Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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I disagree for a couple reasons.

1. 4x rocks weakness. This cannot be stressed enough. You need reliable hazard control, which is pretty difficult in this meta since you essentially only have 4 options (M Scizor, Zapdos, Fini, Excadrill) and none are super ideal.

2. Coverage. Volcarona obviously has to run a fire type move and has to run QD, which means it only has two slots for coverage. It can run STAB Bug Buzz, or Giga Drain, or psychic, or HP Ground, but only two when it'd like all of them. Running the Shattered psyche means you're guaranteed psychic, which will probably be useless after you use the z (more than one poison type on a team is uncommon).

3. Its bulky set can't check Megagross. Its defense is ass, and even with 252 HP/252 Def it gets 2HKOed by Megagross's Zen Headbutt - which almost all of them run, despite what you said. It's pretty underwhelming in general, because 85/65/105 defenses aren't that great by any means.

4. Rise of 100+ scarfers. Nihilego, Terrakion, even stone edge Keldeo are all popular choices nowadays and are all tailor made to counter Volcarona. With them running around, Volcarona finds it much more difficult to sweep.

It's still the most devastating special set up sweeper in the tier (bar QD Phero but rip), but 4x rocks, Scarfers, and its lack of diversity hold it back from A+.

It also feels wrong for it to be two subranks above CharY when it's essentially the sweeper to Char's wallbreaker. One rank makes sense because Char takes the mega slot, but two is a bit much.

Speaking of special sweepers;

What do people think of Z Hypnosis Xurkitree? Even at +1, base 83 speed isn't the best, but having a 100% accurate sleep move (with only dark types immune to it) that grants +1 speed is pretty devastating. It basically means you have a free turn of set up, which means tail glow, and then it's off to the races. If you don't have an answer to it (like scarf terrakion), then you could be 6-0ed right then and there.
Dark types are still affected by Z-Hypnosis, they are only immune to prankster moves.

And as for the Xurkitree set, yes it can be very effective if your opponent isn't prepared for it, but aren't there a plethora of scarfers in the teir that can wreck it because it has very little in terms of defences?

EDIT: Also, can you even call it a "sweeper"? It has such piss poor speed that I really don't imagine it sweeping any sort of well built team any time soon.
 
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I disagree for a couple reasons.

1. 4x rocks weakness. This cannot be stressed enough. You need reliable hazard control, which is pretty difficult in this meta since you essentially only have 4 options (M Scizor, Zapdos, Fini, Excadrill) and none are super ideal.

2. Coverage. Volcarona obviously has to run a fire type move and has to run QD, which means it only has two slots for coverage. It can run STAB Bug Buzz, or Giga Drain, or psychic, or HP Ground, but only two when it'd like all of them. Running the Shattered psyche means you're guaranteed psychic, which will probably be useless after you use the z (more than one poison type on a team is uncommon).

3. Its bulky set can't check Megagross. Its defense is ass, and even with 252 HP/252 Def it gets 2HKOed by Megagross's Zen Headbutt - which almost all of them run, despite what you said. It's pretty underwhelming in general, because 85/65/105 defenses aren't that great by any means.

4. Rise of 100+ scarfers. Nihilego, Terrakion, even stone edge Keldeo are all popular choices nowadays and are all tailor made to counter Volcarona. With them running around, Volcarona finds it much more difficult to sweep.

It's still the most devastating special set up sweeper in the tier (bar QD Phero but rip), but 4x rocks, Scarfers, and its lack of diversity hold it back from A+.

It also feels wrong for it to be two subranks above CharY when it's essentially the sweeper to Char's wallbreaker. One rank makes sense because Char takes the mega slot, but two is a bit much.

Speaking of special sweepers;

What do people think of Z Hypnosis Xurkitree? Even at +1, base 83 speed isn't the best, but having a 100% accurate sleep move (with only dark types immune to it) that grants +1 speed is pretty devastating. It basically means you have a free turn of set up, which means tail glow, and then it's off to the races. If you don't have an answer to it (like scarf terrakion), then you could be 6-0ed right then and there.
I think scarf works better since it puts pressure on things like skarm with volt switch and kills lando with HP ice. Z move takes too much time to set up, and Xurk is revenge killed by a lot of things so
 
I disagree for a couple reasons.

1. 4x rocks weakness. This cannot be stressed enough. You need reliable hazard control, which is pretty difficult in this meta since you essentially only have 4 options (M Scizor, Zapdos, Fini, Excadrill) and none are super ideal.

2. Coverage. Volcarona obviously has to run a fire type move and has to run QD, which means it only has two slots for coverage. It can run STAB Bug Buzz, or Giga Drain, or psychic, or HP Ground, but only two when it'd like all of them. Running the Shattered psyche means you're guaranteed psychic, which will probably be useless after you use the z (more than one poison type on a team is uncommon).

3. Its bulky set can't check Megagross. Its defense is ass, and even with 252 HP/252 Def it gets 2HKOed by Megagross's Zen Headbutt - which almost all of them run, despite what you said. It's pretty underwhelming in general, because 85/65/105 defenses aren't that great by any means.

4. Rise of 100+ scarfers. Nihilego, Terrakion, even stone edge Keldeo are all popular choices nowadays and are all tailor made to counter Volcarona. With them running around, Volcarona finds it much more difficult to sweep.

It's still the most devastating special set up sweeper in the tier (bar QD Phero but rip), but 4x rocks, Scarfers, and its lack of diversity hold it back from A+.

It also feels wrong for it to be two subranks above CharY when it's essentially the sweeper to Char's wallbreaker. One rank makes sense because Char takes the mega slot, but two is a bit much.

Speaking of special sweepers;

What do people think of Z Hypnosis Xurkitree? Even at +1, base 83 speed isn't the best, but having a 100% accurate sleep move (with only dark types immune to it) that grants +1 speed is pretty devastating. It basically means you have a free turn of set up, which means tail glow, and then it's off to the races. If you don't have an answer to it (like scarf terrakion), then you could be 6-0ed right then and there.
Xurkitree sucks. Z-Hypnosis is a garbage set and will only work against bad teams because any decently strong scarfer can OHKO or do like 80% to it, meaning with minimal prior damage (sometimes Spikes / Stealth Rock) those scarfers that you were talking about taking out Volcarona will just take out Xurkitree too. You are also wrong with Z-Hypnosis being 100% accurate because I've seen it miss a million times, which is part of what makes Xurkitree unreliable as a sweeper compared to Volcarona, Gyarados, etc. Let's also not forget the other, better Electric-types in the tier (Tapu Koko, Rotom-W, also Raikou whose Sub / Calm Mind set is actually pretty good, I'd recommend it) and there you have the reason why no good players actually use Xurkitree EXCEPT on Baton Pass, wherein Xurkitree will not be using Psychium Z anyways. Z-Hypnosis also only works one time, and after that good luck living any hits from any strong attacker, which again makes it unreliable compared to any other sweeper. I could go on and on with what makes Xurkitree outclassed and bad, such as the lack of defensive utility it brings to teams, being outclassed as a scarfer in almost every way, being affected by every type of entry hazard, you can really just keep going.
 
I agree with all your reasons as to why Volcarona is good but I have to disagree in it moving to A+. The reason is Volcarona, while probably the scariest sweeper in the meta, will always have the 4x rocks weakness working against it. This means you have to build around Volcarona and you can't just spam it on teams. The pokemon in S and A+ rank are there because they are stand alone mons that you can use on just about any playstyle (minus stall) with no drawback. I can throw a Zygarde on any team I build with little to no downside, it requires no support from the other team members to be able to do its job. This is why it is more viable in the current meta. Volcarona is an awesome mon but the support it needs from the rest of its team, to me, means it is more at home in the A rank.

And also for profile pics just go to your account prfile and you should be able to upload any photo you want :)

I don't really think the reason it can't rise is not because its not self dependent. Pokemon like Zard-X have been S rank before while also being 4x weak to rocks. The problem with Volcarona is that it does not output enough for how much support it requires to warrant a rise. I'm on the fence about whether it should rise or not but the point is just because it SR weak does not mean its locked to forever be A.
 
Xurkitree sucks. Z-Hypnosis is a garbage set and will only work against bad teams because any decently strong scarfer can OHKO or do like 80% to it, meaning with minimal prior damage (sometimes Spikes / Stealth Rock) those scarfers that you were talking about taking out Volcarona will just take out Xurkitree too. You are also wrong with Z-Hypnosis being 100% accurate because I've seen it miss a million times, which is part of what makes Xurkitree unreliable as a sweeper compared to Volcarona, Gyarados, etc. Let's also not forget the other, better Electric-types in the tier (Tapu Koko, Rotom-W, also Raikou whose Sub / Calm Mind set is actually pretty good, I'd recommend it) and there you have the reason why no good players actually use Xurkitree EXCEPT on Baton Pass, wherein Xurkitree will not be using Psychium Z anyways. Z-Hypnosis also only works one time, and after that good luck living any hits from any strong attacker, which again makes it unreliable compared to any other sweeper. I could go on and on with what makes Xurkitree outclassed and bad, such as the lack of defensive utility it brings to teams, being outclassed as a scarfer in almost every way, being affected by every type of entry hazard, you can really just keep going.
I think I got it after I edited my comment and also added another one stating that it was shit, though that was deleted for being as redundant as yours.

Garchomp: A -> A-

This mon kind of reminds me of Clefable and CharX (also in the A- rank) in that it's good, but it's not as good as it used to be.

Zygarde and Lando pretty much do everything Garchomp does but better. Lando is a better set up ground sweeper with better attack, access to Rock Polish, and a great secondary STAB in Flying, Rocky Helmet Lando is a better rocks setter and pivot, SubCoil Zygarde is a better sub user, etcetcetc. In short, Zygarde has Thousand Arrows, Extreme Speed, Coil, better bulk, and Dragon Dance over Chomp. Lando has rock polish, better attack, and a better secondary STAB for z move sweeping over Chomp.

In most situations Zygarde or Lando seem like better options, yet Chomp is only one rank below Zygarde... and Chomp's scarfer set (the only thing it does better than them due to its speed tier) now has to compete with all the other, faster scarfers that I mentioned with volcarona.

Because of this, I think it deserves to go down a rank. It seems much more comfortable with the mons in A- than the mons in A.

I don't really think the reason it can't rise is not because its not self dependent. Pokemon like Zard-X have been S rank before while also being 4x weak to rocks. The problem with Volcarona is that it does not output enough for how much support it requires to warrant a rise. I'm on the fence about whether it should rise or not but the point is just because it SR weak does not mean its locked to forever be A.
That was a different meta, and I named several other reasons for Volcarona to not rise. Moreover, ZardX is only 2x weak after mega evolution so it's hardly an apt comparison.
 
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I feel Dugtrio deserves a rise on the viability rankings from A to A+. Dugtrio has some important things landorus doesn't. One thing it has that Landorus doesnt is much higher speed, sitting at a very fast 120 base speed stat. It also has the incredible ability Arena Trap, which traps any pokemon that switches into it or dugtrio switches into! However the thing that keeps dugtrio from rising to AG is it's absolutely pitiful bulk, however this can be worked around! Use a focus sash and give it reversal and stealth rock along with stone edge and earthquake, and that allows you to deal lots of damage, then when you are knocked down to one hp, you can either use a 200 bp reversal, or set up rocks before you go down. I personally believe it deserves to be raised to A+ for these reasons.
 
I don't really think the reason it can't rise is not because its not self dependent. Pokemon like Zard-X have been S rank before while also being 4x weak to rocks. The problem with Volcarona is that it does not output enough for how much support it requires to warrant a rise. I'm on the fence about whether it should rise or not but the point is just because it SR weak does not mean its locked to forever be A.
Just to clear this up a little bit because I feel you may have misunderstood me a little, I am in no way saying every mon weak to rocks can never be above *insert letter here* rank. I am talking specifically about Volcarona and the the support it needs, and this is something you seem to agree with at least somewhat from your post. Volcarona needs a lot of help to do its job effectively and this was also the reason why we didn't see a Zard-Y raise after some discussion a week or two back. There was at least one post from a member of the ranking team during that discussion explaining why he was against a zard-y raise and I think a lot of those points are also very relevant to the Volcarona argument.
 
Any thoughts on Rotom-Heat ?
I've been experimentating a bit with it recently, and I find it surprising that it isn't mentioned on the viability ranking.

It checks quite a lot of interesting stuff:
Mega Metagross (MMash, Ice Punch, TPunch, EQ basically do zero, only Zen Headbutt 2HKOs)
Celesteela
Mega Mawile (Overheat OHKOs)
Magearna
Mega Scizor
Tapu Koko
Thundurus and Thundurus-T
Tapu Bulu
Tapu Fini without water move
Tornadus-T
Mega Pinsir
Jirachi
Heatran can only Toxic it
...

Offensively, it beats core such as Toxapex/Fini + Tangrowth/Ferrothorn + Mega Scizor/Gross which are pretty good on the meta right now.

In my opinion, it has a niche over Rotom-W, but its weakness to SR is really annoying on the other hand.
I could definitely see it ranked C+/B-, what do you think ?
 
Any thoughts on Rotom-Heat ?
I've been experimentating a bit with it recently, and I find it surprising that it isn't mentioned on the viability ranking.

It checks quite a lot of interesting stuff:
Mega Metagross (MMash, Ice Punch, TPunch, EQ basically do zero, only Zen Headbutt 2HKOs)
Celesteela
Mega Mawile (Overheat OHKOs)
Magearna
Mega Scizor
Tapu Koko
Thundurus and Thundurus-T
Tapu Bulu
Tapu Fini without water move
Tornadus-T
Mega Pinsir
Jirachi
Heatran can only Toxic it
...

Offensively, it beats core such as Toxapex/Fini + Tangrowth/Ferrothorn + Mega Scizor/Gross which are pretty good on the meta right now.

In my opinion, it has a niche over Rotom-W, but its weakness to SR is really annoying on the other hand.
I could definitely see it ranked C+/B-, what do you think ?
Any replays to show this? This sounds good in theory but replays would make it a more solid nomination. Also what set are you using, what type of builds are you putting it on etc etc.
 
Any thoughts on Rotom-Heat ?
I've been experimentating a bit with it recently, and I find it surprising that it isn't mentioned on the viability ranking.

It checks quite a lot of interesting stuff:
Mega Metagross (MMash, Ice Punch, TPunch, EQ basically do zero, only Zen Headbutt 2HKOs)
Celesteela
Mega Mawile (Overheat OHKOs)
Magearna
Mega Scizor
Tapu Koko
Thundurus and Thundurus-T
Tapu Bulu
Tapu Fini without water move
Tornadus-T
Mega Pinsir
Jirachi
Heatran can only Toxic it
...

Offensively, it beats core such as Toxapex/Fini + Tangrowth/Ferrothorn + Mega Scizor/Gross which are pretty good on the meta right now.

In my opinion, it has a niche over Rotom-W, but its weakness to SR is really annoying on the other hand.
I could definitely see it ranked C+/B-, what do you think ?
I threw out a nom for Rotom-Heat to like C-ish awhile ago that was decently well recieved though nothing came out of it. Rotom-Heat's defensive sets are imo pretty outclassed in the current metagme. Rotom-Heat faces a ton of competition for that Defensive Steel Check slot especially from Rotom-Wash who avoids its SR weakness and Zapdos and while neither can deal with Mega Mawile or Tapu Koko as well as Rotom-Heat they can deal with a majority of the list you just came up with along with checking some other pokemon and in Zapdos' case offering utility in defog and reliable recovery. While Rotom-Heat does boast a unique list of counters and the 4x steel resist is nice that SR weakness leaves it to being worn down super quickly and thus makes it easy to lure out for an opponent and then play around with switches since uninvested Rotom-Heat isn't that hard to switch-into.

In my experience Rotom-Heat's best set is Specs. Fire, Electric, Ice type coverage is incredibly good in this metagame as AoA Zapdos has proved and Spec's Rotom-Heat get's STAB on both its Fire and Electric moves which means it is no slouch when wallbreaking and unbelievably hard to switch into. For example:

252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 321-378 (84 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Offensive Specs Rotom-Heat nearly breaks down stall all on its own using trick to annoy Chansey on Switch-in then simply smashing Toxapex, and Skarm with Volt Switch while remaining untrappable by Duggy due to levitate. While this was a while ago but I don't think much has changed in the metagame to make my opinion of Rotom-Heat shift downwards, so I'd still like to see it ranked (probably C- or C) but its defensive set while good on paper has never worked out for me in practice, so I'd nom it on the merit of its specs set.
 
I feel Dugtrio deserves a rise on the viability rankings from A to A+. Dugtrio has some important things landorus doesn't. One thing it has that Landorus doesnt is much higher speed, sitting at a very fast 120 base speed stat. It also has the incredible ability Arena Trap, which traps any pokemon that switches into it or dugtrio switches into! However the thing that keeps dugtrio from rising to AG is it's absolutely pitiful bulk, however this can be worked around! Use a focus sash and give it reversal and stealth rock along with stone edge and earthquake, and that allows you to deal lots of damage, then when you are knocked down to one hp, you can either use a 200 bp reversal, or set up rocks before you go down. I personally believe it deserves to be raised to A+ for these reasons.
Hey there! I notice in your post that you havent given any solid reasoning why dugtrio deserves a raise, we know its stats and abilities, what I as a reader would prefer to see is how dugtrios role in the metagame makes it more viable than the rest of A rank, don't forget that Duggie has some pretty big flaws which counteract its ability to trap a pokemon. Also consider comparisons to mons which serve similar team roles, Lando and duggie are nearly completely different in terms of how they fit on a team. Take into consideration these things when making a nomination. Also, welcome to the site!
 
Celesteela doesn't really belong in A+... I think it's been there since this thread started. Let's break it down by set; there are two. Specially defensive, and autotomize are the only sets as far as I know. I have seen random other shit like substitute or whatever, but I think those two are the only truly viable sets. The first set is certainly good, but there is a reason it sees so little usage: it is easy to wear down and it doesn't do all that much except annoy opponents. Especially with the rise of Zygarde and Mawile, it struggles to leave its mark. Tapu Lele being so good at the beginning of SM is the reason I think its so high, and Tapu Lele isn't a top 3 or so mon anymore, and Celesteela should drop as a result. Other defensive steel types all have something Celesteela doesn't: hazards. Ferrothorn, Skarmory, irachi, Bronzong, etc. all have hazards which are really useful. Even Scizor has powerful priority and defog. Celesteela just has leech seed... with Tangrowth everywhere, it can knock off Celesteela's leftovers and then it is really hard to repeatedly check things. Autotomize is actually pretty cool, but it struggles to break dedicated special walls not weak to fire blast or giga drain. I honestly think it might be the better of the two sets, but it isn't really worthy of A+. It's pretty predictable, and relies on killing something with super effective fire blast or supersonic skystrike to sweep. I think Celesteela should go to A. A is not bad at all, but I think it's kind of ridiculous to pretend Celesteela is as good as (Ash) Greninja, Tapu Lele, or Zygarde.

I would also say Pinsir for A, Ferrothorn for A+ and Zygarde for S, but I will get into those later - they're kind of based off Pheromosa suspect test ladder anyways.
 
The first set is certainly good, but there is a reason it sees so little usage: it is easy to wear down and it doesn't do all that much except annoy opponents.
???
Specially Defensive Celesteela does much more than annoy opponents. It can check so much in the tier including
-Tapu Lele
-Scarf Garchomp
-Scarf Nihelego
-Scizor-Mega
-Scarf Keldeo
-Mega Pinsir
-Mega Pidgeot
-Jirachi
-Togekiss
-Magearna
-Mega Alakazam
-Defensive Landorus-Therian
-CB Bulu
-Autotomize Celesteela
-Scarf Gengar
-Scarf Greninja
-Scarf Terrakion
-Many more pokemon which will take too long to mention.
Specially Defensive Celesteela checks so much, making it a common balance Pokemon. It can also beat many Pokemon in 1v1 and sometimes just beat down teams. It possesses resists to many offensive types and can wear down its checks and counters with leech seed.
Especially with the rise of Zygarde and Mawile, it struggles to leave its mark.
How does Mawile counter Celesteela? Sure, Thunder Punch OHKOes, but you did not account the fact that Mawile hates losing a lot of HP from either Flamethrower or Leech Seed. Mawile is also forced to Thunder Punch Celesteela, allowing momentum to come towards the Celesteela player. The reason Zygarde became so much better is primarily in the hands of the Choice Band set. CB Zygarde is also incredibly easy to wear down, while Celesteela can potentially be able to stay in once to a neutral Thousand Arrows.
Tapu Lele being so good at the beginning of SM is the reason I think its so high, and Tapu Lele isn't a top 3 or so mon anymore, and Celesteela should drop as a result.
This is true, however Tapu Lele is still really good in the metagame.
Other defensive steel types all have something Celesteela doesn't: hazards.Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Jirachi, Bronzong, etc. all have hazards which are really useful. Even Scizor has powerful priority and defog.
Yes, Hazards are useful, but you will find many teams which have different hazards. Hazards are currently extremely easy to run and fit on most builds. Spdef Celesteela is primarily for some balances which really want that Leech Seed recovery.
Celesteela just has leech seed... with Tangrowth, it can knock off Celesteela's leftovers and then it is really hard to repeatedly check things.
Spdef Celesteela run Air Slash > Protect many times to hit grasses like Tangrowth. If you are not running it, staying in vs Tangrowth is merely pointless and bad.
Autotomize is actually pretty cool, but it struggles to break dedicated special walls not weak to fire blast or giga drain.
There are very few Pokemon that can actually do that. Heatran fullfills that, but it loses to Earthquake variants. Chansey fullfills that, sure, but many other special attackers like Shift Gear Magearna die to Chansey. SuperSonicSkyStrike leaves a hole in some things that try to do that.
 
Celesteela doesn't really belong in A+... I think it's been there since this thread started. Let's break it down by set; there are two. Specially defensive, and autotomize are the only sets as far as I know. I have seen random other shit like substitute or whatever, but I think those two are the only truly viable sets. The first set is certainly good, but there is a reason it sees so little usage
Week 9 | 9 |Celesteela | 4 | 13.33% | 25.00%

Week 8 | 4 | Celesteela | 10 | 33.33% | 50.00%

Week 7 | 6 | Celesteela | 6 | 20.00% | 66.67% |

It's consistently within the Top 10 in usage

it is easy to wear down and it doesn't do all that much except annoy opponents.
it beats Gren, non Z-Focus Mosa, Lando, non tpunch meta; and, is one of the best cleaners in the tier.
Someone above me gave a more complete list but these are the best mons in the tier.
Especially with the rise of Zygarde and Mawile, it struggles to leave its mark. Tapu Lele being so good at the beginning of SM is the reason I think its so high, and Tapu Lele isn't a top 3 or so mon anymore, and Celesteela should drop as a result.
Lele is still arguably Top 5 but that's not the only thing it beats
Other defensive steel types all have something Celesteela doesn't: hazards. Ferrothorn, Skarmory, irachi, Bronzong, etc. all have hazards which are really useful. Even Scizor has powerful priority and defog. Celesteela just has leech seed... with Tangrowth everywhere
double steel is literally standard at this point in the meta. And you're usually gonna be running any combination of steel types. Whether its Meta + Ferro; Scizor + Celes etc etc. Celesteelas main niche is that it's the 2nd biggest blanket check in the OU meta.
it can knock off Celesteela's leftovers and then it is really hard to repeatedly check things.
even without Leftovers it still has Leech + Protect recovery and beats Tang 1v1. Also the Autotomize sets uses Tang as set up fodder.
Autotomize is actually pretty cool, but it struggles to break dedicated special walls not weak to fire blast or giga drain. I honestly think it might be the better of the two sets, but it isn't really worthy of A+.
I mean I guess? You can't break Chansey but you beat Tox, Ferro, other Celes, SpDef rachi, Bronzong, Fini These are the most notable members in a defensive core. Ofc there are things like Zapdos and Heatran that slows it down.
It's pretty predictable, and relies on killing something with super effective fire blast or supersonic skystrike to sweep.
that's literally the point of the set...How is that a negative quality?

= A+
 
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@ The two posts above

by that logic, tapu fini should be s rank as it is #2 in usage, blanket checks almost everything (dont wanna list but i could if u want me to) , and can defog, yet its not.
askerat also said pretty much what i think of cele

Also tang beats spdef cele 1v1 so idk where ur getting that from
 

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@ The two posts above

by that logic, tapu fini should be s rank as it is #2 in usage, blanket checks almost everything (dont wanna list but i could if u want me to) , and can defog, yet its not.
askerat also said pretty much what i think of cele

Also tang beats spdef cele 1v1 so idk where ur getting that from
They weren't using Celesteela's usage as a reasoning to its ranking, the op stated that it was seeing little usage and they just used usage stats to refuse that. And Steela does beat Tang 1v1 unless you still run hp-fire>ice (ice has more usage iirc so in most scenarios steela wins)
 
@ The two posts above

by that logic, tapu fini should be s rank as it is #2 in usage, blanket checks almost everything (dont wanna list but i could if u want me to) , and can defog, yet its not.
askerat also said pretty much what i think of cele

Also tang beats spdef cele 1v1 so idk where ur getting that from
Fini also gets pressured to shit by every offensive core in the game, cannot defog on any prominent spiker (Gren always runs gunk shot, Ferro always beats it 1v1.), Loses to most Offensive Rockers (SD Lando, SD Chomp, Bloom Doom Heatran), has no recovery, faces competition from Toxapex etc etc. The Fini hype train left a long time ago. In a 1v1 situation Tang loses to Spdef Celes. This isn't accounting the fact that most Tang opt to run HP ice to consistently beat Zygarde. It also blows Tang away with Air Slash or SSSS, so under what situation does Tang beat Celes.

0 SpA Tangrowth Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 68-80 (17 - 20.1%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
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Yeah Steela is not dropping. That mon is actually one of the most difficult Pokemon to deal with defensively in the tier. The argument that it's easily worn down is irrelevant, because outside of like AV Tangrowth and Mega Venusaur nothing can reliably switch into Seeds considering that Flamethrower threatens most of the bulky Grass-types in tier, and with Protect + Lefties shenanigans it's consistently getting 20%+ every time it gets Seeds off, which is very easy for it. Unlike Fini, Steela does have semi-reliable recovery due to the fact that practically every passive mon in the tier as well as many offensive Pokemon it walls are just free Seeds for it. And yea, Lele is still one of the best balance breakers in the tier, if anything its breaker sets have swapped places with Scarf viability wise. Unless you play like a moron and blindly switch Celesteela into every strong move and spam Heavy Slam/Flamethrower instead of Seeds, then yeah of course it's going to be worn down fairly quickly, but otherwise, it's honestly extremely difficult to break due to its great typing, bulk, and decent enough offenses to where it's not that easy to set up on at all. If you don't have a dedicated answer to this thing or a strong offensive core to heavily pressure it, 9/10 you're probably going to lose to it straight up. Anything that fails to 2HKO it just gets Seeded and Protect stalled, you can't simply wear this Pokemon down. It forces you to play very aggressively in order to beat it, just because of how difficult it is to get something safely into it that's able to either reliably set up on it to bust through it despite being Seeded/Protect stalled to death, or bulky enough to where Flamethrower and Heavy Slam aren't enough to pressure them.

And then of course, you have Autotomize, which is an incredibly dangerous late-game win con due to its bulk, decent offenses, and coverage. It's incredibly hard to revenge kill it because of how fat it is, and once it nabs a kill which is pretty easy considering SuperSonic Skystrike hits hard enough to kill most offensive mon and dents fat mons enough to put them in range of coverage, it's a piece of cake to snowball from there. It's not something you rely on your Choice Scarf user or priority revenge it, because it's so god damn fat at +2, and the few Scarfers that still manage to outspeed you, don't even come close to OHKOing without heavy prior damage. This set forces you to keep your primary offensive checks to it such as Tapu Koko VERY healthy throughout the entirety of the match so it can hopefully live a hit from it, or heavily pressure it to a point where it can't set up, which is hard considering that it's not going to come out until mid late-game anyway.

But yeah, there's no way it's dropping anytime soon. Its a meta defining defensive Pokemon with very solid offensive capabilities that makes it very difficult to reliably prep for due to the fact that both sets are huge threats that when combined, don't really have fail safe answers except for maybe like Zapdos.
 

Martin

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I've got a few noms I've been sitting on.

Ferrothorn --> A+: Spikes are exceptionally good atm; whether you factor in Pheromosa's presence or not, it is impossible to deny that there is very little in terms of good hazard control for offense in the meta atm 'cause outside of Phero the viable spinners (Excadrill and Starmie) both blow chunks despite there not really being anything viable to spinblock the latter, and out of the range of available Defoggers nothing particularly strikes me either; they are all passive outside of Latios (and Kartana, if you're into that sort of thing), which just isn't really that good imho (maybe that's just me), and out of the passive ones I'd consider using on offense (basically just Zor, but people seem to still like Fini for whatever reason so I guess there is that too) one is already under immense pressure to Roost so as to be able to come in on stuff like Mega Metagross, the other has nothing to stop Ferro Seeding it and then proceeding to spam Spikes in its face whilst also being really easy to pressure and wear down, and both of them are grounded--leaving them with difficulty coming in to clear repeatedly without being pressured immensely. What makes Ferrothorn such a good Spiker is that there isn't really much that stops it Spiking a lot of the time; it pairs really well with Pokemon like Marowak, who not only spinblocks Phero extremely consistently but also can very consistently punish people's attempts to go into Mag as Ferro spikes with a free nuke, and between its SR resistance, Toxic immunity, Lefties recovery, and Seeds it is super hard to wear down, and it is an extremely solid glue for a lot of teams--being able to keep a lot of Pokemon which both common and extremely dangerous for offense (such as non-HP Fire Greninja, Ash Greninja, Tapu Koko etc.) in decent check throughout the match. All in all, meta conditions are just generally extremely favorable for Ferro and I think that it is a step above most of A atm.

Tangrowth --> A+: I have found myself being forced to actively look for reasons why Tangrowth shouldn't be on my team recently, with the reason that I've almost invariably found being that Ferrothorn is on there already. This thing is just extremely important for offense and good atm; Ash Gren, Lando-T, and Tapu Koko are freaking everywhere, and with the former and latter buttfucking a lot of offensive teams otherwise it is very aparrent to me that Tangrowth's role on offense (which Regen allows it to do with a type of consistency that Pokemon like Tapu Fini/Primarina could only dream of) is almost impossible to pass up. It is incredibly easy to just slap onto teams, and it pulls its weight in every game without exception. It's generally very flexible to the needs of the team, with it either being able to carry the bog-standard KOff+EQ+HP Ice setup or to bait out Pokemon which its team struggles with using moves like Rock Slide or HP Fire without actually really suffering from it, and in a metagame where the sheer volume of Pokemon that need checking makes pretty much every team have near-unwinnable matchups, being able to blanket a large number of some of the most threatening ones is an incredible asset to have in general to the point that I honestly think that, much like Ferro, it is just a step above basically everything else in A atm.

Rotom-Wash --> A-: Rotom-W is one of those Pokemon which really infuriates me to face; a lot of offensive teams find themselves having to fall back on things like Alolan Marowak to keep things like Tapu Koko from Volt Switching on everything, and Rotom-W just completely turns the tables on teams which do this whilst just generally having pretty favorable conditions in the meta; it blanket checks a number of important Pokemon in the meta, ranging from Metagross to TectonicTran to Greninja to Gyarados and so on and so fourth, it is easy to plug onto teams, it is immune to Spikes (which is huge for VoltTurn and BO alike) and it just generally feels extremely anti-meta both to use and to go against to the point that I think it's better than everything in B+.

I also think Mega Scizor could potentially get a raise on the basis that it is a) a better/easier to plug mega than Mega Mawile is and b) really benefits from current metagame conditions, so I'll put a tentative Mega Scizor --> A+ nom here, but I'm not as strongly sold on it as I am on my other three and think that Mawile should probably drop anyway, which would achieve much of the same.
 
I've got a few noms I've been sitting on.

Ferrothorn --> A+: Spikes are exceptionally good atm; whether you factor in Pheromosa's presence or not, it is impossible to deny that there is very little in terms of good hazard control for offense in the meta atm 'cause outside of Phero the viable spinners (Excadrill and Starmie) both blow chunks despite there not really being anything viable to spinblock the latter, and out of the range of available Defoggers nothing particularly strikes me either; they are all passive outside of Latios (and Kartana, if you're into that sort of thing), which just isn't really that good imho (maybe that's just me), and out of the passive ones I'd consider using on offense (basically just Zor, but people seem to still like Fini for whatever reason so I guess there is that too) one is already under immense pressure to Roost so as to be able to come in on stuff like Mega Metagross, the other has nothing to stop Ferro Seeding it and then proceeding to spam Spikes in its face whilst also being really easy to pressure and wear down, and both of them are grounded--leaving them with difficulty coming in to clear repeatedly without being pressured immensely. What makes Ferrothorn such a good Spiker is that there isn't really much that stops it Spiking a lot of the time; it pairs really well with Pokemon like Marowak, who not only spinblocks Phero extremely consistently but also can very consistently punish people's attempts to go into Mag as Ferro spikes with a free nuke, and between its SR resistance, Toxic immunity, Lefties recovery, and Seeds it is super hard to wear down, and it is an extremely solid glue for a lot of teams--being able to keep a lot of Pokemon which both common and extremely dangerous for offense (such as non-HP Fire Greninja, Ash Greninja, Tapu Koko etc.) in decent check throughout the match. All in all, meta conditions are just generally extremely favorable for Ferro and I think that it is a step above most of A atm.

Tangrowth --> A+: I have found myself being forced to actively look for reasons why Tangrowth shouldn't be on my team recently, with the reason that I've almost invariably found being that Ferrothorn is on there already. This thing is just extremely important for offense and good atm; Ash Gren, Lando-T, and Tapu Koko are freaking everywhere, and with the former and latter buttfucking a lot of offensive teams otherwise it is very aparrent to me that Tangrowth's role on offense (which Regen allows it to do with a type of consistency that Pokemon like Tapu Fini/Primarina could only dream of) is almost impossible to pass up. It is incredibly easy to just slap onto teams, and it pulls its weight in every game without exception. It's generally very flexible to the needs of the team, with it either being able to carry the bog-standard KOff+EQ+HP Ice setup or to bait out Pokemon which its team struggles with using moves like Rock Slide or HP Fire without actually really suffering from it, and in a metagame where the sheer volume of Pokemon that need checking makes pretty much every team have near-unwinnable matchups, being able to blanket a large number of some of the most threatening ones is an incredible asset to have in general to the point that I honestly think that, much like Ferro, it is just a step above basically everything else in A atm.

Rotom-Wash --> A-: Rotom-W is one of those Pokemon which really infuriates me to face; a lot of offensive teams find themselves having to fall back on things like Alolan Marowak to keep things like Tapu Koko from Volt Switching on everything, and Rotom-W just completely turns the tables on teams which do this whilst just generally having pretty favorable conditions in the meta; it blanket checks a number of important Pokemon in the meta, ranging from Metagross to TectonicTran to Greninja to Gyarados and so on and so fourth, it is easy to plug onto teams, it is immune to Spikes (which is huge for VoltTurn and BO alike) and it just generally feels extremely anti-meta both to use and to go against to the point that I think it's better than everything in B+.

I also think Mega Scizor could potentially get a raise on the basis that it is a) a better/easier to plug mega than Mega Mawile is and b) really benefits from current metagame conditions, so I'll put a tentative Mega Scizor --> A+ nom here, but I'm not as strongly sold on it as I am on my other three and think that Mawile should probably drop anyway, which would achieve much of the same.
Ferrothorn is good, but it really only runs one set, and you know the set is going to have spikes and leech seed, which means you just have to find out which of SR/TWave/Protect/Heavy Slam/Power Whip is going in the last two slots. And really you know it's at least going to run one of heavy slam or power whip. It just doesn't have many options. 7 moves isn't a whole lot of variance.

I think a big difference between Ferrothorn and the A+ mons is that with Ferro, you know exactly what you're getting from team preview. On the other hand, you don't know which Gren you're getting, if the Cele is SpD or Automotize, if Lele is scarf or specs or stallbreaker, or if Zygarde is SubCoil, SubDD, SubCoilDD, DD, Choice Band, hell even Choice Scarf. The unpredictability that comes with that is extremely dangerous, because wasting a turn means that Cele is Automatized or Zygarde is comfortably coiling behind its sub. A+ mons are all versatile and unpredictable, and Ferrothorn is neither of these things. I don't support a Ferro rise.

On the other hand, Tangrowth. First of all, it does have 2 viable sets it can run, and both are pretty badass. Moreover, it's unpredictable. HP Ice or HP Fire? Rock slide? Giga drain? Sludge bomb? Hell, even Leaf Storm is a viable option to fuck with Fini. All of this comes with the AV set, which is why it's so damn good on offense right now. It provides you with a blanket check as well as whatever coverage you need. Rocky helmet meanwhile shits on megagross, runs a sleep move, has leech seed for even more recovery on top of regenerator, and is all around pretty great. I support a Tang rise.
 
Ferrothorn is good, but it really only runs one set, and you know the set is going to have spikes and leech seed, which means you just have to find out which of SR/TWave/Protect/Heavy Slam/Power Whip is going in the last two slots. And really you know it's at least going to run one of heavy slam or power whip. It just doesn't have many options. 7 moves isn't a whole lot of variance.

I think a big difference between Ferrothorn and the A+ mons is that with Ferro, you know exactly what you're getting from team preview. On the other hand, you don't know which Gren you're getting, if the Cele is SpD or Automotize, if Lele is scarf or specs or stallbreaker, or if Zygarde is SubCoil, SubDD, SubCoilDD, DD, Choice Band, hell even Choice Scarf. The unpredictability that comes with that is extremely dangerous, because wasting a turn means that Cele is Automatized or Zygarde is comfortably coiling behind its sub. A+ mons are all versatile and unpredictable, and Ferrothorn is neither of these things. I don't support a Ferro rise.

On the other hand, Tangrowth. First of all, it does have 2 viable sets it can run, and both are pretty badass. Moreover, it's unpredictable. HP Ice or HP Fire? Rock slide? Giga drain? Sludge bomb? Hell, even Leaf Storm is a viable option to fuck with Fini. All of this comes with the AV set, which is why it's so damn good on offense right now. It provides you with a blanket check as well as whatever coverage you need. Rocky helmet meanwhile shits on megagross, runs a sleep move, has leech seed for even more recovery on top of regenerator, and is all around pretty great. I support a Tang rise.
It really doesn't matter that Ferro only has 1 set because it just sits and spikes on like half of the game without even caring. Rotom had one set last generation but that didn't stop it from being fantastic and such a good pivot for every possible team. Medicham had one set but it was easily the most powerful thing in the tier and was a fantastic wallbreaker. Lopunny had one set but it shat on most offensive teams and was just generally hard to switch into. It's kind of like celesteela where it just sits and leech seeds on 80% of the tier, and it doesn't really have to do damage when it's wearing down fat cores like toxapex / tangrowth with spikes, and if we assume that Phero's getting banned then you're left with no really viable spinners (starmie and drill aren't great). Again, it does not matter that you know what Ferro's gonna be doing because that never makes it any less threatening when it's more or less guaranteed to get a spike up every game. Yeah, like Martin said in his post you have like 3 defoggers, Fini just gets seeded on, Scizor is extremely pressured to be constantly healing because of the amount of mons it's supposed to check, and Latios is just not very common either. This means that Ferrothorn is just guaranteed to just sit and mindlessly spam spikes in most games while walling a lot of important threats too.
 
A+ -> A
Mega Mawile without a doubt is my favorite mega to use in the tier, and is one of my favorite mons in general. As an avid Mawile user, I don't believe it is worthy of its A+ ranking. I find it to be very close to Mega Scizor in terms of viability, but it makes more sense to drop Mawile rather than raise Scizor. First of all, Lando-T. The most dominant mon in the tier can switch in on Mawile at least once if healthy enough and threaten the OHKO with EQ and gain some free momentum if healthy enough to live a Sucker Punch. Speaking of which, Mega Mawile is extremely reliant on Sucker Punch to overcome its pitiful Sped stat. The Sucker Punch nerf has definitely affected this mon a lot. Mega Mawile is forced to run it, and Tapu Lele can flat out invalidate it. Thirdly, Mega Mawile's bulk is not great, despite having an excellent Steel/Fairy typing with the pre mega ability Intimidate, it is very underwhelming. This leads to Mega Mawile teams often built with Steel redundancy in order to actually utilize the benefits of a Steel typing, which can lead to stacking weaknesses. Mega Mawile also takes up the mega slot. Yeah, that's never been the strongest of arguments, and it's not meant to be a strong one, but it is another minor point against it. Recent metagame trends show an influx of Zygarde, which threatens out Mega Mawile and can live a +2 Sucker Punch after Rocks with 0/0 investment.

Of course, this is not to say that Mega Mawile is bad, it's far from it. Its insane Attack stat leaves it with very little switch ins, it is absolutely deadly under Trick Room, and if you can break Dugtrio's Sash, it 6-0's standard stall. Its typing is also fantastic, giving it two immunities, including an immunity to Toxic Spikes which is always appreciated. It has all the coverage it needs with Play Rough/Thunder Punch/Sucker Punch/Fire Fang/Iron Head, and it can even use Substitute and Focus Punch if it wants. Mons that supposedly resist Sucker Punch like Greninja flat out drop to it after very little chip. Sucker Punch also forces mindgames and 50/50's with the opponent, which is never a bad thing for you.

All in all, Mega Mawile is a strong choice for a member on your team, however, its flaws were understated by people (including me) when this mon was originally ranked, and it was ranked just a bit too high as a result.


C -> C+
C+ -> C

Everyone knows Starmie is bad by now and should really not be used. It has been brought a whole 0 times in SPL, and thus has gotten no results. Tentacruel, on the other hand, has been brought 3 times and won 2 of the 3. Tentacruel is much better than Starmie as a Rapid Spinner in the current meta, and the rankings should reflect this. Tentacruel is a nice check to Greninja, Keldeo, Celesteela, Mega Sableye, etc. while also providing hazard control in Rapid Spin/Being a Poison type and hazards in Toxic Spikes. It also, oddly, has a really good Speed tier for a defensive mon at base 100. Its lack of recovery and meh physical bulk definitely hurts it, but that's why I'm only nominating these two to switch spots. Hazard control is very limited in this meta. For Defog, you have Tapu Fini, Mega Scizor, Zapdos, Latias, and Latios. For Rapid Spin, you have Excadrill, Starmie, and Tentacruel. Zapdos is better without Defog, Excadrill is mediocre, Latios is mediocre. Latias and Starmie should not be used. Tentacruel is also mediocre, but its role compression, utility in Scald/Acid Spray/Haze/Knock Off, good special bulk and speed, makes it a much better choice for a Rapid Spinner than Starmie.

Tl;DR: Mega Mawile's ranking was overshot at the beginning by a subrank, and if you want a Water type Rapid Spinner, use Tentacruel and not Starmie.
 
I definitely agree with
--> A+ The most consistent spiker in the tier. An amazing pivot currently; such as, Ferro + Keldeo gives you the ability to play around both Gren forms, Ferro + Lando pivots around all coverage of the Metagross. Additionally, chipping Metagross so you can actually revenge the piece of shit properly. The lack of good hazard removers make clicking spikes extremely easy. Beating Tapi Fini and Excadrill, the most prominent removers. Also the ability to beat the more common volt-turners like Koko, Def Lando, and Rotom. there is also an extreme lack of Leech Seed switch ins. Spikes are so hilarious broken being able to get them up consistently, and often throughout the match is extremely valuable in retaining advantage vs teams that rely on taking neutral hits with bulky breakers to effectively break holes.
 
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I would rise suicune B- --> B . reason is because how difficult to beat suicune with it's vincune set. not many teams prep for it and it can pp stall most pokemon 1v1 and can be very effective with its nice defensive typing+bulk, also with the correct support like toxic spikes it can just toxic+pp stall too.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-557329442

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-557332214
I don't feel like Suicune is on the same level as stuff in B like Mamoswine or Salamence, or that it's more usefull than Bronzong, Nidoking or Mantine, who are also in B-.

The tier is already filled with bulky waters, fat grass types, and electric spam is on every other team with Tapu Koko running around. Serperior and Ferrothorn seem to be rising in usage (especially if/when Phero should get banned) and the meta in general just doesn't seem to be shifting in Suicune's favor in any way. It's nice that you're able to set up vs Celesteela I guess, but who would just let it sit there when Suicune lacks the immediate power to be threatening enough and not be forced out by another check?

As for that 2nd replay: if the opponent had played a little smarter and not let Suicune get to +6 vs Mantine, your entire team would've been swept by Serperior if he just had switched it in on the first Calm Mind. 1 Sub and the game was over.


I'm not saying it's a bad mon, since it is able to muscle through team without sufficient checks to it, but most teams do without specifically taking it into consideration. (Fini, Venu, Ferro, Tangrowth, Bulu, Toxapex,... And those are just the defensive answers)
B- rank seems just fine for it IMO.
 
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