Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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Gary

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Can we not make this meme like an actual regular thing lol. When Scarf Nihilego posted his it was kinda funny but now it's just beating a dead horse at this point and it's not really funny or original lol. Mega Latios will not be getting ranked anyway because it's only niche is being usable on non Mega teams that have like a Soul Dew Latios. AKA, extremely niche and specific.
 

Colonel M

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As far as Omastar and Kabutops, I think Kabutops should definitely be removed, but Omastar can still stick around. Omastar has a small but nice niche for rain teams that isn't half bad. When your safest switch-in is Gastrodon (or Mantine if you lack Ancient Power but why go without that move?) you know something is quite fucked up. Kabutops is so heavily outclassed as a Swift Swimmer and setup sweeper it's kind of absurd. The only perk is Continental Crush and a little more Speed, but most teams would rather use other Z Move users such as Zapdos, Ash-Greninja, Tapu Koko, and said Omastar.

As for other Pokemon that aren't ranked yet:

Mega Latias - B or B+, leaning B+. Mega Latias is a pretty nice addition for SM since it gives a bulky yet agile Pokemon for teams to use. Calm Mind / Stored Power / Thunderbolt / Roost is a great set, and the defensive sets still do alright too. It takes advantage of Celepex and other bulkier trends, though it does admittidely run into issues with Toxic Heatran, Weavile / Tyranitar, and Clefable can be kind of annoying for it. Still really good overall I think, and I think it's got a defined niche in the meta.

Mega Altaria - C+. Honestly I am not convinced that this Pokemon is any good, though I can acknowledge it has some cool defensive niches while being somewhat offensive too. The Pixelate nerf really hurts for this thing's already meh offense potential and it basically demands having Magnezone alongside it. You could argue Mega Pinsir does the same and so does Zard Y with Dugtrio / Tyranitar, but these Pokemon also have far greater returns and benefits than Mega Altaria does in most circumstances. I still think I would rather use Mega Sharpedo in spite of the hate that mon gets.

Mega Diancie - A. Really good mon, just not quite up to A+ as of yet. Celesteela and Magearna are really hard stops for it, and even Mega Venusaur isn't the kindest thing to Mega Diancie either since Giga Drain is going to hit harder due to Naive nature. Lacking Earth Power leaves you extremely vulnerable to Magnezone too - no amount of trying to cheese with Nature Power will help, and Assault Vest can easily stomach a Hidden Power Fire. Outside of those circumstances, Mega Diancie is a really nice offensive Rocker (thank Christ because all we've had so far is Chomp and Lando-T) and can take advantage of Terrain with Nature Power too. Overall, solid Pokemon at the very least that's decent in general but does have some humps that are difficult for it to overcome right away. It has a really awkward time fitting in Earth Power too, but at least Nature Power in Electric Terrain can fry Celesteela. RP / Calm Mind Diancie are really good, and it also been seen with more cheeky sets such as Sub Endeavor - though not as effective as CM or Rock Polish IMO and definitely not as effective as AoA / SR + 3.

(It's been about a week since Diancie's release so this should be safe - if not delete it Gary).

And one more I'm more convinced on after some time:

Mega Scizor - A-. I'm more convinced that Mega Scizor is a lot better in this meta. I think Defog still is the winning set, but bulky Swords Dance is definitely making a comeback. It's still a set that's plagued by a lot of things (Celepex says lol), but it can just shove down hyper offensive's throat so badly that it's still somewhat a noteworthy threat. Even in the lategame it can be really annoying and Mega Venusaur lacking Hidden Power Fire have issues with this Pokemon too. Being a hard wall to Bulu and being a great soft check for Mega Lopunny and Mega Diancie are really hard to pass up on too (the last two are a bit softer, but Mega Scizor can somewhat check . Impish definitely rules the roost in this metagame, though. Mega Latias also isn't the biggest fan since U-turn is going to dent Mega Latias and Mega Latias would need +2 to 2HKO 0 SpD Mega Scizor. Specs Lele being a little rarer at least helps Mega Scizor too, though I always found Mega Scizor to be a so-so Lele check since switching into Hidden Power Fire means Mega Scizor takes a million.
 
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Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
Funny that you mention Mega Scizor as a great soft check to Mega Diancie..
Ever since Diamond Storm got buffed to 50% chance to raise def by +2

0 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Scizor-Mega: 102-120 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- 12.2% chance to 3HKO
msciz switches into diancie, lets assume diancie procs defense buff

0 Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 172-208 (71.3 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
msciz can try to kill, but diancie lives

252 SpA Diancie-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 128 SpD Scizor-Mega: 272-320 (79.3 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
mdiancie kills on counter attack

Doubt there's a spread that msciz can use to live Diamond Storm+Hp fire (unless rain ofc), and even max attack bp doesn't always do the job
252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 228-268 (94.6 - 111.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

This is just a wall of calcs but just want to prove that with the turn of the new generation, msciz is not the nearly foolproof counter to diancie that it used to be :[
Of course this is pretty situational, diamond storm might not buff defense or sciz might be able to switch into a moonblast or earth power, but regardless its something that scizor has to watch out for now.
(Feel free to delete if diancie is still off limits)
 
The point was that 1. Mega scizor isnt super relevant anymore and 2. Diancie will either get killed by their scarfer or other prio after doing such a exchange
Yeah lmao Scizor has just skyrocketed in usage because SD is really good now as it beats the common offense archtypes, most notably Veil. It also has more usage literally because of Diancie lol. Kyuremb is getting better too so thats another reason to use it. Defog Sciz has always been decent.

His post was to highlight that Scizor cannot always revenge kill Diancie. You're post didnt refute that or anything so, like, what was the point of it.
 
Mega Latias - B+
This mon is really good, it has reflect type making it have different counters meaning that consistent stops are harder to find, along with it's amazing bulk and access to recovery make it a very good tank. It is amazing on an offensive side as well with CM stored power. It also has t-bolt to hit Mantine which is one of the most common special walls in the meta, and it can also hit Steela, something that would otherwise stop this mon. It can speed creep a lot of mons with it's high base speed meaning it can beat band Zygarde which is always a huge plus. With AV Magearna running around it can be hard stopped unless it can get up an insane amount of CMs (unless psyshock which to my knowledge is a bad move on CM). Faster mons can kill it, such as Garchomp with Mega Latias not running speed and Zygarde as well. This mon also can only invest in spdef or def meaning it can be hit hard on either side and to my knowledge it runs def but many mons that can hit it hard pre reflect type can stop it from coming in and also when in reflect type it can be forced to switch by stuff it's normal typing would counter. It also has competition from Mew as a bulky psychic meaning that it's defog set is not super amazing, so it's only niche is CM which can be countered by they very common Magearna. Overall it had pros but it's cons stop it from going to the A ranks. That is why I feel it should go to B+
 

Gary

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RANKING UPDATE

Rises
B+ ---> A-
B- ---> B
B- ---> B
C+ ---> B-
C ---> C+
C ---> C+
---> A
---> B+
---> B-


Drops
B+ ---> B
B ---> B-
B ---> B-
B ---> B-
B ---> B-
B- ---> C+
C- ---> Unranked


  • Mega Scizor rose due to the introduction of Mega Diancie into the tier, and how it's such a good check to it. Also, its ability to tear apart a lot of Veil teams is quite useful too.
  • Gastrodon is a very anti meta Pokemon for its ability to switch into the likes of Greninja, Magearna, Tapu Koko, Zapdos, Mega Diancie, and Kingdra. It's very annoying to deal with defensively and while it suffers from being passive, its ability to blanket check top tier threats is very significant and lets it fit onto some teams as glue.
  • Manaphy and Dragonite are both rising for their massive influx in usage on the bird spam team that's been revamped for SM, which utilizes both Tail Glow Manaphy and Z Fly Dragonite, both of which have proven to be big threats.
  • Chandelure has moved up because we felt like C was underselling its niche in the current metagame, and it's actually a pretty decent Pokemon on its own.
  • Ditto has also seen a massive amount of usage in OLT, both on P2's and Sabella's team. It's great for its ability to counter measure a lot of common sweepers/breakers in the tier as well as completely shit on stall.
  • Rotom-W was meaning to drop for a long time and honestly we just kinda forgot about it. Its usage in the metagame has been very rare overall, and it's just not that great in general, especially with the burn nerf, and with Pokemon like Zapdos giving it competition as a fat Electric.
  • Alakazam's niche lies in its Counter set, which is so obvious and much easier to play around than people made it out to be in the beginning. There are far better revenge killers out there, and Zam is just not that great, especially when it doesn't even reliably check Volcarona.
  • Mega Manectric is struggling a lot this generation with the influx in Mega Venusaur, as well as both Tyranitars and stall. Its just not that great in many match ups, literally falling completely flat against all stall builds, most balance builds, and even vs Veil because it just doesn't hit hard enough.
  • Ninetales was literally just risen, but so towards the end of this cycle of OLT, it fell off a lot with the introduction of Mega Diancie, as well as people favoring the gen 7 bird spam team as their HO of choice.
  • Terrakion has a very small niche in the metagame as a Choice Scarfer as well as an offensive SR user, but it faces a lot of competition in both roles, so it's very hard to justify it on most teams.
  • Slowbro just doesn't really fit well at all in this meta. Too many Pokemon can take advantage of it, breakers are running coverage to beat it or muscle through it, T-Spikes are very common, and everyone's fat water of choice is Pex. As a CM Water-type, people would rather use Suicune as well.
  • Kabutops is a Pokemon. Not a good one though.
  • Mega Diancie's impact on the metagame has been quite significant for the first week it has been introduced. It's a very deadly offensive Pokemon with an extremely strong dual STAB combo as well as a broken move in Diamond Storm, which can potentially give it a +2 Def boost and prevent it from being revenge killed by the likes of Scarf Chomp or even BP Mega Scizor. It's a very nice countermeasure to Veil, Webs, and its amazing coverage options make it quite difficult to wall, especially when paired with Tapu Koko. It's also an effective sweeper with Rock Polish, as well as an offensive SR user. While it's still pretty easy to pressure due to its low defensive stats, vulnerability to some priority, and failing to break through certain Pokemon without coverage, it's a very strong pick in the current metagame.
  • Mega Latias is surprisingly effective at being an offensive tank, sweeper, or supporter, much like last gen. Its massive bulk allows it to switch into a plethora of attacks, and its great Speed and coverage lets it run a variety of moves to check different things, such as Ice Beam for Landorus-T/Zygarde, Thunderbolt for Pex, and HP Fire for Ferrothorn or Mega Scizor. CM Stored Power with a coverage move can be a very threatening sweeper that can be very difficult to stop without something strong like CB T-tar or Ash Greninja, and its access to Defog lets it fit onto balance or BO teams in need of a remover.
  • Mega Altaria is just an all around, mediocre Pokemon. It's walled by many of the common Steel-types in the tier because it can't really afford to run Fire Blast on its DD sets, it's not strong or fast enough to really break anything early game, and it already faces a ton of competition for a mega slot on top of all of that. It's much like last gen, where it has the ability to completely destroy unprepared teams, but most of the time, it just doesn't accomplish much.
Protean Gren A+ to S: Literally everyone said no so you can stop asking for it to be S
Ash Gren A+ to S: Still very split
Mega Scizor B+ to A-: All yes
Bisharp B+ to B: Mostly everyone disagreed
Regular Zam B to B-: All agreed
Manaphy B- to B: All agreed
Dragonite C+ to B-: All agreed or didn't care
Terrakion B to B-: All agreed except one
Rotom-W: B+ to B: All agreed
Gastrodon B- to B: Mostly everyone agreed except for two
Ninetales Alola B to B-: Most agreed or didn't care
Mega Manectric B to B-: Mostly all agreed except one
Mega Aerodactyl C+ to B-: Mostly all disagreed due to Diancie
Slowbro B- to C+: All agreed
Ditto C to C+: All agreed
Infernape C+ to B-: Mostly disagreed
Chandelure C to C+: Mostly all agreed
Kabutops C- to Unranked: Mostly all agreed
Mega Latias Initial Ranking: B/B+ was basically 50/50
Mega Altaria Initial Ranking: Some wanted C+ most wanted B- initially
Mega Diancie Initial Ranking: All A one A+


Discussion Slate

Initial ranking thoughts
A ---> A+
A+ ---> A
A ---> A-
B ---> B-

Don't make me blacklist Greninja please.
 
I woukd actually like to lower altaria myself. I have been trying in every single way possible to get it to set up sweep, which it struggles to do even late game, as well s. Not being strong enough to beat anything without a boost and not fast enough to revenge k8ll the things it does threaten, such as ash gren and tapu koko. While it usually can get at least 1 dd off, mega scizor is a huge problem 4 him, as well as being weak 2 steels and fairies, both of wgich are insanely common in the current meta, and mons like celesteela hard wall it. Thats all i have 2 say 4 now, unless u would like some replays or such showing its ineffectiveness
 
For Mega Altaria, is the "not strong enough to break anything early game" claim a valid reason for it to be ranked there because not all Pokémon are used for early game. Some are late game Pokémon
 
Sounds like to me the problem is that you are trying to use it as a sweeper. The main merit to using Altaria is having a strong defensive presence without being too passive, so I think the special set with Fire Blast and Roost works a lot better in this metagame than the mediocre DD set, (which should be used primarily as a cleaner anyway.)
 
Kabutops, on the other hand, is a beyblade. Unrank that shit.
Also unrank both Omastar and Kabutops cause they're both bakugans
Kabutops is a Pokemon. Not a good one though.
Lol

Koko to A+:

Z-Wild Charge has pushed it over the edge, imo. Prior to its discovery, Koko had some solid, reliable stops, such as AV Tang/Gearna and Chansey. Now, there are very few things that aren't hit hard by at least one of the moves it commonly runs, and none of them are in the A ranks. Even Mega Venu gets 2HKOed by Brave Bird.

The recent introduction of Mega Diancie has given it yet another fantastic partner with which to work: Diancie loves ET Nature Power to blast through the CelePex core it now has to deal with, not to mention it just generally gives it a way to muscle through otherwise troublesome bulky waters.

Besides that, the many slow, powerful wallbreakers like CharY, Mega Camel, and Bulu being good especially right now is very good for Koko, as it gets its own in safely and either beats or u turns out on opposing ones.

The effects Koko has had on the meta are undeniable and make it worthy of A+ atm, especially since it's only getting better currently
 

I agree with mega altaria in B-, (speaking for the DD set, i dont have enough experience with the special set for me to say much about it) although I honestly wouldn't mind if it dropped to C+. This was one of my favorite mons to use back in ORAS, so I obviously rushed to test it after it was released. I believe it does have a niche in OU for its ability to set up in the face of very prevalent mons and threaten them like koko, tangrowth (yes they both run hp ice but 0 SpA Tangrowth Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Altaria-Mega: 90-108 (30.9 - 37.1%) -- 72.9% chance to 3HKO and 252 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Altaria-Mega: 102-122 (35 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO) and zygarde w/o iron tail, zapdos (has to be careful of paras if its not the refresh set), and latio(a)s. Its bulk and amazing typing also allows it to sponge hits from common, relevant mons like ash gren, keldeo if necessary and can threaten out many more like tyranitar (mega or not), bisharp, heracross-mega and lopunny with a STAB pixlate boosted return/double edge (i personally don't like double edge. the fact that it is pressured constantly throughout the game means that it doesn't appreciate recoil from double edge at all). it can also threaten the duggy/zard y core running around as it can act as an emergency zard y check and also has the merit of not prone to being revenge killed by duggy.

that being said, why am i not advocating this thing to rise, if it has so many positives? Well for one, its speed tier is atrocious, even after a boost it fails to outspeed important mons like scarf lele and scarf protean gren (and to a lesser extent, nheligo, but i havent seen that thing in a while), (i dont think outspeeding koko or ash is too relevant tbh cuz it can boost on them...) and is usually forced out by these mons. In addition, the presence of celesteela, scizor and skarmory stop the DD set cold, as it can hardly afford to run fire blast and unfort altaria teams usually need to run zone to eliminate these mons- if skarm/celesteela are alive, altaria usually sits there in the back and doesn't do anything. finally, the pixilate nerf also sucks, because now it can't 2HKO unaware clef like it used to.

last gen:
252 Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(that was the clef set that was relevant last gen)

This gen:
252 Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Clefable: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

TLDR:
- Altaria has a strong niche in the OU tier for it to be ranked bc it can set up in front of some common pokemon and threaten things like veil (sets up in front of zygarde and threatens it and kills the other mons as it resists sucker from mawile)
- its typing also allows it to threaten and sponge hits from some other common pokemon like ash gren, keldeo, latios etc.
- the prevalence of celesteela and scizor stops the DD set cold
- its speed is bad this gen and some faster scarfers able to revenge kill it even at +1
- i advocate its ranking in B- or lower to C+, although im not personally nominating it to be lower.

just one last quick opinion:
Keldeo ==> A-: agree. the rising usage of fat pex/steela/clef/venu cores doesn't help this mon at all, and the fact that mantine has been seeing some usage is kinda bad for it too (hp electric means u drop stoneedge for volc), and i believe it should drop.

for the other noms i dont have anything much to say, i dont feel strongly about any of them.
 
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Koko to A+: Completely agree. Honestly the best pivot in the meta, and can do so much so well. It can run pretty-well any (viable) item and plays a large role in any matchup, be it by pivoting, outspeeding and revenge killing, stall breaking with taunt, and nuking with a physical or special set. Excellent mon, easily on the level of the rest of the A+.

Bulu to A: Mostly impartial, leaning towards slightly agreeing. This mon deserved to get to A+, and not that many major changes in the meta have happened to make it shift back down. However, it has died down in usage a bit, and the rise of scizor isnt helping at all.

Keldeo to A-: Strongly Disagree. It seems that the majority of people still only really think about keldeo as a choice user, and want to derank because of that. Volcorona has died down in usage, so honestly if scarf was the only set then the derank would be pretty worthy. However, the calm mind taunt set is incredible right now. It absolutely dismantles stall with Z-Hydro, and 1v1s pex, tangrowth, and celesteela, all of which were listed by some above as checks.

M-Slowbro to B-: Completely agree, not a good meta call right now for all the same reasons slowbro just got deranked.
 
Keldeo to A-: Strongly Disagree. It seems that the majority of people still only really think about keldeo as a choice user, and want to derank because of that. Volcorona has died down in usage, so honestly if scarf was the only set then the derank would be pretty worthy. However, the calm mind taunt set is incredible right now. It absolutely dismantles stall with Z-Hydro, and 1v1s pex, tangrowth, and celesteela, all of which were listed by some above as checks.
In addition, it is one of the Choice Scarf users that can OHKO Mega Diancie with ease, something that will be HUGE from now on. I also disagree with its drop.
 
Bulu: Stay A+
As wisdom dog stated, nothing major has occurred to warrant Bulu dropping. It still is one of the best answers to Ground-types such as Dugtrio, Zygarde, and Lando-T, being able to comfortably 1v1 them all (apart from Z-Fly Lando-T). Grassy Terrain also benefits Pokemon weak to Ground moves, of which there are plenty. Bulu also pairs quite well with Mega Diancie, another big threat atm. It still has two viable sets, SD + Z-Move and CBand. The Fightinium Z set in particular hits many of the bulky Steel-types hard, even if it's only neutral.
+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Superpower vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Scizor-Mega: 179-211 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 278-328 (69.8 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 255-300 (84.7 - 99.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 384-454 (109 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 546-644 (169 - 199.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Scizor-Mega: 283-333 (82.5 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 441-519 (110.8 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Overall, it's still a big threat imo and doesn't warrant a drop anytime soon.

Koko: Move to A+
This thing is just so versatile, and along with Bulu is one of the better Tapus atm. It also pairs well with Mega Diancie, since Electric Terrain gives it Thunderbolt using Nature Power. Really no reason to keep it in A.

Keldeo: Move to A- (maybe)
Scarf is definitely dropping in viability, and idk if CM Taunt is enough to keep it in A. I haven't seen that set tho, so I could be wrong about how good it is.

Mega Slowbro: Move to B-
Just use Toxapex lol

Srsly tho, it's not that great rn. There are plenty of other (better) Physically defensive mons and plenty of other (better) bulky Waters, neither of which take up a mega slot.
 
In addition, it is one of the Choice Scarf users that can OHKO Mega Diancie with ease, something that will be HUGE from now on. I also disagree with its drop.
Thats not huge tbh, diancie is really frail so even thats not a big accomplishment since every almost every relevant scarfer can ohko diancie

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Diancie-Mega: 408-484 (169.2 - 200.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Diancie-Mega: 198-240 (82.1 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 302-356 (125.3 - 147.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Diancie-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 229-270 (95 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 496-588 (205.8 - 243.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 206-244 (85.4 - 101.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Yea u get the point basically

Its just not as good as it was and with the rise of mega latias and mega venusaur balance which stop it cold is not good for it, its not a bad mon by any means but its definitely not on the level of the other A rank mons like diancie and zard y i feel
Keldeo A -> A-
 
regarding the new megas: for the time being a seems like an appropriate ranking for diancie, but i wouldn't object to it being a+. it's far and away the best mega in the tier and its versatility is incredible. a pinsir check that isn't either koko or passive dong is also p nice. it's certainly the newest addition that's had the largest amount of success and impact which is a good indication of it doing shit right. mlati is dope, cm / stored power / attack being the most effective set in my experience, eating a lot of balances that are common apart. so many times in testing with it, it's turned a lost game into an easy win because my opponent either just hasn't had the means to outright kill it, or just crumbles to it in the lategame. i'm fine with b+ but it's certainly something to keep an eye on in the coming weeks for a potential raise. malt is fucking trash lol.

koko should definitely rise, and warrant no real explanation. if you've paid any attention to the last 2 olt cycles, or even its performance in the intermittent period between wcop and olt you'll understand why. firmly cemented itself as the premier offensive pivot in the tier and is yet to be adequately adapted to by many common team archetypes.

i'm split on bulu. on one hand, the rise of venu, a significant drop in usage of cb zygarde, the influx of msciz usage and the seemingly low amount of successful teams featuring bulu are indicative of it not being as good as it was a few weeks ago. one the other, though, i still find myself looking at a lineup of 5 pokemon in builder and thinking "ok, bulu will do there". it still brings mad utility and compression to the table as a secondary water- and ground-type resist, a tool vs fat and mad support for the team via grassy terrain. been toying around with z-fight 3 atks (leech/spower/zen)+spikes to help alleviate the surge of popularity that venu and sciz have seen, and sub life orb 2 atks, which is a fucking savage set in so many matchups as listed by blunder's post here in which you can read a little more about it (you can also take advantage of bulky offence featuring defensive lando which is seeing another comeback by eving so that u-turn doesn't break the sub with ~50 evs, whilst still outspeeding timid mage, fwiw). i'd hold off on a drop and see how well it copes in the coming cycle of olt, for the time being.

idrc about keld, but the most noteworthy thing about it regarding viability is that its defensive utility (see offensive gren check) has waned significantly in value with recent meta shifts, and i barely find myself ever wanting to use it as of late.

-----------------
couple of things that, given the recent meta shifts i feel are being oversold in the op/are worthy of discussion:

unless volcarona sees a spike in usage and effectiveness (btw please only use z-psy in this meta), then it needs to drop. might see some sort of comeback in the later stages of this cycle or the next cycle of olt with the amount of people either neglecting it in builder or running shaky as fuck answers to it, and 100+ scarfers dropping in usage, but it just doesn't seem threatening or relevant enough to share a rank with the likes of agren, tran, and pex. zardy should drop, people adapted to its destructive presence with shed pex/packing at least 2 decent checks to it on all teams. it's far less effective in so many matchups as it was late-wcop and the ensuing couple of weeks.
 
I have questions: why did you unranked Kabutops and why does people want to unrank Omastar?
I dont want to derail the chat but Im sure they arent irrelevant since they can use a Z crystal+a set up move...
 
I have questions: why did you unranked Kabutops and why does people want to unrank Omastar?
I dont want to derail the chat but Im sure they arent irrelevant since they can use a Z crystal+a set up move...
A while ago (during oras) its been decided that not every mon that isnt completely outclassed should be ranked. The decision was probably made to prevent arguments such as "jolteon is not completely outclassed by raikou because it can outspeed talonflame" and it was noted that a good player will know when the use of those unranked super niche mons is necessary and when it is not. "The vr are more of an indicator to newer players and selling stuff like jolteon as viable can be confusing."

That being said, while Kabutops has niches over Mega-Swampert, the electric immunity, bulk and consistancy of Mega-Swampert is better than everything Kabutops has to offer 97% of the time so it got unranked. Omastar on the other side has a lot of benefits over kingdra such as shell smash and the added power so its staying (for now).

TL;DR : Kabutops and Omastar should stay C- forever, unless:
1.- Rain just stops being a viable playstyle completely
2.- Some drastic metagame trend occurs that makes either Omastar and Kabutops good enough to be raised to a higher rank
3.- Swampert gets access to SD, Kingdra to Shell Smash and A-Ninetales gets deleted from the data of the game

I seriously don't get the logic of "A Pokémon X that is 5+ ranks above Y can use its teamslot more consistently, thus, Y is completely unviable, despite having an usable niche over X". If that was a valid argument, a big chunk of C and B rank should be unranked
Your logic is following the old viability ranking logic. Nowadays a niche doesnt warrant you a spot on them, it is for the vr member to decide if the niche is good/consistent/whatever enough for it to be ranked which is an arbitrary decision but still better than having to rank every single garbage because nobody else can outspeed magikarp while simultaneously not being weak to pikachu.
 
Infernape is better than half of the shit at B- LOL. It has far more of a defined niche and since gen 6 (I mean gen 4 Infernape was the same but he was the meta) it's been true that even mixed sets are extremely potent and underprepared for.

Anyways, tired of hearing the argument that CM Keldeo is enough for it to stay at A when it's extremely unsplashable and makes Keldeo so bleh vs offense. Keldeo's main niche is that it's an offensive Gren check otherwise Keldeo would be much worse lmao stop saying it's as meta relevant and defining as Char Y, Heatran, Koko, etc..
 

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volcarona a+ to a

volc is still a good mon but things have changed to make it not a+ material. mega latias release as well as ttar's popularity means that it's kind of forced to run both stabs (volc without fire stab is no set) and it needs to choose between heatran/toxapex, fini/diancie, and zyg/chomp for its last slot. you can use the "it can be tailored to fit your team's needs" argument all you want but man you can't guarantee that chomp will be out of the way just because you have hp ice zard y or something

additionally, volc has a much harder time killing offense now than it used to. against webs it can threaten bisharp and prevent celesteela from setting up, but webs have largely been replaced by veil as the dominant offense style. volc fails to break veil sweepers without multiple boosts and falls to mawile's sucker punch with only a bit of prior damage (252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 205-242 (65.9 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). additionally, it needs hp ice to break zyg, otherwise it just gets set up on and dies to karrows + speed.

its balance matchup is getting weaker too, toxapex is really good rn and that just gives your opponent free toxic spikes unless you're psychium z (which is prediction reliant). it's not like you can just slap dug on your team and call it good either, most toxapex opt for shed shell nowadays so there's no way to reliably get around it.

yeah volc still sweeps in the current meta but i think that too many things have gotten worse for it so it should move down to a. thank you.
 
I dont really care if Keldeo drops, rises or stays A but what I want to drop are some replays to show that it is pretty splashable and usable against many archetypes (two examples down below). I used both CM Taunt with Leftovers+Scald and the offensive Z-Hydro Pump variant

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-617878303 ABR-Stall, easy Matchup
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-612631967 What a surprise, even Scarfless Keldeo checks Greninja and Taunt prevented Steela from being annoying

edit: I think that A is definitely fine for Keldeo rn
 
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volcarona a+ to a

volc is still a good mon but things have changed to make it not a+ material. mega latias release as well as ttar's popularity means that it's kind of forced to run both stabs (volc without fire stab is no set) and it needs to choose between heatran/toxapex, fini/diancie, and zyg/chomp for its last slot. you can use the "it can be tailored to fit your team's needs" argument all you want but man you can't guarantee that chomp will be out of the way just because you have hp ice zard y or something

additionally, volc has a much harder time killing offense now than it used to. against webs it can threaten bisharp and prevent celesteela from setting up, but webs have largely been replaced by veil as the dominant offense style. volc fails to break veil sweepers without multiple boosts and falls to mawile's sucker punch with only a bit of prior damage (252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 205-242 (65.9 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). additionally, it needs hp ice to break zyg, otherwise it just gets set up on and dies to karrows + speed.

its balance matchup is getting weaker too, toxapex is really good rn and that just gives your opponent free toxic spikes unless you're psychium z (which is prediction reliant). it's not like you can just slap dug on your team and call it good either, most toxapex opt for shed shell nowadays so there's no way to reliably get around it.

yeah volc still sweeps in the current meta but i think that too many things have gotten worse for it so it should move down to a. thank you.
Volcorona is a sweeper. Unless you're in a shit position, you shouldn't be using Volcorona unless you can guarantee win from a setup. Yeah Volcorona is gonna die to Mawiles sucker punch but would you be setting up with it if something can still threaten you.
Your Toxapex point doesn't really weaken Volcorona. You're not going to stay in on Volcorona anyway in fear of psychium z so no toxic spikes. Also no competent person uses zard y as their garchomp counter/check.

Also, teams are usually tailored around Volcorona, not Volcorona being tailored around them.
 
Volcorona is a sweeper. Unless you're in a shit position, you shouldn't be using Volcorona unless you can guarantee win from a setup. Yeah Volcorona is gonna die to Mawiles sucker punch but would you be setting up with it if something can still threaten you.
Your Toxapex point doesn't really weaken Volcorona. You're not going to stay in on Volcorona anyway in fear of psychium z so no toxic spikes. Also no competent person uses zard y as their garchomp counter/check.

Also, teams are usually tailored around Volcorona, not Volcorona being tailored around them.
The thing is, yeah Volcarona can be a monster. The point is that too much has to go right for it. Volc is almost never played under ideal conditions. This is mainly because many of the mons that check it are staples to many different play styles. And with the introduction of the new megas, all of which are at least serviceable, there's more that stops it now. It's hard to have the right coverage/be in the ideal position to fulfill its role. Not to mention it's a very restricting mon.
Not saying I agree with a drop though, Scizor being on more teams is nice for it but diancie and veil hurt.
 
Tapu Koko, A --> A+: Strongly Agree

Oh my goodness, all of my yes to Koko rising. If it wasn't worthy of a rise with the advent of Mega Camerupt or the increased popularity of Gigavolt Havoc giving it yet another amazing tool to work with it's worthy of a rise now that Diancie exists and appreciates its ability to make Nature Power awesome (it beats Celesteela a lot more reliably, hits Pex significantly harder, etc.). Koko is amazing on its own and provides a lot of stuff, including good Megas, invaluable support in multiple areas.
 
A --> A+: Agree

The physical set with Electrium-Z + HP Ice is great. It is quite prediction reliant and you can get punished if you predict wrong like wasting your z-move and getting forced out by the opposing ground type as HP Ice doesnt kill from full, however, it can compensate for that by pivoting around with u-turn and gaining momentum that way. It also has a good matchup against every single playstyle as it is a fast breaker and the rise should be based on this set, although specs is quite impressive as well.

I am now convinced that Tapu Koko is as good / better than Volcarona, Mew and Tapu Bulu.

A --> A-: Disagree

By virtue of its typing Keldeo is able to beat Steel and Ground types which is a blessing for any Pokemon competing in the OU tier. Its the only great non-mega fighting type and offers a bunch of unique resistances most notably a great dark resist.

Scarf is indeed a bit worse than before as Volcarona, Salamence, Mega-Charizard X and regular Gyarados declined in usage quite a lot since SM release and it doesnt revenge Magearna from full like Infernape (but most scarfers dont thats why SG Magearna is so good).

Calm Mind + Taunt Hydro Vortex, however, can roll over a good amount of teams and it just gives u a very solid Pokemon on your team with a bunch of offensive presence as well as defensive utility that has good matchups all-around. Specs accomplishes the same thing, tho it is a bit more matchup dependent.

Overall, Keldeo is solid enough to stay in A next to Pokemon such as Tangrowth, Latios and Clefable.
 
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