Resource SM LC Viability Rankings v2

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Fiend

the hound.
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#1
It's an old idea. Thread is ran by Fiend, Shrug, Quote, and Corporal Levi. Artwork by Schaff.


Welcome to the LC viability ranking project. In this project, we will "tier" every Pokemon based on usefulness. An initial tier list has already been made; if you think something should be moved up or down, post in this thread with your reasoning on why, and the change may be enacted, but please make sure you have a proper understanding of the current metagame before doing so. Bad/basic posts will be deleted, and repeated offenses may be punished by infraction. However, asking questions about why certain Pokemon are ranked where they are is acceptable.

Also don't nominate a Pokemon to move up more than 2 sub rankings. There are instances where this is needed, such as when a new mechanic is discovered, but usually it is not and in fact nominations of such a large jump tend to be disagreed on by the community at large.


Viability Ranking Council
For more controversial cases, the viability ranking council will vote on the Pokemon's tiering.

Shrug
Quote
Nineage


Tier List

Without further ado, here is the initial tier list. The ranks in descending order, with the Pokemon in each rank ordered alphabetically.

S RANK
S

Diglett
Mienfoo
Vullaby

S-

Abra
Staryu
Timburr


A RANK
A+

Croagunk
Gastly
Onix
Foongus

A

Doduo
Ferroseed
Grimer-Alola
Pawniard
Shellder
Snivy
Snubbull

A-

Chinchou
Mudbray
Ponyta
Spritzee
Torchic


B RANK
B+

Aipom
Carvanha
Corphish
Drilbur
Dwebble
Elekid
Kabuto
Magnemite
Mareanie
Pumpkaboo-Super
Rufflet
Scraggy
Slowpoke
Surskit
Wynaut

B

Archen
Bunnelby
Frillish
Munchlax
Omanyte
Pancham
Tirtouga
Vulpix-Alola
Wingull
Zigzagoon

B-

Cranidos
Cottonee
Hippopotas
Houndour
Larvesta
Magby
Salandit
Skrelp
Snover
Spinarak
Taillow
Trapinch

C RANK
C+

Amaura
Bulbasaur
Buneary
Clamperl
Koffing
Meowth
Pikipek
Pumpkaboo-Small
Riolu
Rowlet
Sandshrew-Alola
Tyrunt
Venipede

C

Anorith
Axew
Darumaka
Deerling
Dratini
Goldeen
Inkay
Lileep
Mankey
Natu
Numel
Sandile
Stufful
Sandshrew
Tentacool
Trubbish


C-

Budew
Chespin
Cubchoo
Cubone
Dewpider
Exeggcute
Fletchling
Honedge
Lickitung
Mantyke
Remoraid
Stunky
Treecko
Teddiursa


BLACKLISTED, DO NOT DISCUSS:

Meowth
 
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dcae

naughty list
#2
This long awaited revamp fixed a lot of stuff that is good. However I was told to stop complaining on discord so here I am to provide input:

Nominations

Shellder to A+

I spent 30 min tryna argue this so I won't go too much in detail. To summarize, shell has very little checks due to good speed + multi hit moves, doesn't require much team support to sweep (knock off, dig, hazards) and can even beat some checks via multi hit moves crit. It sets up on most things and has bulk to take hits even without veils or screens.

Grimer-A to A

It's not a bad mon but it is Slow, has limited coverage leading it to be set up bait for dangerous stuff like Gunk, and is easily trapped by dig. It can't even trap Abra super well bc of LO HPground and sash counter. It does good stuff just not good enough to be A+ imo.

Magnemite to B+

Used to be better, isn't the best Flying check and is easily trapped by diglett unless scarfed. The common shellder uses scarf locked into flash cannon as set up bait and a lot of 50 50s occur due to onix ubiquity. Not a bad mon just not one that comes to mind instantly as a threat which is what I think a rank mons should be.

Pony to B+

Same thing as mag, not a bad mon with some nice stuff but it's not as good as it used to be since unless it's running bloom doom it gets beat by a lot of stuff. Just not one of the biggest meta threats like it used to be

B+ is filled with too much and unfortunately has some bad stuff.

Drilbur and Dwebble to B or even B-

Both mons had their heyday in the past and are relatively outclassed at stuff they do by better mons that are more versatile (specifically Kabuto and Onix respectively) they till have a niche tho ig B isn't bad.

Pumpkaboo super is criminally underrated here (TO A-)

It's the second best defensive grass type in the tier and fantastic on webs teams. Phys can be a good abra check in a pinch and it's arguably the best spinblocker in the tier. Versatile and one of the premier ground resists available in LC. Not sure why it's ranked so low.

Wynaut to B+

It's superb rn and double trappers is a very legitimate strategy. It almost always gets a kill, can check abra decently well, and the shattered psyche set is the only thing that can trap timburr properly

Cranidos to c+

It's a cute mon and it's sad to see it go but this meta is disgustingly unfriendly to it, considering ubiquity of fighting types and Onix. It is also revenged by all the prio in the tier and really just isn't a very good mon.



There's probably more stuff that I missed that I might get to later but this revamp was much needed and with my edits this list should also be much improved.

EDIT: If we consider A rank mons to be legitimate threats we think of in teambuilding then Surskit has to be A- simply bc of how good webs is and how Surskit is the best webs setter. It is a huge threat.
 
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Quote

Cautiously Optimistic
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus
LC Co-Leader
#3
This list is pretty solid but there are some things I didn't catch that I'd like to point out:

I'm not sure why Shellder was moved down when it's still as good as it's ever been. It sets up on a large portion of the meta and tears through everything quite well. It doesn't OHKO everything at +2 but it sure as hell comes close and with a touch of prior damage can just destroy everything.

I don't think Agrimer is as good as it once was. While it can still scare Abra and Gastly to an extent it can't do those consistently as well because of Abra's Counter and its 4mss issues (It wants to run KO/Jab/Fblast/Sneak/Pursuit all at once). For the time being I think it's one of the best Knock Off users in the meta but those issues and its speed hold it back. Should probably be A.

Mag can drop more. A lot more. I don't remember the last time it made any sort of impact on the metagame (very early SM????). Its job as an electric type is generally outdone by Chinchou and Elekid because of their better typings or speed, and as a Steel type Pawniard is much more threatening. I'm not really sure what sort of role it's filling right now.

Dwebble could probably move down more as well because Staryu exists. Like really, Staryu completely invalidates Dwebble's existence. It's quite sad. Ferroseed at least deters Staryu from just coming in and spinning like it doesn't exist.

I don't know if I agree with the Pumpkaboo-Super drop. I think it was doing a fine job as a spinblocker, seeing as how it not only blocks spinning but then proceeds to fuck up said spinner.

I might have more thoughts later (maybe about Elekid/some of C rank) but this list isn't so bad.
 

Kurukaito

I COULD BE BANNED!
is a Tiering Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
#4
Shellder A -> A+

Shellder just pressure 3/4 of the meta and is the best set up sweeper atm, with some support he is a monster.

Snivy A -> A-

Snivy is frail and is pressure but a lot of Pokemon in the meta like Poison types, Vull etc. He can be good but he need support to be nice.

Wynaut B -> B+ or A-

Especially rn he is usefull. Encore + Counter/Mirror Coat can easily cripple few mons like Foongus, Abra or Staryu and provide a nice support to some mons to help them to sweep.
 

Drew

formerly LitsYaBoi1337
is a Contributor to Smogon
#5
Made a list of changes:
Shellder: A+ -> A
Gastly: A -> A+
Magnemite: A -> A-
Chinchou: A -> A-
Ferroseed: A- -> A
Mudbray: A -> B+
Doduo: A- -> A
Carvanha: A- -> B+
Cophish: A- -> B+
Cottonee: A- -> B-
Dwebble: A- -> B+
Rufflet: A- -> B+
Spritzee: A- -> B+
Torchic: B+ -> A-
Hippopotas: B+ -> B-
Kabuto: B+ -> B
Omanyte: B+ -> B
Pumpkaboo-Super: B+ -> B
Tirtouga: B+ -> B
Alolan Vulpix: B+ -> B
Bunnelby: B- -> B
Frillish: C+ -> B
Amaura: B -> C+
Cranidos: B -> B-
Houndour: B -> B-
Alolan Sandshrew: B -> C+
Wingull: C- -> B
Skrelp: B -> B-
Wynaut: B- -> B
Bulbasaur: B- -> C+
Spinirak: C+ -> B-
Clamperl: B- -> C+
Pumpkaboo-Small: B- -> C+
Rowlet: C -> C+
Salandit: C -> C+
Venipede: C -> C+
Anorith: C+ -> C
Darumaka: C+ -> C
Deerling: C+ -> C
Fletchling: C+ -> C-
Honedge: C+ -> C-
Lickitung: C+ -> C-
Lileep: C+ -> C
Sandile: C+ -> C
Stufful C+ -> C
Sandshrew: C+ -> C
Tentacool: C+ -> C
Trapinch: C+ -> C
Trubbish: C+ -> C
Dewpider: C -> C-
Shellos C -> Unranked
Stunky: C -> C-
Treeko: C -> C-
Teddiursa: C -> C-
Bronzor: C- -> Unranked
D rank removed
 
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Altariel von Sweep

Life has many doors, Edd boy!
is a Smogon Media Contributor
#6
I believe that Webs right now is really threatening, and it's an archetype that everyone should be prepared for. Of course, in my opinion, having a hard check like Snivy in your team doesn't guarantee that you have absolutely won against it, it only improves your matchup. Having Sticky Web in your side means that some powerful threats that have a dissapointing base Speed, apart from Abra, but great offensive stats can wreck havoc on many teams, like Croagunk, Pawniard, Abra, Cranidos, and Wynaut, which I will do its nomination in base to its performance on them. And if you have some sort of hazard removal like spinning, Pumpkaboo-Super stops it and laughs at you, which it makes me feel disagreed about its drop. You can use Defog, but Pawniard enters to the soft breeze and smacks you with a Defiant +2 Attack boost, as well as removing your own set hazards. Being this said, there it goes:

to A-. Best Web setter in the metagame, can reliably set it up against many leads, especially if it's Scarf and it's against Onix and if not, can dish out some useful damage before falling.

to B. Second best Web setter, its Poison/Bug typing helps it against Fighting-types which is pretty good, and its movepool allows it to beat many leads such as Weak Armor Onix and Kabuto with Giga Drain, Croagunk with Psychic, etc. Also, it is a great check to Snivy due to its aforementioned typing. Despite it's slower than its competitor, it has the bulk Surskit doesn't have to reliably set a second Sticky Web in case of getting rid of it. Also, it can help to keep momentum with Baton Pass.

to B+. And finally, the nomination I wanted to do throughout this post. Wynaut has become incredibly good due to its ability to remove at least one Pokémon per game. Encore + Shadow Tag is a lethal combination that can block Pokémon like Foongus, Mareanie, Staryu and Abra, to name a few, and take them out to give a invaluable support to its team, like many sweepers or setup sweepers. But, if we combine it with Webs, it can increase the number of Pokémon that can reliably take out, adding Fast Mienfoo, Pawniard, and Diglett, which it ties against it if max. Speed, being able to use Destiny Bond to take Pawniard out, while the others can be whooped with Counter.

And now, some opinions about rises/drops:

B. I disagree by the fact that it's a reliable Ground-type check as well as a pivot, and also one of the best (if so, the best) spinblocker of the metagame, being able to tear it apart afterwards. Move it to B+ again.

A. As Kurukaito exposed, it is really pressured by many Pokémon, and it requires some support to effectively work. A- at its best.

Well, this is my opinion. Get ready for counter argue if I'm wrong.
 
#7
My boi Wingull moved from C- to B in one go. I think thats the biggest move for a mon in one change we've ever seen. Deserved.

Shellder and Dwebble shouldn't have been dropped. Shellder for A+ and Dwebble should be at least A-.

New nomination, Zigzagoon for A-. This mon can straight up sweep most teams, doesn't need too much support. Its deserving of the A- rank at the very least.
 

Melon

Best Fruit
is a Tutor
#8
Grimer-A Defense:

Grime Time is still an incredible Mon in LC and absolutely deserves its A+ spot. It's pretty unarguably the single best and most consistent way to trap Gastly and Abra in this meta, both of which are huge threats right now and are not at all uncommon to face (LCPL Stats say Abra has ~30% usage and Gastly has ~16% usage). Sashbra's Counter can be played around with Fire Blast, and in the absolute worst case you still end up an Abra taken to its Focus Sash. It's got more defensive capabilities than just donking Gastbra though, as due to it's impressive 25/18/21 bulk after Eviolite it makes a solid Snivy and NP Vullaby check and it can withstand the majority of attacks from special attacks in the tier while firing off obnoxiously strong STAB Knock Offs or Gunk Shots. Grimer-A is extremely powerful and annoying to switch into, with Onix and kinda Croagunk being the Mons in S through A- that are able to switch into Fire Blast variants of Grimer-A and not be extremely threatened by the next hit, and in B+ or lower only really Ground-types can stomach switching into this monster. This power combined with Poison Touch makes Grime Time difficult to set up on, really only being taken advantage of by Croagunk (Which still takes 40% from Knock Off) and Bulk Up Timburr, a set that is significantly less common in SM than it was in ORAS. I've found that the speed issue brought up above is really not a big deal as it doesn't stop Grime Time from completing its role on teams.

Grimer-A's only real issue is that it gets trapped by Dig, but Dig is fucking broken anyway.


Snivy Defense:

Snivy is fantastic right now for a myriad of reasons, and oddly enough those were reasons Kurukaito and Altariel von Sweep stated when trying to nominate it to move down. AvS harped on Webs and how great it is in the current meta, and Webs popularity makes Snivy significantly better. Snivy is arguably the single most threatening Mon to Webs teams as it gains +1 speed from them thanks to Contrary, often forcing Webs teams to completely forgo getting them down for the duration of the match. The power to mostly invalidate an entire playstyle at team preview is incredible, especially one that sees a solid amount of usage (Webs was used nearly 10% of all teams used in SM for LCPL according to LCPL Stats). Kurukaito stated that Snivy needs support, which is true, but the support needed for Snivy to put in massive amounts of work is shockingly minimal. Really, Stealth Rock and an occasional Knock Off is the extent of what Snivy needs to break through its switch-ins, and Snivy can even be its own support with Glare and Knock Off. Standard Offensive Vullaby dies to Leaf Storm into HP Ice after Rocks, unless you get screwed hard by rolls, while the same goes for a Knocked Off Foongus, and other Poison-types such as Gastly and Croagunk are not long term switch-ins at all. Also, with an Eviolite Snivy is able to hit 21/18/18 defenses, which while not jaw-dropping is enough to tank some hits and allow it to put in work throughout the duration of the game. Snivy can also run Berry Juice sets on more offensive teams, or utilize Z-Wring Out sets to blow back "counters" with nothing more than rocks down. All of these reasons really show why Snivy is definitely an A-rank Mon.
 
#9

Meowth from C+ -> B-

Lets start this off by saying Meowth =/= Aipom.
They do different things despite having some overlap in certain roles.
Meowth is a unique pokemon in LC. It is the only pokemon with the combo of STAB technician boosted Fake Out + Feint. Due to this unique combination Meowth can revenge or force out setup sweepers such as shellder, offensive behemoths such as Abra, and any scarfer not named pawniard or gastly. Meowth can also run moves such as Double Edge to hit switchins hard, as well as coverage such as Aerial Ace, Water Pulse, or Hidden Power Fighting which all hit mons normal coverage struggles with, such as pawnaird and onix. What makes Meowth so good in my opinion is the fact that it can force switches on scarfers very easily. Lets say they have scarfoo that kills one of your mons which is a common and inveitable circumstance if your fight resist gets too worn down which is all too common with snubbull. You send out Meowth. 2 things can happen here. 1. They stay in and get killed or 2. They switch out predicting you fake out. Now lets theoretically say they go into Grimer-A because its a good bulky mon that can take a fake out and probably any coverage you have like Aerial Ace pretty easily. Instead you click Double Edge. 236+ Atk Life Orb Meowth Double-Edge vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Grimer-Alola: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO. Meowth is extremely dangerous because it forces switches while being hard to switch into. Even ghost types fear knock off and double edge hits a lot of the tier extremely hard. Meowth is just the king of 1v1s if you predict right. Lets take a look at the things Meowth covers for you that would otherwise have to be prepped for defensively such as shellder and also a few other things it can kill or force out.

Forced Out / Killed By Meowth
Belly Drum Zigzagoon : If it's berry juice is already consumed you win with Fake out + Feint. If it tries to setup on you you 1hko with double edge. 236+ Atk Life Orb Meowth Double-Edge vs. 132 HP / 108 Def Zigzagoon: 21-27 (95.4 - 122.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Abra : Fake Out + Feint
Shellder at -1 defense : Fake Out + Feint
Shellder that tries to setup on you : Double Edge + Feint
Carvanha : 50/50, usually they protect so you click Feint twice. 236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Carvanha: 12-16 (63.1 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Fake Out obviously does more and would KO with Feint. The same calcs apply to Torchic as well.
Scarf Mienfoo (and almost any scarfer not named gastly or pawnaird or magnemite[snivy, chinchou, rufflet and vull after rocks, ) : Fake Out + Feint
Taillow : Fake Out + Feint
Elekid : Fake Out + Feint
Sash Protect Surskit Lead : Feint + Double Edge
Scarf Surskit Lead : Fake Out + Feint
Its worth noting here that not even sash dig can stop either surskit set from setting webs without a flinch. A 50/50 shot is a lot better than the chance of a flinch + miss chance.
SturdyJuice Onix : Fake Out + HP Fighting/Water Pulse
Weak Armor Onix : Water Pulse
WA NP Vull : Fake Out + Feint
Wingull : Fake Out + Feint

Now lets look at some common switchins to Meowth and show what it can do to them with proper prediction.
Pawnaird : 1HKOd by HP Fighting
Grimer-A: 2HKOd by Double Edge
23/14 Mienfoo : 2HKOd by Double Edge
25/16 Vullaby : 236+ Atk Life Orb Meowth Double-Edge vs. 116 HP / 80+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
Weak Armor Onix : 1HKOd by Water Pulse, 2HKOd by HP Fighting
Foongus : 236+ Atk Life Orb Meowth Double-Edge vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO or 236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Aerial Ace vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 13-18 (52 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO




Meowth gives you freedom with teambuilding, especially for offensive teams. You don't have to add a mon specifically to cover a sweeper such as WA Vull or Shellder, and you can even choost not to run speed control (though I would reccomend it). With the damage it can do to some top meta mons it easily deserves to be B- and not ranked among the likes of Riolu, Tyrunt, and Bulbasaur. If Mixed Taillow can hit B- because it can hit an onix switchin with HP Grass, with what Meowth can do to switchins and the fact they they both can hit some stuff very hard while unfortunately needing a free switchin they should be ranked together.
 
#10
Meowth can provide revenge killing support that some hyper offense teams desperately need, but that's about the only situation in which meowth would really be used. While the combination of fake out + feint is really good, meowth suffers from many drawbacks that put it at the level of the mons it shares a rank with. It's made of paper, has 4MSS, and has lacking offensive presence even with double edge, as it has to rely on predictions when revenging to threaten the bulkier mons that many teams carry, just to name a few. The combination of fake out + feint that meowth provides is mostly appreciated by hyper offense, but it doesn't really get much use outside of that playstyle.

Meowth gives you freedom with teambuilding, especially for offensive teams. You don't have to add a mon specifically to cover a sweeper such as WA Vull or Shellder, and you can even choost not to run speed control (though I would reccomend it). With the damage it can do to some top meta mons it easily deserves to be B- and not ranked among the likes of Riolu, Tyrunt, and Bulbasaur. If Mixed Taillow can hit B- because it can hit an onix switchin with HP Grass, with what Meowth can do to switchins and the fact they they both can hit some stuff very hard while unfortunately needing a free switchin they should be ranked together.
Meowth is a great blanket check for hyper offense for those pokemon, but it struggles to find a place on balance that would rather add different mons to check those threats. It is a very niche choice for a team. As I see it, meowth fits perfectly among the pokemon that you mentioned and the others that are in C-. Prankster copycat is a tool easily on the level of fake out + feint, as it can be invaluable in stopping sweepers, sweeping a weakened team sometimes, or even against web teams to copy the move sticky web. Z-Celebrate and Z-Trick or Treat can turn bulbasaur and pumpkaboo-small, respectively, into threatening sweepers. Substitute Salandit is an anti-meta choice that can pick apart unprepared teams. I don't see meowth as definitively better than any of those pokemon. Not gonna go after your last point as meowth and tailow aren't comparable.
 
#11
I don't think Snivy should move down to A-. Honestly, I don't see why it is any worse than it was before. It still is a really great sweeper because it's super quick to set up and can beat most of its checks via coverage. And it gets multiple safe set up opportunities in a match which is something not a lot of set up sweepers can say they have. Snivy has a fantastic match up versus Webs, which is one of the most threatening archetypes in the metagame, so I think the metagame has been pretty kind to it and it also has a very good matchup against Water Spam which is another successful archetype rn. Its common checks also are prone to losing to the Normalium Z set (Offensive Vulla, Foongus) especially if they have chip from Rocks. Steels like Pawniard also can't switch in safely to normal HP Fire / Ground variants as well. All in all I don't think Snivy needs so much support that it needs to drop: just Rocks which are on every team anyway, a Flying / Fire check, and maybe something to pressure w/e coverage you miss out on and you're good (esp when Onix can fill p much all of those roles well). And you still have at least 4 slots left so I don't think Snivy is worth dropping, especially using the reasoning that it requires a lot of support.

Also I think C-Rank could use some touchups, specifically some mons should drop. There are a couple of mons I may be ignorant of just because I haven't used them enough though. Here's the list (nomming all of these for a one rank drop):
  • Riolu (can't get behind why you would ever use this over Mienfoo / Timburr when you get hard walled by Ghosts, are super slow, and completely rely on getting off a free HJK to have a niche)
  • Meowth (don't worry, Meowth fanatics, I'll explain)
  • Goldeen (Flyinium Z is its only set so it's predictable and doesn't really lure anything, even switching into Electrics is risky, basically a worse physical Chinchou)
  • Trapinch (what does this beat that Diglett does not? Pawn I guess but Diglett can still win that matchup. It can't do anything against Flyings and is outsped by every single offensive Pokemon; should probably drop to C-)
Then again if someone argued these I could go either way, I just don't think these Pokemon should be so high up

For Meowth, tazz already explained a lot what I was going to say, but I would also like to add that Meowth is just a lot worse than Aipom. Aipom isn't paper-weak, has stronger STAB, is stronger in general, and still hits the exact same speed. Aipom also has a way to hit Steels which Meowth doesn't. Also the whole chart thing with the different mons Meowth can beat has been used before and is very misleading as Meowth isn't running Fake Out, Feint, Water Pulse, HP FIghting, Double-Edge, and Aerial Ace at the same time (not to mention it wants to run Knock and U-turn). So basically the only time you would use Meowth over Aipom or anything else is on HO (and Aipom can still work well there!) which isn't even that good to begin with. If anything, I think that deserves a drop, but Meowth should NOT rise.

Glad to see that my Gastly nom made it and this new VR looks pretty solid, I'm definitely excited for it!
 

Fiend

the hound.
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#12
I don't think Snivy should move down to A-. Honestly, I don't see why it is any worse than it was before. It still is a really great sweeper because it's super quick to set up and can beat most of its checks via coverage. And it gets multiple safe set up opportunities in a match which is something not a lot of set up sweepers can say they have. Snivy has a fantastic match up versus Webs, which is one of the most threatening archetypes in the metagame, so I think the metagame has been pretty kind to it and it also has a very good matchup against Water Spam which is another successful archetype rn. Its common checks also are prone to losing to the Normalium Z set (Offensive Vulla, Foongus) especially if they have chip from Rocks. Steels like Pawniard also can't switch in safely to normal HP Fire / Ground variants as well. All in all I don't think Snivy needs so much support that it needs to drop: just Rocks which are on every team anyway, a Flying / Fire check, and maybe something to pressure w/e coverage you miss out on and you're good (esp when Onix can fill p much all of those roles well). And you still have at least 4 slots left so I don't think Snivy is worth dropping, especially using the reasoning that it requires a lot of support.

Also I think C-Rank could use some touchups, specifically some mons should drop. There are a couple of mons I may be ignorant of just because I haven't used them enough though. Here's the list (nomming all of these for a one rank drop):
  • Riolu (can't get behind why you would ever use this over Mienfoo / Timburr when you get hard walled by Ghosts, are super slow, and completely rely on getting off a free HJK to have a niche)
  • Meowth (don't worry, Meowth fanatics, I'll explain)
  • Goldeen (Flyinium Z is its only set so it's predictable and doesn't really lure anything, even switching into Electrics is risky, basically a worse physical Chinchou)
  • Trapinch (what does this beat that Diglett does not? Pawn I guess but Diglett can still win that matchup. It can't do anything against Flyings and is outsped by every single offensive Pokemon; should probably drop to C-)
Then again if someone argued these I could go either way, I just don't think these Pokemon should be so high up

For Meowth, tazz already explained a lot what I was going to say, but I would also like to add that Meowth is just a lot worse than Aipom. Aipom isn't paper-weak, has stronger STAB, is stronger in general, and still hits the exact same speed. Aipom also has a way to hit Steels which Meowth doesn't. Also the whole chart thing with the different mons Meowth can beat has been used before and is very misleading as Meowth isn't running Fake Out, Feint, Water Pulse, HP FIghting, Double-Edge, and Aerial Ace at the same time (not to mention it wants to run Knock and U-turn). So basically the only time you would use Meowth over Aipom or anything else is on HO (and Aipom can still work well there!) which isn't even that good to begin with. If anything, I think that deserves a drop, but Meowth should NOT rise.

Glad to see that my Gastly nom made it and this new VR looks pretty solid, I'm definitely excited for it!
I want to respond to you specifically as you brought up C ranks and I've been focusing on those for a bit:

Riolu kinda blows and I agree with dropping it. I thought it had Z-Me First to abuse, but it doesn't and now I think it is ranked awfully high for what it is. I feel like Riolu has become the definition of a D rank, though i'm hesitant to include the D ranks over a single Pokemon.

Meowth is a revenge killer and an anti-offense Pokemon, for offense. It doesn't break walls outside of Knocking Eviolites like Aipom, it just prevents you from being swept by a Scarfer, or a Shellder, or sometimes a Speed Boost cleaner. It can also lure things though it is predictable generally, or gimmick-y if you're running HP Fie to kill Ferroseed. It should stay where it is.

Goldeen is dcae 's favorite mon right now, and with Knock Off it is irksome. It's not that good, though it has uses and isn't that bad. I don't really think it should move from its ranking whatsoever as being weak to only Grass-types is cool, but most other things about Goldeen are lackluster.

Trapinch is a very specific Pokemon which I am rather happy is overlooked a lot since it switches into things like Grimer-A and OHKOs them. tko used a fairly reliable strategy of Life Orb Abra / Life Orb Gastly / Groundium Trapinch to obliterate me in LCPL, as pretty much everything that switches into these two monsters is trapped by Trapinch. It isn't amazing, but Trapinch trades 1 for 1 with a lot of Pokemon in the metagame and traps things for specific Pokemon. However it is rather constraining with the builds it can fit on which is why it is ranked so low. Perhaps there is an argument for Trapinch not supporting enough different Pokemon to be ranked so high, but merely between Gastly, Abra, and Snivy I feel like that argument would not hold water. It sucks losing counters to Pokemon with your best counterplay being a double.

I agree with Snivy staying where it is (that's why I left it there!). Moreover, I believe if you want Surskit to rise solely due to Sticky Webs, Snivy cannot drop as it is the single most threatening Pokemon to Sticky Webs teams and is almost single handedly a counter to the them. Snivy + anything else moderately threatening to Webs (Pawniard/Gastly/Vullaby/Doduo/Wingull) is enough to simply send Webs packing.
 
#13

Aipom wallbreaks, Meowth breaks frail offensive sweepers (And shit with a dropped defense). Can we stop comparing the two of them?


Goldeen should stay where it is, Flyinium z is by far not the only set it can run (although the most prominent one). Not saying either of the sets are great, but as Fiend mentioned, only having a grass weakness is neat.


Snivy is still solid imo, for all the reasons Felines and WaterlessMelons mentioned. Keep it where it is please.


Trapinch got that small bulk niche and power that Diglett lacks to trap bulkier and slow mons. Sucks vs offense tho ig. Idk how it works tbh but sounds solid again based on what Fiend said.


Riolu I disagree on dropping. Been playing around with it recently, and while it's definitely not great, Z-Copycat is a nice niche late game strategy, and gives an accuracy boost so HJK won't miss. You can also choose coverage based on what you need (Crunch or Zen Headbutt for croa), although Riolu is admittedly frail, weak and not that great. It's not slow as fuck as stated above tho, 16 speed max is by far not bad lol. Just not yk great. I think it should stay in C+, or if you dropping it then at least C or C-. D is too much.


Spinarak to B for same reasons as AVS stated above (or below whatever you prefer)
I believe that Webs right now is really threatening, and it's an archetype that everyone should be prepared for. Of course, in my opinion, having a hard check like Snivy in your team doesn't guarantee that you have absolutely won against it, it only improves your matchup. Having Sticky Web in your side means that some powerful threats that have a dissapointing base Speed, apart from Abra, but great offensive stats can wreck havoc on many teams, like Croagunk, Pawniard, Abra, Cranidos, and Wynaut, which I will do its nomination in base to its performance on them. And if you have some sort of hazard removal like spinning, Pumpkaboo-Super stops it and laughs at you, which it makes me feel disagreed about its drop. You can use Defog, but Pawniard enters to the soft breeze and smacks you with a Defiant +2 Attack boost, as well as removing your own set hazards. Being this said, there it goes:

to B. Second best Web setter, its Poison/Bug typing helps it against Fighting-types which is pretty good, and its movepool allows it to beat many leads such as Weak Armor Onix and Kabuto with Giga Drain, Croagunk with Psychic, etc. Also, it is a great check to Snivy due to its aforementioned typing. Despite it's slower than its competitor, it has the bulk Surskit doesn't have to reliably set a second Sticky Web in case of getting rid of it. Also, it can help to keep momentum with Baton Pass.
Just want to add in Insomnia making Foongus a set up fodder. Also it's relatively great movepool et's it run physical priority oves, STAB moves, or special to wreck havoc with Hidden Power (Fight/Ground depending on what you fear), Giga Drain, Psychic or Sludge Bomb. It also gets a variety of support moves like Toxic Thread/Electroweb for Flying switch ins that are otherwise threatening to Webs.


Also Houndour. Why did it drop top B-? Houndour struggles with the many fighting types in this tier, but considering the only solid switch ins in the the tier are Munchlax and Mareanie, both being less used and less viable right now means that ones it's in it's gonna do some damage no matter what. It can also run Flame Charge with Z moves or LO trapper with Fire Blast, the latter one being my personal favourite at least. Early Bird/Flash Fire gives it many oppurtunities to switch in as well, and frequently used pokemons like Pumpkaboo, Foongus (Early Bird), Ferrothorn and Pawniards gives Houndour many oppurtunities to switch in. It's by far not great, but the power, strong STAB Priority and typing + 17 speed tier gives it a nice niche in this meta despite the fighting types. O and also if you run some attack EVs Sucker Punch oneshots diglett so hard to trap you, although not prefered usually I think?
 
#14

B+ -> A-
Surskit can be seen as a simple Sticky web setter, but it's the best in doing so. Surskit has great base speed and while scarfed it can outspeed any non-scarf users. It can also run haze to clean possible setup sweepers. Sticky webs in the current metagame is very threatening if you don't have how to deal with it. Possibly with a Poison type support to deal with snivy, it can really do a great job.
 
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#15
Guess I'll give my opinions. Huge fan of this new VR looks clean. Also BW sprites are super cute

Shellder is insane rn. Back up to A+

Mag is just hard to work. Fighting weakness and stupid weak to knock. Sturdy juice is ass. And scarf is pivoted around. Magnet Pull is rad but it traps 2 pokemon...
Down to B+

Trapinch up. Bulky Slow Diglett. Arena Trap+Abra/+Gastly core is ridiculous to deal with. I'd put it at B-

Exactly what Melon said about Snivy staying where it is

Would drop Riolu to C. Not complete ass but really bad rn. There is absolutely no reason to use it over Mienfoo.

The whole webs thing is an interesting topic I'd like to hear people discuss here or the metagame discussion thread. My opinion is webs are only so good because of abra so I see no reason for the setters to rise past B+ granted I'm not an avid webs player at all and having played it before I'm not a fan. The only real webs team I've seen that looks incredible both in play and on paper is Levi's Snover Webs and even then if grime is the last mon the only bird answer is grimer and if you switch it with Onix or Pawniard it's stupid gastly weak.

Idk how I feel about Wynaut rn. It can force mindgames like if you KO this mon with Timburr Drain punch/Mach punch Timburr is guarantee dead to wynaut nine times of ten for example. Can trap a bunch of good mons 1v1 with juice intact including Staryu, Abra, Timburr, Foongus, and Snubbull. Maybe we could start discussion on it. I mean Wynaut

I'd like to hear people's opinions on Pawn back up to A+ and Elekid to switch with Magnemite on this VR (IE Elekid to A-, Mag to B+)


And Now for my own Nomination; Torchic to A
Torchic is insane. Has two guaranteed counters being munchlax and ponyta. Which then you fire blast, protect, and BP out into a Mudbray or a Croagunk or a Timburr. There are teams solely based around offensive torchic breaking shit and then passing to strong bulky mons to clean up and those teams have very solid results and have been all over the place from lcpl to lc ssnl to lc open now. Torchic is already ridiculously hard to switch into but add this thing Baton Passing +2-4 speed at least once per game to a Bulky Offensive Teammate makes it easily A in my opinion.

Edit: Mb forgot Gible counters s/o the hero
 
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#16
Wanna talk about two nominations that plasmagby made since I was planning on nominating them too.

First one: Torchic A- to A: Agree

I agree with this nomination due to the reasons that plasmagby has stated. LO or firium torchic has no switchins barring flash fire pony (worn down by rocks), spdef slowpoke (assuming you havent been knocked, otherwise lo hp grass does around 60 percent) and munch but torchic can just bp with speed into something else. Torchic itself wrecks offense or ho without strong prio (or sash abra) as offense or ho usually have only two or potentially three mons which can take an lo fb or hp grass and kill in return but it becomes difficult preserving hp or evio on these mons when you're facing torchic + 5 other good mons. On top of that, no scarfer can even revenge this if its already got +1 speed as it can protect again and hit 28 speed, which outspeeds everything barring scarf dig or elekid. It also doesnt get pursuit trapped by alolan grimer or other pursuit users thanks to bp so attempting to chip it via pursuit is impossible. Ive only talked about lo or firium torchic those are the best torchic sets imo but with access to curse and sd, mispredicting or assuming lo or firium can be a costly mistake. If you go into your check or counter expecting a protect or fb but the opponent proceeds to sub or sd or curse, that can really put you in a bad spot since they can set up further or just bp into a mon which appreciates the boosts. Outside of aqua jet, it becomes quite difficult to beat this mon without either trading one of your mons pr taking a chunk of damage. Overall, I think its ability to smash most of the meta with fb, plus its ability to pass speed and potentially other stats to bulky mons which can abuse them means it should get the A rank imo.

Second one: Elekid B+ to A-: Agree

I think Elekid is a really good mon in this meta as it destroys a lot of common offensive cores. It shits on the onix staryu foongus core and like torchic, it doesnt have many switchins barring munch, spritzee, ferro (if it doesnt have fire punch). Its ability to do good chip on a lot of mons while gaining momentum is nice too but the two main reasons why i think it deserves A- is because, with staryu being the best form of hazard removal and present on a lot of teams for hazard removal, elekid holds the niche of being the only viable electric type to naturally outspeed staryu without scarf needed. One of the biggest issues with scarf chou or mag are that they always force 50/50s against staryu if the opponent has an electric immunity and getting the 50/50 wrong results in a loss of momentum or if the opponent has a dig, your electric mon is gone. Elekid doesnt have that issue and no dig set barring scarf can reliably trap it (unless youve chipped to a point where sucker kills). On top of that, its ability to run z moves to lure certain mons (psychium z in a meta where foo, timb and foon are so common is nice) makes it deserving of A- imo. Breaking abra sash with volt switch is also really nice since, usually you have to sack a mon or take a chunk to achieve that. One dowside of elekid over chou or even mag is the fact that lo gets worn down really quickly with rocks and it cant switch in on anything (unless you predict spore or another non-attacking move) but i think its ability to smash through a lot of the meta mons, blisteringly fast 20 speed and ability to gain momentum while switching moves puts it on par with mag and chou. At the very least, I think its better than mag in this meta so I agree with plas on switching its position with mag.
 

dcae

naughty list
#18
I'm going to make this quick.

After playing in this meta some more I realized my earlier nom of Pony to B+ may have been wrong. Pony is a good check to the increasingly popular Torchic, and Fire STAB is still a superb thing to have. Flame Charge also allows it to 1v1 almost every 19 speeder around and it is a solid check to good stuff like Croagunk as well. My revised opinion is to keep it where it is.
 
#19
Magby B- to C+

Outclassed by Zigzagoon as a belly drum sweeper, and really strugles in a meta with webs everywhere. LO set is completely outclassed by torchic and pony. This thing's only niche is it can switch into foongus IF it spores.
Tirtouga B to B-

Outclassed by all the other relevant ss sweepers right now. Tirt struggles with 4mss since it wants to run Zen Headbutt, Waterfall, Earthquake, and AJet. The issue with Tirt is you need a +2 speed mon running Ajet because its so insanely slow. If you give up EQ you get wrecked by pawn, if you give up zen headbutt any fighter comes and and stops you, if you give up ajet you miss hitting scarfers. Tirtouga is just struggling to sweep in this meta, its not as good as it was when Fletch was relevant.
Pancham B to C+

Ok seriously why is Pancham in B? I love using it occasionally but everything it does can be done by Mienfoo, Timburr, or Croagunk better. It's only niche is swords dance and coverage. If you're running gunk shot just run NP Croagunk, and lets not forget that Mienfoo gets SD and hits 19 atk if youre just trying to break, and foo has reckless hjk. I seriously don't see how this thing is at B right now. Everything it can do is already done.
Mantyke C- to C

Mantyke is actually a decent little special wall which has something over munch : it resists fighters and has a STAB move thats super effective against them with air slash. RestTalk Mantyke isnt actually all that bad, it gives you a ground immunity and a water immunity and a bunch of resistances as well as spreading scald burns. It's really not been bad at all from what I've seen.
Bulbasaur C+ to Unranked

Why this thing never moved down after sun died is beyond me. Manual sun is trash, and Z-Celebrate is just really bad and completely outclassed by Z-TOT pump. Theres very few things that this can setup on, and even at +1 this thing is weak. With the rise of torchic the case for Z-Celebrate Bulbasaur is worse than ever.
Rowlet C to C-

What's this thing's niche again? SD Passing? A Mienfoo can do the job 10x better. It can pass nasty plot I guess but its about as bad as that as mime jr is. It gets defog but isnt gonna run it as it cant have stat passing and defog.
Mime Jr. Unranked to C-
Mime Jr. has some decent options at it's disposal I seem to remember it being pretty relevant in one of the Mambo vs Jox games if someone knows where the replay is. It can baton pass a lot of boosts like barrier, calm mind, and nasty plot while also providing support with twave and healing wish. It's also got technician boosted hidden power if you want to lure something as well as a decent typing in psychic/fairy.
Meowth C+ to B-
 
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#20
Just wanted to throw in my hat on the Torchic move up discussion since I've been a big fan of it for awhile. LO Torchic is capable of getting an OHKO or 2HKO using fire blast and/or hp grass after rocks on the common sets of almost every single mon ranked equal or higher to it with only a few exceptions such as pony, bj chou, or sash bra. Team's lacking a reliable switch in are put under huge pressure to preserve something that can revenge kill torchic, and are often forced to play into situations that grant setup or baton pass opportunities for their opponent. All in all, i'd say Torchic can rise to A or dare i say higher 0_0
 

Altariel von Sweep

Life has many doors, Edd boy!
is a Smogon Media Contributor
#21
I have to strongly agree with Torchic rising to A. The fact that its coverage is almost unresisted and has no switch-ins except for three Pokémon (Gible [gets 3HKOed by Fire Blast], Munchlax [tanks every single hit thanks to SpD and Thick Fat] and Ponyta [Flash Fire and typing]), and can maintain momentum with Baton Pass as well as passing its Speed boosts to partners like Timburr, Mudbray or Croagunk is absolutely insane. Besides, its world doesn't consist in sweeping with Life Orb either, as it can also use Firium Z to get a powerful nuke that can take out some bulky Pokémon that don't resist it and do a great damage to others. Despite it has some drawbacks like many Z-Moves, it is a threat that must be taken on mind.

tl;dr: Torchic good, rise it.
 
#22
Yeah I said Torch could easily see A+ in the upcoming days on discord the other day. For now it can go to A really really easily. Between stuff like firium z and speed passing and lo its a super relevant mon. It can also bluff offensive and curse pass right now which can be gg if it gets the first curse off which is another ridiculous set.
 

Fiend

the hound.
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#23
Magby B- to C+

Outclassed by Zigzagoon as a belly drum sweeper, and really strugles in a meta with webs everywhere. LO set is completely outclassed by torchic and pony. This thing's only niche is it can switch into foongus IF it spores.
Agree.
Tirtouga B to B-

Outclassed by all the other relevant ss sweepers right now. Tirt struggles with 4mss since it wants to run Zen Headbutt, Waterfall, Earthquake, and AJet. The issue with Tirt is you need a +2 speed mon running Ajet because its so insanely slow. If you give up EQ you get wrecked by pawn, if you give up zen headbutt any fighter comes and and stops you, if you give up ajet you miss hitting scarfers. Tirtouga is just struggling to sweep in this meta, its not as good as it was when Fletch was relevant.
I feel like I'm the only one who uses Tirtouga. It's super underrated. It's so fat. It takes Mienfoo's HJK really well, and while it gets handled decently easily on paper it forces opponents to keep things healthy or get swept in the lategame. It's an underrated user of Knock Off, and it works super well as a rocker. It has Aqua Jet to make it a solid check to Flying-types and Diglett proof, while also a solid Fire-type check. 4mss is really notable, but you can easily tailor the team around that and have a very irksome Pokemon that weakens key threats (Croagunk, Foongus, Pawniard, Ferroseed, Slowpoke) with Knock Off or EQ or ZHB. Plus if you run Shell Smash you have a great mid game breaker, and most of what you listed as a check is usually super easy to wear down with Pokemon Tirtouga likes to be paired with (Overcoat Vullaby, Timburr, Spritzee, Eviolite Ponyta).
Pancham B to C+
Ok seriously why is Pancham in B? I love using it occasionally but everything it does can be done by Mienfoo, Timburr, or Croagunk better. It's only niche is swords dance and coverage. If you're running gunk shot just run NP Croagunk, and lets not forget that Mienfoo gets SD and hits 19 atk if you're just trying to break, and foo has reckless hjk. I seriously don't see how this thing is at B right now. Everything it can do is already done.
Panda is really good at being a fat Pokemon that will trade at least 1 for 1 in a game if it isn't thrown out. I understand that it has really tough competition, but seeing as Iron Fist SD with Gunk Shot or ZHB has few/no counters, and is rather bulky, and happens to outpace and KO the ghosts which like to Wisp it in bulky Pumpka and Frillish, it has a solid niche already. Single handedly beating most Fighting checks is superb for more than just other Fighting-types, and pairing this with the likes of Snivy, Corphish, and Life Orb Staryu proves to be monstrous. I'm doubtful of the pivots set reliability, but it can prove to be a solid set at times so it shouldn't be completely discounted. Gunk Shot isn't even outclassed by Croagunk, as Pancham is better at a) not being trapped b) living neutral hits c) forcing opponents to play around an unknown 4th attack. I would recommend SD Panda on Webs in particular, even though it is vogue is to use NP Gunk instead despite being shut down more easily and far more prepared for. Maybe a drop to B- is acceptable, but I would argue against that still.
Mantyke C- to C

Mantyke is actually a decent little special wall which has something over munch : it resists fighters and has a STAB move thats super effective against them with air slash. RestTalk Mantyke isnt actually all that bad, it gives you a ground immunity and a water immunity and a bunch of resistances as well as spreading scald burns. It's really not been bad at all from what I've seen.
I really couldn't care less about this Pokemon, and while rain is cool, specifically with abusers that don't mind Croagunk, you're using a Mantyke. It has to set up, which it often can, but then it needs to do something with its 5 turns. And then, it needs to not waste its Z move and hit its Hydro Pumps and hope that Air Slash isn't too weak at a nice +0. It has so many issues as a Pokemon, and being SR weak leaves it prone to being easily handled and you have to outplay with it. I think it's generally not worthwhile and mostly insignificant, but frankly I'm just not a fan of the Pokemon as it sits in the back without an Eviolite trying to set up. I guess you could run an Eviolite, but that's really bad if they have anything that resists Water and doesn't die to Air Slash (Staryu comes to mind). It's not really any better than anything in C- as far as I'm concerned, but maybe this can rise. Corporal Levi has a surprisingly strong opinion on the matter however, so good luck.
Bulbasaur C+ to Unranked

Why this thing never moved down after sun died is beyond me. Manual sun is trash, and Z-Celebrate is just really bad and completely outclassed by Z-TOT pump. Theres very few things that this can setup on, and even at +1 this thing is weak. With the rise of torchic the case for Z-Celebrate Bulbasaur is worse than ever.
So, Z-Celebrate is actually rather potent. STAB Sludge Bomb is a very, very good and decently spammable attack, and after SR it muscles past most things that stop Pumpkaboo. The issue is, it requires more support in setting up with things such as Ice Punch Timburr commonplace, and a few key Pokemon need to be Knocked Off for you (Foongus mainly, Pawniard needs to be weakened or KOed depending on your set, Croagunk). Sleep Powder is a nice 4th move, while HP Fire is also super useful. It's a great way to break past a lot of weird builds, and Bulbasaur's shortcomings are arguably less than those of Pumpkaboo-Smalls. Hitting Vullaby for actual damage is amazing, though a lack of Fire Blast can be hurtful. On paper this can seem like a big issue, but frankly, it simply isn't damming. The support you need for this Pokemon comes rather easily and naturally as 90% of teams use a Fighting-type Pokemon. The worst thing about this set is you can't spin block, which makes you "have" to consider this set on not-Webs teams and often something flashier catches your eye, or something that simply hits harder is prefered. It's very much a solid set, though certainly not incredible.
Rowlet C to C-

What's this thing's niche again? SD Passing? A Mienfoo can do the job 10x better. It can pass nasty plot I guess but its about as bad as that as mime jr is. It gets defog but isn't gonna run it as it cant have stat passing and defog.
I'm not sure why you want this to drop. It's pretty good at what it does, and while it can't exactly abuse everything you wish it could (Onix, Snivy, Foongus), it has a lot of bulk and is less likely to bring in a check to the Pokemon you're BPing to. And even if they do send in a Snubbull or Spritzee or Croagunk versus you, you can remove it from play frequently enough. It's by no means amazing, but this is mid C we are talking about. Its niche is the type synergies Rowlett has, not the overall goodness as Rowlett outside of SD or Nasty pass.
Mime Jr. Unranked to C-
Mime Jr. has some decent options at it's disposal I seem to remember it being pretty relevant in one of the Mambo vs Jox games if someone knows where the replay is. It can baton pass a lot of boosts like barrier, calm mind, and nasty plot while also providing support with twave and healing wish. It's also got technician boosted hidden power if you want to lure something as well as a decent typing in psychic/fairy.
Agree.
Meowth C+ to B-
I know this is your gimmick and all, but simply put, no. It is not happening. Why? Because of all of reasons that have been told to you a countless number of times already. This is going to be a blacklisted Pokemon soon.

EDIT:
Torchic will never hit A+ unless the metagame shifts in a major fashion. The general community's infatuation with Torchic is overwhelming, and most of the nominations overstate its abilities I find.
 
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GOAO

Formerly tahu
is a Pre-Contributor
#24
torchic is one of those mons that seems a lot better on paper than it actually is. in practice, it's often really predictable which can be taken advantage of. its also really frail unless you're running evio curse. its still very solid but it's not better than stuff like chou.

ferroseed should move up tho. it switches in on basically everything that's not a fire or fighting type and offers a ton of role compression: hazards, speed control, knock off support, etc. really good mon.
 

Berks

has a Calm Mind
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
#25
torchic is one of those mons that seems a lot better on paper than it actually is. in practice, it's often really predictable which can be taken advantage of. its also really frail unless you're running evio curse. its still very solid but it's not better than stuff like chou.

ferroseed should move up tho. it switches in on basically everything that's not a fire or fighting type and offers a ton of role compression: hazards, speed control, knock off support, etc. really good mon.
Ferroseed is already sitting at A, which is pretty impressive given how friendly this metagame is to Fighting- and Fire-types that the moment. All that role compression also makes it a pretty big momentum suck too relative to its ranking, so I think it's fine where it is
 
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