Metagame SM Monotype Metagame Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
I definitely agree in the fact that neither of these megas will be particularly relevant at all. I'll start with Mega Banette:



It should be rather obvious why Mega Banette will see next to no relevance on Ghost teams. Mega Sableye is simply too important for Ghost teams to pass up, and by foregoing Mega Sableye, you end up losing not only a Dark switch in, but a consistent form of hazard prevention and an incredible utility option. Due to the Prankster nerf in Gen 7, Mega Banette's only use in the Dark matchup will be as a suicide mon with Destiny Bond, which isn't very helpful in comparison to Mega Sableye being able to Will-O-Wisp and cripple Tyranitar, Alolan Muk, and Bisharp. So as Darklatias92 said, Mega Sableye will always be preferred over Mega Banette.



I tried testing with Mega Camerupt for a bit, hoping that it would be a nice asset for Ground teams due to easily tearing through threats like Celesteela and Ferrothorn, while also aiding in the Grass and Ice matchups. However, Mega Camerupt just isn't all that great. Landorus and Nidoking perform the special wallbreaking role far better due to aiding in the same Grass and Steel matchups, while also having decent to beneficial speed tiers(Nidoking being decent and Landorus being beneficial) and offering a lot of further coverage, with Nidoking having access to strong Poison STAB to check Clefable and Azumarill, as well as Ice Beam and even Thunderbolt in order to get past Mantine. Landorus has the same Poison coverage in Sludge Wave, while also checking Mega Charizard Y and Volcarona with Rock Slide and having Focus Blast to nail the Steel types that it isn't able to hit with Earth Power. Mega Camerupt definitely still has its desirable traits in its Fire STAB, Grass and Ice neutralities, and good bulk. But that piss poor Speed tier holds it back so much. Mega Steelix and/or Mega Garchomp are better uses of the Mega slot on Ground teams anyway, with Mega Steelix opening a moveslot for Hippowdon while also being able to switch into Choice Scarf Tapu Bulu, and Mega Garchomp being a decent wallbreaker under sand. I won't go too in-detail about how it'll stand on Fire teams, since it's obvious that the Mega Charizards will always be preferred over it. The only way it could particularly fit on a Fire team is if it's TR Fire with Chandelure and Victini, but even that's more of a meme build.​
I never thought I would ever be posting here again, but I feel it is necessary here to actually make a case for Mega Camerupt, because I truly think you're severely underestimating how good this mon could actually be.

I'll start off with why it was a good mega choice in Generation 6. At the time Ground was (and to an extent still is) lacking in the special walbreaker department outside of Landorus-I (Nidoking can oftentimes be more or less underwhelming in actuality because it's lacking in power in general. Sheer Force and its arsenal of coverage do remedy this a little, but neutral base 85 Special Attack is nothing to brag about since this makes it avoid some crucial 2KO's and OHKOs). When people began using Mega Camerupt, including myself, while it did need a fair amount of team support, a lot of us realized thanks to a base 145 Special Attack, alongside Sheer Force and strong STABs, this thing hits like a truck. Very little can actually switch into it and not get 2KO'd, and the strong Fire coverage can be highly appreciated since it gives a very solid answer to Grass, Ice, while hitting a very large majority of the meta neutrally (the only real concern being Water, I really don't think I'd need to count Rock given Ground plows through that pretty easily). Secondly, it is a very solid Burn absorber, so you can easily switch it into most burn inducers and threaten them substantially (great examples being Torkoal w/ Lava Plume, Sableye, Mew, and honestly anything without scald); this is a great thing to consider due to the fact most Ground mons are Physical Attackers and don't appreciate the momentum drain once they are burnt (the damage wearing them down at a decent pace, as well as attack being halved). Thirdly, this is really more of a quirk if anything that you could probably go without this gen, but it made to be a great lure for a variety of threats (great exmaples being Gyarados on Flying, Azumarill, etc), and it wasn't very difficult to surprise burn them on the expected switchin.

Now, Generation 7 proves to be a lot more offense oriented as I've found compared to the widespread Balance in the previous metagame, however there are quite a few of the new threats introduced that Mega Camel is able to relatively easily check (due especially to not only its bulk, but the neutralities its Fire/Ground typing provides). Tapu Koko can be finicky due to the fact it oftentimes runs Grass Knot and Hidden Power Ice. While that itself is not super threatening, the speed tier it holds is, meaning it has the ability to put a major dent on Hippowdon on the switch with Grass Knot, it has the ability to revenge kill Garchomp and both Landorus's with HP Ice, and you can't easily send in Seismitoad/Gastrodon in either due to the 4x Grass weakness. That being said, you're only real checks are either Excadrill or if you decide to run a scarfer above Tapu Koko's speed tier. Mega Camerupt is easily able to not only switch in onto it, but make switching out substantially harder (Fire Blast alone is able to put in a good chip of damage against Rotom-W or Azumarill respectively, and if they're out early, almost nothing is able to tank a Fire Blast effectively). That gives you a lot of offensive pressure in your favor, and get the momentum turning towards your side.
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 131-155 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 167-197 (46 - 54.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(The Azumarill calc does not include if Light Screen is set by Klefki, however you're just as easily able to Will-O-Wisp it on the switch and seriously weaken it, give Tapu Koko will more than likely not be sacked)

Magearna also proves to be quite troublesome for Ground teams, especially regarding trick room as there's now no real way to revenge kill it once that's set up. Ice Beam and Z-Fluer Cannon is able to shred various holes and is very hard to tank unless your Hippowdon or Seismitoad are at full health (which by late game you can assume probably not). Camerupt is not only able to tank Magearna at +1 and avoid an OHKO (for an additional tibit, it's also able to tank up to +3 Fluer Cannon, with a 12.5% chance to live after SR, and a +1 Z-Fluer Cannon with less than a 3rd of a chance to OHKO after SR. I doubt you'd let Magearna get to that point with Mega Camerupt on your team, but regardless nice to know), it is additionally able to abuse Trick Room itself to its own advantage! This can immediately put serious pressure on an opposing Steel or Fairy team, or it could alternatively prevent them from even bothering setting it up given it opens up a huge advantage for you if they do.

Celesteela has proven to be arguably the biggest pain in the backside this generation for Ground, thanks to its immense bulk (being able to avoid a 2KO from both common Landorus-I and Nidoking sets), and its able to put massive dents into your team before you can actually kill it (which may not even happen once your wallbreakers are out). Camerupt proves to be the godsent answer in order to effectively check it!
0 Atk Celesteela Earthquake vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 146-172 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 192 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Celesteela: 344-408 (89.8 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Ground now has an official answer to something that was once able to sweep it with the team support steel provided (namely Heatran, Skarmory and/or Ferrothorn), and in return it's able to pack a massive punch back, or if not at the very least take out Heatran's Balloon.

Alongside that, it still retains its reliability as a Special Wallbreaker, where it holds true very little can effectively switch into this. landorus-T sticks out as the best partner you could give it besides a Water Absorber (which is a given already), thanks to the introduction of Z-Moves the Double Dance set is able to be abused a lot more, and with Z-Stone Edge you're able to get a 1 time powerful attack to break most things that would otherwise stop your sweep. It appreciates the burn absorbing Camerupt is able to provide, as well as its ease to break most common walls currently in the metagame. Mamoswine also works quite well with it, since it's priority comes quite in handy for things Camerupt hasn't quite killed (which is a semi-rare occurrence) and it helps alieviate the Dragon matchup significantly. Aside from the fact Camerupt will be useless against Water and its underwhelming speed, I believe it's actually pretty hard to pass up the power and its various quirks its able to provide that Mega Garchomp nor Mega Steelix (and if you want to count Dual Coat Mixed Mega Swampert) otherwise can't. Despite the very offensive flow of the current metagame, its bulk (which includes its typing) actually works very well for it surprisingly.

Take it while you have it, because after this I'll probably just remain lurking again in all honesty, but I felt compelled to really explain why this thing should be given a fair chance and why it could actually be improved compared to last generation. Not to shoot you down by any means smub, but I do think you are highly underestimating what Mega Camerupt could bring to the table. All in all it could actually be a wonderful and very refreshing addition to Ground teams in general. Here's a set I would reccomend:


Camerupt-Mega @ Cameruptite
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 168 HP / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature / Rash Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Rock Slide / Ancient Power
- Will-O-Wisp / Substitute /Stealth Rock

Thanks!
 
Last edited:
I never thought I would ever be posting here again, but I feel it is necessary here to actually make a case for Mega Camerupt, because I truly think you're severely underestimating how good this mon could actually be.

I'll start off with why it was a good mega choice in Generation 6. At the time Ground was (and to an extent still is) lacking in the special walbreaker department outside of Landorus-I (Nidoking can oftentimes be more or less underwhelming in actuality because it's lacking in power in general. Sheer Force and its arsenal of coverage do remedy this a little, but neutral base 85 Special Attack is nothing to brag about since this makes it avoid some crucial 2KO's and OHKOs). When people began using Mega Camerupt, including myself, while it did need a fair amount of team support, a lot of us realized thanks to a base 145 Special Attack, alongside Sheer Force and strong STABs, this thing hits like a truck. Very little can actually switch into it and not get 2KO'd, and the strong Fire coverage can be highly appreciated since it gives a very solid answer to Grass, Ice, while hitting a very large majority of the meta neutrally (the only real concern being Water, I really don't think I'd need to count Rock given Ground plows through that pretty easily). Secondly, it is a very solid Burn absorber, so you can easily switch it into most burn inducers and threaten them substantially (great examples being Torkoal w/ Lava Plume, Sableye, Mew, and honestly anything without scald); this is a great thing to consider due to the fact most Ground mons are Physical Attackers and don't appreciate the momentum drain once they are burnt (the damage wearing them down at a decent pace, as well as attack being halved). Thirdly, this is really more of a quirk if anything that you could probably go without this gen, but it made to be a great lure for a variety of threats (great exmaples being Gyarados on Flying, Azumarill, etc), and it wasn't very difficult to surprise burn them on the expected switchin.

Now, Generation 7 proves to be a lot more offense oriented as I've found compared to the widespread Balance in the previous metagame, however there are quite a few of the new threats introduced that Mega Camel is able to relatively easily check (due especially to not only its bulk, but the neutralities its Fire/Ground typing provides). Tapu Koko can be finicky due to the fact it oftentimes runs Grass Knot and Hidden Power Ice. While that itself is not super threatening, the speed tier it holds is, meaning it has the ability to put a major dent on Hippowdon on the switch with Grass Knot, it has the ability to revenge kill Garchomp and both Landorus's with HP Ice, and you can't easily send in Seismitoad/Gastrodon in either due to the 4x Grass weakness. That being said, you're only real checks are either Excadrill or if you decide to run a scarfer above Tapu Koko's speed tier. Mega Camerupt is easily able to not only switch in onto it, but make switching out substantially harder (Fire Blast alone is able to put in a good chip of damage against Rotom-W or Azumarill respectively, and if they're out early, almost nothing is able to tank a Fire Blast effectively). That gives you a lot of offensive pressure in your favor, and get the momentum turning towards your side.
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 131-155 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 167-197 (46 - 54.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(The Azumarill calc does not include if Light Screen is set by Klefki, however you're just as easily able to Will-O-Wisp it on the switch and seriously weaken it, give Tapu Koko will more than likely not be sacked)

Magearna also proves to be quite troublesome for Ground teams, especially regarding trick room as there's now no real way to revenge kill it once that's set up. Ice Beam and Z-Fluer Cannon is able to shred various holes and is very hard to tank unless your Hippowdon or Seismitoad are at full health (which by late game you can assume probably not). Camerupt is not only able to tank Magearna at +1 and avoid an OHKO (for an additional tibit, it's also able to tank up to +3 Fluer Cannon, with a 12.5% chance to live after SR, and a +1 Z-Fluer Cannon with less than a 3rd of a chance to OHKO after SR. I doubt you'd let Magearna get to that point with Mega Camerupt on your team, but regardless nice to know), it is additionally able to abuse Trick Room itself to its own advantage! This can immediately put serious pressure on an opposing Steel or Fairy team, or it could alternatively prevent them from even bothering setting it up given it opens up a huge advantage for you if they do.

Celesteela has proven to be arguably the biggest pain in the backside this generation for Ground, thanks to its immense bulk (being able to avoid a 2KO from both common Landorus-I and Nidoking sets), and its able to put massive dents into your team before you can actually kill it (which may not even happen once your wallbreakers are out). Camerupt proves to be the godsent answer in order to effectively check it!
0 Atk Celesteela Earthquake vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 146-172 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 192 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Celesteela: 344-408 (89.8 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Ground now has an official answer to something that was once able to sweep it with the team support steel provided (namely Heatran, Skarmory and/or Ferrothorn), and in return it's able to pack a massive punch back, or if not at the very least take out Heatran's Balloon.

Alongside that, it still retains its reliability as a Special Wallbreaker, where it holds true very little can effectively switch into this. landorus-T sticks out as the best partner you could give it besides a Water Absorber (which is a given already), thanks to the introduction of Z-Moves the Double Dance set is able to be abused a lot more, and with Z-Stone Edge you're able to get a 1 time powerful attack to break most things that would otherwise stop your sweep. It appreciates the burn absorbing Camerupt is able to provide, as well as its ease to break most common walls currently in the metagame. Mamoswine also works quite well with it, since it's priority comes quite in handy for things Camerupt hasn't quite killed (which is a semi-rare occurrence) and it helps alieviate the Dragon matchup significantly. Aside from the fact Camerupt will be useless against Water and its underwhelming speed, I believe it's actually pretty hard to pass up the power and its various quirks its able to provide that Mega Garchomp nor Mega Steelix (and if you want to count Dual Coat Mixed Mega Swampert) otherwise can't. Despite the very offensive flow of the current metagame, its bulk (which includes its typing) actually works very well for it surprisingly.

Take it while you have it, because after this I'll probably just remain lurking again in all honesty, but I felt compelled to really explain why this thing should be given a fair chance and why it could actually be improved compared to last generation. Not to shoot you down by any means smub, but I do think you are highly underestimating what Mega Camerupt could bring to the table. All in all it could actually be a wonderful and very refreshing addition to Ground teams in general. Here's a set I would reccomend:


Camerupt-Mega @ Cameruptite
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 168 HP / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Rock Slide / Ancient Power
- Will-O-Wisp / Substitute /Stealth Rock

Thanks!

I will admit that I underestimated Mega Camerupt and what it could offer for Ground teams. However, I have some things to say about your points for Gen 7. Regarding Tapu Koko, there's another Mega for Ground teams that I brought up in my earlier post that also very easily switches into Tapu Koko: Mega Steelix. Mega Steelix can not only easily switch into Tapu Koko, but it also takes less damage from Tapu Koko's potential coverage than Mega Camerupt will:

252 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Steelix-Mega: 45-54 (12.7 - 15.2%) -- possible 7HKO

252 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 51-61 (14.8 - 17.7%) -- possible 6HKO

And once Tapu Koko is forced out, Mega Steelix can very easily either set up Stealth Rock(just like Mega Camerupt may do) or predict a switch and go for Dragon Tail to cause more phasing and more chip damage to be taken if Stealth Rock has already been set. Nothing on Fairy will be openly switching into Mega Steelix, especially in sand, and while it can't do much damage to Rotom-Wash in the Electric matchup, that just gives Seismitoad/Gastrodon a free Knock Off/Toxic on whatever they want. For what you said about Magearna, my main question is: what was the point of bringing up Ice Beam? It literally sees next to no usage on Magearna, and everything on Ground teams that gets blown back by Ice Beam also get blown back by a Twinkle Tackle. You'd be better off bringing up Aura Sphere/Focus Blast, since they'll actually be helpful for removing Excadrill while also being a generally common and useful coverage option in the metagame. This is something that I see really often yet don't understand, and I feel like a lot of arguments involving Magearna would be stronger if they simply didn't mention such irrelevant coverage moves. And on the topic of it taking advantage of TR, yet again, Mega Steelix also takes advantage of this, and while it won't be able to OHKO the same way Mega Camerupt does, it can wear it down for potentially something else to finish the job, whether it be Hippowdon or even Gastrodon, since they both also underspeed Magearna in TR. While this would mean sacrificing a mon, Ground teams are generally always forced to sack a mon whenever Magearna gets up TR for free, so it isn't saying much. I do agree with all the points you made about Celesteela and the Steel matchup, and that Mega Camerupt is capable of bypassing the incredible team support that makes Celesteela such a large threat for Ground teams. Regarding your points on Mega Camerupt's teammates, I can make a lot of the same points for Mega Steelix, since it can not only switch into Choice Scarf Tapu Bulu decently well(which EVERYTHING on Ground teams appreciates), but it's also capable of checking many threats on Ice teams just like Mega Camerupt does. It also frees a moveslot for Hippowdon, allowing it to run Toxic while Mega Steelix can serve its Stealth Rocking role. Mega Steelix also synergizes greatly with both Landoruses, being able to comfortably switch into Ice type attacks for them(much better than Mega Camerupt does). Landorus in particular is worth bringing up, since they're the special wallbreakers that at times will have to compete with Mega Camerupt. Resurging the point about Choice Scarf Tapu Bulu, it's one of the only things on Grass that'll be outspeeding Landorus(outside of maybe Scarf Rotom-Mow, which Mega Steelix also switches into). Being able to check it so easily will give Landorus a much, MUCH easier time against Grass, since next to nothing will be able to switch in or even potentially revenge kill. The rise of some of these new threats in Gen 7 not only impact Mega Camerupt's usage and viability, but they also impact Mega Steelix's. Whether Tapu Bulu or Celesteela(2 insane Gen 7 threats to Ground) are more of an issue is further debatable and can also depend on team composition.

However, I do understand the points you brought up and the set that you offered. This argument has not only made me learn more about Mega Camerupt's influence, but it's also encouraging me to try it out a bit more. Thanks for your response :)

Edit: removed mentions of Grass Knot
 
Last edited:
I will admit that I underestimated Mega Camerupt and what it could offer for Ground teams. However, I have some things to say about your points for Gen 7. Regarding Tapu Koko, there's another Mega for Ground teams that I brought up in my earlier post that also very easily switches into Tapu Koko: Mega Steelix. Mega Steelix can not only easily switch into Tapu Koko, but it also takes less damage from a Grass Knot than Mega Camerupt will:

252 SpA Tapu Koko Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Steelix-Mega: 90-107 (25.4 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO(HP Fire does the same amount btw)

252 SpA Tapu Koko Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 102-120 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- 14% chance to 3HKO(and this is assuming it isn't running any Speed investment)


And once Tapu Koko is forced out, Mega Steelix can very easily either set up Stealth Rock(just like Mega Camerupt may do) or predict a switch and go for Dragon Tail to cause more phasing and more chip damage to be taken if Stealth Rock has already been set. Nothing on Fairy will be openly switching into Mega Steelix, especially in sand, and while it can't do much damage to Rotom-Wash in the Electric matchup, that just gives Seismitoad/Gastrodon a free Knock Off/Toxic on whatever they want. For what you said about Magearna, my main question is: what was the point of bringing up Ice Beam? It literally sees next to no usage on Magearna, and everything on Ground teams that gets blown back by Ice Beam also get blown back by a Twinkle Tackle. You'd be better off bringing up Aura Sphere/Focus Blast, since they'll actually be helpful for removing Excadrill while also being a generally common and useful coverage option in the metagame. This is something that I see really often yet don't understand, and I feel like a lot of arguments involving Magearna would be stronger if they simply didn't mention such irrelevant coverage moves. And on the topic of it taking advantage of TR, yet again, Mega Steelix also takes advantage of this, and while it won't be able to OHKO the same way Mega Camerupt does, it can wear it down for potentially something else to finish the job, whether it be Hippowdon or even Gastrodon, since they both also underspeed Magearna in TR. While this would mean sacrificing a mon, Ground teams are generally always forced to sack a mon whenever Magearna gets up TR for free, so it isn't saying much. I do agree with all the points you made about Celesteela and the Steel matchup, and that Mega Camerupt is capable of bypassing the incredible team support that makes Celesteela such a large threat for Ground teams. Regarding your points on Mega Camerupt's teammates, I can make a lot of the same points for Mega Steelix, since it can not only switch into Choice Scarf Tapu Bulu decently well(which EVERYTHING on Ground teams appreciates), but it's also capable of checking many threats on Ice teams just like Mega Camerupt does. It also frees a moveslot for Hippowdon, allowing it to run Toxic while Mega Steelix can serve its Stealth Rocking role. Mega Steelix also synergizes greatly with both Landoruses, being able to comfortably switch into Ice type attacks for them(much better than Mega Camerupt does). Landorus in particular is worth bringing up, since they're the special wallbreakers that at times will have to compete with Mega Camerupt. Resurging the point about Choice Scarf Tapu Bulu, it's one of the only things on Grass that'll be outspeeding Landorus(outside of maybe Scarf Rotom-Mow, which Mega Steelix also switches into). Being able to check it so easily will give Landorus a much, MUCH easier time against Grass, since next to nothing will be able to switch in or even potentially revenge kill. The rise of some of these new threats in Gen 7 not only impact Mega Camerupt's usage and viability, but they also impact Mega Steelix's. Whether Tapu Bulu or Celesteela(2 insane Gen 7 threats to Ground) are more of an issue is further debatable and can also depend on team composition.

However, I do understand the points you brought up and the set that you offered. This argument has not only made me learn more about Mega Camerupt's influence, but it's also encouraging me to try it out a bit more. Thanks for your response :)
I'm not really a part of this, but you ask why he brought up ice beam on magearna because it sees little to no usage, yet you bring up grass knot on tapu koko...
 

Eien

I'll face myself
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
Monotype Leader
Mega Camerupt's viability hasn't taken a turn for the better since last generation. It's still an inferior Mega Evolution when compared to Mega Garchomp. It's usable as a tech against Assault Vest Celesteela, but there are other tech options that also beat Assault Vest Celesteela. Sadly, that is the end of any use Mega Camerupt has. Unlike Mega Garchomp, it has no hope of actually checking Tapu Bulu, and Tapu Bulu is one of the biggest threats to Ground. Even Flying, which Ground used to at least sort of enjoy having Mega Camerupt to break, now has Mantine, which is a guaranteed switch-in every time. Calm Mind Mega Sableye is rarer than ever, which was the only set that Mega Camerupt could exclusively counter, and Landorus can easily handle utility variants. If you're very afraid of Assault Vest Celesteela and don't want to use your other options for one reason or another, then Mega Camerupt is usable, I suppose. Outside of that, it somehow got even worse than it already was last generation, which is honestly quite a feat, and probably shouldn't be used much at all.
 
I will admit that I underestimated Mega Camerupt and what it could offer for Ground teams. However, I have some things to say about your points for Gen 7. Regarding Tapu Koko, there's another Mega for Ground teams that I brought up in my earlier post that also very easily switches into Tapu Koko: Mega Steelix. Mega Steelix can not only easily switch into Tapu Koko, but it also takes less damage from Tapu Koko's potential coverage than Mega Camerupt will:

252 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Steelix-Mega: 45-54 (12.7 - 15.2%) -- possible 7HKO

252 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 51-61 (14.8 - 17.7%) -- possible 6HKO

And once Tapu Koko is forced out, Mega Steelix can very easily either set up Stealth Rock(just like Mega Camerupt may do) or predict a switch and go for Dragon Tail to cause more phasing and more chip damage to be taken if Stealth Rock has already been set. Nothing on Fairy will be openly switching into Mega Steelix, especially in sand, and while it can't do much damage to Rotom-Wash in the Electric matchup, that just gives Seismitoad/Gastrodon a free Knock Off/Toxic on whatever they want. For what you said about Magearna, my main question is: what was the point of bringing up Ice Beam? It literally sees next to no usage on Magearna, and everything on Ground teams that gets blown back by Ice Beam also get blown back by a Twinkle Tackle. You'd be better off bringing up Aura Sphere/Focus Blast, since they'll actually be helpful for removing Excadrill while also being a generally common and useful coverage option in the metagame. This is something that I see really often yet don't understand, and I feel like a lot of arguments involving Magearna would be stronger if they simply didn't mention such irrelevant coverage moves. And on the topic of it taking advantage of TR, yet again, Mega Steelix also takes advantage of this, and while it won't be able to OHKO the same way Mega Camerupt does, it can wear it down for potentially something else to finish the job, whether it be Hippowdon or even Gastrodon, since they both also underspeed Magearna in TR. While this would mean sacrificing a mon, Ground teams are generally always forced to sack a mon whenever Magearna gets up TR for free, so it isn't saying much. I do agree with all the points you made about Celesteela and the Steel matchup, and that Mega Camerupt is capable of bypassing the incredible team support that makes Celesteela such a large threat for Ground teams. Regarding your points on Mega Camerupt's teammates, I can make a lot of the same points for Mega Steelix, since it can not only switch into Choice Scarf Tapu Bulu decently well(which EVERYTHING on Ground teams appreciates), but it's also capable of checking many threats on Ice teams just like Mega Camerupt does. It also frees a moveslot for Hippowdon, allowing it to run Toxic while Mega Steelix can serve its Stealth Rocking role. Mega Steelix also synergizes greatly with both Landoruses, being able to comfortably switch into Ice type attacks for them(much better than Mega Camerupt does). Landorus in particular is worth bringing up, since they're the special wallbreakers that at times will have to compete with Mega Camerupt. Resurging the point about Choice Scarf Tapu Bulu, it's one of the only things on Grass that'll be outspeeding Landorus(outside of maybe Scarf Rotom-Mow, which Mega Steelix also switches into). Being able to check it so easily will give Landorus a much, MUCH easier time against Grass, since next to nothing will be able to switch in or even potentially revenge kill. The rise of some of these new threats in Gen 7 not only impact Mega Camerupt's usage and viability, but they also impact Mega Steelix's. Whether Tapu Bulu or Celesteela(2 insane Gen 7 threats to Ground) are more of an issue is further debatable and can also depend on team composition.

However, I do understand the points you brought up and the set that you offered. This argument has not only made me learn more about Mega Camerupt's influence, but it's also encouraging me to try it out a bit more. Thanks for your response :)

Edit: removed mentions of Grass Knot
I appreciate the polite response, by all means, but I have a couple nitpicks about what you said. I'll try to keep this short and sweet because I already wrote quite a large essay.

1. The calcs you made don't have a huge ton of relevance, given Mega Steelix only out-bulks Mega Camerupt by such a minuscule amount.

2. Magearna is very much so a moldable Pokemon that can provide coverage for what your team is lacking/what specific threats you want to bypass and check. While Ice Beam may not be the "popular" choice, it is still a thing that is around for the benefit of covering up a certain weakness the team has (which in most likely Steel's case would be for Ground, not to mention its good to know Tbolt and Ice beam give it neutral coverage, never a bad bet).

3. Mega Steelix and Mega Camerupt play two absolutely different roles on teams. As I said Mega Camerupt is a Special Wallbreaker, something aforementioned Ground's options are very limited. Mega Steelix tends to be either a Defensive Pivot or Tank, something that ground tends to have a surplus of (Hippowdon, Gastrodon, Seismitoad you could argue, certain Garchomp variants). That being said, Mega Steelix tends to be harder to fit onto teams as opposed to something Ground needs (it really depends on what you put in support with it and the play style you;re aiming for, but most times than not Ground tends to be more on the lines of a more offensive-oriented balance, or more commonly bulky offense)

4. Back to Mega Steelix's role, while it is extremely bulky, with that it can either be underwhelming as an attacker (especially if you decide to run a Curse set), and it does not have access to reliable recovery, so it gets worn down quickly by hazards and it can't replenish lost damage without risking sleep for a couple turns running rest (which also results in a massive momentum drain). In general its very hard to fit and acclimate successfully into a well built team.

Not that I oppose everything you said entirely (Tapu Bulu was a valid point, but at the same time there are other reliable checks that don't take up a mega slot, i.e. Scarf Garchomp) but I hope what I'm saying makes sense.

Mega Camerupt's viability hasn't taken a turn for the better since last generation. It's still an inferior Mega Evolution when compared to Mega Garchomp. It's usable as a tech against Assault Vest Celesteela, but there are other tech options that also beat Assault Vest Celesteela. Sadly, that is the end of any use Mega Camerupt has. Unlike Mega Garchomp, it has no hope of actually checking Tapu Bulu, and Tapu Bulu is one of the biggest threats to Ground. Even Flying, which Ground used to at least sort of enjoy having Mega Camerupt to break, now has Mantine, which is a guaranteed switch-in every time. Calm Mind Mega Sableye is rarer than ever, which was the only set that Mega Camerupt could exclusively counter, and Landorus can easily handle utility variants. If you're very afraid of Assault Vest Celesteela and don't want to use your other options for one reason or another, then Mega Camerupt is usable, I suppose. Outside of that, it somehow got even worse than it already was last generation, which is honestly quite a feat, and probably shouldn't be used much at all.
Personally I disagree with all do respect, but, you are entitled to your own opinion by all means. If anything, replays would be good (I don't plan to post anymore than this in all honesty however) to consolidate that, given my other points were kinda ignored apparently (especially the fact that very very few can actually switch onto a Mega Camerupt with good prediction behind it).
 
Last edited:

Eien

I'll face myself
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
Monotype Leader
Okay, well I felt a bit bad about how wrong you were because you haven't been part of the community in quite some time. If you insist, though, I will happily correct you. I'm just going to ignore the ORAS part because this is clearly the SM thread.

First, Tapu Koko almost never uses Grass Knot on either type. It is not a good coverage move and is definitely not used at all by most good players. Second, even when it does, Mega Garchomp, Garchomp, Landorus, and Landorus-T all do not get OHKOed by Hidden Power Ice anyway, and Gastrodon and Seismitoad do not get OHKOed by Grass Knot. Tapu Koko is not a threat to Ground teams. The threat is Tapu Bulu, which actually does break Ground teams. So if we ignore the terrible move you thought Tapu Koko used, Seismitoad, which is on most Ground teams now because it is needed to check Z-Belly Drum Azumarill, is a complete counter to it and switches in very often.

Magearna is also not a threat. Most Magearna sets do not use Ice Beam because they prefer the coverage of Fairy + Electric + Fighting and the use of Flash Cannon. Magearna can at best set Trick Room one time and unless it must have Twinkle Tackle to actually be a threat. Electrium Z, Steelium Z, and Fightinium Z sets do not have the power to break Hippowdon or Seismitoad. Either way, Magearna is checked by Nidoking if it lacks Flash Cannon, and it rarely gets a chance to safely set Trick Room. Magearna really isn't as big of a threat as you claim.

What does it matter if Mega Camerupt can take out Heatran's Air Balloon? The threat is always almost solely Assault Vest Celesteela. The Air Balloon is nice, but no one's going to use Mega Camerupt for Heatran when you can just use Mega Garchomp instead, which is actually a threat to the defensive core.

It doesn't have reliability as a special wallbreaker at all in this generation. In fact, it's the worst special wallbreaker in almost every matchup. Actually, it's so bad, I can't even think of a real matchup it's good in outside of Ice. Against Fairy, Steel, Psychic, Flying, Normal, Ground, Poison, Electric, Water, Bug, Dark, Dragon, Ghost, Grass, Fighting, Rock, and Fire, Mega Camerupt is worse than Landorus, Mega Garchomp, and/or Nidoking, often more than one of those three. Congratulations, you have a Pokemon that's literally only good against Ice.

I appreciate your attempt to contribute to the discussion, but you should strongly consider becoming more familiar with the SM Monotype metagame first.
 
I made a Mega Banette set for fun, and it's looking pretty well.

Banette-Mega @ Banettite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond
- Shadow Sneak
- Knock Off


Taunt the opponent to lock the opponent into attacks, then pull a destiny bond, or predict a switch and go for knock off. Shadow Sneak is used over Sucker Punch because even thought it is weak, it does get STAB and hit fighting types neutrally. The 4 EVs in speed are used to speed creep Bulky Mega Scizor and take it down with Destiny Bond.
I made a team to go along with it, and its doing pretty well.

Gaster (Gengar) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Thunderbolt

Papyrus (Golurk) @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 8 SpD / 248 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Scald

Mimikyu @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance

Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Energy Ball
- Flamethrower
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Shadow Ball

Banette-Mega @ Banettite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Taunt
- Shadow Sneak
- Knock Off
- Destiny Bond


I have some replays with the team, and here they are:


So yeah, I'm experimenting with Mega Banette at the moment. I personally think its a really cool Pokemon, especially with the Mega Evo rule this gen, giving it Prankster turn 1. Sorry for derailing the discussion, but tell me what you guys think.
 
Last edited:
Water is not that bad in this metagame, surely it has hard time against fairy due to the presence of tapu bulu and tapu koko which makes the match up difficult. However the reason I think water was used a lot is because it has great defensive cores when talking about balance teams which puts in a lot of work vs other types and it has decent match ups all around owing to the fact that water is a good offensive typing and it has some good attackers in Gyarados, Azumarill,Greninja,Keldeo,Mega sharpedo which threaten a lot of types on its own.
Analysis
Water teams have huge weakness to tapu bulu as banded tapu bulu can just get a kill everytime it comes in and water teams are also weak to tapu koko which puts a lot of pressure to preserve the electric immunity on the team. Water on the other hand has handful of checks to tapu bulu:
1. Tapu Bulu:

Tapu Bulu @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Stone Edge /Zen Headbutt
- Superpower
- Horn Leech
1.Gyarados

Gyarados @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Bounce
Gyarados can check banded tapu bulu with Flyinium Z as it is a guaranteed ohko:
252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 450-530 (160.1 - 188.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However gyarados cant switch into banded bulu.
2.Greninja:

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Fire
- Extrasensory
- Gunk Shot
Greninja checks tapu bulu as it can ohko it with either ice beam or gunk shot
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 343-406 (122 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 567-676 (201.7 - 240.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
3.Tentacruel:

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP / 200 SpD / 56 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Sludge Bomb
- Toxic Spikes
Tentacruel surprisingly can check tapu bulu, it is something I have used in my mono water teams with good success to catch tapu bulu. Tentcruel with 56 spe evs(250) outspeed banded adamant tapu bulu( 249 speed) and can ohko with sludge bomb.
0 SpA Tentacruel Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 336-400 (119.5 - 142.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4. Volcanion:

Volcanion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fire Blast
- Steam Eruption
- Sludge Wave
- Rock Slide
Volcanion can check tapu bulu as it straight away one shots tapu bulu with either fire blast or sludge wave.
216 SpA Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 368-434 (130.9 - 154.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216 SpA Volcanion Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 424-500 (150.8 - 177.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
5. Pelipper:

Pelipper @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Hurricane
- Ice Beam
- U-turn
These were some of the offensive checks to tapu bulu.
Scarf tapu bulu which has seen some usage in tours is also very threatening to mono water teams as it gets past it usual offensive checks.

6.Swampert-Mega

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 228 Atk / 28 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Waterfall
- Sludge Wave
Mega swampert is a good lure to tapu bulu as it can ohko tapu bulu with sludge wave as it will outspeed tapu bulu in rain:
28 SpA Swampert-Mega Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 284-336 (101 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

2. Tapu koko:

Tapu Koko @ Magnet
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice
- U-turn
[fairy pivot set]
Tapu koko is handled by the electric immunity that water has in the form of:
1. Lanturn:

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 40 HP / 216 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Scald
- Toxic
- Heal Bell
Lanturn walls tapu koko due to its ability volt absorb and can switch in on tapu koko with impunity and can either put it on timer with toxic or damage it with scald if it stays in.
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 40 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 91-108 (22.6 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tapu Koko Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 62-74 (15.4 - 18.4%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
2. Swampert:

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Scald
- Roar
Swampert also checks tapu koko fairly well due to its ground immunity and it has decent chance to ohko if koko stays in:
0 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 266-314 (94.6 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Swampert: 115-136 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
However swampert must be wary of grass knot:
252 SpA Tapu Koko Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Swampert: 304-360 (75.8 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Swampert Mega:

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Ice Punch
- Stealth Rock
Mega swampert outspeeds and one shots tapu koko in rain with its stab earthquake.
252 Atk Swampert-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 414-488 (147.3 - 173.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However here again it should be cautious of grass knot.
3. Seismitoad:

Seismitoad @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Hydro Pump
- Stealth Rock
Here similar to mega swampert, sesimitoad in rain also checks tapu koko easily as it outspeeds and kills with earth power:
252 SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 367-432 (130.6 - 153.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4. Quagsire:

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Scald
Quagsire though not commonly found on mono water teams( found on stall builds) can check tapu koko as well with earthquake.
However like every water/ground type it should be wary of grass knot.
While offensively tapu koko can be handled by scarf greninja as it can ohko with gunkshot.

Lets go through some of the other threats to water teams and how water deals with it.
1. Mega venusaur:

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 28 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb / Leech Seed
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Synthesis
Mega venusaur is a threat as it can threaten the both defensive and offensive cores on mono water teams. Its good bulk, access to recovery moves in leech seed and synthesis makes it harder to take down.
1.Gyarados

Gyarados @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Bounce
Flyinium z gyarados is not only a good set up sweeper but it also checks threats to water such as tapu bulu,breloom and mega venusaur.
252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 326-386 (89.5 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 96-114 (29 - 34.4%) -- 3.6% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 115-136 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
2.Pelipper:

Pelipper @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Hurricane
- Ice Beam
- U-turn
252 SpA Pelipper Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 242-288 (66.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Pelipper can effectively 2hko mega venusaur with stab hurricane and can defeat Mega venusaur 1v1.
3. Mega Sharpedo:

Sharpedo @ Sharpedonite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Psychic Fangs
- Waterfall
- Protect
Mega sharpedo can check mega venusaur once it is weakened as then mega sharpedo can pick it off using psychic fang as psychic fangs from mega sharpedo are a guaranteed 2hko on mega venusaur:
252 Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 188-222 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4. Greninja:

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Fire
- Extrasensory
- Gunk Shot
Greninja checks mega venusaur with a combination of gunk shot and extrasensory however it has to be wary of muk-alola switching in when facing mono poison teams:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 242-289 (66.4 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

5. Manaphy:

Manaphy @ Waterium Z
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Rain Dance
- Psychic
- Scald
Tail glow manaphy also checks mega venusaur fairly easily as it has great 100/100/100 bulk which lets it set up tail glow easily and take out mega venusaur with psychic. It puts a lot of work vs poison teams as well.
Mega Venusaur is also hard walled on water by Toxapex and mantine:
6.Toxapex:

Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Scald
- Recover
- Haze

7.Mantine:

Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald /Air Slash
- Toxic
- Defog
- Roost

2. Magearna:
Magearna due to its high nautral bulk and variety of sets is a threat to mono water teams.

1.Magearna @ Assault Vest
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 200 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpA / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Aura Sphere
- Flash Cannon

2.Magearna @ Choice Specs
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fleur Cannon
- Aura Sphere
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon

3.Magearna @ Fairium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shift Gear
- Fleur Cannon
- Aura Sphere
- Thunderbolt

4.Magearna @ Fairium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
IVs: 0 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Trick Room
- Fleur Cannon
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt

5.Magearna @ Fairium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Fleur Cannon
- Aura Sphere
- Thunderbolt

Magearna is a much bigger threat than tapu bulu because usually what checks magearna on water loses to other variation of magearna set. for example: Keldeo checks specs magearna with some prior damage:
1.Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Scald
Calculations:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 237-280 (78.7 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
However it loses to AV magearna and TR Magearna:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 159-187 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 510-600 (157.8 - 185.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Same for Greninja:
2.Greninja:

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Fire
- Extrasensory
- Gunk Shot
it 2hkoes magearna with hp fire however it is beaten by AV set 1v1:
Calculations:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 133-156 (37.8 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 686-810 (240.7 - 284.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
3.Volcanion:

Volcanion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fire Blast
- Steam Eruption
- Sludge Wave
- Rock Slide
Volcanion OHKOs with fire blast:
216 SpA Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 312-368 (103.6 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4.Swampert:

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Scald
- Roar
Or
Swampert Mega:

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Ice Punch
- Stealth Rock
Swampert can check magearna as it can make it weak enough for a teammate to finish it off easily however specs set of magearna can beat swampert 1v1.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Swampert: 381-448 (94.3 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 206-246 (58.1 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 356-420 (100.5 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega swampert can ohko magearna with earthquake however it loses to trick room set:
252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swampert-Mega: 322-379 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
This is the case with most types as magearna has like 5 viable sets and so things which checks magearna on water loses to other variations of its sets. That's magearna for you.

3. Mega Charizard Y:
Mega charizard is a threat to mono water teams as it has drought which weakens water type moves and it can shred apart water teams with its solarbeam

Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Focus Blast
- Roost
1.Toxapex:

Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Scald
- Recover
- Haze
Toxapex easily counters Mega charizard Y for mono water teams as it can easily sponge solarbeam due to neutrality to grass type moves and a high bulk along with regenerator and access to recover.
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 85-101 (27.9 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Sun: 88-104 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 2.3% chance to 3HKO
Then toxapex can cripple Mega charizard Y with toxic and stall it out with recover.
2. Mantine:

Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic
- Defog
- Roost
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine in Sun: 105-124 (28 - 33.1%) -- 90.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 102-121 (27.2 - 32.3%) -- 61% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Easily walled by mantine.
Then there are some offensive checks like Mega sharpedo which can ohko with some prior damage and scarf volcanion which ohkos with rock slide. Specs keldeo which dents Mega charizard Y,killing it if it is weakened.

Conclusion:
These were some of the threats to water teams and how water handles it, lets take a look now at some of the types that water has good match up against:
1. Psychic:Mono psychic teams are threatened by Mega sharpedo,Mega Gyarados and Greninja which puts a lot of pressure on psychic teams in Water vs Psychic match up.
2.Ground: Water has good match up vs ground due to the obvious type advantage over it.
3.Ghost: Mono water teams yet again have good match up vs ghost teams as Mega Sharpedo,Greninja,Mega Gyarados all put a lot of pressure on ghost teams can take out majority of pokemon on ghost mono.
4.Dark: Water has good match up vs mono dark teams because water generally runs either tapu fini or azumarill which put a lot of work vs dark match up. The match up is more lopsided if water team is running keldeo.
so to sum it up: water handles things that beats it fairly well while also being able to have decent match ups vs other types such as Bug,Flying,Dragon,Poison etc.
(S/O to Izaya for help, thanks!)
How can you talk about check/counters to bulu on water and not mention sap sipper azu lmao
 
How can you talk about check/counters to bulu on water and not mention sap sipper azu lmao
I have listed offensive checks for bulu and sap sipper azumarill gets 2hko by stone edge
252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 215-254 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
so that is the reason why I did not list it, It is indeed a check however.
 

dhaarma

formerly HNBL
Looks like Marshadow is finally out and usable. This is by far my most awaited release, it just seems like a solid mon and turns out people in the mono room are already wanting it banned less than an hour after it's usable.
Despite being an offensive mon, it's bulk seems pretty usable with a solid 90/80/90 in defensive stats. It's offensive stats are far more impressive with a juicy 125/90/125, and seems capable of even running a mixed set to catch a check off guard. It's Speed also lets it outspeed Greninja, which is great for a type like Ghost which has to rely on things like scarf Gengar to check it otherwise.
It looks like there are a few ways of running this thing, a Marshadium Z set seems quite fun to use, but i can see people running a Choice Band on this as well. A bulk up set with Drain Punch seems usable as well, and thanks to Technician, it may even run things like Hidden Power Ice to throw off things like defensive Garchomp.
 
Marshadow the Movie: The Calcs Awaken

Please do not argue with me about whether or not this Pokemon is broken or not. All I'm doing is posting calcs and saying what it says.

I made sure to use only 4 moves: Spectral Thief, Close Combat, Shadow Sneak, Ice Punch, and the nature is Jolly.

Feel free to let me know your opinions on Marshadow after seeing these calcs in the comment section down below.

And make sure to hit that Like button if you enjoyed!

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 374-445 (142.7 - 169.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 273-322 (104.5 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu: 299-354 (119.1 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 229-273 (72.9 - 86.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Jellicent: 367-432 (91 - 107.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Sableye-Mega: 140-165 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 174-211 (54 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 234-276 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Ghost has 0 switch ins

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 257-304 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 658-775 (93.5 - 110.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Staraptor: 149-177 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pidgeot-Mega: 298-351 (97 - 114.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 308-363 (76.2 - 89.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Fluffy Bewear: 299-354 (67.3 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Normal has 0 switch ins

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Victini: 276-328 (80.9 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 351-416 (139.8 - 165.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 374-439 (92.5 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 374-439 (92.5 - 108.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 174-211 (44.1 - 53.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 299-354 (99.3 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 195-229 (64.1 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Cresselia: 242-283 (54.5 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Psychic has 0 switch ins

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 48 Def Scizor-Mega: 179-212 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsir-Mega: 160-188 (59 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 263-309 (84.5 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Armaldo: 196-231 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 142-168 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 142-168 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Heracross-Mega: 165-196 (50.1 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Bug has 2 Pokemon that can avoid being 2HKOed but its not looking great

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 175-207 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Dark has 0 switch ins
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 216-255 (66.8 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 130-153 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Ice punch into Sneak kills Dragonite
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 333-395 (79.8 - 94.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 499-588 (127.6 - 150.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 299-354 (100 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 226-268 (67.6 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 331-391 (86.1 - 101.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp-Mega: 369-437 (103 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dragon has 0 switch ins

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu-Alola: 432-510 (166.7 - 196.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 212-251 (75.4 - 89.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 172-203 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Zapdos: 234-276 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Electric has 0 switch ins

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 224-265 (65.6 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Klefki: 266-316 (83.6 - 99.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 220-261 (73 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 185-218 (65.6 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 196-231 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Fairy has 0 switch ins

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 270-320 (83.5 - 99%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 142-168 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 398-471 (103.1 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 195-230 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Fighting has 1 switch in that does not get 2HKOed which is Buzzwole

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 142-168 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 138-164 (36 - 42.8%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Fire has 0 switch ins

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Mantine: 187-220 (50 - 58.8%) -- 70.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Landorus-Therian: 218-260 (57 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 142-168 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 237-281 (61.7 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 242-285 (60.8 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Flying has 0 switch ins

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 121-142 (33.2 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 234-276 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 44 Def Amoonguss: 235-278 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cradily: 507-601 (134.8 - 159.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Grass has 1 really good switch in which is Mega-Venusaur outside of that nothing else switches in

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 160-188 (38 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 214-253 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 227-269 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Landorus-Therian: 218-260 (57 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swampert-Mega: 230-270 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Steelix-Mega: 211-250 (59.6 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 199-235 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ground has 1 switch in which is Hippowdon

I am skipping ice calcs as I can only assume everything dies to close combat.

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 121-142 (33.2 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 99-118 (32.5 - 38.8%) -- 4.6% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 224-265 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 208-247 (54.1 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 125-148 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- 72.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 99-118 (29.7 - 35.4%) -- 28% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 129-152 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Poison by far has the best match up with it so far having 4 Pokemon able to switch in, its a shame 2 of them are not viable at all

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 298-351 (68.8 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Rock has 0 switch ins.

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 200 HP / 12 Def Magearna: 218-257 (62.1 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 142-168 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 52% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 242-285 (60.8 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Ferrothorn: 374-439 (106.2 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 48 Def Scizor-Mega: 179-212 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 174-211 (54 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Steel has 0 switch in... Eien :^]

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 227-269 (68.5 - 81.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 174-211 (44.1 - 53.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 191-226 (47.2 - 55.9%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 99-118 (32.5 - 38.8%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 207-243 (42.5 - 49.8%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 220-261 (54.4 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 172-203 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 134-160 (41.4 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Water has 2 switch ins if you include Alo.


Eien: Please don't all caps and all bold your messages again.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Adding on to this, I'd like to talk about the team support that Marshadow is provided for both its types. I'll start this off with the better of Marshadow's two types: Ghost.


Ghost

Looking at Marshadow's incredible 125 Speed, it's capable of outspeeding a large majority of the unboosted metagame, with the exceptions of Tapu Koko, Crobat, and Mega Aerodactyl. These 3 Pokemon are among the few that can reliably outspeed and take out Marshadow(granted some need prior chip damage), as seen here:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow in Electric Terrain: 291-343 (90.6 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

0 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 288-338 (89.7 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 318-374 (99 - 116.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

There are also some Choice Scarf Pokemon like Meloetta and Staraptor which can very easily dispose of non-Scarf variants. Against Tapu Koko, Marshadow can fall back on Alolan Marowak, who very easily switches into any Tapu Koko variant and can force it out, getting either a free powerful Shadow Bone against any potential switch-in on Fairy or Electric, or getting up free Stealth Rock, making Marshadow's presence even more threatening. Mega Sableye is able to keep Sticky Web away in the Bug and Rock matchups, which lets Marshadow effectively revenge kill the faster threats like +1 Volcarona if it's a Scarf set, or Terrakion and Nihilego if it's a Band/LO set. Mega Sableye along with Jellicent grants Marshadow an effective defensive backbone to fall on to aid in a multitude of matchups such as Water, Dark, Ghost, Poison, etc. Gengar is undoubtedly one of Marshadow's best partners, forming an offensive core that is very easy to diversify if needed. As a Scarf cleaner, Gengar can revenge kill fast threats like Tapu Koko and Scarf Tapu Bulu while Marshadow can fill a Band/LO wallbreaking set capable of breaking through balance builds like Dark and Normal that Gengar has trouble dealing with. Marshadow can also effectively fill a Choice Scarf role, being able to remove +2 Landorus-Therian if it's Adamant, as well as Excadrill in sand, which is very beneficial for Ghost teams considering the incredibly problematic Ground matchup, and Gengar can fill a wallbreaking role with a Life Orb/Choice Specs in order to get past some of Marshadow's usual defensive checks in Torkoal and Toxapex. Mimikyu also forms a powerful offensive core with Marshadow, not only being an overall solid blanket check thanks to its Disguise, but also helping Marshadow break through balance Dark builds easier, since Mega Sableye can give Marshadow a hard time. There's much more, but I think I covered a lot of it for the most part.

Now for the least relevant of Marshadow's types: Fighting.

Fighting

Unlike for Ghost, Marshadow doesn't benefit from a defensive backbone on Fighting teams, which more often than not results in constant sacking every time it ends up being forced out. Terrakion is definitely among one of Marshadow's most important partners, due to being able to revenge kill Pokemon like Scarf Togekiss, Scarf Staraptor, and Tapu Koko, all of which Marshadow will be very easily forced out by. Cobalion helps Marshadow get past Mimikyu on Ghost, as well as offer vital utility in Stealth Rock, Taunt, and Thunder Wave, as well as acting as a Volt Switch pivot to bring Marshadow in safely. Marshadow greatly compliments it as a fast attacker that appreciates things being slowed down by Thunder Wave, and being a spinblocker in order to keep hazards up in matchups like Fire and Bug. Keldeo can allow Marshadow to break past defensive checks like Mandibuzz, while also checking Belly Drum Azumarill from half with Specs HP Electric. Breloom can offer incredible utility with Spore, as well as being another priority sweeper alongside Marshadow that can help it break past the Water defensive core of Swampert+Toxapex, which Marshadow, as well as Fighting teams in general, have issues with. Those 4 are among some of Marshadow's best partners, but I will still acknowledge Mega Heracross and Scarf Heracross helping Marshadow deal with both Offensive and Balanced Psychic teams.

Let me know what you think about Marshadow's team support and how it influences other types with the team support granted to it by Ghost and Fighting teams. Also let me know if I missed any points or if you have any additional thoughts on Marshadow's team support.​

Acast edit: Fixed your font sizing.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Marshadow the Movie: The Calcs Awaken

Please do not argue with me about whether or not this Pokemon is broken or not. All I'm doing is posting calcs and saying what it says.

I made sure to use only 4 moves: Spectral Thief, Close Combat, Shadow Sneak, Ice Punch, and the nature is Jolly.

Feel free to let me know your opinions on Marshadow after seeing these calcs in the comment section down below.

And make sure to hit that Like button if you enjoyed!
Normal does have a switch in, M-Audino only has a 1% chance of being 2HKO'd by CC after stealth rock. I'm not sure how common Poison Jab is / will be, but it does actually have a higher chance to 2HKO with the poison chance.

Perhaps we will see more of it on Normal teams, especially since Mega-Pid can't revenge kill Marshadow. Offensive Normal might be using Scarf Staraptor even more, but then you have Scarf Marshadow which will be a problem. Normal Offense doesn't seem to have anything good that can combat Scarf Marshadow outside of Max / Max Bewear, and that really isn't ideal.
 
Normal does have a switch in, M-Audino only has a 1% chance of being 2HKO'd by CC after stealth rock. I'm not sure how common Poison Jab is / will be, but it does actually have a higher chance to 2HKO with the poison chance.

Perhaps we will see more of it on Normal teams, especially since Mega-Pid can't revenge kill Marshadow. Offensive Normal might be using Scarf Staraptor even more, but then you have Scarf Marshadow which will be a problem. Normal Offense doesn't seem to have anything good that can combat Scarf Marshadow outside of Max / Max Bewear, and that really isn't ideal.
I used 4 moves so people could not use the argument 'Well it's fine because Marshadow cant use every move'
Limiting it to 4 moves means that any standard set can beat so many teams without even prepping for them specifically.
At this moment in time Audino is not viable enough to be worth my time to add to the calcs but I doubt it will see a rise as Gengar exists on the same team as Marshadow for ghost and Audino is pressured by Pokemon such as Coballion on fighting.
 
I used 4 moves so people could not use the argument 'Well it's fine because Marshadow cant use every move'
Limiting it to 4 moves means that any standard set can beat so many teams without even prepping for them specifically.
At this moment in time Audino is not viable enough to be worth my time to add to the calcs but I doubt it will see a rise as Gengar exists on the same team as Marshadow for ghost and Audino is pressured by Pokemon such as Coballion on fighting.
The Gengar point is fair enough, although Meloetta checks Gengar decently so I don't think it would be a huge issue - it would now have wish support to do better as well. Also Coba is doing like 35% MAX (full attack investement) with Iron Head, so unless it carries something like SD / Z-Move (which is not a thing as far as I know) the worst thing it can do is taunt lol.

Also its a little ironic when you say Mega Audino is not worth your time to clac because its not viable, yet you include Qwilfish, Golbat, and Weezing...
 
Last edited:
The Gengar point is fair enough, although Meloetta checks Gengar decently so I don't think it would be a huge issue - it would now have wish support to do better as well. Also Coballion is doing like 24% (full attack investement) with Iron Head, so unless it carries something like SD / Z-Move (which is not a thing as far as I know) the worst thing it can do is taunt lol.
252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino-Mega: 126-150 (30.7 - 36.5%) -- 61.4% chance to 3HKO
Make sure you calc before saying how much it does. All it needs to do is get it low and taunt, which taunt coballion is commonly used, then it no longer becomes a switch in to any fighting attack. Meloetta can come in on Gengar but Meloetta takes a minimum of 37% meaning it can only come in once before it is no longer a switch in.
 
It's official now: Galladite, Gardevoirite and Lopunnite have been released.

So, Fighting got two new nice toys in just one day, while Normal just got itself a potential check for Marshadow. Gardevoir will be useful for Psychic against Dark, I suppose.

All in all, the metagame is going to be shaken up quite a bit.
Lopunny is only Normal-type, so Fighting got 1 mega.

Mega Gardevoir should be pretty good on Balance Psy, maybe Gallade will get some decent usage on Psy as well to compete with speed tiers.
 
Can you guys please not ban Marshadow (from Ghost at least)? Ghost has always been one of the worst monotypes, and Marshadow is just what Ghost needed. Ghost is my favorite type (tied with Dark) and it's nice to see that Ghost monotype is finally good.

Eien: Moved your post, which was not suitable for SQSA
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Can you guys please not ban Marshadow (from Ghost at least)? Ghost has always been one of the worst monotypes, and Marshadow is just what Ghost needed. Ghost is my favorite type (tied with Dark) and it's nice to see that Ghost monotype is finally good.
There are no type bans on Monotype anymore, which means that if it gets banned, it will be on both types. Furthermore, the decisions revolving around it are not as simple, especially given it was such a recent release. If they make a suspect test, the part of the community who is able to meet the requiriments will have the deciding vote on whether Marshadow will stay or not in the metagame.
 
Can you guys please not ban Marshadow (from Ghost at least)? Ghost has always been one of the worst monotypes, and Marshadow is just what Ghost needed. Ghost is my favorite type (tied with Dark) and it's nice to see that Ghost monotype is finally good.

Eien: Moved your post, which was not suitable for SQSA
Hello,

I can understand your sentiment, seeing as how I'm mostly known for playing Fighting which benefits tremendously from Marshadow. However, a Pokémon should not be banned because a type "needs" it, but rather its banned for being broken by virtue of having little checks on various types. If you don't want it banned, try instead to find a good argument for it.
 
Welp, with Mega Gallade along with Marshadow in the metagame, I can finally call Fighting decent this gen. And to celebrate this occasion, I'd like to share this Fighting team that I've seen quite a lot of success with:


Gallade-Mega @ Galladite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Zen Headbutt
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off

Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide

Keldeo-Resolute @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Scald

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave

Marshadow @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch

Breloom @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Rock Tomb
- Spore


Mega Gallade alongside Marshadow prove to be devastating assets in some of Fighting's toughest matchups this gen in Poison and Psychic respectively. While this build utilizes Banded Marshadow, LO mixed sets can work just as viably. Along with these 2 comes some other staple picks for Fighting teams in Terrakion, Keldeo, and Cobalion, as well as Breloom thanks to its amazing utility. I can definitely see a lot of Fighting builds looking very similar to this. But let me know your thoughts on how Fighting stands now that Marshadow and Mega Gallade have arrived.
 
welp, I've been enjoying trying out new normal and psychic teams with mega garde and lop respectively. I do hope that suspect test for Marshadow comes around soon, cuz both types are pretty much forced to run scarf meloetta just to check it, especially psychic and even then it forces you into either sacking stuff just to revenge kill or predict 50/50s.
 
Last edited:
Alright, so Mega Altaria, Ampharos, Latios, and Latias have been announced as entry gifts for the Weakness Cup, and they'll arrive sometime later in July. I'd like to give my own thoughts on these Megas and how they'll impact the metagame:



Mega Altaria offers incredible natural bulk of 75/110/110 for Dragon teams, as well as a Dragon immunity, which will definitely make a large impact in Dragon mirror matches. Additionally, it also has solid offensive stats and a wide variety of utility ranging from Heal Bell, Tailwind, and reliable sustain in Roost. Its Dragon Dance set works the most effectively in my opinion due to its fantastic natural bulk and reliable sustain, which definitely sets it apart from Dragon's other primary Dragon Dancer in Salamence. Dragon Dance Mega Altaria can prove to be a powerful asset in matchups such as Dark, Fighting, some Balance Water builds, and especially Dragon.

As an example, here's a Dragon build that could utilize Dragon Dance Mega Altaria:


Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Frustration
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Roost

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 92 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock

Latios @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic
- Defog
- Memento

Dragonite @ Choice Band
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Fire Punch
- Superpower
- Extreme Speed

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power

Dragalge @ Black Sludge
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpA / 32 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Toxic Spikes


This Dragon team uses Dragalge's Toxic Spikes support alongside Memento Latios to give Mega Altaria an easier time sweeping and setting up respectively. The Mega Altaria itself can run either an Adamant or Jolly nature, with Adamant giving it some extra power, and Jolly letting it outspeed Tapu Koko and Scarf Tapu Bulu after a single Dragon Dance. However, Mega Altaria could very well benefit from other teammates like Hydreigon, who can break through Balanced Steel pretty easily when holding a Life Orb or Choice Specs, and Latias, who offers tons of helpful utility with Healing Wish, Defog, and Tailwind.



Mega Ampharos will sadly be cast aside this gen, simply due to the fact that, like Electric's only current available mega in Mega Manectric, it has a rough time fitting on the optimal Electric builds this gen, with Tapu Koko, Alolan Raichu, Zapdos, Rotom-Wash, and Alolan Golem being mandatory assets, and Magnezone and Xurkitree fighting for the final teamslot. It has an extremely poor Speed stat, and while this could potentially be helpful for slow Volt Switch pivots, it'll still have a hard time keeping up offensive pressure against opposing offensive teams. As a special wallbreaker, it's just underperforming in comparison to Magnezone, who has a better defensive typing and can hold a Choice Specs to further bolster its Special Attack, and Xurkitree, who despite not having any secondary STAB still has a potent setup move in Tail Glow, and proves to be an effective win condition with Z-Hypnosis. Overall, Mega Ampharos will be struggling to find its place in the metagame.



Mega Latios, just like Mega Ampharos, will struggle to find its place in the metagame. For Dragon teams, not only will it face competition for the megaslot from Mega Altaria and Mega Latias, but you'd also be giving up Dragon's best form of speed control in Scarf Latios. Even if you were to use it for its sheer wallbreaking, Life Orb Latios will still be hitting harder, so in the end the only extra benefit would be the increased bulk, which isn't particularly important for the role it fills. On Psychic teams, some of these issues are amplified. It'll be competing with Mega Alakazam, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Gallade, Mega Slowbro, and Mega Latias for the megaslot, which will make it even harder to fit on certain teams. One somewhat redeemable set for it would probably be a Dragon Dance set with support from potentially Deoxys-Speed on offensive Psychic, but even that is a terribly underwhelming set.



For Mega Latias, I can see its Calm Mind set do incredibly well as a wincon for both Dragon and Psychic teams. While it does face a similar issue to Mega Latios that it'll be facing some megaslot competition on both its types, but Mega Latias will definitely prove to be a more valuable asset. With its phenomenal bulk, Mega Latias has the special bulk that Mega Slowbro lacks as a wincon, while having a helpful Electric resistance to better handle the monster that is Tapu Koko. For Dragon teams, it can serve as an effective wincon that can carry the team through the problematic Normal and Fairy matchups.

As an example, here is a Dragon build that features CM Mega Latias:


Latias-Mega @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 228 HP / 252 Def / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Substitute

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 92 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock

Dragonite @ Choice Band
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Fire Punch
- Superpower
- Extreme Speed

Latios @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic
- Defog
- Trick

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power

Hydreigon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power


This build supports CM Latias with powerful wallbreakers in Dragonite and Kyurem-Black to tear through most Dark types. Hydreigon is also used as a Dark resist and general powerful wallbreaker in the Steel matchup, and Scarf Latios with Trick gives Mega Latias easier setup opportunities. The Mega Latias set runs 28 Speed as a means of outspeeding Jolly Breloom and getting up a Substitute before it can Spore. As with the Dragon build I showed earlier, Mega Latias could very easily function with different teammates such as Dragalge, who can wear down more balanced teams to help Mega Latias beat them easier.

And as another example, I'll share this Psychic build that features CM Mega Latias


Latias-Mega @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 228 HP / 252 Def / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Substitute

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 176 SpD / 80 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- U-turn

Victini @ Choice Band
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Trick

Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 Def
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Counter

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 148 SpD / 108 Spe
Careful Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt / Defog
- Knock Off
- Roost

Meloetta @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- U-turn / Trick


This balanced Psychic build grants Mega Latias with the U-turn momentum from Jirachi, Victini, and Meloetta in order to bring it in safely. Choice Band Victini mitigates the team's issue with Mega Sableye, and it along with Meloetta can use Trick to grant Mega Latias easier setup opportunities. It also gets the support from Sash-Counter Alakazam as a blanket check for Dark types like Mega Sharpedo and Bisharp. Mew can also provide Mega Latias easier setup opportunities with Will-O-Wisp, which helps it better manage physical attackers, as well as Defog to make sure it isn't chipped by Stealth Rock. However, as with the Dragon build, Mega Latias can still benefit from team members outside of these, such as Slowbro, who can also cripple physical attackers with Scald while also generally being a solid switch-in to Mamoswine. Wobbuffet can also serve as a blanket check with Counter and Mirror Coat, while also being able to trap these threats with Shadow Tag.

So overall, those are my thoughts on the newly announced Megas. Let me know if I missed anything, or if you have any specific ideas of your own about how these Megas will influence the metagame when they arrive.

Edit: Forgot to mention the BoltBeam+Defog set for Mega Latias on Psychic. No idea why, since that was one of its best sets in ORAS. Maybe if I do this again, I'll actually try doing it right.

 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)