60 base speed is a huge drag, too. I can see 4 for it, since that Specs Hyper Voice is way up there in terms of spread moves and it can do 80%+ to frail attackers.
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 56 HP / 200 Def Sylveon: 288-338 (83.4 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 6 SpD Celesteela: 96-113 (24.1 - 28.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 4HKO
And it fares poorly against a lot of other top things.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 86-102 (23.9 - 28.4%) -- 95.3% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 164 SpD Jirachi: 82-97 (20.2 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 67-80 (20.6 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 46-54 (13.9 - 16.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Not insurmountable problems to get around - those are mostly steels and fires - but it's not really worth it. 60 base speed is a huge drag, too. I can see 4 for it, since that Specs Hyper Voice is way up there in terms of spread moves and it can do 80%+ to frail attackers.
Big News: Fairy types don't do well vs. fire and steel types.
I have found a lot of success using TR sylveon with fire spam. Very few things enjoy switching into either of those, and it punches holes in teams that dont have a very good check to both. It's still a good mon, just not the top tier threat it used to be.
Once again, where is Cress, and why is Necrozma tier 3??
I know the first round was already sent out, but given the extensive discussion around Bronzong in the metagame thread, I think that mon deserves to go to tier 3. With its z hypnosis set, It's a pretty big threat to teams without an answer to it, and a minority of people even seem to be in favour banning it. I don't think it's ban-worthy, but the discussion I linked to makes it pretty clear that zonger is more effective than what Tier 4 implies.
Kamikaze: VR Council --> UR
Has half as many SPL wins even though he has been in twice as many SPLs
Checkmater: UR --> VR Council
Has 2 SPL wins in 1 SPL
Kylecole: VR Council --> UR
has a receding hairline
Checkmater: UR --> VR Council
has a full head of hair
Laga: VR Council --> UR
Calls himself Doubles Jesus because he compares his year long hiatus to Jesus returning from the dead. Story in Bible says Jesus only stayed around for 3 days then went back to being dead; that is the same number of battles Laga plays before getting benched.
Checkmater: UR --> VR Council
Calls himself checkmater because:
"When I was around 8 or so, I signed up for a online chess playing system called "Internet Chess Club", or "ICC" for short. I tried to go with "checkmater" but that was taken, so I added a 75 because it was my favourite number at the time.":/
Majorbowman: VR Council --> UR
I'm 2-0 against him when he brings Azu+Jirachi
Checkmater: UR --> VR Council
I've never beat when he brings Azu+Jirachi. (please dont bring it this week when we fight for ssnls)
Memoric: VR Council --> UR
Too afraid to use High Jump Kick
Checkmater: UR Council --> VR Council
Isn't afraid of anything. He doesn't even use Protect!
SamVGC: VR Council --> UR
Loses to timer in SPL because he takes too long to think
Checkmater: UR --> VR Council
Loses to Blingas in SPL because he moves too fast and doesn't think (at least he had a shot)
Shaian: VR Council --> UR
Says he is black even though he isn't.
Checkmater: UR --> VR Council
Says he is asian and really is. Just knocked Shaian out of ssnls.
Different play style:
Different perspective:
mate!
Necrozma Tier 3 --> Tier 4
This mon was hot at the very beginning because people forgot about Taunt, Roar, Haze, Killing it before it gets a chance. Also when you run stored power with 3 status moves you are shit with out the boosts. At least Cress can still Icy Wind.
Cresselia UR --> Tier 3
This mon's viability didnt drop at all. Take a look at my latest ssnl win to see it sweeping with CM. Bulky, Icy Wind, TR, Moonlight, ect, so many way to utilize this mon that it should no way be UR
Has half as many SPL wins even though he has been in twice as many SPLs
Checkmater: UR --> VR Council
Has 2 SPL wins in 1 SPL
Kylecole: VR Council --> UR
has a receding hairline
Checkmater: UR --> VR Council
has a full head of hair
Laga: VR Council --> UR
Calls himself Doubles Jesus because he compares his year long hiatus to Jesus returning from the dead. Story in Bible says Jesus only stayed around for 3 days then went back to being dead; that is the same number of battles Laga plays before getting benched.
Checkmater: UR --> VR Council
Calls himself checkmater because:
"When I was around 8 or so, I signed up for a online chess playing system called "Internet Chess Club", or "ICC" for short. I tried to go with "checkmater" but that was taken, so I added a 75 because it was my favourite number at the time.":/
Majorbowman: VR Council --> UR
I'm 2-0 against him when he brings Azu+Jirachi
Checkmater: UR --> VR Council
I've never beat when he brings Azu+Jirachi. (please dont bring it this week when we fight for ssnls)
Memoric: VR Council --> UR
Too afraid to use High Jump Kick
Checkmater: UR Council --> VR Council
Isn't afraid of anything. He doesn't even use Protect!
SamVGC: VR Council --> UR
Loses to timer in SPL because he takes too long to think
Checkmater: UR --> VR Council
Loses to Blingas in SPL because he moves too fast and doesn't think (at least he had a shot)
Shaian: VR Council --> UR
Says he is black even though he isn't.
Checkmater: UR --> VR Council
Says he is asian and really is. Just knocked Shaian out of ssnls.
Experienced player:
Different play style:
Different perspective:
mate!Necrozma Tier 3 --> Tier 4
This mon was hot at the very beginning because people forgot about Taunt, Roar, Haze, Killing it before it gets a chance. Also when you run stored power with 3 status moves you are shit with out the boosts. At least Cress can still Icy Wind.
Cresselia UR --> Tier 3
This mon's viability didnt drop at all. Take a look at my latest ssnl win to see it sweeping with CM. Bulky, Icy Wind, TR, Moonlight, ect, so many way to utilize this mon that it should no way be UR
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2 -> 1.5
Zygarde has to move up considering how damn hard it is to beat. Many common builds that rely on Intimidate from Landorus-T to check physical attackers get eaten alive by this, as EQ barely phases the behemoth with 108/121/95 defensive stats. Atm Zygarde takes advantage of the massive Heatran numbers and the still somewhat common ZardY, and punishes the lack of actual ground resists in the tier due to how shitty every grass type is. Its ability to circumvent either Wide Guard with a Tectonic Rage or status/Leech Seed with Substitute give it only a few very reliable checks at preview. My favorite set so far has been Mago DD/Thousand Arrows/Espeed/Protect, which gives it a huge chunk of recovery while maintaining ESpeed utility under Trick Room/against Tailwind.
2 -> 1.5
i know people thought tapu lele and mega mence would stop this from being a problem but lol. its just about as good as last gen and tier 2 is underselling the fuck out of it
First VR Shift of the Generation
Rotom-Wash 3 -> 4
Araquanid 4 -> UR
Thundurus-I 4 -> 3
Kangaskhan 2 -> 1.5
Suicune 4 --> 3
Talonflame UR -> 4
Vicitini UR --> 4
Hoopa-U 1 <- 1.5 -> 2 (pick one. current 1.5)
Sylveon 3 -> 4 -> UR (pick one. Currently 3)
Volcanion Tier 4 -> 3
Mega Metagross 3 -> 2
Landorus-T 1 -> 1.5
Heatran 1.5 -> 1
Ninetales-A UR -> 4
Bronzong 4 -> 3
Diancie 4-> 3
Azumarill 2 -> 3
Landorus-I 3 -> 4
Celesteela 1.5 -> 2
Amoonguss 3 -> 2
Tapu Fini 3 -> 2 -> 1.5 (pick one. currently 3)
Tapu Koko 1.5 -> 1
Changes:
Victini moves from UR to Tier 4
Mega Metagross moves from Tier 3 to Tier 2
Heatran moves from Tier 1.5 to Tier 1
Ninetales-A moves from UR to Tier 4
Bronzong moves from Tier 4 to Tier 3
Landorus-I moves from Tier 3 to Tier 4
Amoonguss moves from Tier 3 to Tier 2
Tapu Fini moves from Tier 3 to Tier 2
Sylveon moves from Tier 3 to Tier 4
Rotom-Wash 3 -> 4
kamikaze: No. This mon is still relatively solid as a mence check and twave is still a solid speed control option for a large portion of the metagame even with its nerfs. Just dont use this mon as a Tapu Fini check or it will disappoint you in that regard.
KyleCole: No. Very solid Pokemon with unique & valuable match ups. Thunder Wave, HP Ice and even Toxic are all more viable now and give wash some flexibility it never really had.
Laga: 3. Still fills a solid roll as a pivot, with Thunder Wave being a better option this gen. Typing lets it have an amazing matchup against Heatran, Mence, and Landorus-T. 3 is perfect placement considering how it admittedly cannot tank the neutral terrain boosted hits it should.
MajorBowman: No. While not as good as it was in ORAS, Rotom-W still checks popular Pokemon like Landorus-T and Heatran very well. Salamence being free makes Rotom even better too, and a lot have been dropping Will-O-Wisp for Thunder Wave as a means of speed control. I don’t think Rotom should be any lower than 3, it’s still a pretty solid Pokemon when used on the right team.
Memoric: No lul, it’s still pretty effective as a pivot. Its typing’s p nifty for checking the likes of Mence, Lando, and Tran, while TWave is really nifty.
SamVGC: Rotom-W as 3 feels like a perfect spot, not as good as it once was but still a really solid pick.
shaian: nah. same reasons as jake. L E V I T A T E.
KyleCole: No. Very solid Pokemon with unique & valuable match ups. Thunder Wave, HP Ice and even Toxic are all more viable now and give wash some flexibility it never really had.
Laga: 3. Still fills a solid roll as a pivot, with Thunder Wave being a better option this gen. Typing lets it have an amazing matchup against Heatran, Mence, and Landorus-T. 3 is perfect placement considering how it admittedly cannot tank the neutral terrain boosted hits it should.
MajorBowman: No. While not as good as it was in ORAS, Rotom-W still checks popular Pokemon like Landorus-T and Heatran very well. Salamence being free makes Rotom even better too, and a lot have been dropping Will-O-Wisp for Thunder Wave as a means of speed control. I don’t think Rotom should be any lower than 3, it’s still a pretty solid Pokemon when used on the right team.
Memoric: No lul, it’s still pretty effective as a pivot. Its typing’s p nifty for checking the likes of Mence, Lando, and Tran, while TWave is really nifty.
SamVGC: Rotom-W as 3 feels like a perfect spot, not as good as it once was but still a really solid pick.
shaian: nah. same reasons as jake. L E V I T A T E.
Araquanid 4 -> UR
kamikaze: Abstain
KyleCole: Abstain. Solid on paper and good as hell vs TR and rain but in practice :/
Laga: 4. Araquanid definitely has viability, no question. It hits very hard against neutral targets, and also has a decent typing taking the ability into account. Sure it’s weak as hell to the strongest offensive threat in the tier, but that’s why it’s in 4.
MajorBowman: No. Have you done any Liquidation calcs? They’re insane.
Memoric: No. This boy’s actually a monster, the mad Special D lets it face off against a lot of neutral targets and the Fire MU is ace. Liquidation’s the POWER too.
SamVGC: No way, while 4 is definitely where it will stay its definitely deserving of that spot. Provides utility and some insane offensive calcs.
shaian:No what the hell?
KyleCole: Abstain. Solid on paper and good as hell vs TR and rain but in practice :/
Laga: 4. Araquanid definitely has viability, no question. It hits very hard against neutral targets, and also has a decent typing taking the ability into account. Sure it’s weak as hell to the strongest offensive threat in the tier, but that’s why it’s in 4.
MajorBowman: No. Have you done any Liquidation calcs? They’re insane.
Memoric: No. This boy’s actually a monster, the mad Special D lets it face off against a lot of neutral targets and the Fire MU is ace. Liquidation’s the POWER too.
SamVGC: No way, while 4 is definitely where it will stay its definitely deserving of that spot. Provides utility and some insane offensive calcs.
shaian:No what the hell?
Thundurus-I 4 -> 3
kamikaze: Abstain
KyleCole: No. Haven’t really seen this used much but that’s probably because it’s been nerfed to hell. Why risk rolls when you can run more consistent electrics like koko and zapdos.
Laga: 4. Haven’t really seen play from this that would make me convinced of the claim that bulky thund still is good. Life Orb attacker still has a niche, and I’ve seen physical Defiant put in work sure, but that’s not enough to pull it out of 4.
MajorBowman: Abstain. It’s definitely way worse now that Thunder Wave, Paralysis, Swagger, and Prankster all got independently nerfed, but I’m not sure if it’s tier 4 worse. I don’t even think I’ve seen Thundurus in a tournament match yet, I’d rather wait until people have more experience with it to make a call here.
Memoric: No. This thing hasn’t really seen much usage to justify any raise and for good reason--there’s not much reason to use it over other Koko atm, which is just better, and its prankster stuff got nerfed a bit.
SamVGC: abstain, just hasn’t really seen enough use to properly rank
shaian: abstain. Hasn’t been explored at all lmao! who nommed this?
KyleCole: No. Haven’t really seen this used much but that’s probably because it’s been nerfed to hell. Why risk rolls when you can run more consistent electrics like koko and zapdos.
Laga: 4. Haven’t really seen play from this that would make me convinced of the claim that bulky thund still is good. Life Orb attacker still has a niche, and I’ve seen physical Defiant put in work sure, but that’s not enough to pull it out of 4.
MajorBowman: Abstain. It’s definitely way worse now that Thunder Wave, Paralysis, Swagger, and Prankster all got independently nerfed, but I’m not sure if it’s tier 4 worse. I don’t even think I’ve seen Thundurus in a tournament match yet, I’d rather wait until people have more experience with it to make a call here.
Memoric: No. This thing hasn’t really seen much usage to justify any raise and for good reason--there’s not much reason to use it over other Koko atm, which is just better, and its prankster stuff got nerfed a bit.
SamVGC: abstain, just hasn’t really seen enough use to properly rank
shaian: abstain. Hasn’t been explored at all lmao! who nommed this?
Kangaskhan 2 -> 1.5
kamikaze: Yes. Super Solid mon that breaks down bulky teams and is extremely hard to ko because its able to investment in bulk now that it mainly uses Stoss as its main attack.
KyleCole: Yes. Still very solid. Stoss is bestoss idk.
Laga: 2. I think this is a good fit, but if I keep seeing it put in large amounts of work for the spot, it could easily be 1.5 in the future.
MajorBowman: Yes. Seismic Toss is broken and I’m surprised more people (including myself) aren’t using it.
Memoric: 2. It’s good and all but I don’t think it’s 1.5 level. Seismic is quite destructive but I’m still not sold on it being a metagame definer. It could very easily climb soontm tho.
SamVGC: id say 2 for the time being but this could easily move up as people figure out how to adjust to its nerfs
shaian: abstain. still a good ‘mon when built tanky, needing very little attack and speed investment to deal damage due to Seismic Toss, though it is certainly not defining the metagame in any notable way as it once did.
KyleCole: Yes. Still very solid. Stoss is bestoss idk.
Laga: 2. I think this is a good fit, but if I keep seeing it put in large amounts of work for the spot, it could easily be 1.5 in the future.
MajorBowman: Yes. Seismic Toss is broken and I’m surprised more people (including myself) aren’t using it.
Memoric: 2. It’s good and all but I don’t think it’s 1.5 level. Seismic is quite destructive but I’m still not sold on it being a metagame definer. It could very easily climb soontm tho.
SamVGC: id say 2 for the time being but this could easily move up as people figure out how to adjust to its nerfs
shaian: abstain. still a good ‘mon when built tanky, needing very little attack and speed investment to deal damage due to Seismic Toss, though it is certainly not defining the metagame in any notable way as it once did.
Suicune 4 --> 3
kamikaze: No. I would consider unranking this even since I have never seen it. Tapu Fini and Milotic have been filling its roles on teams a lot better in the current meta
KyleCole: No. t r a s h
Laga: 4. It’s very underwhelming considering the spike in popularity and viability of Tapu Fini. Tailwind and Snarl are good, but they are not a good enough niches enough to beat what Tapu Fini and Milotic overshadow it with.
MajorBowman: No. Suicune wasn’t even that good in ORAS and nothing happened in SM that made it better. It’s still a decent Tailwind setter but that’s about it. It’s generally outclassed by basically every other bulky water like Milotic and Tapu Fini.
Memoric: ??? please look at laga’s explanation thank you.
SamVGC: absolutely not
shaian: no. what the hell?
KyleCole: No. t r a s h
Laga: 4. It’s very underwhelming considering the spike in popularity and viability of Tapu Fini. Tailwind and Snarl are good, but they are not a good enough niches enough to beat what Tapu Fini and Milotic overshadow it with.
MajorBowman: No. Suicune wasn’t even that good in ORAS and nothing happened in SM that made it better. It’s still a decent Tailwind setter but that’s about it. It’s generally outclassed by basically every other bulky water like Milotic and Tapu Fini.
Memoric: ??? please look at laga’s explanation thank you.
SamVGC: absolutely not
shaian: no. what the hell?
Talonflame UR -> 4
kamikaze: No
KyleCole: when the meme so supreme you let out a :O (no)
Laga: 4. I can see this thing in 4 simply due to the surprise it brings. People no longer build for it, so it’s not completely terrible. Flying Z-move also keeps Gale Wings intact for it.
MajorBowman: Yes. If I’m saying Suicune should be 4 for having a reliable Tailwind I guess I should put Talonflame there too. Even though priority Brave Bird isn’t spammable anymore, you can still guarantee at least one Tailwind from Talonflame, and Supersonic Skystrike is powerful enough I guess.
Memoric: no. this is my boi and all but i don’t think being relegated to one or two (SSSS) shots now is that good
SamVGC: no, just because its fallen off the map doesn’t people will be underprepared for it, its still a bad pokemon. Just because your team doesn’t build with stunfisk in mind doesn’t make stunfisk good
shaian: lol. nice 1 prio attack or twind per game lmao! (no)
KyleCole: when the meme so supreme you let out a :O (no)
Laga: 4. I can see this thing in 4 simply due to the surprise it brings. People no longer build for it, so it’s not completely terrible. Flying Z-move also keeps Gale Wings intact for it.
MajorBowman: Yes. If I’m saying Suicune should be 4 for having a reliable Tailwind I guess I should put Talonflame there too. Even though priority Brave Bird isn’t spammable anymore, you can still guarantee at least one Tailwind from Talonflame, and Supersonic Skystrike is powerful enough I guess.
Memoric: no. this is my boi and all but i don’t think being relegated to one or two (SSSS) shots now is that good
SamVGC: no, just because its fallen off the map doesn’t people will be underprepared for it, its still a bad pokemon. Just because your team doesn’t build with stunfisk in mind doesn’t make stunfisk good
shaian: lol. nice 1 prio attack or twind per game lmao! (no)
Vicitini UR --> 4
kamikaze: Yes. An actually solid fire that checks Zard Psy Spam very well. I have been enjoying a Special AV set with Glaciate and Blue Flare
KyleCole: no. I have never seen victini win a game. Sorry Bowman
Laga: 4. I’d vote 3 if i could honestly. It’s such a good check to Psychic-spam it’s ridiculous. Acess to two amazing types of Speed Control helps as well: TR and Glaciate, something that also deals huge damage to the main Intimidate users of the tier, and bypasses redirection.
MajorBowman: Yes but only because it’s cute af. And also because it has some neat tools and solid typing to take on a few threats like Deo/Lele and Metagross. But if Victini getting on the VR means I have to change my avatar then my vote changes to no.
Memoric: yes, solid fire that can keep in check stuff while also being a good fire. One of the few fires not totally outclassed by tran lol! Glaciate’s nifty
SamVGC: yea i dont see why not, its a fire type that isn’t named charizard or heatran and thats honestly really valuable on some teams. Cool coverage too
shaian: yes. good range of attacks that synergize well in the current meta. being able to stack speed control and numerous coverage options such as Fire, Ice, Psychic, and Electric all in one slot is actually very handy.
KyleCole: no. I have never seen victini win a game. Sorry Bowman
Laga: 4. I’d vote 3 if i could honestly. It’s such a good check to Psychic-spam it’s ridiculous. Acess to two amazing types of Speed Control helps as well: TR and Glaciate, something that also deals huge damage to the main Intimidate users of the tier, and bypasses redirection.
MajorBowman: Yes but only because it’s cute af. And also because it has some neat tools and solid typing to take on a few threats like Deo/Lele and Metagross. But if Victini getting on the VR means I have to change my avatar then my vote changes to no.
Memoric: yes, solid fire that can keep in check stuff while also being a good fire. One of the few fires not totally outclassed by tran lol! Glaciate’s nifty
SamVGC: yea i dont see why not, its a fire type that isn’t named charizard or heatran and thats honestly really valuable on some teams. Cool coverage too
shaian: yes. good range of attacks that synergize well in the current meta. being able to stack speed control and numerous coverage options such as Fire, Ice, Psychic, and Electric all in one slot is actually very handy.
Hoopa-U 1 <- 1.5 -> 2 (pick one. current 1.5)
kamikaze: 1.5. Looks like we are all echoing Laga
KyleCole: 1.5 Good ass mon. Not perfect like mence/rachi/lando so im not putting it in 1 but its at the top of 1.5. Strong in TR or as a scarfer, and gets the coverage to OHKO pretty much w/e you want.
Laga: 1.5. This is quintessence of 1.5 tier. It’s got a horrible speed tier, all it’s sets bring drawbacks as well as attributes, and it’s overall extremely strong at cleaning, but just has an unacceptable Defense stat for such a middling speed tier.
MajorBowman: Remain in 1.5. Pretty much agree with everything Laga said, Hoopa seems like the exact definition of what 1.5 is. It can be extremely threatening but it also has some glaring weaknesses.
Memoric: 1.5 ^^
SamVGC: 1.5 is perfect, can take over games easily but its flaws are definitely noticeable
shaian: remain 1.5. see laga’s post.
KyleCole: 1.5 Good ass mon. Not perfect like mence/rachi/lando so im not putting it in 1 but its at the top of 1.5. Strong in TR or as a scarfer, and gets the coverage to OHKO pretty much w/e you want.
Laga: 1.5. This is quintessence of 1.5 tier. It’s got a horrible speed tier, all it’s sets bring drawbacks as well as attributes, and it’s overall extremely strong at cleaning, but just has an unacceptable Defense stat for such a middling speed tier.
MajorBowman: Remain in 1.5. Pretty much agree with everything Laga said, Hoopa seems like the exact definition of what 1.5 is. It can be extremely threatening but it also has some glaring weaknesses.
Memoric: 1.5 ^^
SamVGC: 1.5 is perfect, can take over games easily but its flaws are definitely noticeable
shaian: remain 1.5. see laga’s post.
Sylveon 3 -> 4 -> UR (pick one. Currently 3)
kamikaze: 4. Its definitely still viable that I wouldnt drop it to UR yet
KyleCole: 3. It still do what it do. Specs is good.
Laga: 4. I’d consider this 4. Its most viable set is, in my opinion, SubCM, which is very niche to use over Tapu Fini. It is, however, much more threatening in Trick Room and at +1, which in some cases fills the roll better than Fini.
MajorBowman: Yes. Definitely still viable so I’d never drop it to UR, but CM Tapu Fini is pretty much objectively better than CM Sylveon, and Specs just doesn’t hit as hard as it needs to after the Pixilate nerf.
Memoric: 4, it’s just too damn slow and the nerfed made it damn weaker. CM Sylv got outclassed by CM Fini too jajaja
SamVGC: i’d say go to 4, fini is just kinda better at the cm thing but it still can be used on the right team
shaian: 4. hyper voice is still a good move but pixilate nerf hurts it.
KyleCole: 3. It still do what it do. Specs is good.
Laga: 4. I’d consider this 4. Its most viable set is, in my opinion, SubCM, which is very niche to use over Tapu Fini. It is, however, much more threatening in Trick Room and at +1, which in some cases fills the roll better than Fini.
MajorBowman: Yes. Definitely still viable so I’d never drop it to UR, but CM Tapu Fini is pretty much objectively better than CM Sylveon, and Specs just doesn’t hit as hard as it needs to after the Pixilate nerf.
Memoric: 4, it’s just too damn slow and the nerfed made it damn weaker. CM Sylv got outclassed by CM Fini too jajaja
SamVGC: i’d say go to 4, fini is just kinda better at the cm thing but it still can be used on the right team
shaian: 4. hyper voice is still a good move but pixilate nerf hurts it.
Volcanion Tier 4 -> 3
kamikaze: 4. It has a hard time competing with Zard or Heatran for a team slot and doesnt offer as many key resists as heatran (particularly psychic and flying and being weak to electric unlike tran). Water Fire coverage is still really solid but it def needs more support than last gen
KyleCole: 4. Copy paste what laga said.
Laga: 4. I don’t find this pokemon efficient at all this gen. It’s still got some good niches, but it’s almost impossible to find a position in which it would be better than just having a Heatran.
MajorBowman: No. The first time I saw this thing used in SM is when Zach used it in SPL. I thought Volcanion was overrated in ORAS and it only got worse in SM.
Memoric: No. Its SpD is hurting it a LOT and Tran is kinda like this but better from a metagame perspective
SamVGC: id say 3, its still a fire that soft checks rain and z moves let it use its item slot better. Has a lot of drawbacks but i think its tier 3
shaian: nah homie nah. Thicc fires options are almost always better off being tranner or zard cuz better resists / immunes overall though not the worst mon with some uses left.
KyleCole: 4. Copy paste what laga said.
Laga: 4. I don’t find this pokemon efficient at all this gen. It’s still got some good niches, but it’s almost impossible to find a position in which it would be better than just having a Heatran.
MajorBowman: No. The first time I saw this thing used in SM is when Zach used it in SPL. I thought Volcanion was overrated in ORAS and it only got worse in SM.
Memoric: No. Its SpD is hurting it a LOT and Tran is kinda like this but better from a metagame perspective
SamVGC: id say 3, its still a fire that soft checks rain and z moves let it use its item slot better. Has a lot of drawbacks but i think its tier 3
shaian: nah homie nah. Thicc fires options are almost always better off being tranner or zard cuz better resists / immunes overall though not the worst mon with some uses left.
Mega Metagross 3 -> 2
kamikaze: 2. Solid Check to Mence and PsySpam and hits like a truck with PsyTerrain boosted Zen’s if you have a partner Lele. It has notable issues with Rachi and Aegis which prevent it from going anywhere higher but its much better than a lot of Tier 2 mons
KyleCole: 3. Getting reamed by every steel is bad. Like real bad. If you’re playing a team with Jirachi or Aegislash or even Subtran you’re asking to lose once you send in megagross. Regular gross with Groundium seems superior.
Laga: 2. Mega Metagross is actually really strong. Ice Punch covers a lot, but I think the Substitute dual STAB set is the best one currently. It sets up on basically everything popular it can’t chunk hugely (Rachi, Cele, Mence), and the only real counter is Aegislash.
MajorBowman: Yes. Metagross is a pretty solid check to Psychic spam and beats down Mega Salamence pretty hard. Its STABs are still pretty potent as well, and if you can eliminate opposing Steels it can clean up.
Memoric: Yes. Being able to be a strong beast while also being able to be a defensive tool against the likes of Deo-A is really really nifty. Checks MegaMence too if it’s not running some secret techs (Fire Blast)
SamVGC: 3 seems fine, while it does a lot in theory it just loses to every other steel and gets redirected into oblivion by jirachi
shaian: yeah (see laga / bowman) but it’s ugly.
KyleCole: 3. Getting reamed by every steel is bad. Like real bad. If you’re playing a team with Jirachi or Aegislash or even Subtran you’re asking to lose once you send in megagross. Regular gross with Groundium seems superior.
Laga: 2. Mega Metagross is actually really strong. Ice Punch covers a lot, but I think the Substitute dual STAB set is the best one currently. It sets up on basically everything popular it can’t chunk hugely (Rachi, Cele, Mence), and the only real counter is Aegislash.
MajorBowman: Yes. Metagross is a pretty solid check to Psychic spam and beats down Mega Salamence pretty hard. Its STABs are still pretty potent as well, and if you can eliminate opposing Steels it can clean up.
Memoric: Yes. Being able to be a strong beast while also being able to be a defensive tool against the likes of Deo-A is really really nifty. Checks MegaMence too if it’s not running some secret techs (Fire Blast)
SamVGC: 3 seems fine, while it does a lot in theory it just loses to every other steel and gets redirected into oblivion by jirachi
shaian: yeah (see laga / bowman) but it’s ugly.
Landorus-T 1 -> 1.5
kamikaze: No. I used to feel like it may be weak member compared to the other tier 1 mons but after building and playing a lot more it is def still solid just like last gen. Scarf Lando is also one of the most consistent checks to Tapu Koko in the entire tier.
KyleCole: um. No???????? tf
Laga: 1. I’m giving this a few more rounds. It’s still an amazing mon, but it might become my opinion in the future that it is only worthy of 1.5.
MajorBowman: No. Lando is still a DOU staple. Reintroduction of Mega Salamence isn’t great for it, but I think it’s still one of the best Pokemon in the tier.
Memoric: <question mark question mark question mark> this thing is capable of being a bitch to the metagame with either Scarf or AV, has good mus across the board and keeps beasts like Zygarde and MegaMence (set dependent) at bay. 1 or riot.
SamVGC: absolutely 1, intimidate is the best ability in the game and there are only 2.5 intimidate pokemon usable in dou, this being one of the best and most versatile
shaian: no. what the heck? still a top 5 pokemon in the tier.
KyleCole: um. No???????? tf
Laga: 1. I’m giving this a few more rounds. It’s still an amazing mon, but it might become my opinion in the future that it is only worthy of 1.5.
MajorBowman: No. Lando is still a DOU staple. Reintroduction of Mega Salamence isn’t great for it, but I think it’s still one of the best Pokemon in the tier.
Memoric: <question mark question mark question mark> this thing is capable of being a bitch to the metagame with either Scarf or AV, has good mus across the board and keeps beasts like Zygarde and MegaMence (set dependent) at bay. 1 or riot.
SamVGC: absolutely 1, intimidate is the best ability in the game and there are only 2.5 intimidate pokemon usable in dou, this being one of the best and most versatile
shaian: no. what the heck? still a top 5 pokemon in the tier.
Heatran 1.5 -> 1
kamikaze: Abstain. I can see it in either
KyleCole: no. totally shut down vs rain. Tier 1 mons should be (imo) pokes that you can reasonably expect to have a break even MU or better against any viable team and Heatran doesn’t quite fit that mold.
Laga: 1. This Pokemon is insane at the moment in this metagame. The amount of pivoting, trading, cleaning, and chipping you can do with Heatran is tied first place with Salamence and Landorus-T. It completely shuts down any Charizard except HP ground, and completely fucks over Jirachi / Mence, the otherwise godly core of Doubles.
MajorBowman: No. Heatran is the most overrated Pokemon in existence imo. I think it’s great and deserves to be 1.5, but I don’t think it’s even close to tier 1. A quad weakness to one of the most common moves in doubles is really bad, and it doesn’t hit that hard at all. It’s good at constant spread damage and walling a good number of Pokemon, but I don’t think that makes it 1.
Memoric: 1, absolutely one of the best pokemon in the metagame. Has a lot of options and has a ton of good matchups, able to check mence, zardy, aegi, amoong, steela mayb, rachi, lele, other tran lol??... For an attacker, the solid bulk and defensive typing gives it a good ton of applications.
SamVGC: absolutely 1, it offers so much as one of the few viable fires, one of the best steels, and i fear for the day the majority of people catch onto how good z eruption is
shaian: abstain. eq quad weakness blows but it does a lot of things very well.
KyleCole: no. totally shut down vs rain. Tier 1 mons should be (imo) pokes that you can reasonably expect to have a break even MU or better against any viable team and Heatran doesn’t quite fit that mold.
Laga: 1. This Pokemon is insane at the moment in this metagame. The amount of pivoting, trading, cleaning, and chipping you can do with Heatran is tied first place with Salamence and Landorus-T. It completely shuts down any Charizard except HP ground, and completely fucks over Jirachi / Mence, the otherwise godly core of Doubles.
MajorBowman: No. Heatran is the most overrated Pokemon in existence imo. I think it’s great and deserves to be 1.5, but I don’t think it’s even close to tier 1. A quad weakness to one of the most common moves in doubles is really bad, and it doesn’t hit that hard at all. It’s good at constant spread damage and walling a good number of Pokemon, but I don’t think that makes it 1.
Memoric: 1, absolutely one of the best pokemon in the metagame. Has a lot of options and has a ton of good matchups, able to check mence, zardy, aegi, amoong, steela mayb, rachi, lele, other tran lol??... For an attacker, the solid bulk and defensive typing gives it a good ton of applications.
SamVGC: absolutely 1, it offers so much as one of the few viable fires, one of the best steels, and i fear for the day the majority of people catch onto how good z eruption is
shaian: abstain. eq quad weakness blows but it does a lot of things very well.
Ninetales-A UR -> 4
kamikaze: 4. Scarf Tales is pretty dope since it outspeeds everything in the entire tier and beats a lot of notable ice weak mons. The more supportive set has also seen some success in SPL
KyleCole: 4. Seems ok.
Laga: 4. I got fucked over by it this week in SPL. I’m honestly convinced based on that. Encore and Aurora Veil are amazing moveslots.
MajorBowman: Sure I guess. I don’t think Ninetales is great but it does have some neat options, and Ice is a valuable attacking type.
Memoric: 4, this is a paid ad
SamVGC: i guess, offers support and fast ice which is pretty valuable
shaian: yeah, it’s the closest i’ll ever get to having vulpix on here. nice move options and fast ice is always nice with zygarde, lando and mence running around.
KyleCole: 4. Seems ok.
Laga: 4. I got fucked over by it this week in SPL. I’m honestly convinced based on that. Encore and Aurora Veil are amazing moveslots.
MajorBowman: Sure I guess. I don’t think Ninetales is great but it does have some neat options, and Ice is a valuable attacking type.
Memoric: 4, this is a paid ad
SamVGC: i guess, offers support and fast ice which is pretty valuable
shaian: yeah, it’s the closest i’ll ever get to having vulpix on here. nice move options and fast ice is always nice with zygarde, lando and mence running around.
Bronzong 4 -> 3
kamikaze: Abstain
KyleCole: 4. Needs to win some shit.
Laga: 3. Z-TR Zong is so insanely hard to deal with for most teams, especially if the team can reset Electric / Misty Terrain. Hypnosis with 80% accuracy hits all Pokemon in the tier, and it’s incredibly good at not just setting Trick Room, but also bringing free turns.
MajorBowman: Abstain. Don’t really have enough experience seeing or using Bronzong to make a call here, I could see it potentially reaching 3 if it picks up.
Memoric: 3, this thing’s a fucker with ZTR. Accurate Hypnosis in TR is honestly really dangerous for controlling momentum and can bring about some game-ending opportunities
SamVGC: based on ter descriptions id go 3, but i dont think fini/koko use is dying down any time soon and that severely hampers anything zong does
shaian: 3. cool ass typing and options tho.
KyleCole: 4. Needs to win some shit.
Laga: 3. Z-TR Zong is so insanely hard to deal with for most teams, especially if the team can reset Electric / Misty Terrain. Hypnosis with 80% accuracy hits all Pokemon in the tier, and it’s incredibly good at not just setting Trick Room, but also bringing free turns.
MajorBowman: Abstain. Don’t really have enough experience seeing or using Bronzong to make a call here, I could see it potentially reaching 3 if it picks up.
Memoric: 3, this thing’s a fucker with ZTR. Accurate Hypnosis in TR is honestly really dangerous for controlling momentum and can bring about some game-ending opportunities
SamVGC: based on ter descriptions id go 3, but i dont think fini/koko use is dying down any time soon and that severely hampers anything zong does
shaian: 3. cool ass typing and options tho.
Diancie 4-> 3
kamikaze: Abstain
KyleCole: 4 I have never seen a diancie win.
Laga: 4. Have seen about one or two games where this thing pulled proper weight. Diancie is so much better on paper than it actually is in game.
MajorBowman: No. Diamond Storm buff is cool but it still does 0 damage and is kinda dead weight once it sets up TR.
Memoric: 4, this is cool but mostly unused
SamVGC: no, passive asf and its typing isnt really great
shaian: abstain. haven’t seen it used much outside of checkmater but he has put it to good use.
KyleCole: 4 I have never seen a diancie win.
Laga: 4. Have seen about one or two games where this thing pulled proper weight. Diancie is so much better on paper than it actually is in game.
MajorBowman: No. Diamond Storm buff is cool but it still does 0 damage and is kinda dead weight once it sets up TR.
Memoric: 4, this is cool but mostly unused
SamVGC: no, passive asf and its typing isnt really great
shaian: abstain. haven’t seen it used much outside of checkmater but he has put it to good use.
Azumarill 2 -> 3
kamikaze: No. this mon is still a massive threat even with Psychic Terrain being around
KyleCole: ???????????????????no?????????????????????
Laga: Must’ve skipped this one in my original votes because the proposal necessarily involved the use of heavy drugs. To rephrase, no.
MajorBowman: No. Azumarill seems criminally underused right now. There are a few new checks to Azumarill in SM (Mega Salamence, Tapu Bulu, Psychic Terrain), but it still has the potential to sweep once its checks are weakened or eliminated.
Memoric: i hope the weed market at your place gets a price hike
SamVGC: absolutely not lmao
shaian: no what the hell?
KyleCole: ???????????????????no?????????????????????
Laga: Must’ve skipped this one in my original votes because the proposal necessarily involved the use of heavy drugs. To rephrase, no.
MajorBowman: No. Azumarill seems criminally underused right now. There are a few new checks to Azumarill in SM (Mega Salamence, Tapu Bulu, Psychic Terrain), but it still has the potential to sweep once its checks are weakened or eliminated.
Memoric: i hope the weed market at your place gets a price hike
SamVGC: absolutely not lmao
shaian: no what the hell?
Landorus-I 3 -> 4
kamikaze: Abstain
KyleCole: 3. Landorus I has great matchups against pretty much any “standard” kind of team you want to throw together with enough coverage to mix it up and stay unpredictable. If you want to go against the grain stop using gastrodon and genesect and start using lando-i.
Laga: 4. Landorus-T is simply better. Even if you want to run a more specially based set.
MajorBowman: Yes. One time I built a team around Landorus-I but then realized that team was a lot better if I just changed it to Lando-T.
Memoric: 4, lowkey blows. Hell, I’d say even Lando-T is better at special attacking than this as that thing can actually matchup its way to victory with its utility; this thing can just die. Still strong vs slower comps tho! (unless they tr in which case you wish you just used lando-t,,,)
SamVGC: yea this thing kinda blows lmao
shaian: yeah, it means u cant use -T.
KyleCole: 3. Landorus I has great matchups against pretty much any “standard” kind of team you want to throw together with enough coverage to mix it up and stay unpredictable. If you want to go against the grain stop using gastrodon and genesect and start using lando-i.
Laga: 4. Landorus-T is simply better. Even if you want to run a more specially based set.
MajorBowman: Yes. One time I built a team around Landorus-I but then realized that team was a lot better if I just changed it to Lando-T.
Memoric: 4, lowkey blows. Hell, I’d say even Lando-T is better at special attacking than this as that thing can actually matchup its way to victory with its utility; this thing can just die. Still strong vs slower comps tho! (unless they tr in which case you wish you just used lando-t,,,)
SamVGC: yea this thing kinda blows lmao
shaian: yeah, it means u cant use -T.
Celesteela 1.5 -> 2
kamikaze: Abstain
KyleCole: heck no celesteela is top 5. This mon just wins games from preview even if you have 2 checks/counters.
Laga: 1.5. Celesteela is still one of the premier Steel tanks in the metagame. Much more focused on late game scenarios with the clutch Leech Seed stall, SpD boosts, and Wide Guard (or Sub). It’s more of a solo pokemon than Rachi, and a more passive one than Heatran, but it still pulls its weight.
MajorBowman: Yes. It’s not that hard to break through if you conserve your checks, and it has a lot of natural checks that end up on teams anyway. It also has a serious moveslot issue since you risk being walled without Flamethrower, you still want Sub and Seed to effectively stall games out, Wide Guard is a great move, and Heavy Slam and Protect are basically necessary.
Memoric: abstain, while i think taking this thing out is a bitch and can restrict some while building, it’s a bit of a downer in practice with its passiveness. Meh, i dont like abstaining but alas
SamVGC: i think its fine where it is, it has more sets than people realize and i think it will only get better as time goes on and people figure out how to build with it
shaian: yeah. kinda a dick if u let it be but that’s not on steela.
KyleCole: heck no celesteela is top 5. This mon just wins games from preview even if you have 2 checks/counters.
Laga: 1.5. Celesteela is still one of the premier Steel tanks in the metagame. Much more focused on late game scenarios with the clutch Leech Seed stall, SpD boosts, and Wide Guard (or Sub). It’s more of a solo pokemon than Rachi, and a more passive one than Heatran, but it still pulls its weight.
MajorBowman: Yes. It’s not that hard to break through if you conserve your checks, and it has a lot of natural checks that end up on teams anyway. It also has a serious moveslot issue since you risk being walled without Flamethrower, you still want Sub and Seed to effectively stall games out, Wide Guard is a great move, and Heavy Slam and Protect are basically necessary.
Memoric: abstain, while i think taking this thing out is a bitch and can restrict some while building, it’s a bit of a downer in practice with its passiveness. Meh, i dont like abstaining but alas
SamVGC: i think its fine where it is, it has more sets than people realize and i think it will only get better as time goes on and people figure out how to build with it
shaian: yeah. kinda a dick if u let it be but that’s not on steela.
Amoonguss 3 -> 2
kamikaze: Abstain
KyleCole: yep love amoonguss. Still great on and vs tr and still stomping rain. Even vs Koko/fini teams this mon does work (esp w sludge bomb)
Laga: 2. This thing is still surprisingly decent. It pretty much completely shuts down TR, as well as still redirect as it always has. Completely walls Koko, Bulu, and Fini, as well as bring a decent matchup to Rachi.
MajorBowman: Yes. Wasn’t a huge fan at first, but seeing it get some use in SPL made me realize it’s still a threat. People stopped running checks to it (like grass types or goggles) so a lot of times it can freely sleep entire teams if there’s no anti-sleep terrain up. Still a pretty great check to TR as well for that reason.
Memoric: 2, could be useful. The typing can check stuff and redirection is never wrong
SamVGC: yea i think 2 is fine, despite spore being cockblocked by electric/misty terrain it still functions as a really solid check to both fini and koko
shaian: 2. Y’all sleepin on ya shroom had a good snoooooze?
KyleCole: yep love amoonguss. Still great on and vs tr and still stomping rain. Even vs Koko/fini teams this mon does work (esp w sludge bomb)
Laga: 2. This thing is still surprisingly decent. It pretty much completely shuts down TR, as well as still redirect as it always has. Completely walls Koko, Bulu, and Fini, as well as bring a decent matchup to Rachi.
MajorBowman: Yes. Wasn’t a huge fan at first, but seeing it get some use in SPL made me realize it’s still a threat. People stopped running checks to it (like grass types or goggles) so a lot of times it can freely sleep entire teams if there’s no anti-sleep terrain up. Still a pretty great check to TR as well for that reason.
Memoric: 2, could be useful. The typing can check stuff and redirection is never wrong
SamVGC: yea i think 2 is fine, despite spore being cockblocked by electric/misty terrain it still functions as a really solid check to both fini and koko
shaian: 2. Y’all sleepin on ya shroom had a good snoooooze?
Tapu Fini 3 -> 2 -> 1.5 (pick one. currently 3)
kamikaze: 1.5. CM Fini is absurdly threatening and easy as to setup thanks to that wonderful defensive typing. Prime setup targets include common threats like Heatran, Milotic, and even Aegislash. And after a CM or 2 its even able to beat out some of its checks such as Tapu Koko. The amount of physical attackers in the tier are running thin as well.
KyleCole: 1.5 god tier mon. second tapu to koko but only by a tiny bit.
Laga: 2. Yea this definitely fits in two. If it keeps wrecking face it might be moved to 1.5, but I don’t see it to be as immediately threatening as the primary two choices of Tapu.
MajorBowman: Remain in 2. Gonna be lazy and just say I 100% agree with Laga here.
Memoric: 2, really good actually. It’s not immediately threatening is the thing but like, if it proves to be better than this this can easily rise.
SamVGC: 1.5, tier lacks physical attackers that break it without being bad pokemon (see: tapu bulu
shaian: 2 see laga
KyleCole: 1.5 god tier mon. second tapu to koko but only by a tiny bit.
Laga: 2. Yea this definitely fits in two. If it keeps wrecking face it might be moved to 1.5, but I don’t see it to be as immediately threatening as the primary two choices of Tapu.
MajorBowman: Remain in 2. Gonna be lazy and just say I 100% agree with Laga here.
Memoric: 2, really good actually. It’s not immediately threatening is the thing but like, if it proves to be better than this this can easily rise.
SamVGC: 1.5, tier lacks physical attackers that break it without being bad pokemon (see: tapu bulu
shaian: 2 see laga
Tapu Koko 1.5 -> 1
kamikaze: 1.5. Very threatening but doesnt always maintain its offensive firepower with all the terrain shifts
KyleCole: 1. Been saying this forever. Koko is pretty near flawless.
Laga: 1.5. Yea it’s fast, yea it hurts, but it doesn’t oneshot the entire tier. It doesn’t oneshot Lele, Heatran, Salamence, Rachi, or Landorus-T, and mostly serves as huge offensive pressure rather than a bomb like Lele. It’s good, but it is not as amazing as anything in tier 1 or Heatran.
MajorBowman: No. Maybe if it had Lele’s special attack, but the speed and terrain are really the only two things it has going for it. Not enough for tier 1 imo.
Memoric: n, it’s a huge offensive threat but not 1 level, not as strong or applicable in other aspects to make up
SamVGC: nowhere near enough for tier 1 but still threatening
shaian: remain 1.5. 95 spa is holding it back from it’s true potential (a literal god). Fuck game freak for making it a mixed attacker statwise.
KyleCole: 1. Been saying this forever. Koko is pretty near flawless.
Laga: 1.5. Yea it’s fast, yea it hurts, but it doesn’t oneshot the entire tier. It doesn’t oneshot Lele, Heatran, Salamence, Rachi, or Landorus-T, and mostly serves as huge offensive pressure rather than a bomb like Lele. It’s good, but it is not as amazing as anything in tier 1 or Heatran.
MajorBowman: No. Maybe if it had Lele’s special attack, but the speed and terrain are really the only two things it has going for it. Not enough for tier 1 imo.
Memoric: n, it’s a huge offensive threat but not 1 level, not as strong or applicable in other aspects to make up
SamVGC: nowhere near enough for tier 1 but still threatening
shaian: remain 1.5. 95 spa is holding it back from it’s true potential (a literal god). Fuck game freak for making it a mixed attacker statwise.
Changes:
Victini moves from UR to Tier 4
Mega Metagross moves from Tier 3 to Tier 2
Heatran moves from Tier 1.5 to Tier 1
Ninetales-A moves from UR to Tier 4
Bronzong moves from Tier 4 to Tier 3
Landorus-I moves from Tier 3 to Tier 4
Amoonguss moves from Tier 3 to Tier 2
Tapu Fini moves from Tier 3 to Tier 2
Sylveon moves from Tier 3 to Tier 4
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Necrozma | 3 --> 4
With Evoboost out of the picture it's pretty meh. If you're running it with Stored Power it's a monster once it gets up a few Calm Minds, but it's dead weight until then. As bulky as it is, it can still be worn down fast enough to hamper its setup, and as far as setup sweepers go there's almost always a better option. Mons like BD Azumarill, CM Fini and DD Zygarde are a lot more consistent -- the latter two of which also don't become dead weight if forced to switch out. As a Trick Room setter, it's definitely a cut below Hoopa, Jirachi and imo even Bronzong. Necrozma certainly can certainly excel given the right team and opportunity, but its use is pretty niche. iirc its winrate is pretty low right now too, but I can't say that authoritatively
Tyranitar | 3 --> 2
TTar is fat af, very powerful and pretty versatile/unpredictable in terms of what it can run. Dragon Dance, Choice Band, Weakness Policy, Assault Vest and even Darkium Z have proven to be effective sets, and it can either go slow-and-bulky to check Trick Room or a bit faster to outspeed some mid-speed threats. It has seen quite a bit of usage in SPL and its winrate seems to be pretty consistent. Most of the other Tier 3 mons are pretty linear in terms of what they can run, and in many cases they only fit on certain team styles. TTar is pretty splashable as long as you aren't running weather abusers or sashed mons, and again there are a myraid of sets TTar can run to get the most mileage on your team.
Araquanid | 4 --> 3
Like spiders irl, I feel this little guy is just misunderstood. Araquanid doesn't exactly splash onto any team, but it puts in a tonne of work when its team allows it to. It's a hard-hitting utility mon that doesn't need Trick Room to function but also makes for an excellent check/abuser of it -- most notably, Hoopa-U wants nothing to do with Araquanid. Another big draw is its ability to offer Wide Guard support to Steel-types that you'd never pair with Aegislash -- I'm talking about mons like Heatran and Metagross-Mega. Most of the prominant spread attackers in this meta are Fire or Ground types that Steels hate, and Araquanid has great matchups against all of them. It doesn't just wall Heat Waves and Earthquakes, either; it can tank those hits and deliver swift kills to the Charizards, Landoruses and Heatrans running about. Zygarde also gets walled completely by Araq unless carrying Groundium Z. I've found Metagross-Mega to be a particularly strong partner for Araquanid, since it can tank the Rock and Flying moves Araq hates and hit back things like Salamence-Mega with Ice Punch. Tier 4 implies that Araq really only has a small niche, but I think in practice Araq is a good choice on any semi-room or full-room team that requires support for a strong Steel-type. I'm sure Araq could be okay without a TR setter at all, but you should probably be at least semiroom to realize the full benefits of Araq.
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I find it rather obscure you guys Keep avoiding to give Cress a ranking, as it definitely deserves one.
If you want Cress on there so bad then nominate it; nobody is using Cress so nobody's nominated it, and just saying "where's Cress? where's Cress?" isn't going to change anything
I nom'd Cress up and necrozarma down after kami sent out votes. So they vote next time but I nom'd Cress to 3. Maybe Cress => 4 instead since its UR now
Snorlax | UR --> 4
Snorlax is being slept on imo, but then again who is it to judge?
SM blessed Snorlax with quite a few buffs and changes, including:
- Iapapa Berry's buff to a 50% recovery, which Snorlax is able to consume at 50% HP thanks to Gluttony
- A lack of good Fighting-type attackers in SM DOU, and
- Access to the new single-target Ground move High Horsepower, which makes Snorlax's overall coverage pretty solid
The other neat set I've seen includes a combination of Curse, Recycle and two attacks. The basic idea here is you gradually build bulk and power through Curse, and recover as neeeded by Recyling your Iapapa Berry. This set can be extremely tough to take down without a powerful wallbreaker on your side of the field.
...idk, I feel like Snorlax is at least as good as the other Tier 4 mons currently listed.
Gyarados to tier 4.
Some of the best mons in this game are very ice weak and having Lando with your salamence may not be ideal. Gyarados fits the niche of Lando substitute great. Gives Intimidate, beats Heatran, checks CharY with stone, many options of utility or dragon dance
Some of the best mons in this game are very ice weak and having Lando with your salamence may not be ideal. Gyarados fits the niche of Lando substitute great. Gives Intimidate, beats Heatran, checks CharY with stone, many options of utility or dragon dance
i nominate cress to 3, my first (yet unanswered) post of this thread contains just a few arguments on why cress should be on this list
We all get it, you want Cres to be Tier 3. n1n1 already nominated Cres for this round of votes. The VR council votes every two weeks or so; you'll get your answer when the next vote happens...
FloristtheBudew
I'm just tired
Nah I need my vote to happen right now. Cress is clearly so much better than anything else that it has to have a vote by itself. Anything else would only disrespect the god that is the moon duck.
Venusaur -> 3
Sleep nerf obviously isnt awesome, but I think its actually better at checking TR now since is much less prepared for sleep. Teams with 2 steels are becoming more common, but stab sludge bomb is still better than ever.
Sleep nerf obviously isnt awesome, but I think its actually better at checking TR now since is much less prepared for sleep. Teams with 2 steels are becoming more common, but stab sludge bomb is still better than ever.
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