Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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On another note: considering Heraconite/Houndoomite just got released, and Heracross is on the blacklist (for reasons I don't really understand, but that's a chat for another day) - does said blacklisting apply to Mega Heracross?

I'm not going to make a nom' or anything (because we're not supposed to), but I was just wondering if we could have that cleared up? K thanks.
No, that listing would only apply to regular Heracross. That said, based on past precedent for newly released Megas, I assume the mods would only want us to talk to them in respect to another Pokemon's viability until the new megas get a preliminary ranking, an example being "I think the viability of Scolipede has improved thanks to the release of Mega Heracross, who is typically one of the best recipients of speedpass."
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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Regular Heracross was banned because some users bandwaggoned on how it was a (shitty) stallbreaker. Needless to say it was swiftly put on the Banned Discussion list.

Much like TheTraininator stated Mega Heracross and Mega Houndoom won't be ranked for a while. Better to take discussion of it in the Mega Thread for now.

Also a couple things...
What. Volcarona runs one set with something like 2 items, both z stones (Charti isn't a thing ok), and only around 8 moves.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Charti Berry (it is merely more situational) and Bulky Volcarona is used at times provided a solid Defog user (Mew, Mega Scizor, Fini) are used alongside it. Charti and Bulky Volcarona are very threatening for teams that lack reliable answers to Volcarona and have Scarf Stone Edge Keldeo as their answer.
Standard Bisharp (Jolly or Adamant, makes no difference) beats Mew with no speed investment.
Every Mew will always run enough Speed to outrun Adamant Bisharp. This point makes absolutely no sense.
 
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Someone explain why fini is a-
Because everything about it is good; the meta just decided to dump on it so it kinda sucks at the same time. It's consistent and great at supporting its team so that makes it A worthy. It's really easy to pressure offensively, so that's why it dropped a little.
 

The Loog Noog

Banned deucer.
What. Volcarona runs one set with something like 2 items, both z stones (Charti isn't a thing ok), and only around 8 moves. In fact, three of its moves are all but guaranteed - Fire Blast (or Fiery Dance whichever), Giga Drain, and Quiver Dance. That's not versatile and that's not the reason Volc is a contender for the best sweeper in the tier.

Looking at the rest of your post...

Standard Bisharp (Jolly or Adamant, makes no difference) beats Mew with no speed investment. If you invest into speed to outspeed jolly bisharp, you're cutting your defensive investment in half. Doesn't seem worth it to me. So Bisharp comes in on your defog and gets +2 then outspeeds and KOs with knock off.

Mew's an effective check to the three Mega Ms, sure, but you can't consistently switch in to them without healing off the damage, and by the time you've healed off the damage, they'll have sent in an answer to you and you'll be forced out. At what point during this do you defog, or do anything really of note?

Mew doesn't really beat offensive lando, because offensive lando 2HKOs with EQ into SSSS. Continental crush isn't as powerful but still puts you in a dangerous spot. If you've taken any prior damage (say, from the hazards you want gone), you'll probably be 2HKOed.

You're comparing Mew to Zapdos when Zapdos is rated so highly for its roost +3 set, not its defog set. Its viability doesn't reflect how good it is at defogging.

Same goes for Scizor, which is rated for all the utility it brings (Priority, Pursuit, physical wall/best check to Megagross in the tier, etc) rather than just its roost set.

Fini does have ease defogging on mawile, because she outspeeds and resists sucker punch. She may not live to tell the tale but she'll get the job done.

B+ is plenty fine for Mew. It has a niche and performs it well enough, but doesn't do much beyond that.
  • Toxic Chansey is legitimately the only safe defensive answer to Volcarona and Volcarona can run options like Charti berry to deal with potential rkillers like stone edge Keldeo so idk why you'd say that.
  • I specifically said to invest to creep jolly Bisharp in my post, and you're more than bulky enough to take on Mega Medicham, which is the main mon that you're switching Mew into regardless and is more than worth it.
  • Mew can switch into them and soft check them by healing and burning when it gets to full, but this was a point about its defensive utility as opposed to ability as a defogger more than anything else.
  • Saying Mew checks offensive Lando was a bit of an oversight on my end and I apologize for that.
  • Scizor has a Defog set rated at A on the sets VR, and I've seen it used very often with mons like Volcarona as a defogger in the current meta, so I feel like it's more than safe to compare Mew as a defogger with it.
  • Zapdos is more or less alone the same lines, with its Defog set being ranked at A-, so I don't really get what you're trying to say here.
  • Fini can't switch into play rough at all, whereas Mew can switch into Play Rough and Cripple Mawile with Wisp, so I was just saying that Mew has a better matchup vs Rocks Mawile, which has seen some use with the induction of NJNP's hazard stacking team.
 
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Charti Berry (it is merely mkre situational)
Charti means that you're not running a z move. Without a z move and at +1, you're not consistently OHKOing any of the relevant 100+ scarfers. If you run HP Ground, Nihilego has a 62.5% chance to survive that +1 from full. No matter what you run, Terrakion is still outspeeding and OHKOing you, Charti makes no difference on that account. Garchomp isn't reliably 2HKOed at +1 by any non z moves bar HP Ice (niche and rarely used). Keldeo still 2HKOs with stone edge. The only possible exception to these is bulky volc with charti (note that bulky volc runs leftovers most of the time and with good reason). Even so, Terrak doesn't care - it's possible if it chooses rock slide that it's a 2HKO, but Bulk Volc isn't OHKOing it with anything at +1. Same thing with Nihilego, it's a 2HKO but you don't have to worry about getting OHKOed before you can do your work. It's the same with Garchomp - it 2HKOs, but it's not gonna be even 2HKOed in return. Keldeo's 2HKO is an iffy thing, and assuming giga drain it's not possible. So Bulk Volc with Charti can deal with SE ScarfKeldeo. Of course, if it knows you're running bulk volc it can always just use hydro pump.

The point is that the only way Charti Volcarona works is if it's bulky, and the only thing it works against is Keldeo. So yeah, if Keldeo frightens you so much, run Charti Bulk Volc... and suffer against basically everything else for it.

and Bulky Volcarona is used at times provided a solid Defog user (Mew, Mega Scizor, Fini) are used alongside it. Charti and Bulky Volcarona are very threatening for teams that lack reliable answers to Volcarona and have Scarf Stone Edge Keldeo as their answer.
Teams that don't have reliable answers to Volcarona get swept by Volcarona? Yeah, that happens. It's a terrifying sweeper. and my point still stands that Volcarona isn't versatile. The only differences in offensive sets are one, maybe two coverage moves and a different z stone in the item slot (or charti, whatever). Bulky is worse. It pretty much always runs Fiery Dance/QD/Roost/Giga Drain with leftovers and the bulky EV spread. If you want to be creative, you can switch some of that up, but you can do that for any mon. My point, my only point in the post that you're replying to, is that Volcarona's supposed versatility is not the reason it's the most threatening set up sweeper in the tier.

Every Mew will always run enough Speed to outrun Adamant Bisharp. This point makes absolutely no sense.
Bisharp can run Jolly. Even despite that, the point still makes sense. If Mew doesn't run speed investment, adamant Bisharp outspeeds it. Even though it usually will, it won't run enough that Jolly Bisharp is outsped - usually.

Toxic Chansey is legitimately the only safe defensive answer to Volcarona and Volcarona can run options like Charti berry to deal with potential rkillers like stone edge Keldeo so idk why you'd say that.
Toxapex, heatran, Zygarde, Nihilego all deal with it effectively if it lacks one coverage move or another. CharY can switch into giga drain and threaten a fire blast. Gyarados can tank some hits, And CharX switches into anything except HP ground with ease. AV Tyranitar fears little from it. But that's besides the point. I wasn't disputing that it was a dangerous sweeper. I wasn't disputing that it was hard to switch into (you didn't even mention that in your post). I was disputing that its versatility in movesets is the reason that it's a dangerous sweeper. That's not true, which is why I was surprised at seeing it... that's just a really bad understanding of the mon. See my above thoughts on the matter. Second paragraph in the response to Colonel M.

I specifically said to invest to creep jolly Bisharp in my post
no, you didn't. I quote "you can just outspeed and wisp standard bisharp". You gave no EV spreads, and you didn't specify adamant or jolly bisharp.

you're more than bulky enough to take on Mega Medicham, which is the main mon that you're switching Mew into regardless and is more than worth it.
Mega Medicham threatens a 2HKO with HJK after stealth rock, assuming you run enough speed investment for jolly bisharp.

Mew can switch into them and soft check them by healing and burning when it gets to full, but this was a point about its defensive utility as opposed to ability as a defogger more than anything else.
You're advocating a rise due to its defog set. If it doesn't get a chance to do that due to being immensely pressured by what it has to switch in to, then it's not a very good defogger.

Saying Mew checks offensive Lando was a bit of an oversight on my end and I apologize for that.
No problem. Still a soft check.

Scizor has a Defog set rated at A on the sets VR, and I've seen it used very often with mons like Volcarona as a defogger in the current meta, so I feel like it's more than safe to compare Mew as a defogger with it.
True, but the point is that Scizor got into A by virtue of its utility all in all. Well, really just because it's a major check to Megagross.

Zapdos is more or less alone the same lines, with its Defog set being ranked at A-, so I don't really get what you're trying to say here
A month ago, Zapdos was in B+. If you look back in this thread as to the reasons given for its rises, you will not see the defog set prominently mentioned. Zapdos is so good because it's hard as fuck to switch into fire/ice/electric coverage and harder to kill it.

Fini can't switch into play rough at all, whereas Mew can switch into Play Rough and Cripple Mawile with Wisp, so I was just saying that Mew has a better matchup vs Rocks Mawile, which has seen some use with the induction of NJNP's hazard stacking team.
I said she defogged consistently on Mawile, i.e. that she can switch into a hit from it, then outspeed and defog on the next turn. I also said that she might not live to tell the tale.
 

The Loog Noog

Banned deucer.
No, you didn't. I quote "you can just outspeed and wisp standard bisharp". You gave no EV spreads, and you didn't specify adamant or jolly bisharp.

Mega Medicham threatens a 2HKO with HJK after stealth rock, assuming you run enough speed investment for jolly bisharp.

You're advocating a rise due to its defog set. If it doesn't get a chance to do that due to being immensely pressured by what it has to switch in to, then it's not a very good defogger.

True, but the point is that Scizor got into A by virtue of its utility all in all. Well, really just because it's a major check to Megagross.

A month ago, Zapdos was in B+. If you look back in this thread as to the reasons given for its rises, you will not see the defog set prominently mentioned. Zapdos is so good because it's hard as fuck to switch into fire/ice/electric coverage and harder to kill it.

I said she defogged consistently on Mawile, i.e. that she can switch into a hit from it, then outspeed and defog on the next turn. I also said that she might not live to tell the tale.
  • Standard Bisharp is Jolly Bisharp, and I figured that the statement "you can outspeed and wisp standard bisharp" implies that you have the ability to run an EV spread to outspeed and neutralize Bisharp as a threat, which none of the other Defoggers can't do without having to deal with Sucker mindgames.
  • Medicham never 2HKOs Mew with High Jump Kick, even with adamant nature (which is the worse nature fyi).
  • It honestly doesn't get that immensely pressured by Medicham or Mega Mawile and M-Gross is just a really frustrating threat for most teams to deal with, so being able to check it is a valuable niche in itself.
  • Mew is also a decent Metagross check (pending attack raises), so I figured comparing them as Defoggers was the best way to show how Mew is different.
  • I agree that Roost + 3 attacks is Zapdos's best set, but if Zapdos has its defog set ranked at A- while Defog Mew is B+, I'm going to compare the two to show how Mew is better than or at least just as good as Zapdos.
  • Being able to cripple Maw and coming out of the situation at a decent amount of HP while Defogging is more valuable than getting off a suicide defog.
After this post I'm not gonna make any more posts on this topic because I don't want to flood the VR with an argument over a single Pokemon, but feel free to PM me if you want to talk about this in more detail.
 
about volcarona, those "safe switch-ins" you say aren't really safe for instance subcoil zygarde will not want to switch in as volcarona uses quiver dance because it can't even KO volcarona after sr if volcarona uses giga drain and and a +1 inferno overdrive takes almost half of zygardes hp
zygarde needs to be at full HP to beat volcarona reliably (and always loses to hp ice unless you get sr up)

giga drain with psychium-z psychic is redundant, anything that giga drain can hit, shattered psyche can, except for psychic resist water types (you're not beating ttar regardless)
hp ice is a good move if it's using psychium between fire blast and psychic only heatran, slowbro, greninja etc. resists both
you can opt to use hp ice to guarantee KOs on lando-t and garchomp

EDIT: word
 
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This discussion makes me wonder why people just deny sets that they don't see on the ladder lmao. Reminds me of people arguing about hp fire Metagross and saying it's not good because the other sets are more consistent. Charti Berry is definitely a thing rn and it's definitely good. What point is there denying it when multiple people tell you otherwise. Ever think that you may be wrong? It's also painfully clear you've never used it before, considering you go and do every calc wrong, which nullifies nearly the whole "Colonel M response".

Volcarona could definitely raise considering such versatility it has. It basically decides how it wants to beat your team. Stealth Rock weakness is definitely holding it back. Defoggers like Zapdos and Mew have started to gain popularity and make it easier getting it in without taking 50%. I could also see Mew raise as a wonderful blanket check but I can't speak on specifics as I haven't used it much.

I still want Zygarde to S. >.>
 
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i agree with magearna rising to A+, it's definetly more consistent then most of A mons, generally when something wants to rise to A+ people like to make some questions:
"is it versatile?"
magearna have 3 viable sets(with some lure variations that i'm not gonna explain like gigavolt havoc and all out pumeling) TR, SG and AV, the three work very different from each other, AV is a fucking bulky pivot being able to deal with a lot of special attackers in the tier like a-gren, lele, koko, alakazam and keldeo, even without a boosting item fleur cannon can nuke some things quite easy. Shift gear is a late-game cleanner with good coverage and can't be easly revanged killed by most scarfers and priority users(i know someone is gonna bring scarf duggy), but by far my favorite set and the main reason why it should rise is TR, a fucking monster that can clean late-game in the easiest way possible, once it get a spa boost(hi twinkle tackle) it's just very hard to not being forced to sac other 3 mons.
"is it as effective as other A+ mons?"
honestly i think that TR magearna is on level with the beasts in A+, it's quite easy to set-up and start snowballing , having two huge nukes in twinkle takle and fleur cannon is so nice, using along side flash cannon/tbolt + focus miss just a small number of mons can deal with it, and even some answers to it get destroyed if magearna is at +1(watch the replays), if magearna somehow fail to sweep you can use the TR to turn another slow wallbreaker into a sweeper(hi a-maro), and some people may say that "it's only 4 turns" well if you have a mosnter like magearna, 4 turns can mean 4 kills.
"what changed to the mon?"
well nothing reeeeeally changed to help it, toxapex stopped being used in BO, increase in zapdos, alakazam, ttar(mons that are easly killed),mew(the new spread takes about 76%-89% from unboosted twinkle tackle), and magearna doesn't care too much about SW like others late-game cleanners
"is it splashable?"
well... TR and SG wastes your z-stone, but they doesn't need ton of support(way less then volcarona wich is trying to rise too), and AV is very easy to slap into a team that needs an answer to strong special attackers.

i have a few replays showing her potential:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559305824 (if the enemy didn't forfeit, magearna would have killed all the 6 mons alone)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-564608672 (kill all the 6 mons, including mega scizor)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-563243605 (mega metagross and ferrothorn are good answers right? wrong)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-560170483 (here she doesn't does anything exeptional, but set-up against koko and kill 2 mons)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-560183171 (but 4 turns isn't enough to sweep)

Edit: metagross is gone magearna looses a check, the tapus get stronger, magearna can check all tapus, and AV is a nice partner to bulu in BO teams, another mons that apreciate megagross gone like latios and pinsir are magearna's food too(if magearna set up, pinsir can't do much) of course toxapex and amoongus also apreciate the ban, but the first one isn't likely to come back to BO teams and the latter isn't a good answer to Z-flash cannon.
 
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Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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RANKING UPDATE

Rises
A ---> A+
A ---> A+
B+ ---> A-
B- ---> B
C+ ---> B-

Drops
A+ ---> A
A ---> A-
A- ---> B+
B+ ---> B
B ---> B-
B ---> B-
B ---> B-
B ---> B-
B ---> B-
B- ---> C+
B- ---> C+


Pretty big update. Keep in mind, these ranking changes still reflect a metagame with Mega Metagross still in it, so some of these could change again in the near future. I'm only going to talk about the important ones because there's so many changes:

  • Tangrowth is one of the most splashable Pokemon in the tier aside from Landorus-T because of its fantastic overall bulk with AV, letting it take on a wide range of special and physical attackers. Its physically defensive set is also better for taking on Landorus-T, Mega Metagross, Zygarde, and Mawile. Both of its sets bring a lot of utility to teams be it offensively or defensively, and even in a very hazard heavy metagame, its Regenerator ability allows to consistently check what it needs to throughout the match regardless of this. Because of the massive amount of support it brings to teams and how it fits on a wide variety of builds with ease, we felt like it should be ranked with some of the best Pokemon in the metagame.
  • While Tangrowth is a top tier defensive threat, Volcarona is easily the most meta defining sweeper in the tier. Its impact on the tier is so influential because it's single handedly invalidated many of the formerly common Scarfers we've seen so much in the past such as Lele and Landorus-T, and has forced nearly every team to run a 101+ Scarfer in order to not auto lose to it. Defensively outside of Chansey, it's very shaky to check depending on its moveset. Psychium Z variants run through Pex, HP Ground prevents Heatran and Marowak from checking, HP Ice shreds Zygarde, and Charti Berry prevents Scarf Keldeo and Nihilego from revenge killing it. Even with SR being somewhat of a pain to remove, it's well worth supporting it for the sheer amount of offensive utility it brings to teams, and thus, we think it should rise because of it.
  • Mew has skyrocketed in usage because of its ability to check prominent threats in the current metagame, such as Mega Metagross, Medicham, and Mawile, among many other things because of its great bulk. It's also one of the tier's few good hazard removers. Not much else to say really, it's just really solid atm. Reuniclus has also risen for similar reasons but more for its sweeping capabilities late-game on top of its bulk.
  • Mawile and Medicham are both struggling a decent amount because of the metagame shifting heavily against them. Zapdos, Mew, RH Growth, and Defensive Landorus-T are used on almost every team atm, and because of this, its wallbreaking capabilities are less consistent because of how easy it is to pressure offensively too. Medicham suffers from the same fate but to a larger extent, mainly the influx in bulky Psychic-types, Ghost-types, and stall no longer fearing it.
  • Tapu Fini is falling more out of favor because of the rise in more consistent Defoggers such as Mew, Mega Scizor, and even Zapdos to an extent.
  • All of the other drops should be decently self-explanatory. Zard-X has a very hard time warranting a team slot because of the amount of support it requires to do anything, and it can't break/sweep that well at all. Mega Venusaur's niche in walling Greninja is basically null and void at this point because of Extrasensory being much more common, and Spikes wearing it down very fast. Mega Medicham being in the tier also doesn't help it much either, and it invites a lot of problematic Pokemon in for free. Mence is a worse Gyarados for the most part.
Mega Metagross was also removed because it is now banned.
 
Now this is probably going to get myself ripped apart in this thread, but this is how I feel. I am open to feedback and I will not be upset if it turns out I am wrong (unlike some people who spin everything around).

I believe Tapu Lele should rise to S-Rank.

Now, I think we all know why Lele is good in general. Psychic Surge instantly sets arguably the best terrain in the game and shuts down all priority and boosts Psychic moves for five turns. It has an extremely valuable Scarf set with perfect coverage for weaknesses in Psychic (Poison), Focus Blast (Steel) and Shadow Ball (Ghost). It can also run Specs, LO and Twisted Spoon for extra power if it has speed control support with it (to make up for a lack of Scarf). However, the reason I am proposing the raise now is due to MegaMeta's ban. It was arguably the best offensive counter to Lele in the metagame, and without it, there won't nearly be as many offensive counters. Sure, there is the occasional Poison or Steel type, but not too many. However, it has flaws (I am making these points so it doesn't look like I want a Lele suspect, because I don't but that's another topic). The main thing is that defensive Steel types can easily abuse common Lele sets to force them out if they aren't using Focus Blast with Scarf (as in if they are locked into the other three moves). The moves themself are also very linear and predictable, making it easy to prepare for with the right team. However, I think that it managed to get to A+ despite these flaws, and without MegaMeta constantly threatening it, I think it needs a raise. Tapu Lele is splashable onto many offensive teams, which seems to be a key characteristic of S-rank: splashability.
 

p2

Banned deucer.
since it was bound to happen, can we not jump on the lele to s bandwagon because i already know people are gonna overrate this mon to high hell, even w/ gross in this tier lele was still constantly overrated by people and i don't get why.

it's not this super splashable mon that can crush any playstyle with ease, especially compared to something like zygarde which is far more deserving of s, or hell, even volcarona is something i'd consider more threatening than lele and other goons like celes are more noteworthy threats to take into account over lele. lele has been constantly overrated to hell by this community since day 1 and i still don't understand the logic behind it, this mon isn't even near broken (i wouldn't consider it near s worthy either) in the slightest and if people actually played in the suspect meta, they'll have realised this, and even without gross it's not this massively overbearing monster it was made out to be. lele's a good mon but it just doesn't obliterate playstyles like other nuts mons like zyg / volca can. this is why i don't think its deserving of s and this shouldn't be bothered looking into until we get meta development thru wcop which is starting up soon

basically i said the same thing like 3 times but yea can this lele hype train tone it down a little because it's a bit ridiculous(not talking about this thread specifically)
 
I understand the reasoning for Mawile dropping but now that Gross is officially gone I for sure can see this thing moving back up. I know these changes just happened so maybe we should wait awhile to see how the meta shifts, but without Gross Mawile becomes probably the most splashable pokemon for your Mega Slot with its excellent typing and wallbreaking capabilities. It requires a lot less team support then some of the other options we have available to us for Megas.

This isn't really a formal nom or anything, just something I want to note for people to think of as the meta with Gross continues to develop. I used Mawile a lot over the suspect test and there isn't much downside to using it and it is consistently productive.

Edit- Part 2: And while I'm here I'll say Lele definitely should not be S ranked for a number of reasons. For one there are still so many damn steel types in the tier even without gross. The specs/stallbreaker sets are really good against fatter teams but pretty poor against offensive teams; it has trouble finding opportunities to do work due to its below average speed. The scarf set is really good vs offense but running a 95 speed scarfer in a tier with Volcarona right now is ridiculous to me unless you are running double scarf or Chansey. So I guess both sets excel vs certain playstyles but none of them are as consistent or splashable as the mons currently in S, being Ninja and Lando (and who knows maybe at some point Zygarde)
 
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Leo

after hours
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Scolipede to A-

Scolipede is the cornerstone of the infamous Baton Pass teams that were running around during the suspect ladder because of how effective they are at the moment, making for quick and effortless wins given the right matchup. BP is pretty threatening right now and a lot of teams just can't handle the combination of Necrozma+Espeon, especially when paired with Dug to remove Dark-types for Necrozma. I think this playstyle is meta-defining enough to rise Scolipede since it would be way less viable if not outright unviable without it, I don't think there's much to say about it besides fuck bp
 
Yeah I'd definitely say that Lele has gotten better, but it's not all that's it's worked up to be. Yeah sure the meta has lost it's most viable check to it, but there are still checks/counters. I'll just break this down set by set

Scarf: scarf lele is a huge threat to offense as it outspeeds a lot of stuff but people don't realize that it's signifcantly weaker due to no specs and it can't beat a lot of things 1v1.
252 SpA Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 78-94 (21.4 - 25.8%) -- 2% chance to 4HKO it can't do anything to av mage.
252 SpA Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 116-138 (38.5 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO heck even offensive mage can be a counter since it lives 2 and can ohko it with this:
252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 283-334 (100.7 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
AV tangrowth (while not a counter, can still kill a weakened lele)
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth in Psychic Terrain: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele in Psychic Terrain: 91-108 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 98% chance to 3HKO
AMuk is also good.
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 102-121 (24.6 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
240+ Atk Muk-Alola Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 308-366 (109.6 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
spdef rachi could also be good:
252 SpA Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 228+ SpD Jirachi: 98-116 (24.3 - 28.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
And yeah sure while some other mons like ferrothorn and celesteela can be bopped on paper, in practice they are really good vs it since it's choiced and forces a 50/50 on the lele user on either to stay in and kill the mon in front of it with psychic/moonblast, or go for hp fire/focus on the switch to celesteela or ferrothorn. Also let's not forget there are some scarfers that outspeed and ohko:
252 SpA Nihilego Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 270-320 (96 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 372-438 (132.3 - 155.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO not saying scarf kartana is it's best set, but it might be run more if lele becomes more common.
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 276-326 (98.2 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO scarf rachi might be more common as well.


Specs: nothing to really say about this one. There are very few switchins yeah, but let's not forget that without a scarf it just get's outspeed by tons of stuff and gets ohkoed.
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 408-484 (145.1 - 172.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO pretty obvious one.
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 372-438 (132.3 - 155.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO another obvious one.
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 276-326 (98.2 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO another one.
You get the point, specs lele might have more firepower, but will fall short vs. more offensive teams since it lacks the speed to do much. And while sure, if lele somehow gets in vs a mon that's slower than it on offense, and can get a free kill by either them sacking that mon or switching out into a sack, it can still be played around. It's basically a faster, special version of mmaw. (has few switchins, but is slow vs. offense and can get killed easily.) Also the concept of being choice locked still applies here.

Stallbreaker: Basically just like specs, with the exception that it' even slower (most run modest since it's main job is to break stall) and it can switch up it's moves. So the concept of it get's outsped by offense and get's dealt with applies here. The only real noticeable difference that i can think of off the top of my head is this:
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 255-300 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO Band zygarde can speed tie it and potentially ohko it. This relies on hax though (50% to outspeed 43.8% to ohko for a total of 21.9% chance of this happening) although it could be just 50% chance of this happening if you have rocks up.


So yeah combine this with the fact that the other tapus exist (can switch the terrain up, therefore makig lele's psychic weaker on top of the fact that it's weak to priority now) makes it not as good as everyone says it will be due to mmeta's absence. Of course I could be wrong about all of this but I think I have a good grasp of what lele will become and I'd say it's not going to become as broken as people think.


Edit: Also I second Zygarde being S, that is all.
 
Zygarde to S for sure. I don't think there has ever been a Pokemon, in at least the four generations I've been playing, who was so absurdly easy to play with. Like, never has there been a mon where it's literally true that one move is all that you'll ever need to click. Nothing but Tangrowth walls you consistently throughout a match. Literally everything else will get worn down quickly just through normal play. And it's fairly easy to pressure Tang. Zygarde is also really bulky for an offensive mon, allowing it to take hits from shit like Volc and Zard-Y easily which is nuts. It gets strong priority, it has two really solid setup moves that allow for a variety of sets given the fact that it only actually needs one offensive move to function. Dragon Dance Dragonium-Z breaks Tangrowth in half, and SubCoil Toxic wears it down. Given that Tangrowth is literally the only thing that will ever like annoy Zygarde a tiny bit, the fact that both of those sets eliminate it means there isn't much getting in its way.

What doesn't Zygarde do right now?
 
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Mega Scizor -> A-

With Metagross gone, Mega Scizor lost a lot of its reason to be used. The fact that Pokemon such as Volcarona, Heatran, Tapu Lele, Zapdos, and Toxapex exist (and all get high usage) means that it's almost never doing anything except for U-Turning around, and overall metagame conditions aren't great for it because of Greninja stacking spikes, being worn down by rocks, and the high usage of its checks and counters.
 
Although I do like using Tapu Lele, I think it shouldn't rise up to S. Its average speed tier is really it's downfall, as it usually gets 1 hit KOED by other scarf users first than to OHITKOE the enemy scarf. It's VERY noteworthy special attack and it's ability to revenge kill other mons quite reliably it the reason why it's A+, but I don't think it has gotten much better after M-Metagross to go to S so it should stay A+.

I second the nomination for Zygard to to S, it's SubcoilToxic set makes me cry and a thousand arrows has great allround coverage, and all the other reasons people said it should rise.
 
Mega Scizor -> A-

With Metagross gone, Mega Scizor lost a lot of its reason to be used. The fact that Pokemon such as Volcarona, Heatran, Tapu Lele, Zapdos, and Toxapex exist (and all get high usage) means that it's almost never doing anything except for U-Turning around, and overall metagame conditions aren't great for it because of Greninja stacking spikes, being worn down by rocks, and the high usage of its checks and counters.
I don't think Scizor got worse. I'd argue it got even better. With Metagross gone it can run more offensive sets and becomes a late game cleaner. Unlike Mawile it has a reliable priority move and better bulk. Not only that but with hazard stacking being so good Scizor just gets better, obviously because of defog. I mean the bulky swords dance set is trash but Scizor as a late game cleaner is great and as a bulky support is good too


Keep Scizor A my dudes.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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To be fair, the viability of Mega Scizor's SD set had nothing to do with Mega Meta being in the tier. Its fallen off because it has an extremely hard time sweeping when there are so many things in the tier atm that can stop it from sweeping. Heatran, Volcarona, Celesteela, Tapu Lele, SD Lando-T, Greninja, Keldeo, Toxapex, Zapdos, Mega Sableye, Marowak, etc. all of which are commonly seen threats that are on basically any team. You're better off just running it as your Defogger or with some other niche move like HP Ice (as dumb as it sounds it checks Coil Zygarde and Lando-T pretty well) or Knock Off. If it keeps its A rank, its SD set will have no impact on it.
 
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I don't think Scizor got worse. I'd argue it got even better. With Metagross gone it can run more offensive sets and becomes a late game cleaner. Unlike Mawile it has a reliable priority move and better bulk. Not only that but with hazard stacking being so good Scizor just gets better, obviously because of defog. I mean the bulky swords dance set is trash but Scizor as a late game cleaner is great and as a bulky support is good too


Keep Scizor A my dudes.
[RIP banner]
i think it's too soon to make noms based on mega meta ban, but scizor definetly got worse, his biggest niche was being the best counter to mega meta, besides that volcarona rise, zapdos rise, mew rise and tapu lele will get better in this new meta. i guess that this things and the probably drop of scizor will cause the rise of zygarde and i hope magearna too(even with volcarona rising witch is bad). also how can mega medicham drop so hard? i know mew is everywhere, but it's the only common safe switch in(cofagrigus and reuniclus are really rare, and cofagrigus doesn't want to switch on hits to much since he lacks recovery and wants to be able to late-game sweep), slowbro(mega) isn't common too and even then gets 2KO by thunder punch under eletric terrain, also mega medi is really nice in webs and BP wich helps with its speed problem.
edit: i forgot to mention that with zapdos and mew rise, a-marowak gets better and probably more common
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
I think it's incredibly strange that that half of the megas dropped this time around. I think mega sableye is super good in the mega vs mega match-up right now.

Right now I think the meta is crazy up in the air right now and might need to let skimmer for another week(new releases+ban) amazing psychic meta tho
 
I normally don't post here, but there are a few points that I'd like to share my opinions on.


Zygarde from A+ -> S

I'm honestly surprised this one hasn't happened yet. I know its been said already, but this mon is ridiculously good and straight-forward. 99% of the time you click Arrows. While yes, Tangrowth and Defensive Lando can come in and beat you, Zygarde can run toxic to cripple both mons, making them much weaker checks. It also is capable of running Dragonium-Z Outrage to blow through those two as well. With its coil set, it is able to set-up on a lot of common Pokémon like Heatran, non-HP Ice Volcarona, Ferrothorn, and Defensive Celesteela. Its DD set is a fantastic late-game cleaner thanks to its natural bulk and workable attack. Its CB set can just spam Arrows freely and hit something hard. Overall, Zygarde has a ton going for it in this meta.


Magearna from A -> A+

I definitely support this one. Magearna is an extremely versatile Pokémon that can run many different sets depending on what its team needs. Magearna's AV set is one of the best checks we have to Lele (which you know people are going to spam now that Megagross is gone). It is a great blanket check to a lot of the metagame's best specia attackers, like Tapu Koko, Greninja, and Gengar. While it lacks recovery (of course), it can easily take a hit from all of them and either hit them hard or Volt Switch out to something else that can revenge kill it. Where Magearna shines, in my Opinion, is in its OTR set. OTR Magearna is easily one of the best late game cleaners in the meta because of it's fantastic bulk and its snowballing potential thanks to Soul-Heart. It gets plenty of opportunity to set up on a ton of great Pokémon, like Lele, Koko, Greninja, Tangrowth, Keldeo, and Zapdos. It can easily get a kill to begin Snowballing thanks to the array of Z-Moves it can run. It can run specific Z-Moves to lure in and beat its "checks", like Electrium-Z for Toxapex and Celesteela, or Fightinium-Z for Ferrothorn, Heatran, and Magnezone. Shift Gear is very similar to OTR in the fact that it is an effective late game cleaner that still gets plenty of set-up opportunity.


Scizor-Mega from A -> A-

Megagross leaving really hurt this guy. While it is true that its ability to check Metagross wasn't the only reason it is viable, it did still lose its most valuable niche in the meta. I feel like the post NukedNukem made before me summed up my thoughts really well. The fact that the main offensive spiker (Prot Gren) beats it thanks to most of them running HP Fire really hurts Scizor. Also, with Volcarona, Heatran, Toxapex, and Celesteela being extremely common right now, Scizor has a hard time doing any significant in the metagame. Its offensive sets are still easily stopped by all of the mons mentioned before and more. Just because metagross left doesn't make its offensive/SD sets all of the sudden good. It even has a hard time justifying the hazard removal slot on most teams because it takes up the mega slot, and Mew often can do its job better.


Nihilego from B+ -> A-

(FYI: most, if not all of my points refer to scarf Nihilego)

This one is a bit more interesting, but I think it is a rise that this mon definitely deserves. Nihilego is a fantastic offensive check to some of the most threatening pokemon in the tier, like Volcarona, Koko, Charizard-Y (which is super slept on imo), and Tangrowth. Its speed tier allows it to outspeed +1 Volcarona and kill it with Power Gem (unless they are Charti in that case gg). Its speed tier also allows it to outspeed other scarf/+1 speed Pokémon like Salamence, Garchomp, and Tapu Lele and kill them with HP Ice/Sludge Wave/Power gem depending on the opposing mon. It has fantastic snowballing potential thanks to Beast Boost, allowing it to potentially turn games around very quickly. Last, but certainly not least, the result of the Metagross suspect helps this mon a ton, because it lost its most common offensive check. I think that Nihilego was always an underrated mon, but thanks to Metagross leaving I think it makes it much better. While yes, there are still an ass-load of steel types in OU, I think that Nihilego can still do well because of all of my previous points.

One last thing. I agree with keeping Lele at A+. I don't think that it is on the same level of effectiveness as the two S ranked mons right now. Its not as splashable as the other 2 S ranked mons either. I think UltraBallz and p2 summed up my thoughts on it pretty well. I probably sound hypocritical since I nommed Nihilego for a rise and the two mons have similar problems, but like I said, I find Nihilego just as good as the other mons in A-, whereas I just cant say the same for Lele compared to the S-Tier mons. Not a formal nom ofc, but I just wanted to share my thoughts on it. Well, that's about all I got for now.
 
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I like how no one has nominated Lele for a rise since P2's post, yet half the responses since the ban are arguing against one. P2's post was all that was needed. That and the fact that it's literally been like 6 hours since the ban so it's not like we can see how much better Lele is doing so far.

RIDDIKULUS443 is right on with ScarfNihilego and Magearna - Nihilego is a damned good rkiller for most of the sweepers in the meta, it's a check to all the tapus, and it provides a nice little wincon with beast boost. Makes complete sense that it should be one subrank below its more versatile scarf brethren, Garchomp and Keldeo. Magearna definitely should have risen in this last update and Volc going to A+ over it is a damn travesty. If you expect shift gear magearna and switch into your scarfer and it's TR, you're fucked. If you expect the vice versa, you're fucked. Meanwhile it could always be AV Magearna in which case it's going to volt switch out on your switch in and get something in that'll fuck you. Reminds me of Celesteela and Zygarde - it has an amazing defensive set (SpD, SubCoil), but if you assume that's the set and are wrong, that might be game. Oh and Soul Heart is a fucking amazing ability hello Special Moxie.

I was wrong about Charti. Didn't really consider that it would QD again on the rock type move. No one mentioned it, and I prefer Psychium when running Volc so no, I haven't ran it. I have had it used against me, and 2/3 times the player just attacked instead of QDing to +2. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ My bad. Also theirs, come to think of it. I'm sorry for my ignorance.

However, that doesn't take away from my other arguments against a Volc rise (and now my arguments for a volc drop I suppose). I'm pretty sure there's some sort of logical fallacy that warns against that. I don't know.

A+ --> A


Because it shouldn't have gone to A+ in the first place.

Look at the A+/S mons (Not including Volc). Name one of them that absolutely requires a mon to support them to function effectively. There are none. Landorus, Tangrowth, Zygarde, and Gren can be put on basically every team, and Celesteela, A-Gren, and Lele aren't far off from that virtue. Volcarona is not a mon that you can just put on any team, because that means you're filling not one, but two teamslots. Hazard Removal is always part of the package with Volc, because 99% of teams on the ladder run Stealth rock on at least one mon, and Lando, the most consistent user of it, is still sitting at its stupid usage rates. Every team including Volc is pressured from the get go by having to spend turns on defogging or spinning or otherwise keeping rocks off the field. That's kind of a big deal, and it's really being downplayed.

I've posted long and mostly still relevant (rip my charti argument) arguments on the matter.

To recap them, Volcarona is:

1. not splashable
2. not versatile
3. predictable
4. rocks weak
5. not self sufficient
6. one dimensional
7. prepared for along with other common sweepers by scarfers and priority.

The closest mon to Volcarona in A+ is A-Gren. All the others share none of those points. A-Gren is:

1. Splashable - fastest mon in tier barring a couple megas, hits hard as shit and has strong priority to boot. There's not much reason to not run this if you're not running Gren.
2. Not versatile - A-Gren has Specs with Hydro Pump (maybe surf Ig), Dark pulse, Water shuriken, and u turn (maybe ice beam). That's basically it. There's other options, but that's the bread and butter set.
3. You'd think it would be, but it has a twin, which means you can't be sure until it's used a move which mon it is. Unpredictable.
4. Nope.
5. It's pretty self sufficient - only argument against that would be needing help to transform or the removal of stuff like fini. Once it's transformed though...
6. Got him there. Ash-Gren is definitely that.
7. Ash Gren has priority himself, and has no worries about losing boosts or coming into SR again.

They're both powerful - A-Gren's Hydro Pump hits just a bit harder than +1 Volc's Fire Blast. They both need to set up. They both have a bread and butter set and little else. But Ash-Gren doesn't require another specific mon for it to work. Ash-Gren does not find trouble fitting on teams not built for it. Ash-Gren is splashable. Ash-Gren isn't weak to rocks. All of these are qualities shared by every A+/S mon. By Magearna. Even though Volc does the one thing so amazingly well, its flaws are still there. Same with Dugtrio, a mon that was suspected for how well it did its one thing. There's a running theme throughout the A+/S mons and Volc doesn't fit it.

----------

I agree with a M-Scizor drop, but I think people are downplaying its SD capabilities against offense a bit. It's bulky and has roost, which means it has a chance to get to +4. Bullet punch can sweep at +4. Even so, its main reason for its ranking just disappeared. A fall is inevitable.
 
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