Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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Gary

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Magneton to Unranked


The only argument I see for Magneton to be ranked is that scarf sets out speed greninja and stuff. If we apply this logic to other pokemon, I can say that I can use scarf magmar over Specs Magmortor in Neverused so I can out speed Tauros and Archeops. While this is true (as scarf magmortor is bad, it has to run specs or AV), Magmortor has much better bulk and special attack allowing it to do its job a lot better then magmar can. Another point I want to make is that with the introduction of Mega Mawile, Magneton's life has just gotten even more outclassed.

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 255-301 (81.4 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magneton: 300-353 (124.4 - 146.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile-Mega: 252-297 (82.8 - 97.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile-Mega: 144-171 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

Magneton is just bad.
Yeah except you are completely missing the point of why Magneton is ranked in the first place. It's a faster, weaker Magnezone that trades the ability to hit hard and bulk in order to outspeed Pokemon above the 115+ Speed tier that Scarf Zone misses out on because it's so god damn slow. It can still trap Steels such as Ferrothorn, Scizor, Skarmory, and Celesteela to an extent, so if you are very weak to Greninja but also need some form of Speed control as well as a Steel trapper, Magneton has got that niche covered. Every Pokemon you compared to Magneton is irrelevant in this case.

It's a niche as fuck Pokemon but that doesn't mean it should be compared to completely irrelevant Scarfers when it can still accomplish its task as a fast steel trapper.
 
I don't know how I feel about mega luvdisc moving into B. It's hard to fit it on any team archetype besides stall/semi-stall because it's so passive. It can threaten status with scald and toxic, but so can every other fat water wall. It can knock off items, but tbh knock off isn't as powerful as it was last gen because most teams carry both a mega and a z-move, which means most teams have multiple switchins. This meta's attackers are too strong that alomomola gets easily overwhelmed outside of stall teams/regen cores that can support it. I think clefable may even be a better wish passer cause it has more defensive utility and although it's HP is far lower, most of the things you'd pass to outside of stall don't have massive HP stats so it is sufficient.

Slowbro I don't think is the best comparison, cause it has instant recovery, regenerator, can get reasonable chip with its SpAtk, gets thunder wave for more utility, and can be run as a wincon with calm mind. It's mega, which sits in B-, can do the same, but swap regenerator for a massive defense stat and a good SpAtk.
Gastro, also in B-, has 2 immunities, a lot of the other same characteristics, and can also function as a wincon with curse.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 36 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 253-298 (52.7 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Hidden power electric, if it were to run it, is also a 2HKO. Hydro needs some chip for the 2HKO. Idk that I'd call that a counter. I'll give you 'check,' because if it switches into shuriken it can force ninja out, and if it switches into hydro from full it can wish-tect stall out the 8pp.

It's only niche over toxapex or bro is wish passing, which isn't a very effective strategy in this very offensive meta (again, outside of stall/semi-stall), I think C+ represents that viability just fine, because it has only one set that works on only specific teams. It would feel out of place to me among the likes of Dragonite, zong, loom, mega gyara, all of which offer more than one specific utility and can find their place on a variety of teams. And it's defensive utility certainly doesn't exceed that of it's fellow C+ inhabitants, Hippo, Quagsire, and AMuk.
Role compression is the name of the game with defensive and utility mons in SM, and alo doesn't compress any roles.
No offense but after reading this I highly doubt you ever properly used Alo because most of this is just not true.
Alo can fit on more than stall and semi-stall, I actually used it on a balanced team and got reqs with it for the Dugtrio suspect. I'd even argue it's better on balanced teams because balance has way more mons that appreciate Wish support while the vast majority of mons of stall teams have recovery of their own, which is why stall is better off running Toxapex. However, Pokemon like Zygarde, Tapu Bulu, Heatran, Magearna, Ferrothorn or Lando-T are all great fits for balanced teams in this meta, have good synergy with Alo and really appreciate Wish support, so I don't see how Wish passing is not a very effective strategy in this meta.

Alo itself may be passive but thanks to Wish + Regenerator it actually maintains momentum pretty well. You can send it in on something that can't do much to Alo and then click Wish the following turn as the opposing mon is forced out and thanks to the Wish you get a risk-free switch into your answer to the opposing switch-in while Alo recovers all the damage thanks to Regen. This is why Clefable is not anywhere near as good as a Wish passer, it needs the Wish to stay healthy itself on top of not being as bulky as Alo is.

Your calcs about Greninja were already adressed above, so I'm not going into that again but I just want to make clear that Alo is indeed a counter to Greninja and that's the main niche it has over mons like Toxapex and Slowbro aside from Wish-passing. Having a full-on counter to Gren is definetely valuable for balanced teams, it saves you the trouble of scouting its coverage and gets rid of the risk of Gren having just the right coverage to destroy your defensive core.

I personally would be in favour of Alo rising to B- because there is no other mon that can fill the niche of countering Gren and Wish passer like it does. It's also a solid check to Scarf Phero and Mega Metagross lacking Thunder Punch and dealing with this amount of (or at least variants of) top metagame threats should be reflected within its ranking and B- seems more appropriate for that than C+.

I also have some replays saved that showcase how well Alo can do so this isn't just theorymons:
 
Okay so the Amoonguss discussion has already ran its course so there's literally no reason to bring up the same points and try to drop it again unless you have more relevant support instead of just comparing it to Pex/Growth/Mega Venu as its primary reason for dropping. Pex and Growth are both a rank above it and Venu takes up a Mega slot while being a lot less durable overall, so it's not really giving Amoonguss much competition. It's a great pivot that fits on plenty of teams as a great middle ground between Pex and Tangrowth when you need the role compression of both but can't really afford to run them at the same time. It has great utility in Spore/Stun Spore as well as Clear Smog so much like Pex it's not like much can set up on it, and most of the Steel-types that attempt to are pressured by HP Fire (Scizor). There just isn't much solid logic other than that it faces competition as a Grass and as a Poison-type, but the VR clearly presents that by putting Amoonguss below those two, and showing that it can still performs similar defensive roles as the two compressed into one mon which is very valuable for many builds.

So we can move on now right?
I looked through the last 15-20 pages, and there's barely been any discussion on it. I've seen multiple people nominate it for B+, and haven't seen a reply to them until the above conversation. The person who posted immediately prior to me had a poor argument and admitted as much, but I thought the idea itself had merit so I picked it up. I have a lot of relevant calcs at hand to show that it's just not as strong in this current meta, mainly ones that show it can't switch into any of the S/A+ mons, which is a pretty huge deal for a defensive pivot. Meanwhile, Toxapex and Tangrowth, the other main defensive pivots in the meta, each cover at least one S mon and multiple A+ mons. Sure, they're a rank above it, but the point is that unless you need a very specific spot on your team, you're better off with Tang or Toxapex.

I think it's better off with mons in the B+ rank, where most are still very good at what they do, they're just specialized and only do that one thing (e.g. Nihilego, Terrakion, Bisharp, Chansey, Manaphy).
 

Gary

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That's because I deleted a large majority of the Amoonguss discussion. It was running around in circles and no one was getting anywhere, the arguments that were being used for it to drop just weren't relevant at all. I've given my thoughts on Amoonguss and why I personally think it should stay A- so that's as much as I can do. If you want to continue talking about this then you should at least have better evidence to back it up than just calcs or saying it should drop solely on the fact that Pex/Growth exist. Calcs are good for supporting strong arguments but oftentimes people just don't know how to incorporate them properly, for example saying that Amoonguss can't switch into Ash Gren when any player shouldn't be allowing Gren to get a kill when they still have an Amoonguss to switch into it easily before Battle Bond.
 
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That's because I deleted a large majority of the Amoonguss discussion. It was running around in circles and no one was getting anywhere, the arguments that were being used for it to drop just weren't relevant at all. I've given my thoughts on Amoonguss and why I personally think it should stay A- so that's as much as I can do. If you want to continue talking about this then you should at least have better evidence to back it up than just calcs or saying it should drop solely on the fact that Pex/Growth exist. Calcs are good for supporting strong arguments but oftentimes people just don't know how to incorporate them properly, for example saying that Amoonguss can't switch into Ash Gren when any player shouldn't be allowing Gren to get a kill when they still have an Amoonguss to switch into it easily before Battle Bond.
Fair enough; you're the expert, and I didn't realize the discussion was mostly deleted. My bad.

So this isn't a useless post: I'd like to nominate Charizard-Y A- -> A

Many teams have almost nothing to switch into Charizard Y. Its Fire Blasts are the most powerful Special Attack (bar stat boosts) in the tier due to Drought. Out of the A, A+, and S tiers, it one shots 14/20 pokemon with fire blast (counting dug, tho focus sash exists ofc), while it one shots 3 others with solar beam. Garchomp gets two shotted by fire blast or solar beam. The only reliable switch ins in these tiers are SubCoil zygarde and toxapex, and since zygarde has no reliable recovery it can't switch in over and over again either. In A-, it one shots every pokemon except itself, CharX, Heatran, MegaVenu, MegaSableye, and Fini. Fini it 2HKOs with Solar Beam (or even 1 solar beam and 1 fire blast), Venu and Sableye it 2HKOs with fire blast, heatran it can one shot with focus blast if no bulk, 2 shot otherwise, and char x is also 2 shotted with focus blast.

The point is that in this meta, the only good switch-ins Charizard Y has are chansey and toxapex (and nihilego if you're into that). It tears holes through any team it faces, pretty much, and has plenty of opportunities to come in, due to its typing (1 immunity, 2 4x resistances, a steel and fairy resistance, and others). In addition, all 3 primary mons that can switch into Charizard Y are prime targets for Dugtrio trapping, which means they make a great pair (add dug's electric immunity to that as well).

It hits ridiculously hard; 1HKOing the majority of the tier is nothing to scoff at, and 2HKOing most of the others is even better. What's not to like?

Well, there's a couple things. Stealth rock is a huge deal, especially with the most reliable defogger being fini, which is extremely predictable. And it also takes up the mega slot, which in this meta is also a big deal. However, it still has a hugely powerful attack, a decent speed tier and SpD to back it up, and a decent defensive typing (bar rocks). In terms of A-tier pokemon, I compare it to Volcarona. It's the wallbreaker to Volcarona's sweeper, trading out sweeping potential (though loltailwind could do work) for immediate and overwhelming power. However, both require rocks removal to hope to function (CharY at full health can take several notable attacks such as MMawile's sucker punch, lele's psychic, all of Greninja's attacks - bar Specs A-Gren's Hydro which it has a 63% chance of surviving -, and Gengar's shadow ball; CharY at half health can't take any of those), and both are walled by Chansey/Toxapex (+1 HP Ground admittedly has a good chance to 2HKO but haze exists and scald hurts).

I definitely think it's as good as stuff like Garchomp, Volcarona, M-Scizor, and Magearna. The only calcs I'll show are these:

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 108-127 (44.2 - 52%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle in Sun: 121-144 (49.5 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

(Shuckle was made normal type for these calcs and was chosen for having the highest defense and special defense stats and for them being equal)

Its Fire Blast is more powerful than MMawile's Play Rough. Yes, it requires hazard removal, and yes, it takes up the mega slot, but that's a small price to pay for the sheer wallbreaking potential it has.
 

Leo

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Fair enough; you're the expert, and I didn't realize the discussion was mostly deleted. My bad.

So this isn't a useless post: I'd like to nominate Charizard-Y A- -> A

Many teams have almost nothing to switch into Charizard Y. Its Fire Blasts are the most powerful Special Attack (bar stat boosts) in the tier due to Drought. Out of the A, A+, and S tiers, it one shots 14/20 pokemon with fire blast (counting dug, tho focus sash exists ofc), while it one shots 3 others with solar beam. Garchomp gets two shotted by fire blast or solar beam. The only reliable switch ins in these tiers are SubCoil zygarde and toxapex, and since zygarde has no reliable recovery it can't switch in over and over again either. In A-, it one shots every pokemon except itself, CharX, Heatran, MegaVenu, MegaSableye, and Fini. Fini it 2HKOs with Solar Beam (or even 1 solar beam and 1 fire blast), Venu and Sableye it 2HKOs with fire blast, heatran it can one shot with focus blast if no bulk, 2 shot otherwise, and char x is also 2 shotted with focus blast.

The point is that in this meta, the only good switch-ins Charizard Y has are chansey and toxapex (and nihilego if you're into that). It tears holes through any team it faces, pretty much, and has plenty of opportunities to come in, due to its typing (1 immunity, 2 4x resistances, a steel and fairy resistance, and others). In addition, all 3 primary mons that can switch into Charizard Y are prime targets for Dugtrio trapping, which means they make a great pair (add dug's electric immunity to that as well).

It hits ridiculously hard; 1HKOing the majority of the tier is nothing to scoff at, and 2HKOing most of the others is even better. What's not to like?

Well, there's a couple things. Stealth rock is a huge deal, especially with the most reliable defogger being fini, which is extremely predictable. And it also takes up the mega slot, which in this meta is also a big deal. However, it still has a hugely powerful attack, a decent speed tier and SpD to back it up, and a decent defensive typing (bar rocks). In terms of A-tier pokemon, I compare it to Volcarona. It's the wallbreaker to Volcarona's sweeper, trading out sweeping potential (though loltailwind could do work) for immediate and overwhelming power. However, both require rocks removal to hope to function (CharY at full health can take several notable attacks such as MMawile's sucker punch, lele's psychic, all of Greninja's attacks - bar Specs A-Gren's Hydro which it has a 63% chance of surviving -, and Gengar's shadow ball; CharY at half health can't take any of those), and both are walled by Chansey/Toxapex (+1 HP Ground admittedly has a good chance to 2HKO but haze exists and scald hurts).

I definitely think it's as good as stuff like Garchomp, Volcarona, M-Scizor, and Magearna. The only calcs I'll show are these:

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 108-127 (44.2 - 52%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle in Sun: 121-144 (49.5 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

(Shuckle was made normal type for these calcs and was chosen for having the highest defense and special defense stats and for them being equal)

Its Fire Blast is more powerful than MMawile's Play Rough. Yes, it requires hazard removal, and yes, it takes up the mega slot, but that's a small price to pay for the sheer wallbreaking potential it has.
While I absolutely love Zard Y in this meta, I can't agree with it rising, at least not right now. After using it for a long time and having built around 10 different teams with it, testing a lot of shit and how it performs alongside it, I've come to the realization that Zard-Y isn't as good as it seems. It's an insanely good wallbreaker and tears through a lot of common defensive cores such as LandoFini, LandoMagearna, etc but there are a couple of factors that reslly hold it back during a battle:
Its Speed: While 100 Base speed is enough for bulkier mons, it falls flat against more offensively oriented teams. With stuff like Tapu Koko T-Punch Metagross and a lot of Scarfers with rocks coverage for Volcarona (lol sedge keldeo) it doesn't have room to fire off its strong attacks and once it's done its job the opp can get back its momentum threating to rkill your Zard.
Weakness to rocks: This is probably its biggest flaw. I've tried using Zard on more offensive Voltturn teams (basically Voltturners+wallbreaker kind of stuff) and its weakness to rocks makes it an inferior choice when taking into account other strong breaker you could be using such as Hoopa-U. Zard can't stay in for long which forces it to constantly switch in and out, so as soon as your opp gets rocks up they get all the momentum because you pretty much can't use your insane breaker until you've cleared rocks. Then there's the fact that the tier lacks a reliable hazard remover. Tapu Fini is easy to pressure and doesn't synergyze well with Zard, Zapdos doesn't do much this gen and is also easy to pressure due to its rocks weakness. I've had the most success with Pheromosa this far but the problem is a competent opponent can spot the Spin mosa from miles away and if they predict a Spin and kill you you're done.
Mega Evolution opportunity cost: This has been explained several times for p much every single mega. You use both your Metagross slot and your best check to Metagross slot, and taking into account how Zard is easily rkilled by T-Punch Metagross, it just gets worse
All in all Zard is a great mon but its bug flaws hold it back from being a beast in this Steel-heavy meta. This is just my experience from using it a ton and trying to make it work on several teams
 
My issue with Xurkitree is that it's arguably the 2nd best pass recipient in the tier (right behind Manaphy) but does nothing else. Unlike Mana, it's standalone boosting sets are totally abhorrent are only barely worked very early on in the SMOU meta when people were still trying to figure out the game. I really want to argue that ranking something above C- means that Pokemon would have its own merit rather than something that's used to fill a very specific niche on a single specific team (ex Sheddy Stall, Necrozma Full TR) which Xurkitree really is, a secondary recipient for Scolipass. To run Xurk, you pretty much need Scoli and Mana on your team already to really justify it, which is why it should be down in C-.

@ the Torkoal discussion above

Torkoal was also on my list of suggested drops to unranked that I cut because people tend to justify "it's a tiny bit better than Ninetales and it's required for Sun."

My logic for wanting it unranked was that Sun is just absolutely terrible and has no real viable abusers even when it's up. Even if a decent Pokemon had Drought (Infernape or something) shit like Venusaur still aren't the best mons ever. It's a weather with a bad setter and weak abusers that still can't deal with the top threats of the meta real well. Torkoal did win the one game it showed up in SPL... but it was on TR Sun with Eruption Tran, and TDK could've lost that pretty easy had pretty much every read not went his way. Definitely not something I'd call consistent or conventional. If people are ok with the idea of dropping Torkoal despite it """having a niche""" then I'd be on that train as well.
Well torkoal has a niche in countering mega mawile.Some calcs:


+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 164-193 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 175-207 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


4 SpA Torkoal Overheat vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Mawile-Mega in Sun: 306-360 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO.
 
While I absolutely love Zard Y in this meta, I can't agree with it rising, at least not right now. After using it for a long time and having built around 10 different teams with it, testing a lot of shit and how it performs alongside it, I've come to the realization that Zard-Y isn't as good as it seems. It's an insanely good wallbreaker and tears through a lot of common defensive cores such as LandoFini, LandoMagearna, etc but there are a couple of factors that reslly hold it back during a battle:
Its Speed: While 100 Base speed is enough for bulkier mons, it falls flat against more offensively oriented teams. With stuff like Tapu Koko T-Punch Metagross and a lot of Scarfers with rocks coverage for Volcarona (lol sedge keldeo) it doesn't have room to fire off its strong attacks and once it's done its job the opp can get back its momentum threating to rkill your Zard.
Weakness to rocks: This is probably its biggest flaw. I've tried using Zard on more offensive Voltturn teams (basically Voltturners+wallbreaker kind of stuff) and its weakness to rocks makes it an inferior choice when taking into account other strong breaker you could be using such as Hoopa-U. Zard can't stay in for long which forces it to constantly switch in and out, so as soon as your opp gets rocks up they get all the momentum because you pretty much can't use your insane breaker until you've cleared rocks. Then there's the fact that the tier lacks a reliable hazard remover. Tapu Fini is easy to pressure and doesn't synergyze well with Zard, Zapdos doesn't do much this gen and is also easy to pressure due to its rocks weakness. I've had the most success with Pheromosa this far but the problem is a competent opponent can spot the Spin mosa from miles away and if they predict a Spin and kill you you're done.
Mega Evolution opportunity cost: This has been explained several times for p much every single mega. You use both your Metagross slot and your best check to Metagross slot, and taking into account how Zard is easily rkilled by T-Punch Metagross, it just gets worse
All in all Zard is a great mon but its bug flaws hold it back from being a beast in this Steel-heavy meta. This is just my experience from using it a ton and trying to make it work on several teams


Tapu Fini and Zard-Y don't synergyze well? Last I checked throw a steel and ground type in ur team and your looking pretty good. I don't wanna hear "but that wastes 4 of your team slots" when you can use something like zygarde to crumble the walls Zard-Y punched holes into. Next thing I don't like the oppurtunity cost argument. The whole point of us arguing to raise this thing is because it shows value over something like Metagross or Scizor which is why its already in A- right? And do people forget the defensive value Zard Y has it weakens water moves by 50% allowing some major bullshit to happen for mons who are weak to water. I mean this thing benefits the best mon in the tier Lando-T which certainly is pretty nice. Theres no such thing as a Metagross slot. Just comapring the two Metagross is faster has better coverage and way better defensive pivoting skills. But Zard Y brings defense in the form of the sun and is stronger. Metagross fills a certain role if you need a pokemon for that role sure go for it. Theres no such thing as a mega slot man there just normal pokemon who fill certain roles if you've already used a mega on your team use the next best thing. I know I'm rambling about this but seriously what everyone says about these 2 can be applied to themselves. You're using mega metagross so now you lack the best switch into mega metagross. Like seriously man that hasn't stopped it from being S. Now I'm by no means saying Zard Y is S but I believe it is A and I did post about this several pages ago


ZARD Y A- - A

And before this argument comes up just because Zard Y teams are linear does not stop them from being good.
 
I disagree that nothing can handle Charizard Y. I've been running Nihilego (choice scarf) and with only a little SpDe investment it can easily live multiple fire moves, survives a solar beam and outspeeds and KOs with power gem, then gets a beast boost and can sometimes even sweep from there. Pretty solid counter IMO.

(edit: not sure if this means it shouldn't rise to A, but still)
 
I disagree that nothing can handle Charizard Y. I've been running Nihilego (choice scarf) and with only a little SpDe investment it can easily live multiple fire moves, survives a solar beam and outspeeds and KOs with power gem, then gets a beast boost and can sometimes even sweep from there. Pretty solid counter IMO.

(edit: not sure if this means it shouldn't rise to A, but still)

Nihilego is easy to switch in to and is usually choiced forcing a swap afterwards while it may be a counter it lacks recovery and is easy to bring down being 4x weak to ground and while I'd never recommend this, Zard Y can carry earthquake if dealing with nihilego is such a problem.
 
I disagree that nothing can handle Charizard Y. I've been running Nihilego (choice scarf) and with only a little SpDe investment it can easily live multiple fire moves, survives a solar beam and outspeeds and KOs with power gem, then gets a beast boost and can sometimes even sweep from there. Pretty solid counter IMO.

(edit: not sure if this means it shouldn't rise to A, but still)
Who keeps CharY in on Nihilego? More importantly, I did mention nihilego in my original post. It can take a few fire blasts, same as zygarde, but can't switch in more than 2-3 times. I don't think CharY being rkilled by a poke that rkills most relevant non steels is a big point against it.

Edit: Replay featuring Zard putting extreme pressure on the other team, forcing them to repeatedly sack mons to it. Note that I was trying out Defog Kartana for fun here; not sure how that'll go. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-550950812
 
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After laddering to the 1700 range with Zard-Y teams, I'm also behind the nomination to A rank. While other megas like Metagross require much less support, Zard excels in its role as a wallbreaker. The sheer power being drought+STAB Fire Blast makes Zard's switchins extremely limited, and thrives off of the near constant presence of bulky cores and steel types. Zard's perfect for any of the early stages of a game, and the classic pivot+wallbreaker combo holds true.

Of course, Zard's weaknesses are quite obvious. Steath Rock is a huge hinderance to Zard, and requires one to always prioritize hazard removal in a game. Zard is also vulnerable to offensive teams, and needs to either tank a hit or force something out to do any damage. It's rather obvious looking at this that Zard-Y teams are at a natural disadvantage against offensive hazard teams. Teambuilding around Zard-Y is also rather restrictive, as the support required often limits your other options to two or three other slots.

Despite this weakness, the immense power behind Zard-Y's attacks makes him an invaluable teammate of BO teams who can provide the support that Zard needs. Who cares if his teams are simple: they work. Having a powerhouse on Zard's scale gives his team an enormous advantage, and offensive partners can make Zard's job even easier (Zard-Y+Dug is disgustingly good on its own).

Charizard-Y A- -> A
 
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After laddering to the 1700 range with Zard-Y teams, I'm also behind the nomination to A rank. While other megas like Metagross require much less support, Zard excels in its role as a wallbreaker. The sheer power being drought+STAB Fire Blast makes Zard's switchins extremely limited, and thrives off of the near constant presence of bulky cores and steel types. Zard's perfect for any of the early stages of a game, and the classic pivot+wallbreaker combo holds true.

Of course, Zard's weaknesses are quite obvious. Steath Rock is a huge hinderance to Zard, and requires one to always prioritize hazard removal in a game. Zard is also vulnerable to offensive teams, and needs to either tank a hit or force something out to do any damage. It's rather obvious looking at this that Zard-Y teams are at a natural disadvantage against offensive hazard teams. Teambuilding around Zard-Y is also rather restrictive, as the support required often limits your other options to two or three other slots.

Despite this weakness, the immense power behind Zard-Y's attacks makes him an invaluable teammate of BO teams who can provide the support that Zard needs. Who cares if his teams are simple: they work. Having a powerhouse on Zard's scale gives his team an enormous advantage, and offensive partners can make Zard's job even easier (Zard-Y+Dug is disgustingly good on its own).

Charizard-Y A- -> A
I'm not entirely against the rise, but nor am I entirely convinced. I've found Zard-Y a hard mon to face, and it is very capable of taking out some top OU mons, and often means sacrificing a member of your team if you switch into one of its moves. Obviously, Zard-Y is a top wallbreaker, can hit extremely hard and is thus really difficult to switch in on. Added to this is it's excellent coverage between Solarbeam, Fire Blast, and Focus
Miss Blast, which means there are few mons that aren't hit really hard by one of its moves.

However, I think that people are underestimating how easy Zard-Y is to revenge kill, even without rocks up. Base 100 speed is not great, and is outsped by a number of key threats. I'll focus on mons that can revenge Zard-Y without rocks up, as it is so easy to kill with rocks that it almost requires hazard control. Most teams carry a faster mon that can OHKO. The go to mega in the tier, Mega-Metagross, outspeeds and has a 68.8% chance to OHKO with thunder punch. Similarly, Tapu Koko can outspeed and OHKO with T-bolt, or Latios can take any of Zard's moves, outspeeds, and 2HKOs with Draco Meteor (or OHKOs with Gigavolt Havoc). Garchomp also outspeeds and OHKOs if it is running rock slide, or does 80-95% with outrage. Obviously Nihilegio OHKOs, as has been pointed out slightly too much for a less common threat, as does Terrakion (another faster threat which runs rock moves), and even Gyarados OHKOs with Z Supersonic Strike (without a boost), and cannot be OHKO'd by Zard-Y.

It's just hard to find a team right now without a pokemon that outspeeds and KOs Zard-Y or can take a hit and KO Zard, even without rocks. When rocks are up, almost every potential revenge killer can find a way to OHKO Zard-Y (Gengar, Keldeo, Scarf Lele, Greninja [Protean and Ash], Phero, etc.), which means hazard control is necessary (as has been pointed out). Added to this problem is the fact that Zard-Y relies on somewhat inaccurate moves, which makes it less consistent at its main job of wall breaking. Because of its vulnerability to revenge killers, and inconsistent moves, Zard-Y is too vulnerable to most teams in this quite offensive meta, which typically carry at least one of the aforementioned mons. So I wouldn't call having Zard-Y on a BO team a "huge advantage" when compared to other mons.

For me, this is enough to make a rise seem unnecessary as of now, but I am open to persuasion (and hold no power in the final decision, so it doesn't even matter if I'm persuaded, only that your case is persuasive!).
 
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You guys got to state every mon's weakness, that is understandable. Lets see, the best megas at the moment are probably Metagross, Mawile, Scizor, Sharpedo and Pinsir?, also both Zards. Pertaining to the OU and below meta, Smogon may ban Mega mawile in later time, because it really damages shit that has taken stealth rocks and a +2 Adamant Huge Power M-Mawile Sucker Punch hurts badly, of course after the opposing Lele has been eliminated, or the opponent hasnt even brought the little piece of cancer with them. Those megas that I have listed dont really give a shit about priority much, Metagross's case is the M-Mawile Sucker Punch, Sharpedo's case is Mach Punch from anything and Pinsir's case being Weavile or Mamoswine's Ice Shard (Which can ko after rocks, if pinsir megaed already, and both have Life Orb). Beedrill hates all priority except fighting priority, Lele and Pheromosa is a disgusting but efficent core that needs banishment, but surprisingly, Smogon didnt do that yet. Hopefully one of the two gets banned eventually, but someone may bring up Alolan Muk, which handles both if they are both special attackers. But, just saying that it is a extremely powerful core. This is a entry by a Pokemon novice, please explain my flaws and downfalls and things that I neglected to add.
 
I'm kinda on the fence about Zard Y but this discussion has kind of made me realize something. Why in the world is Zard Y and Zard X in the same tier? Zard Y at this point in the meta is significantly better at its job than X is. Zard X as a DD sweeper is pretty terrible at this moment since pretty much every team has a scarfer that outruns it after the plus 1 from DD. scarfed chomp and nihilego OHKO while keldeo gengar duggy and mosa can easily revenge after a little chip damage from rocks or whatever zard tried to set up on. I think those are some of the more common scarfers feel free to add on if I missed any.

On top of that, the GOAT set of defensive lando-T has insane usage currently and that thing destroys Zard X. Maybe a bulky Zard X set is better idk but I haven't seen one of those anywhere. Zard X's role is to sweep and against a well built team it never seems to do anything past grab a kill and then get revenged. As opposed to zard Y which is extremely good at doing its job of wallbreaking. So whether is be a zard Y upgrade or X downgrade I definitely think there should be seperation between the two. I'd lean towards:

Mega Charizard X: A- -> B+
 
I also echo Zard Y's rise for all the points stated above. It's speed has been brought up as an issue but I've used a gimmicky DD set which worked wonders for me (and later found out Flame Charge exists). Another factor not being brought up, but massively underrated, is the ever so "Is it Zard X or Y" factor. It can be pretty tricky to tell at times, and a mispredict can result in catastrophe and both the Zards completely destroy each other's checks.
 
I'm not entirely against the rise, but nor am I entirely convinced. I've found Zard-Y a hard mon to face, and it is very capable of taking out some top OU mons, and often means sacrificing a member of your team if you switch into one of its moves. Obviously, Zard-Y is a top wallbreaker, can hit extremely hard and is thus really difficult to switch in on. Added to this is it's excellent coverage between Solarbeam, Fire Blast, and Focus Miss Blast, which means there are few mons that aren't hit really hard by one of its moves.

However, I think that people are underestimating how easy Zard-Y is to revenge kill, even without rocks up. Base 100 speed is not great, and is outsped by a number of key threats. I'll focus on mons that can revenge Zard-Y without rocks up, as it is so easy to kill with rocks that it almost requires hazard control. For instance, most teams carry a faster mon that can OHKO. The go to mega in the tier, Mega-Metagross, outspeeds and has a 68.8% chance to OHKO with thunder punch. Similarly, Tapu Koko can outspeed and OHKO with T-bolt, or Latios can take any of Zard's moves, outspeeds, and 2HKOs with Draco Meteor (or OHKOs with Gigavolt Havoc). Garchomp also outspeeds and OHKOs if it is running rock slide, or does 80-95% with outrage. Obviously Nihilegio OHKOs, as has been pointed out slightly too much for a less common threat, as does Terrakion (another faster threat which runs rock moves), and even Gyarados OHKOs with Z Supersonic Strike (without a boost), and cannot be OHKO'd by Zard-Y.

It's just hard to find a team right now without a pokemon that outspeeds and KOs Zard-Y or can take a hit and KO Zard, even without rocks. When rocks are up, almost every potential revenge killer can find a way to OHKO Zard-Y (Gengar, Keldeo, Scarf Lele, Greninja [Protean and Ash], Phero, etc.), which means hazard control is necessary (as has been pointed out). Added to this problem is the fact that Zard-Y relies on somewhat inaccurate moves, which makes it less consistent at its main job of wall breaking. So I wouldn't call having Zard-Y on a BO team a "huge advantage" when compared to other mons.

For me, this is enough to make a rise seem unnecessary as of now, but I am open to persuasion (and hold no power in the final decision, so it doesn't even matter if I'm persuaded, only that your case is persuasive!).
Once CharY is in though, preferably unharmed and facing an enemy either slower than it or unable to harm it, It's gonna either kill a mon or heavily damage one; which is why I tend to lead with it. Lando is the most common lead and on some insane 50% of teams. If you lead with Char-Y against Lando, you guarantee that you either 1. Take out their Lando and probably their rock setter with it (thus eliminating CharY's biggest weakness) or 2. Force it out and either KO the mon that switches in or do heavy damage to it. If it's fini, finish it with Solar Beam. The best way to get free switches with CharY is to predict hazard setters. With CharY on your team, any opponent is desperate to get their hazards up. Fortunately, (bar garchomp, but he's dealt with easily enough) Char beats most hazard setters. Switch it in on the SR, then KO the setter and go to work until you have to switch out. A huge part of CharY's appeal is the huge amount of pressure it puts on the enemy team, and with the right teammates (hello, dugtrio), you can take care of its most threatening answers.

Out of the mons that you mentioned that threaten it, Megagross can't switch in at all (but can be trapped by Dug if it presses thunder punch), neither can Koko, and volt switch is easy to play around with ground types on your team. Garchomp gets 2HKOed by fire blast, so it can only switch in once, and after that is open to being rkilled by basically anything. Nihilego is the most offensive counter to Char, but if you run Dug it'll be scared as hell to switch in. Gyarados, like Chomp, is 2HKOed (most of the time), and unlike Chomp is slower than CharY.

Without rocks up, the only mon (out of the latter revenge killers you listed) that OHKOs CharY is Hydro Pump Specs Ash-Greninja; and that's only a 37.5% chance to OHKO. Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump doesn't (and who runs specs?), Protean Gren doesn't (Gunk shot does the most at 70ish% I believe), and any version of Phero doesn't.

It requires a team built with it in mind and hazard control, but it's worth it. CharY is a fucking monster.
 

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Ditto: Unranked->Ranked

Ditto has been overlooked in my opinion, because I've been trying this mon out and it's worked pretty well for me. There are two main things it does well enough to merit a rank.

The first of these is Ditto's extremely favorable matchup against stall, even if it is holding a Choice Scarf. It can switch in on any Pokémon found on stall, besides things like Shedinja, and proceed to sit there spamming recovery and utility moves, switching out and back in to refresh its PP. The only thing Ditto has to be wary of in stall matchups is Dugtrio, but unlike Pokémon like Hoopa-U, Ditto can evade Dugtrio by staying away from susceptible Pokémon like Chansey.

The other task Ditto can perform well is that of a very reliable revenge killer. It can reliably deal with most setup sweepers, such as Mega Charizard X, Volcarona, and Kartana, and it can win damage races against opponents like Tapu Koko due to its decent HP.

Because Ditto has these two useful niches, it deserves to be ranked in my opinion.

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-551058268 Not the best replay, but it shows how well Ditto does against opposing stall.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-551060291 Ditto helps me out against this Sticky Web team; it prevents Kartana from setting up and ultimately sweeping my team, causing my opponent to later sack it.
 
On the topic of Zard Y going to A, I disagree with this change. This was something that was brought up in the past about a month ago and I never got around to posting about after talking to ABR and CBB about. The biggest issue we talked about was just how restrictive it is when you add it on a team. In the past, you had to pair it with a trapper like Tyranitar to beat Latios and Latias but since those don't really exist in the current meta, you can forgo this. In the current meta, you're basically forced to run Tapu Fini and Dugtrio to support it. Due to the fact that Zard Y has already dedicated 3 slots to make sure it survives and is able to function, you've left yourself open to threats such as Metagross which is unfixable at that point.

So after the issue with building, comes how it plays in practice. On paper, it has always been super threatening and now even moreso with the disappearance of the Lati twins, but when you actually play with and against it doesn't live up to those expectations. While it hits super hard, it rarely manages to break through teams. From everything game I've seen it in SPL, it's super underwhelming. Taking a look at a few replays from SPL, Ben gay vs Finch, in this game all of Zard Y's contribution were weaken Zygarde, and Marowak and then died. Advantage vs xtrashine, Zard Y kills off a Mimikyu and then dies do Zygarde. P2 vs Poek, Zard Y breaks Mimikyu's disguise then does nothing else and is sacked off later on. There were a couple more games where Zard Y was used like Blunder vs Sweepage, where had Fire Blast not missed as much as it did it would have swept because Sweepage later showed that his Zard Y was Tailwind.

These are just the two main issues from my perspective of Zard Y. This doesn't even include that it just can't break past Toxapex and that Zygarde just sets up on it and proceeds to kill it. It's similar to where Mega Pinsir stands in the current, requires a lot of support and isn't nearly as threatening in practice as it appears to be on paper.
 
I can't get behind a Char-Y rise either. In my experience, it usually puts in a lot of work early-mid game, applying pressure by switching in on things before rocks are up. That said, it can seriously restrict how your team functions because you absolutely need to get rocks off (don't take out of context, pls) your side of the field if you want to apply any sort of pressure with it mid/late game. Speaking of late game, unless it's Tailwind, it's usually not going to do much because of that really slow speed, so it's sort of limited to its niche as a wallbreaker. Additionally, Flamethrower drops a lot of power, but Fire Blast misses can literally lose you a game (as demonstrated above with one of Subject 18 's replays). I think strong Fire-STAB + strong Grass coverage is pretty anti-meta, so that's why people have a lot of success once its in.

All in all, when I think of an A ranked mon, I think of something that's consistently effective at its niche, and Charizard-Y just requires way too much support to be called consistent. Despite the team support, I think it's so effective at what it does that it deserves its A- ranking.
 
Zapdos to A-

Zapdos should rise for its offensive sets, namely Roost + 3 attacks and Agility + 3 attacks (either can be with Electrium Z). Roost + (Electric + Ice + Fire coverage) is so good right now when most teams rely on the Fini/ Lando/ Tangrowth/ Heatran core as their defensive backbone. The Agility set is an excellent late game cleaner with the speed, coverage and it fares well against other common late game cleaners like Ash-Gren, Pheromosa, Mega Meta.

tl; dr Zapdos has good coverage and good cleaning potential, it deserves A-

Latios to B

Draco Meteor isnt what it used to be with all the fairies and MegaMeta, Celesteela, MegaMaw, Magearna running around. Psychic-type attack is heavily prepared for because of Tapu Lele. Specs set are average for these 2 reasons. Defog is done better by Tapu Fini. Scarf set's purpose is for Zard X i believe but Nihilego, Garchomp, Keldeo also covered Zard X with their scarf sets while not missing out on Volcarona. Best set atm is the Z move lure sets imo but then you're using your Z move slot so opportunity cost

tl; dr it struggles a lot atm, not as good as the other B+ stuff. Drop to B.

Manaphy to B

Z-Rain Dance isnt fast enough to clean offensive teams and Z-Surf isnt strong enough to break stall (well-played Clef + Tang + Pex dont mind this at all). The Greninjas or Keldeo or Flynium-Z Gyarados are much better picks for the offensive Water type slot. In fact, Ash-Gren hits as hard as a +3 manaphy.

Tl;dr subpar choice for an offensive Water-type, drop to B
 
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Gotta disagree with that Latios nom. While it seems poor offensively on paper it gets all the coverage it needs, you just need to choose what's best for your team. While Latios might seem to lag behind offensively it's defensive typing gives it a solid place on some builds (in particular, the Maw/Lati/Rotom teams) for its ability to switch into things like Heatran, Chary, and Keldeo and threaten Toxapex. As a scarfer it is a good cleaner since it funnily enough, outspeeds all relevant scafers which makes it difficult to revenge kill. Access to Trick helps as well. Latios looks weird in the current meta but it's strengths put it at B+ for me.
 
Gotta disagree with that Latios nom. While it seems poor offensively on paper it gets all the coverage it needs, you just need to choose what's best for your team. While Latios might seem to lag behind offensively it's defensive typing gives it a solid place on some builds (in particular, the Maw/Lati/Rotom teams) for its ability to switch into things like Heatran, Chary, and Keldeo and threaten Toxapex. As a scarfer it is a good cleaner since it funnily enough, outspeeds all relevant scafers which makes it difficult to revenge kill. Access to Trick helps as well. Latios looks weird in the current meta but it's strengths put it at B+ for me.
About the scarf set, you are not cleaning late game with Draco Meteor for obvious reason; Psyshock/Psychic is not bad i guess but late game mons include trick room/ shift gear Magearna, MegaMeta, Scarf Mosa, Offensive Celesteela, MegaMawile, the ninjas so that's kinda iffy. Its coverages are good, ngl: Tbolt, HP Fire, Surf, and EQ but then they are either weak (Chomp does EQ, Keldeo does Surf, HP Fire is lol) and/or cant snowball like Nihilego (Tbolt). Obviously these coverages are good on Z move lure set but that's not the scarf set you brought up to defend Latios.

I understand that Latios has its values but it's just not doing that well right now.
 
I don’t understand why you people like to pick on Latios so damn much. First ORAS, now this?

According to you, Latios should drop because:
  • Too many Fairies
  • Psychic-type attacks are prepared for, thanks to Tapu Lele’s influence
  • Scarf set is outclassed apparently
  • Defog set is outclassed apparently
  • Z-move sets are outclassed apparently

These same Fairies keep Dark-types at bay – which troubles Latios more IMO. While your flaws are all very true, I would argue that his benefits are also very true – namely that his Psychic-moves are complemented by a satisfactory coverage movepool for him to pose a credible threat to Psychic-type responses such as Celesteela, Skarmory, or – if utilizing a Choice item – Chansey/Clefable.

Latios was A+ in ORAS because he found quite a lot of switch in opportunities, possessed sufficient defenses to stomach a few neutral hits, and was able to support his teammates with coverage/support moves. While he doesn’t find as many switch-in opportunities, his defenses and movepool haven’t changed, meaning he can still give support to his allies like he did before. For instance, he makes an excellent ally to Pinsir-Mega because he can lure Skarmory and Defog hazards– not to mention weaken enemies like Ferrothorn or Rotom-W for Pinsir-Mega to deal with later.

It isn’t as outstanding as it was before (due to lack of switch-in opportunities and the aforementioned Fairies), but that’s why he’s B+ and not A+ like before. I see little reason for a drop.

Also, do you care to explain WHY Z-move sets are outclassed?

I also don’t approve of your Manaphy downrank.

According to you, Manaphy should drop because
  • Z-Rain Dance isn’t fast enough to eliminate offensive teams
  • Z-Surf isn’t strong enough to get through Stall
  • Greninja/Keldeo/Gyarados are better offensive Water-types (and apparently Greninja-Ashole version does as much DPS as a +3 Manaphy)
I’ll address these points piece-by-piece.
  • Z-Rain Dance has merit because Manaphy can avoid OHKOs and 2HKOs from several mons. Admittedly, Manaphy does have trouble vs. offense, but it’s not deadweight – just because it has Z-Rain Dance doesn’t mean it HAS to use it. You have to be smart on which move to use, and whether to treat Manaphy like a speed-sweeper or a wallbreaker. Heck, you don’t even need to set-up – Scald discourages enemies such as Tapu Bulu and Pheromosa from trying to take advantage of your TGs. Don’t forget that Manaphy’s meh 100 Speed is compensated by 100/100/100 defenses, which means Manaphy can usually chew a hit and then strike back. Manaphy may not 6-0 the enemy always, but it usually at the very least scores a good amount of damage and usually scores at least one kill.
  • Chansey is 2HKOed by +6 Scald in Rain, and Clefable isn’t completely a hard-stop to Manaphy because it has to guess whether or not Manaphy will Z-move that exact turn. At the very least, it poses a challenge to Stall – they have to predict too. It’s not meant to 6-0 Stall, it’s there to take out a key member for an ally to get through later.
  • Greninja/Keldeo/Gyarados are DIFFERENT (not better, DIFFERENT, there’s a difference between the two terms) offensive Water-types. Greninja is a mindless i’m-gonna-repeatedly-utilize-my-coverage attacker who doesn’t try to setup, Keldeo either breaks walls or uses a Choice Scarf, and Gyarados is a setup mon who sets up on different foes.
  • Also, about your little Greninja-Ashole comment:
    • Greninja-Ashole may hit as hard as a +3 Manaphy, but does it hit harder than a +6 Manaphy? Because I don’t see Greninja-Ashole busting through Chansey anytime soon (it’s main roadblock when fighting Stall)
    • Greninja-Ashole has to score a kill first, and it’s easier to hit Tail Glow than to kill an enemy. Something for you to consider.
 
Aggreed, Ditto is a great mon to switch into Mega Sableye, as it will happily take its Knock Off, allowing it to switch moves throughout the match and PP stall, as well as reflect Mega Sable's Will O Wisp. This should really not be understated in its benefit in combating stall.

And of course, Scarf Ditto is always handy in deterring Offensive set up sweepers and scouting opponents' moves in general.

Truly, the only playstyle Ditto is deadweight against is Trick Room.

Ditto: Unranked->Ranked

Ditto has been overlooked in my opinion, because I've been trying this mon out and it's worked pretty well for me. There are two main things it does well enough to merit a rank.

The first of these is Ditto's extremely favorable matchup against stall, even if it is holding a Choice Scarf. It can switch in on any Pokémon found on stall, besides things like Shedinja, and proceed to sit there spamming recovery and utility moves, switching out and back in to refresh its PP. The only thing Ditto has to be wary of in stall matchups is Dugtrio, but unlike Pokémon like Hoopa-U, Ditto can evade Dugtrio by staying away from susceptible Pokémon like Chansey.

The other task Ditto can perform well is that of a very reliable revenge killer. It can reliably deal with most setup sweepers, such as Mega Charizard X, Volcarona, and Kartana, and it can win damage races against opponents like Tapu Koko due to its decent HP.

Because Ditto has these two useful niches, it deserves to be ranked in my opinion.

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-551058268 Not the best replay, but it shows how well Ditto does against opposing stall.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-551060291 Ditto helps me out against this Sticky Web team; it prevents Kartana from setting up and ultimately sweeping my team, causing my opponent to later sack it.
 
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