Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Hi I wasn't council at the time but I pushed for a chatter ban and it's very annoying to consistently see it called a mistake that only happened because nobody cared. While that's partially true that nobody cared, I would ban chatter all over again and I would not be in favor of banning thousand arrows. Chatter was different because it was completely uncompetitive on its one user. Thousand arrows is a good move but there's nothing inherently uncompetitive about it, chatter's 100% confuse rate literally turned games into spam sub until they hit themselves and you can go see replays of spdef carbink still losing to chatot because nothing could reliably take it on. Machoke was a different case simply because dpunch has a wide distribution on shit it isn't uncompetitive on and has nothing to do with chatter ban being a poor precedent. With thousand arrows in mind you know exactly what can and cannot beat zygarde, and the list of what can was deemed too small to keep it in the meta.
If you're in favor of banning thousand arrows please stop using this as some sort of precedent, but people against please stop using that argument
Not that I particularly care about this argument, I think banning the zygarde formes will happen whatever anyone says, but I'm curious about this:
Would you say that "thousand arrows is uncompetitive for mono due to the fact that it completely shuts down a relatively large number of types, and would do so on pretty much any otherwise average pokemon" is at all similar to the fact that chatter was broken for reasons other than just being a signature move of a mon whose best set was broken in the current metagame?
no i wouldnt, theres a clear difference between "i normally beat this but there is a 25% chance I could become setup fodder" and "I would beat this but it has access to this move so I shouldnt use this mon". Hey if we ban hydro pump then maybe ash greninja won't shut down steel!
e: uncompetitive takes the decision out of the player's hands. thousand arrows clearly doesn't do that
All right, since we've banned Kartana and we all know what Metagross does, I'd like to hopefully get some discussion on another... "fun" pokemon:
Boasting a great ability pre-mega evolution, the ability to check all Metagross variants not called Grass Knot (And only if it isn't boosted), this pokemon is a huge threat to most types in our current metagame not called Dark. Not much has changed for MegaBro from Gen 6 to Gen 7, and it still does the same thing it did back then: Take absurd physical hits and setup utilizing Calm Mind in order to eventually sweep. The fact this pokemon cannot be crit, one of the biggest weaknesses of most CM bulky pokemon like Clefable and Suicune, allows it to setup very easily on any non-super effective physical hit. (Or even some super effective ones with no STAB!)
With Kartana gone, one of the few things that could actually hurt a boosted MegaBro is also gone, leaving alot of teams struggling to cover for it. This has led to an increase in the use of Specs Greninja on Water and Dark teams. (Although that set is still incredibly good without considering MegaBro)
While I personally haven't encountered enough MegaBros in order to propose a good enough set of replays to show whether it's broken or not, something I expect will change, I will simply leave two replays from our Sun and Moon tour in which MegaBro does what it does best, and leave the judgement of whether the replays are "good" or not to each person to decide.
I don't think mega bro is the reason people are using specs ninja lol, it just nukes a lot of types in general at just happens to help keep megabro in check at the same time.
I think the first replay was a bit better than the second but even the first one, balto's team was really unprepared for mega bro in general, which let it clean up so easily like it did. gren didn't have a dark stab and the support BTC had made gyara not a threat. Water teams generally carry either t spikes or toxic itself to be able to cripple bro and make it more managable.
I was just casually talking to hatch about the second one and he admittedly choked in risking his hoopa on the turn it got scald burned. I think if he could have just went to latios preserved hoopa's life than he could have forced bro to heal and then gone into it and he would have been in the drivers seat at that point and mega bro wouldn't have been able to stop it.
I don't want to hault discussion because I think it's a good mon to talk about, but I just don't like those replays a lot. I personally haven't had any worthwhile thoughts on it cus any time ive tried to use it I sweep rock teams and i can't really throw anything out that would be relevant.
WIth kartana being banned i can only see stall water rising dramatically in usage. I hope everyone is prepared for the really fun battles against stall :D
DISCLAIMER: This is my first actual post so I may sound really bad and informal. Also I am not the best at pokemon yet so I may sound dumb as well.
Toucannon: A truly strange pokemon
Description:
Toucannon has led me to some small victories with my normal team due to its unique move beak blast as well as its useful Skill Link ability. Currently I don't see it being used as often as it should, as I have beaten a steel team because of this pokemon (before the kartana ban, also I did not get the replay sorry.) We all know how overwhelming steel can be, especially for normal, which only had a few new interesting mons to use this gen. After using Toucannon for the first time, I knew there was more to this bird than just a simple burning move.
Sets:
Toucannon @ Leftovers
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Beak Blast
- Flame Charge
- Rock Blast
- Bullet Seed
Set Description:
Leftovers is used so that Toucannon can recover HP (duh), also running scarf or choice items can be risky as toucannon is no sweeper.
Skill Link is used due to Toucannon's movepool allowing bullet seed and rock blast to be utilized with its decent attack stat.
Beak Blast is used because it is Toucannon's main appeal, which burns the attacker that hits toucannon with a contact move. More on the usefulness of this move later
Flame Charge is used for a situational speed boost that can make or break the game.
Rock Blast and bullet seed are used because of Skill link and how much it helps Toucannon out.
Pros:
Toucannon can cripple many enemies with beak blast, especially choiced ones.
Skill link allows Toucannon to get rid of threats that use focus sash or disguise.
Can avoid most hazards thanks to its flying typing
Cons:
Toucannon is extremely frail and slow until it gets its speed boost, making it very situational.
Toucannon is NOT a sweeper, which means that it will not get kills often or ever during a match.
Toucannon is crippled by rocks
Thoughts?
I personally think that Toucannon is a supporting offense mon. It can help its team out but not really do much on its own. What do you guys think?
DISCLAIMER: This is my first actual post so I may sound really bad and informal. Also I am not the best at pokemon yet so I may sound dumb as well.
Toucannon: A truly strange pokemon
Description:
Toucannon has led me to some small victories with my normal team due to its unique move beak blast as well as its useful Skill Link ability. Currently I don't see it being used as often as it should, as I have beaten a steel team because of this pokemon (before the kartana ban, also I did not get the replay sorry.) We all know how overwhelming steel can be, especially for normal, which only had a few new interesting mons to use this gen. After using Toucannon for the first time, I knew there was more to this bird than just a simple burning move.
Sets:
Toucannon @ Leftovers
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Beak Blast
- Flame Charge
- Rock Blast
- Bullet Seed
Set Description:
Leftovers is used so that Toucannon can recover HP (duh), also running scarf or choice items can be risky as toucannon is no sweeper.
Skill Link is used due to Toucannon's movepool allowing bullet seed and rock blast to be utilized with its decent attack stat.
Beak Blast is used because it is Toucannon's main appeal, which burns the attacker that hits toucannon with a contact move. More on the usefulness of this move later
Flame Charge is used for a situational speed boost that can make or break the game.
Rock Blast and bullet seed are used because of Skill link and how much it helps Toucannon out.
Pros:
Toucannon can cripple many enemies with beak blast, especially choiced ones.
Skill link allows Toucannon to get rid of threats that use focus sash or disguise.
Can avoid most hazards thanks to its flying typing
Cons:
Toucannon is extremely frail and slow until it gets its speed boost, making it very situational.
Toucannon is NOT a sweeper, which means that it will not get kills often or ever during a match.
Toucannon is crippled by rocks
Thoughts?
I personally think that Toucannon is a supporting offense mon. It can help its team out but not really do much on its own. What do you guys think?
Toucannon is an interesting Pokemon and, in my opinion, kind of a diamond in the rough this gen. However, I personally think there are better uses for it than the one you mentioned, as your set does not fully take advantage of Toucannon's role. It is best used as a slow, and somewhat bulky attacker, that makes attackers like Mega Metagross think twice about attacking you with a slow Beak Blast. As for your pros and cons:
It can avoid all hazards except the most important and used one: Stealth Rock. Flame Charge is a bad move on it, as it struggles to outspeed speedy Pokemon even after a boost, due to its low Speed. It also doesn't capitalize on Beak Blast's wonderful effect. As for the cons: Toucannon is not a sweeper, yes (another reason not to run Flame Charge), but its not meant to be. Its role is supposed to be a slow, sometimes bulky attacker that can tank most physical hits and cripple them with Beak Blast. Here's a set that I believe will be standard after the meta settles:
Toucannon @ Choice Band
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Beak Blast
- U-turn
- Rock Blast
- Return
Toucannon is an interesting Pokemon and, in my opinion, kind of a diamond in the rough this gen. However, I personally think there are better uses for it than the one you mentioned, as your set does not fully take advantage of Toucannon's role. It is best used as a slow, and somewhat bulky attacker, that makes attackers like Mega Metagross think twice about attacking you with a slow Beak Blast. As for your pros and cons:
It can avoid all hazards except the most important and used one: Stealth Rock. Flame Charge is a bad move on it, as it struggles to outspeed speedy Pokemon even after a boost, due to its low Speed. It also doesn't capitalize on Beak Blast's wonderful effect. As for the cons: Toucannon is not a sweeper, yes (another reason not to run Flame Charge), but its not meant to be. Its role is supposed to be a slow, sometimes bulky attacker that can tank most physical hits and cripple them with Beak Blast. Here's a set that I believe will be standard after the meta settles:
Toucannon @ Choice Band
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Beak Blast
- U-turn
- Rock Blast
- Return
Hey that's actually a pretty good set, thanks for your input! I'll be honest, I this mon caught my eye and I knew I didn't hit all of the key points (also I believe I did mention how SR cripples it). I just have one thing to say about the set you gave:
While it is good, I think that rock blast and bullet seed will become interchangeable due to their varying coverage. Otherwise nice suggestion and thanks for the reply! I'll be sure to try this out.
Play horrible all game. Hope opponent is weak to MegaBro. Proceed to sweep weakened team using MegaBro. Fun times!
(Did I misplay somewhere or miss something here?)
Play horrible all game. Hope opponent is weak to MegaBro. Proceed to sweep weakened team using MegaBro. Fun times!
(Did I misplay somewhere or miss something here?)
Honestly, I fail to see what argument you're trying to make here. Please give a detailed explanation upon your reasoning about the "fun" replay because it's rather vague it'll at least be better if you clarify. Showing "1" replay about what Mega Slowbro is doing against Poison isn't a good enough argument if that's what you're pointing out. It's a sad excuse rather.
aight i've been testing out some new teams/mons on the ladder now that i'm done with exams and the team that i enjoyed using the most was offensive webs bug, w/ buzzwole as a replacement for mega hera. this allows me to use mega pinsir as well which is pretty nice. the two sets ive been using are:
Buzzwole @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Leech Life
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
cb buzzwole hits monstrously hard and helps a ton vs steel, as neither skarm nor celesteela can switch in freely vs this and doublade usage has dropped a ton from what ive noticed. this appreciates webs support from shuckle a lot, as its not really fast even with max speed (i'm not sure whether its better to invest in hp or speed because otherwise it becomes a bit too slow even with webs up) superpower benefits from beast boost so you don't get an atk drop if you kill the opposing mon with it. leech life is alternate stab to get some recovery back, eq hits toxapex and pjab hits fairies.
Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Leech Life
- Bulk Up
an alternate set that i tried before band, this capitalizes on buzzwole's amazing defense and sets up on phys attackers. subpunch hits super strong and leech life + lefties manage to recover health pretty well. however its not as viable as the set above on the team ive been using because the immediate power that cb provides works better with webs imo.
overall i think buzzwole is a pretty cool replacement for mega hera on bug with its monstrous def + atk. it does have pretty pitiful spdef though and its speed leaves it outclassed by regular hera on fighting from what ive heard by talking to some fighting users, but a great mon nonetheless.
aight i've been testing out some new teams/mons on the ladder now that i'm done with exams and the team that i enjoyed using the most was offensive webs bug, w/ buzzwole as a replacement for mega hera. this allows me to use mega pinsir as well which is pretty nice. the two sets ive been using are:
Buzzwole @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Leech Life
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
cb buzzwole hits monstrously hard and helps a ton vs steel, as neither skarm nor celesteela can switch in freely vs this and doublade usage has dropped a ton from what ive noticed. this appreciates webs support from shuckle a lot, as its not really fast even with max speed (i'm not sure whether its better to invest in hp or speed because otherwise it becomes a bit too slow even with webs up) superpower benefits from beast boost so you don't get an atk drop if you kill the opposing mon with it. leech life is alternate stab to get some recovery back, eq hits toxapex and pjab hits fairies.
Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Leech Life
- Bulk Up
an alternate set that i tried before band, this capitalizes on buzzwole's amazing defense and sets up on phys attackers. subpunch hits super strong and leech life + lefties manage to recover health pretty well. however its not as viable as the set above on the team ive been using because the immediate power that cb provides works better with webs imo.
overall i think buzzwole is a pretty cool replacement for mega hera on bug with its monstrous def + atk. it does have pretty pitiful spdef though and its speed leaves it outclassed by regular hera on fighting from what ive heard by talking to some fighting users, but a great mon nonetheless.
Nice sets, Buzzwole is something I actually wanted to play around with myself as a bug user. I saw its amazing offenses and thought that they could be pretty overwhelming with some other mons like M-Hera. Of course we know that isn't going to happen yet, but it does fill in the gap very well and is a solid member of Bug.
Also I have a set that might also catch your attention:
Buzzwole @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Leech Life
- Poison Jab
- Superpower
- Earthquake
This set, while not as strong as your banded one, is very good for coverage on bug, which is quite a necessity considering how much bug struggles to have a lot of coverage. Poison jab can deal with fairies for his fighting team (most of the time) and earthquake can deal with hetran, who is one of bugs biggest checks. Buzzwole may not have the tanking power to deal with a switch-in, but that doesn't mean that it still can't be a really useful member of the team. I choose life orb as Buzzwole's item because leech life makes it worth it to have. This set may be risky in some situations, but it reduces the risk of being locked in an impulsively decided choice move. Once again, nice job terrors with the other two sets, I hope this one works as well.
Play horrible all game. Hope opponent is weak to MegaBro. Proceed to sweep weakened team using MegaBro. Fun times!
(Did I misplay somewhere or miss something here?)
This replay proves nothing lol and in all honesty u seem a little salty. Ur playing a teir where matchup has a great impact on the outcome of the game and mega bro was the Wincon in this particular matchup and
It won. This replay being ur reasoning for wanting to ban Mega bro makes 0 sense dawg. It's like scizor sweeping a rock/Fairy team or Mega Sharpedo sweeping a ghost/Psychic team does that make them broken? At the end of the day banning a pokemon because your favorite type loses to it isn't really good enough of a reason to ban it . And btw mega bro didn't sweep u forfeited :p
aight i've been testing out some new teams/mons on the ladder now that i'm done with exams and the team that i enjoyed using the most was offensive webs bug, w/ buzzwole as a replacement for mega hera. this allows me to use mega pinsir as well which is pretty nice. the two sets ive been using are:
Buzzwole @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Leech Life
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
cb buzzwole hits monstrously hard and helps a ton vs steel, as neither skarm nor celesteela can switch in freely vs this and doublade usage has dropped a ton from what ive noticed. this appreciates webs support from shuckle a lot, as its not really fast even with max speed (i'm not sure whether its better to invest in hp or speed because otherwise it becomes a bit too slow even with webs up) superpower benefits from beast boost so you don't get an atk drop if you kill the opposing mon with it. leech life is alternate stab to get some recovery back, eq hits toxapex and pjab hits fairies.
Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Leech Life
- Bulk Up
an alternate set that i tried before band, this capitalizes on buzzwole's amazing defense and sets up on phys attackers. subpunch hits super strong and leech life + lefties manage to recover health pretty well. however its not as viable as the set above on the team ive been using because the immediate power that cb provides works better with webs imo.
overall i think buzzwole is a pretty cool replacement for mega hera on bug with its monstrous def + atk. it does have pretty pitiful spdef though and its speed leaves it outclassed by regular hera on fighting from what ive heard by talking to some fighting users, but a great mon nonetheless.
This set is a middle ground between coverage and abusing the Fighting STAB, while using Z-Focus Punch as a nuke to finish off the likes of Celesteela or Skarmory.
Jolly is to ensure you outspeed the likes of max speed Heatran, speed creeping Zapdos, etc.
Play horrible all game. Hope opponent is weak to MegaBro. Proceed to sweep weakened team using MegaBro. Fun times!
(Did I misplay somewhere or miss something here?)
Instead of blaming the mon, blame your team. Poison has plenty of checks to MegaBro, ranging from scolipede, Gengar, Toxic spikes + pressure etc etc. There really is no reason for poison to lose to water stall if poison is properly prepared.
aight i've been testing out some new teams/mons on the ladder now that i'm done with exams and the team that i enjoyed using the most was offensive webs bug, w/ buzzwole as a replacement for mega hera. this allows me to use mega pinsir as well which is pretty nice. the two sets ive been using are:
Buzzwole @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Leech Life
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
cb buzzwole hits monstrously hard and helps a ton vs steel, as neither skarm nor celesteela can switch in freely vs this and doublade usage has dropped a ton from what ive noticed. this appreciates webs support from shuckle a lot, as its not really fast even with max speed (i'm not sure whether its better to invest in hp or speed because otherwise it becomes a bit too slow even with webs up) superpower benefits from beast boost so you don't get an atk drop if you kill the opposing mon with it. leech life is alternate stab to get some recovery back, eq hits toxapex and pjab hits fairies.
Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Leech Life
- Bulk Up
an alternate set that i tried before band, this capitalizes on buzzwole's amazing defense and sets up on phys attackers. subpunch hits super strong and leech life + lefties manage to recover health pretty well. however its not as viable as the set above on the team ive been using because the immediate power that cb provides works better with webs imo.
overall i think buzzwole is a pretty cool replacement for mega hera on bug with its monstrous def + atk. it does have pretty pitiful spdef though and its speed leaves it outclassed by regular hera on fighting from what ive heard by talking to some fighting users, but a great mon nonetheless.
Really liking the sets dude, my only suggestion is maybe try to find some better replays to back it up. The steel guy was not great, the psychic was fine except for when he clicked blue flare and not v create on the armaldo switchin, he probably could have won had he done that.
Since Lycan was the first one to actually suggest checks Poison has to MegaBro, I'll reply to him.
Before that though, I'll agree my replay wasn't very good, and I was salty at losing a match I thought I had won. (Happy guys?)
Lycan mentions Scolipede, Toxic spikes + Pressure and Gengar as checks to MegaBro, however I don't see how this is the case. To start off, Scolipede not only faces very important competition on Offensive poison with pokemon such as Crobat (Ground inmunity, Flying STAB, Hawlucha check using Infiltrator although this doesn't matter as much as last gen) but it also doesn't actually beat MegaBro unless it's literally CB Adamant, which is a fine set but is walled by pokemon like Toxapex unless it predicts them by clicking EQ.
Toxic Spikes don't beat MegaBro, as it's perfectly free to run a Restalk set that ignores status or simply have toxapex as a teammate.
As for Gengar, it cannot check MegaBro after a single Calm Mind unless it's Life Orb or Choice Specs. (I personally have found myself running scarf to reliably check weakened MegaGross tbh, and having a chance vs Psychic, but I'm sure others have use for the other sets) It also has competition from all the other Poison special attackers, from Nihilego to the Nidos and everything inbetween.
252+ Atk Choice Band Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 254-300 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 218-260 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Life orb doesn't really beat it unless it SD's, since MegaBro simply Slack Offs until it misses)
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 212-252 (53.8 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Assuming a direct switch in as it CMs)
It might not be as much of an issue as MegaBro itself but rather the fact that every check to it is dealt with by most of it's common teammates.
Since Lycan was the first one to actually suggest checks Poison has to MegaBro, I'll reply to him.
Before that though, I'll agree my replay wasn't very good, and I was salty at losing a match I thought I had won. (Happy guys?)
Lycan mentions Scolipede, Toxic spikes + Pressure and Gengar as checks to MegaBro, however I don't see how this is the case. To start off, Scolipede not only faces very important competition on Offensive poison with pokemon such as Crobat (Ground inmunity, Flying STAB, Hawlucha check using Infiltrator although this doesn't matter as much as last gen) but it also doesn't actually beat MegaBro unless it's literally CB Adamant, which is a fine set but is walled by pokemon like Toxapex unless it predicts them by clicking EQ.
Toxic Spikes don't beat MegaBro, as it's perfectly free to run a Restalk set that ignores status or simply have toxapex as a teammate.
As for Gengar, it cannot check MegaBro after a single Calm Mind unless it's Life Orb or Choice Specs. (I personally have found myself running scarf to reliably check weakened MegaGross tbh, and having a chance vs Psychic, but I'm sure others have use for the other sets) It also has competition from all the other Poison special attackers, from Nihilego to the Nidos and everything inbetween.
252+ Atk Choice Band Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 254-300 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 218-260 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Life orb doesn't really beat it unless it SD's, since MegaBro simply Slack Offs until it misses)
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 212-252 (53.8 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Assuming a direct switch in as it CMs)
It might not be as much of an issue as MegaBro itself but rather the fact that every check to it is dealt with by most of it's common teammates.
252 Atk Choice Band Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 230-272 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 218-260 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Erm, hate to call you out here Bit, but I think you got your calcs wrong there, especially considering it can't hold Leftovers for passive recovery.
Anyways, Scolipede does not face much competition on Poison, it is still one of the best answers to Psychic Teams, and it is one of the only Physical Wallbreakers available to use (with immediate power at least). Mega Slowbro is very checkable for Poison, 1 True Lycan is absolutely correct. Toxic Spikes pressure + Scolipede is enough to keep it in line, you just need to make sure Scolipede doesn't get burnt, and just play good (its also worth mentioning, while not nearly as common, Curse Mega Venusaur also is able to keep it in check, and that alone brings immense pressure to Water teams, with or w/o Curse). (Feel free to call me out here, I know I'm sometimes guilty of this as well, but hey, people need reminders sometimes including myself) The fact that you brought the terrible replay you did does not help you with your argument, so, my question is, what was the point of doing that?
![](http://<img src="http://www.serebii.net/sunmoon/pokemon/733.png" alt="Image result for toucannon image"/>)
