Metagame SM Monotype Suspect #3: Shadow Tag

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#26
There is just so much wrong with this statement. You compared Shadow Tag with Arena Trap, which is not justifiable at all in Monotype as the users of Arena Trap and the users of Shadow Tag serve drastically different purposes. First of all, Arena Trap does NOT trap “almost as many mons as shadow tag does,” it traps threats that Ground as a type can already beat. Dugtrio’s main purpose comes from its ability to somewhat check Tapu Bulu with Sludge Wave. It is absolutely and in no level as bad as Shadow Tag.
Dugtrio runs a focus sash in monotype, allowing it to use a 200 base power reversal. The combination of earthquake and reversal, sludge wave, and sucker punch, allow it, assuming the sash is intact, to take on:

subcm keldeo, choice specs keldeo, kyurem black, tapu bulu, manaphy, raichu-aloha, choiced locked mamoswine, nihilego (this can be dangerous with grass knot), infernape, etc. The combination of earthquake + sucker punch also takes out LO mamoswine after a small amount of prior damage. Dugtrio also has other options in the form of Toxic, screech, memento, and aerial ace. Dugtrio beats many more threats than "Ground as a type can already beat", and this quite frankly shows you know very little about dugtrio's role (and by extension, arena trap's) in the metagame.

Another mistake in your argument is saying STAG is “most effective vs defensive teams” while completely ignoring Wobbuffet’s role in Monotype as a Pokemon that can trap almost every single choice-locked Pokemon in the game. Defensive teams in Monotype hardly exist. The argument was that it dismantles defensive cores, not anything else. Saying “STAG traps things, and therefore is uncompetitive” is not an argument to be made, it’s just a fact. It falls under uncompetitive in the tier policy (tier policy literally brings up Shadow Tag as an example) so this argument is impossible to win.
Wobbuffet is nowhere near as scary as Goth is. Wobbuffet has problems trapping choiced u turn users, special dark types, stat boosters (can be a problem because many pokemon that are commonly choiced also have the ability to run a boosting move), etc, and has problems switching into the threats it's supposed to trap. Wobbuffet also does not have the ability to dismantle defensive cores. STAG does not dismantle defensive cores, goth does.

As for your point on defensive teams, that was my point entirely: Goth (and by an extension, tag, as goth is tag's best abuser) works best vs stall. Because defensive teams hardly exist in monotype, goth loses its best matchup. The question is if STAG is "noncompetitive" vs offense and balance. This is clearly not "just a fact", as you claim, as the tier leaders have chosen to have a suspect instead of quickbanning it.
How is goth vs steel an unfair portrayal? Once Heatran is trapped, the game is basically over. Victini lacks any switch-ins outside of Heatran and can even live Bisharp’s Sucker Punch.
Did you even watch the only replay posted in the thread? I'll post Anty's match w/ Gothi vs Tran/Steel again because you clearly haven't. Heatran gets trapped TURN 2 and the match is clearly far, far from over as you claim. Obviously steel vs psychic becomes a lot more difficult to play when heatran is eliminated, but to say "the game is basically over" is blatantly false.

Also, with the standard sets, provided by pokemon calculator:

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp (Monotype swords dance (steel)) Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Victini (Monotype choice scarf (Psychic)): 354-421 (103.8 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Of course one can always opt to not use a tini with a -def nature, but even so tini dies more often than not:

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 320-377 (93.8 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Actually trapping it is extremely easy and you’re making it seem unnecessarily difficult. You mentioned it yourself, spamming U-turn with Victini until Heatran comes in is a perfectly viable play to make. Your balloon point is not relevant as Victini’s same u-turn from your previous example will always pop it. Heatran can’t even afford to stay in on specially defensive Jirachi, as it will always live a hit from Heatran and proceed to pivot into Gothitelle who can trap and kill it.
Spamming uturn with Tini is a viable strategy, but it's hardly as risk free as you're making it out to be. For example, if ferrothorn comes in on tini's uturn, tini takes chip damage that makes bisharp's sucker punch kill 100% of the time even with a neutral def nature. If tini uses u-turn vs scizor and scizor doesn't switch, something on the psychic team will have to take a STAB bug bite. If tini uses uturn against skarmory (and skarm does not switch), not only does tini potentially take rocky helmet damage, but skarm also gets to set hazards (SR/spikes/etc) which psychic has problems defogging due to bisharp's defiant ability.

The point of the air balloon was that, if heatran comes in as victini uses a fire STAB move, tini has to switch out (as it's choiced) and heatran gets to fire off a flash-fire boosted magma storm. Then, even if heatran gets a kill that turn, goth can't come in and trap it as heatran will still be holding an air balloon.

This is the best point you manage to make during your entire post, and it’s absolutely true. Not only is Goth a liability after it traps it’s intended target, it’s probably dead or extremely weak. Gothitelle can, however, choose exactly what it wants to trap in this matchup, whether it’s Mantine or Skarmory. This is a very unfair trade in the opponent’s part as the player can simply pick and choose what to trap and identify a wincon they can sweep in later in the game.
Neither Mantine nor skarmory are essential to preserve for balanced flying in this matchup, as mega gardevior is able to break through both rather easily with psyshock and focus blast, and so can lati@s (with tbolt), tini (with bolt strike), alakazam (with psyshock/focus blast), etc. As goth switches in, the flying user defogs/sets up hazards, while after skarm/maintine die, the flying user gains free momentum on a choiced tbolt.

I'm not entirely sure if this trade is good for the psychic user.

Offensive Flying is hardly as common or viable as balanced Flying, so I’m not sure why bring that up.
Offensive Flying is perfectly viable--I remember wincon using it a lot on ladder, and offensive flying has seen a fair amount of tour usage as well. It's not as common as balanced flying, but it's not like shadow tag is particularly common either.

You lost me there. This is not a good set in Monotype. Please lurk a bit more and familiarize yourself with the metagame before posting about Shadow Tag.
The point of bringing up cosmic power sigilith was to highlight the flaws in grass'es team structure; it was more like saying "even something as awful as cosmic power sigilith 6-0s grass". However, since you insist on only naming top-tier threats in the metagame, I'll point out that because grass already stands almost no chance to a well-played victini, shadow tag isn't really necessary here at all:

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock --no switchins

Not to mention megavior, z mew, etc, are all also very scary threats to grass in their own right.

Vs Flying, Gothitelle traps the intended target and removes it. It cannot possibly be considered a liability if you get to erase your target from the match. This would be like saying on Poison teams, Alolan Muk is a liability after it traps and kills something like Alolan Raichu on Electric; the entire point of the mon is to erase that specific threat, and once completed, it can be fodder for the rest of the match and still have pulled its own weight.
I'll repeat myself:
Neither Mantine nor skarmory are essential to preserve for balanced flying in this matchup, as mega gardevior is able to break through both rather easily with psyshock and focus blast, and so can lati@s (with tbolt), tini (with bolt strike), alakazam (with psyshock/focus blast), etc. As goth switches in, the flying user defogs/sets up hazards, while after skarm/maintine die, the flying user gains free momentum on a choiced tbolt.

I'm not entirely sure if this trade is good for the psychic user.

When you say "Goth has to actually trap the threat", it's not exactly hard for Goth to switch into something like Chansey and trick a scarf onto it. Goth isn't going to be trapping mons like CB Heracross locked into Megahorn; the targets it is tailored to trap aren't exactly going to beat it 1v1...
Switching Goth into chansey isn't a risk free play, though. A good normal player will predict the goth switch and double into banded diggersby.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 220-261 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 161-190 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery--even after scouting for return the specially defensive variant still take tons of damage, and is forced to wish/tect to avoid being koed, giving the normal user a free switch

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 161-190 (47.2 - 55.7%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO--scarfrachi can't switch in on return more than once

Goth eliminating Mandibuzz in the Psy vs. Dark matchup is actually huge as it allows physical threats like Victini and Mega-Gallade to have a much easier shot in sweeping,
I'm confused. In what universe is Victini sweeping dark, even with mandibuzz gone?

no team should be losing any MU "90% of the time" unless it's a garbage type like Ice.
This is just not true. Matchups such as fire vs dragon, dragon vs ice, water vs grass, electric vs grass, ghost vs dark, grass vs fire, etc, are nigh-unwinnable between top tier players without some amount of hax (or multiple very, very hard reads). I would be very surprised to top tier players lose something like dark vs ghost even 10% of the time, even if they're facing the best ghost user in the tier.
 
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#27
Dugtrio also has other options in the form of Toxic, screech, memento, and aerial ace. Dugtrio beats many more threats than "Ground as a type can already beat", and this quite frankly shows you know very little about dugtrio's role (and by extension, arena trap's) in the metagame.
lol


Wobbuffet is nowhere near as scary as Goth is. Wobbuffet has problems trapping choiced u turn users, special dark types, stat boosters (can be a problem because many pokemon that are commonly choiced also have the ability to run a boosting move), etc, and has problems switching into the threats it's supposed to trap. Wobbuffet also does not have the ability to dismantle defensive cores. STAG does not dismantle defensive cores, goth does.
literally what is a colbur berry
literally what is encore


As for your point on defensive teams, that was my point entirely: Goth (and by an extension, tag, as goth is tag's best abuser) works best vs stall. Because defensive teams hardly exist in monotype, goth loses its best matchup. The question is if STAG is "noncompetitive" vs offense and balance. This is clearly not "just a fact", as you claim, as the tier leaders have chosen to have a suspect instead of quickbanning it.
this is a fact. it’s being suspect tested BECAUSE it is uncompetitive. there is some uncertainty if the fact that it’s uncompetitive is enough to get it banned.



To keep this from becoming a one-liner, all you really do in the rest of this post is nitpick at extremely irrelevant topics that honestly have nothing to do with Shadow Tag and re-hash the same, obviously flawed arguments as before. You particularly choose to double down on the argument that Arena Trap is on the same dimension as Shadow Tag, except this time you make it sound somehow even more ridiculous. Literally 100% of the Pokemon you mentioned are only checked at full HP, and Ground has lousy forms of hazard removal in choice locked excadrill. You also compare offensive Flying with Shadow Tag Psychic which is just lol.
 
#28
Switching Goth into chansey isn't a risk free play, though. A good normal player will predict the goth switch and double into banded diggersby.
If your solution is to "predict" Goth and not even let Chansey have a turn on the field before switching it out, I think the psychological effect of Shadow Tag has proven itself. This is a poor argument because it can be argued equally that the STAG user is good enough to predict your double switch and now your banded Diggersby is in an unfavorable matchup, all because you were scared of being trapped.

To the rest of your points, I don't think you understand what we are saying regarding this suspect test. It's not that Psychic needs Shadow Tag to beat other types like Flying or Grass, or even that Shadow Tag is an optimal strategy most of the time. It's that Shadow Tag takes agency away from the player and prevents them from switching, which can only be prevented by otherwise useless preventative measures (Shed Shell, including Ghost types like Shedinja on Bug that have zero team synergy, etc.), or random double switches that you wouldn't risk in ANY other scenario.
 
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#29
Hope everyone who is participating in the suspect is enjoying playing and developing their thoughts on STAG.

I'm not going to set myself up for an entire argument or anything, but I want to touch on Anty's mpl replay that has been brought up multiple times in the thread. As far as replays in general, I think they can say a lot about a potentially broken aspect of a meta when they are good and I think this replay hits the principle of why stag is uncompetitive on the head, but I think there has been some discussion about the outcome of the battle and how anty only won because of a flinch etc etc. Focus less on the outcome of the battle and how Anty still should have lost and try to focus more on the principle of STAG. I say focus on the principle more because the principle of STAG carries and carries regardless of meta change. Team compositions are constantly changing and changing, but the presence of STAG has stayed constant throughout the entire SM metagame. Lots of shit can affect the outcome of a game and cloud a potentially broken aspect of a meta. Shining Yin had a fantastic wincon in doublade and always had a fair chance to win that game, but that shouldn't hide the uncompetitive nature of STAG during that battle. The fact that the battle was played in a previous meta should also encourage less focus on the outcome, and more on the principle of how STAG is at work. I don't want to say not to completely disregard whether or not a battle is won because at the end of the day we play to either win or lose, but it certainly does not carry nearly as much weight in a situation like this.

proceed.
 

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#30
The question is if STAG is "noncompetitive" vs offense and balance. This is clearly not "just a fact", as you claim, as the tier leaders have chosen to have a suspect instead of quickbanning it.
The only reason this is a suspect instead of a quickban is that stag didn't come up in the conversation until long after the quickbanning rounds of the new generation. Now that the metagame is well established and relatively stable, the council didn't want to make a decision like this without including the community. I can't express their personal opinions on the subject, but even if they all agreed stag should be banned, they couldn't quickban it without it looking like a corrupt decision.

The fact that stag is being suspected at all is fairly strong evidence that most, if not all of the council thinks there's sufficient reason to ban it.
 
#31
I actually would have tought shadow tag would already be banned for a very long time on monotype, especially since the type matchups make wincons a lot more important: pokemon like lanturn are quite essential for water to beat electric and such so the whole idea of eliminating threats you want by forcing the opponent to stay in disrupts the entire idea of monotype: winning hard matchups with wincons. This also counts for coverage instead of matchup: how fire coverage of victini is very hard for steel to switch into apart from heatran. Shadow tag makes the whole intelligent and interesting part of designing synergy within a monotype framework unexisting / unusable.
 
#32
I see
lol



literally what is a colbur berry
literally what is encore



this is a fact. it’s being suspect tested BECAUSE it is uncompetitive. there is some uncertainty if the fact that it’s uncompetitive is enough to get it banned.
The Argument being made here is that Wobbuffet doesn't inheritantly shut down mons as easily as gothitelle does. Wobbuffet can't setup Calm Minds, Rest off any damage done, Cant trick scarf onto a mon, It can't do anything but check setup mons (ex: the opposing Bisharp used Swords Dance, Wobbuffet uses encore, are you going to stay in?). The main abuser of this ability is Gothitelle.
 
#33
I see


The Argument being made here is that Wobbuffet doesn't inheritantly shut down mons as easily as gothitelle does. Wobbuffet can't setup Calm Minds, Rest off any damage done, Cant trick scarf onto a mon, It can't do anything but check setup mons (ex: the opposing Bisharp used Swords Dance, Wobbuffet uses encore, are you going to stay in?). The main abuser of this ability is Gothitelle.
First of all, Wobbuffet does a lot more than just "check set up sweepers". One of it's best advantages is being able to trap offensive threats (especially choiced mons) and eliminating them with a Counter, Mirror Coat or Destiny Bond. It can also encore utility/set up moves to give goth a free switch-in. The ability to pick a threat, i.e yout opponents wincon, and easily eliminate them is very unhealthy especially in monotype where a specific pokemon could be the only way for the matchup to be winnable.

Yes, Wobbuffet does not do what Gothitelle does and is "not as threatening". However, it is still unhealthy for the meta. While Gothitelle breaks balanced teams, Wobbuffet can cripple offensive teams, make Gothitelles job easier and give its teammates free set-up. This is why STAG is being suspected and not just goth.
 
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