Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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Honestly, and this might be a little bit overwhelming, I think a case could be made for all of Magearna, Zygarde and Greninja to all go S-rank.

I don't have the time to make a detailed proposal, but they and Lando are far and away the top 4 mons of OU and in a different league than Lele/Volc/Tang/Cele.

Also, thoughts on T-tar going from A- to B+. The rise of CB Zygarde and Fight-Z Magearna definitely hurt its viability, as do the continued dominance of M-Maw, M-Cham and M-Hera. Pursuit trapping is nice with the rise of Mew, but I would think it's still comparable to Weavile (who is also in B+) at that role.
 
There are some points that I definitely agree with you, but there are some arguments that don't exactly make sense.


This is info that we already know. I think you should use what changed in the current game to make a much better argument IMO. The problem with Swampert and pelipper is that they rely on each other. If they are not in the same team, they can't exactly be used individually, can they? There are arguments on the other pages of the thread about this, and read those to know why they made it B instead of B+ or A-. If you have a better argument, I think more of the VR council will seriously hear you out.(just some advice)

The reason why many people use Smeargle is that it is one or the most reliable and and fast stick web setters in the tier. Shuckle mental herb is too slow and Galvantula has problems in matchup vs Landorus and Zygarde(ground types)

However, Magearna to S makes quite alot of sense. It is now one of the most metagame defining threats and has become even better that before. We already may know that the ban of M-Metagross red to a rise of fairies and steel types and I am sure many of us agree that it is easily the best Offensive steel type in the tier. HP fire doesn't even do much, only ground can do something to it. Zygarde is killed by a trick room magearna and and it is 2 hit KOED by Fleur cannon. Landorus-T holds it back, but it is so splashable and powerful that it hardly matters. Magearnas defenses are very good considring it is an offensive pokemon. and can take hits like a wall. because of that it is a worthy contender for S.
Funny you should talk about not saying info we know because you did that all for your magearna to S. Listen there is a reason Zygarde didn't move and I'm willing to bet Magearna is no different. They're not bad, it's that Lando-T is so ridiculously good at everything to the point where nothing is even close to it. Lando-T is the metagame. A lot of things revolve around it and certain Pokemon just can't be used or are more useful because of its exsistence. Magearna is not at that point of domination and will never be.

If you wanna talk about recent meta changes with baton pass gone Magearna took a hit. It got worse, not better so in my opinion it should not move at all. It's no where near Lando-T

Magearna should stay A+

Also just a side note, recently most people think Greninja is the closest to S in terms of ou room votes.
 

Colonel M

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Also just a side note, recently most people think Greninja is the closest to S in terms of ou room votes.
The OU Room is also 3-6 months behind in terms of the metagame (see - people still spamming Tapu Fini like there's no tomorrow).

I'm not making any nominations, but if there was a potential second Pokemon to move up to S it would be Magearna before Greninja. Greninja is fairly tolerable in the metagame right now. Zygarde would be #3. I'd put Greninja 4th. Both Zygarde and Greninja's places are pretty debatable.
 
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bludz

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I agree Magearna should go to S.

While it isn't impossible to wall like Landorus-T, it is probably the most potent sweeper in the tier right now. The Shift Gear / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Focus Blast set with Fightinium Z can clean up nearly every offensive team after getting the right amount of chip damage on a few members, and it has a ton of opportunities to set up. This coverage is simply ridiculous for offensive teams to deal with and Soul Heart allows you to snowball so quickly. You can't even sack a mon to hazards to get a free switch - Soul Heart STILL activates in this situation. And yes some scarfers do outspeed +2 Magearna, but absolutely none of those can OHKO it from full. Magearna's got amazing bulk and defensive typing so it can set up on things like Latios easily, and it can even tank an EQ from offensive Landorus or Thousand Arrows from Zygarde in a pinch (well I guess that's limited to OTR variants). For teams that are prepared for that set, you still have to fear Flash Cannon or HP Fire variants, not to mention Electrium Z sets, notably the Shift Gear + Calm Mind set as well.

TDK's Magearna applied a ton of pressure even after being paralyzed and was able to win later on after receiving a Healing Wish
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-290433

obii's Magearna turned around a 2-4 disadvantage in this game to sweep for the win
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-291583
 
I agree Magearna should go to S.

While it isn't impossible to wall like Landorus-T, it is probably the most potent sweeper in the tier right now. The Shift Gear / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Focus Blast set with Fightinium Z can clean up nearly every offensive team after getting the right amount of chip damage on a few members, and it has a ton of opportunities to set up. This coverage is simply ridiculous for offensive teams to deal with and Soul Heart allows you to snowball so quickly. You can't even sack a mon to hazards to get a free switch - Soul Heart STILL activates in this situation. And yes some scarfers do outspeed +2 Magearna, but absolutely none of those can OHKO it from full. Magearna's got amazing bulk and defensive typing so it can set up on things like Latios easily, and it can even tank an EQ from offensive Landorus or Thousand Arrows from Zygarde in a pinch (well I guess that's limited to OTR variants). For teams that are prepared for that set, you still have to fear Flash Cannon or HP Fire variants, not to mention Electrium Z sets, notably the Shift Gear + Calm Mind set as well.

TDK's Magearna applied a ton of pressure even after being paralyzed and was able to win later on after receiving a Healing Wish
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-290433

obii's Magearna turned around a 2-4 disadvantage in this game to sweep for the win
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-291583

I can agree with this, I have offensive teams that utilize Magearna and it wins about 75% of the games that I play. I can always rely on it it to sweep a team, and its many viable sets (Trick Room, SG, AV, Specs, etc) and many coverage options makes it really hard to wall and it has a really good matchup against offense / bulky offense. Rise to S, I think it's very well deserved, as it's probably on par with Landorus-T in the current meta.
 
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Tio Chico

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Magearna To S

Magearna has an excellent type, with a lot of resistances and immunities.
His ability allows him to be a dangerous snowball for an end game sweep.
Their offensive coverage is immense and unpredictable. BoltBeam + Z-Focus, STAB-based, and still have valid options for hitting counters and checks such as HP Fire for M-Scizor and Shadow Ball for Marowak-A.
Your Stats are all solid except Speed, while Trick Room and Shift Gear correct this easily.
Assault Vest is a solid tank that does not lose offensiveness, and still has Volt Switch for momentum.
Not putting perfection in this mon, Magearna has problems with stall as it does not break Chansey and is vulnerable to Dugtrio, but stall is a distinct atm.

Zygarde To S

Okay, your Attack base is not huge, but the main factor here is the limitation on team build that Thousand Arrows causes.
Zygarde has several options of sets, SubCoil, Band, DD + Z-Outrage (which allows a powerful STAB without lock in Outrage), have features to hit checks, either Iron Tail for Tapu Bulu, Toxic or Z-Outrage to Tangrowth. Still has Extreme Speed and a good bulky, with or without investment. Also, Grassy Terrain don't affect Thousand Arrows.


Even naming Zygarde and Magearna to S, they can not be compared to Landorus-Therian.
Take all the ORAS qualities and add powerful Z-moves that have excellent coverage with your STAB Earthquake from a high Base 145 Attack.
Only two weaknesses, immunity to Spikes and Webs, Decent stats and Intimidate, often being the answer against any physical hit, immediately becoming a threat.
Landorus-T has access to an incredible varied of sets.
Defensive Pivot, where he is the most solid Stealth Rock user of the metagame, and access to U-Turn for momentum.
Landorus-T use not only HP Ice, but Protect to scout a possible Z-move from another Landorus-T, shows how this Pokémon is a massive presence in the metagame.
The metagame lacks answers to its offensive variants, be it Z-Edge or Z-Fly.
I still mention another sets; Stallbreaker (SD + Smack Down @ Earth Plate), and others not as popular as Scarf, Lead Explosion and Special / Mixed lure, to talk how Landorus-T is complete and varied, and excellent glue for any team.
Currently there is no reason not to use Landorus-T, except maybe Stall and Trick Room. Your 40%+ usage also needs to be mentioned.
Landorus-T exceeds the qualities of an OverUsed Pokémon, and deserves a suspect go to S+.
 

GMars

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Magearna To S

Magearna has an excellent type, with a lot of resistances and immunities.
His ability allows him to be a dangerous snowball for an end game sweep.
Their offensive coverage is immense and unpredictable. BoltBeam + Z-Focus, STAB-based, and still have valid options for hitting counters and checks such as HP Fire for M-Scizor and Shadow Ball for Marowak-A.
Your Stats are all solid except Speed, while Trick Room and Shift Gear correct this easily.
Assault Vest is a solid tank that does not lose offensiveness, and still has Volt Switch for momentum.
Not putting perfection in this mon, Magearna has problems with stall as it does not break Chansey and is vulnerable to Dugtrio, but stall is a distinct atm.

Zygarde To S

Okay, your Attack base is not huge, but the main factor here is the limitation on team build that Thousand Arrows causes.
Zygarde has several options of sets, SubCoil, Band, DD + Z-Outrage (which allows a powerful STAB without lock in Outrage), have features to hit checks, either Iron Tail for Tapu Bulu, Toxic or Z-Outrage to Tangrowth. Still has Extreme Speed and a good bulky, with or without investment. Also, Grassy Terrain don't affect Thousand Arrows.


Even naming Zygarde and Magearna to S, they can not be compared to Landorus-Therian.
Take all the ORAS qualities and add powerful Z-moves that have excellent coverage with your STAB Earthquake from a high Base 145 Attack.
Only two weaknesses, immunity to Spikes and Webs, Decent stats and Intimidate, often being the answer against any physical hit, immediately becoming a threat.
Landorus-T has access to an incredible varied of sets.
Defensive Pivot, where he is the most solid Stealth Rock user of the metagame, and access to U-Turn for momentum.
Landorus-T use not only HP Ice, but Protect to scout a possible Z-move from another Landorus-T, shows how this Pokémon is a massive presence in the metagame.
The metagame lacks answers to its offensive variants, be it Z-Edge or Z-Fly.
I still mention another sets; Stallbreaker (SD + Smack Down @ Earth Plate), and others not as popular as Scarf, Lead Explosion and Special / Mixed lure, to talk how Landorus-T is complete and varied, and excellent glue for any team.
Currently there is no reason not to use Landorus-T, except maybe Stall and Trick Room. Your 40%+ usage also needs to be mentioned.
Landorus-T exceeds the qualities of an OverUsed Pokémon, and deserves a suspect go to S+.

Magearna is not effective against Chansey or even Toxapex, until can get momentum but cannot break. And is vulnerable to Dugtrio, Magearna needs support agains stall.
Aight so what I don't get is you nom these mons to S without stating why they're exceptionally effective in the current metagame, you're only listing off facts about their stats and different sets without talking about specific applications. The only metagame aspect you mention with regards to magearna is that it can't break stall which is prevalent right now

I don't disagree with S for magearna, I just don't understand your noms
 

Magearna from A+ ---> S: Agree

Magearna is an incredible Pokémon in the current meta. It is an incredibly versatile Pokémon, as it has many different sets that are all incredibly viable. Its Assault Vest set is commonly running a lot of Sp. Def, which allows it to take hits from such things like Specs Gengar, Ash Gren, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, and offensive Magearna sets. Shift Gear and OTR are sets that can easily clean up late game thanks to its great power and Snowballing potential with Soul-Heart. OTR and Shift Gear sets can also run a variety of different Z-Moves to help it break through would-be checks, like Electrium Z for Celesteela and Toxapex (also hits tran hard), Fightinium Z for Heatran and Ferrothorn, Fairium Z if you want a nuke move, or even Icium Z to break through AV Tangrowth easier. Magearna also gets plenty of set-up opportunity as well vs. the likes of Tapu Lele, Latios, Ferrothorn, and Tangrowth. As stated before, even the Scarfers that can outspeed Magearna at +2, most, if not all, cannot OHKO her. Magearna can even run sets like Specs, SG + CM, or Shuca Berry OTR/Shift Gear to make it even less predictable. Overall, due to its versatility and utility it has for many teams in the current meta, as well as its incredible splashability, I agree Magearna should rise to S.

Now, for a nom that both myself and others have asked for before:


Zygarde from A+ ---> S: Agree

Zygarde is absolutely insane in the current meta. This mon has very limited switch-ins, especially to its choice band set, thanks to its incredibly spammable move in Thousand Arrows. It can run a variety of viable sets, including the aforementioned Banded set, SubCoil, DD + Z-Move, Sub + DD, or even Coil + DD. Even "checks" to Zygarde, like Defensive Lando, Tangrowth, and Tapu Bulu can be worn down or even straight up beaten by stuff like Toxic or DD + Devastating Drake. On DD or Coil sets, its combination of bulk (invested or not), and typing allows it to set up on things like Heatran, non-HP Ice/Psychium Volcarona, and Celesteela. It even has a great form of priority in Espeed, which can outprioritize stuff like Water Shuriken from Gren and Ice Shard from Weavile. Overall, Zygarde is an incredibly splashable offensive and defensive threat that heavily restricts teambuilding, which is why myself and many other people believe Zygarde should rise to S.

Also, I'm not going to write up a full nom on this since I already made a post about it, but I still believe Tornadus-T should rise to A-. If you want to see my thoughts on that, the link to that post is here. On another note, I have no opinion on a Mega Zam drop. I wouldn't be opposed to one, but I could see it staying where its at. I haven't used it enough to give a full opinion.
 
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Aight so what I don't get is you nom these mons to S without stating why they're exceptionally effective in the current metagame, you're only listing off facts about their stats and different sets without talking about specific applications. The only metagame aspect you mention with regards to magearna is that it can't break stall which is prevalent right now

I don't disagree with S for magearna, I just don't understand your noms
If magearna set-up shit gear, without mon can revenge kill.
Gren scarf hp pump dont ohko and magea ohko with tbolt
Garchomp was outspeed
Nihiligo and kartana cannot ohko
Heatran ?fightium Z
Celeestela ? Thunderborlt.
Tangrowtch ? Ice beam
A sweep of Magearna is almoste unstoppable if he good played.

Good versatility
Good bulg
Amazing movepool, thanks z move
6363635 set

Who mon can break the assault vest set ? 550 spe def + 350 hp. It's an amazing bulk.
You cannot build a team without break the variant of magearna.
Tangrowth is not a switch-in because magearna outspeed, not ohko by earth and 2hko with ice beam.
If you want check the all version of magearna, you must play magearna, chansey or snorlax assault vest (pokemon variant)
But the check of magearna... Dugtrio destroy them.
Magearna it's a S rank mon.
You cannot build if your team cannot beat magearna.

we can compare lando - T and magearna.
They have different roles but ...
Lando-T it's an amazing physical defensive --> Magearna it's an amazing specially defensive mon (amazing synergy both)
Lando-T it's an amazing wallbreak --> Magearna it's an amazing wall break (with dugtrio, it's very stupid)
Landot it's an potential late game cleaner --> Maagearna it's almoste unstoppable +1 shift gear.
...
Magearna deserved a S rank.


For zygarde, it's differant.
But, It's very dangerous but less than magearna.
 

power

uh-oh, the game in trouble
OK coming in with a couple nominations:

B -> B-
B -> B-

A- -> B+
B+ -> B

  • First two shouldn't be terribly hard to digest. Alakazam was moved to B rank on the basis of its Sash Counter Set, which was nice and good fun at the time, but has considerably waned since its release. The Rise of Fat AV Magearna really annoys it and rain's popularity makes the player wish they had a Mega Alakazam.

  • Nihilego definitely should drop too. Nihilego was supposed to get better after Mega Metagross's ban, but other fat Pokemon really annoy it just as much. Once again, the rise of Fat AV Mag does it no favors, and its utter set up bait for sg mag, even sets without Flash Cannon. Having the dubious honor of being the only Rock Type with greater than 100 base speed that cant always reliably switch into Charti Berry Volcarona and prevent a sweep is even more embarrassing, (Volcarona just eats Power Gem with +1 charti and qds again and kills with HP Ground at +2).


  • [10:39:41] ColonelM: Im torn myself [On Mega Scizor's drop]
    I'm not. Scizor is probably the most contentious of the four drops I've proposed, but I strongly believe in this drop. There's the obvious - Scizor has declined significantly since Mega Metagross's Ban. But Scizor already got its drop for that. I think Scizor needs to drop because honestly, I believe a well built team will find Scizor redundant. Scizor provides defog, but its far from reliable with the influx of offensive rocks Landorus, wisp rocks mew, etc. Ironically, despite being one of the most prominent U-Turners in Pokemon History, Scizor saps crazy momentum in the current state of the metagame. While Scizor appreciates the rise of threats such as Weavile, Scizor's matchup against top tiers is as bad as ever, only really switching into Tangrowth well and Zygarde if layers aren't up (Which are much easier to set vs Scizor than vs other defoggers like wisp and/or ice beam mew). Scizor's main problem however, what I said earlier - a well built team often finds scizor redundant. When SM OU has fantastic fat steels like Magearna, Celesteela, and even Ferrothorn, it becomes hard to justify using Scizor. It much prefers something with more offensive presence if you're using a utility hp ice set, or a better defogger like mew that checks more relevant threats like mega medicham, many magearna variants, and non-dark pulse protean greninja. Mega Scizor balance teams aren't very good either because balance is simply not very good, and Mega Scizor on bulky offense forces other momentum sapping pokemon because the Pokemon that thrash it tend to have momentum sapping checks. Mega Scizor offers some cool role compression, sure, such as checking certain threats like Bulu and Weavile and being a fat steel that defogs, but the holes it opens up in teambuilding often prompt "Can I delete Scizor and and this other Pokemon and add these two instead", too often for a Pokemon in A-.

  • Finally, this last shouldnt be too bad. Terrakion is a cool revenge killer that picks off Volcarona, but this tier is infested with rock resists that can easily take advantage of it. Being Set Up bait for sg magearna is no fun, and locking yourself into CC isnt fun either with new threats like heracross and rising pokemon like latios. Band is way cooler than scarf in not letting in landorus or god forbid zygarde in as easily, but this tier has enough breakers that are trapped by dugtrio and bandtar's role compression in checking volcarona is really preferred if you insist on a banded stone edge.

Agree with Magearna -> S
Agree with Zygarde -> S like 60%
 
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First post in a VR thread, so apologies in advance if there's any formatting and whatnot that needs to be done, but I, too, would like to echo the previous posts in saying that both Magearna and Zygarde deserve a rise to S, although many of the things I may have to say will sound redundant at this point.

Magearna is extremely flexible. It has an array of options, ranging from Shift Gear/Offensive Trick Room as a lategame cleaner (amplified by its incredible ability) to AV to function as Lando's special counterpart in a good VoltTurn core (in the earlier stages of the SuMo OU meta one could've even argued that this alone would be enough to make it S) to all sorts of different Z-moves to take on would-be checks and pull through. It boasts an incredible defensive typing in Steel/Fairy, and its bulk - good enough to check the likes of the Greninjas and plenty of other threats - bolsters this further. And it makes dealing with it somewhat of a guessing game; predicting its coverage options or set incorrectly could result in it snowballing very quickly and turns answers to an unboosted Magearna into shaky checks at best. Magearna has the versatility, splashability, and effectiveness to warrant its rise to S.

Zygarde was something I was initially a bit more unsure of. And had I not given the Banded set a go I would've thoroughly disagreed with a nomination to S. But, in reality, this thing doesn't have a whole lot of decent switchins, and, like Magearna and Landorus, it has an array of different options to allow it to muscle past checks and counters to other sets. Garchomp in older gens proved that Ground+Dragon was a formidable STAB combination, and while Zygarde lacks much of Chomp's utility and initial power, its superior bulk, access to incredible priority in ESpeed, and, most importantly, a Ground STAB with absolutely none of the Ground drawbacks really give this thing an edge over its old rival. Choiced Zygarde variants seldom have to make risky predictions as other Choice users do because there's almost no reason not to hit Thousand Arrows. DD variants - particularly Z-move ones - can muscle their way past things like Tangrowth and other BO staples. Coil variants have good matchups against many different Stall teams. And predicting a Zygarde set incorrectly when trying to deal with it can, like Magearna or many Lando variants, result in a core being shattered, a wall being irreparably damaged, or an entire team being swept.

TL;DR Version: Though not quite at the level of Lando (S+ would still be a stretch for it, that being said) in terms of versatility, centralization, and splashability, Magearna and Zygarde are just flexible enough and threatening enough to be considered for sharing S-rank with it. They fulfill many roles on a variety of team archetypes extremely well and are taken into account just as often as Lando is when teambuilding.
 
Zygarde to S definitely guaranteed. The ONLY pokemon that can repeteadly switch on Thouspam Arrows in OU is Tangrowth. Nothing else can take more than two of this damn move due to either being cleanly 2HKOed ar worst or lacking any kind of reliable recovery. It's more spammable than Scald, Knock Off and U-turn COMBINED.
 
Zygarde to S rank-----> Agree

This mon has very few switch ins,especially the choice band set,the only thing that can switch into Tounsand Arrows is Tang,and even then Tang fears Outrage.
After that we have the DDance set with a Z-Crystal.This set is a very nice nuke to go pass defensive threats such Tapu Fini,Tang and Ferro.Nothing more needs to be mensionad here
And last but not least we have SubCoil set,an very cool late game sweeper and a contribution against Stall on offensive and balanced teams.The 240 evs make 101 HP subs,turning Chansey into a setup bait,and also more passive pokémon will have trouble with this set

Magearna to S rank ----->Agree

Magearna can do lots of things that make it great,such as:

1: Defeat special attackers.The rise of it's fat Assault Vest combined with a 115 base Spdef make's it really hard to take down by Special Attacks.Some special attackers that Magearna beats are:Tapu Lele,Mega Zam,Serperior,Keldeo,Gengar and Nihilego

2: Shift Gear. This set can be used for better match up against scarfers like Dugtrio,Chomp and Keldeo,as it can outspeed and kill than,leanding to a big snowball process against the other player

3: Trick Room. On Trick room,Magearna outspeeds a majority of the metagame,allowing it to wrack havoc on the opposing team with it's power,bulk and unpredictability.It can also set trick room for teammates like Alola Wack and Mega Wale


Edit: Grassy Terrain does NOT weakens Thousand Arrows
 
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Indigo Plateau

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Zygarde to S definitely guaranteed. The ONLY pokemon that can repeteadly switch on Thouspam Arrows in OU is Tangrowth. Nothing else can take more than two of this damn move due to either being cleanly 2HKOed ar worst or lacking any kind of reliable recovery. It's more spammable than Scald, Knock Off and U-turn COMBINED.
Bold Clef isn't 2hkod and has softboiled.

A problem I have if Magearna and Zygarde were to rise to S is that they're not really on Lando's level, but they're also better than the rest of A+ (with protean Greninja following). I feel Magearna is the closest there is due to its sheer versatility and how easily it can screw teams over - you can predict shift gear instead of TR and it can quickly snowball, as well as its ability to run different z moves (a lot of things have already been stated). I can't see them BOTH rising, but I do see Magearna as more of a possibility.

EDIT @ below: I would definitely say Celesteela is good enough compared to others in A+ rank. It's extremely annoying with leech seed -+ protect, has excellent bulk and typing, can hit things that usually trouble bulkier steels, and can also be a surprising sweeper with automotize (both special and physical - physical has worked for me before).
 
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A problem I have if Magearna and Zygarde were to rise to S is that they're not really on Lando's level, but they're also better than the rest of A+
I'm mostly just a lurker on this thread nowadays but I wanted to give my two-sense on this. I can remember a time last gen when Lando-T was in A+ (crazy, I know) and was being nommed for S rank. At the time, the only other mon in S rank was Clefable, the pink God of Gen 6 himself. Since Clef was usually held to a pretty high pedestal, many players were against this nom, as we thought that putting Lando in S would be saying that he was just as good as Clef, which he wasn't (in our minds, at least). Still, the nom got pushed through, with the justification being that while Lando-T wasn't as good as Clef, he was still a step ahead of every pokemon in A+, and shaped the meta so much that he deserved his place in S. (If I'm remembering all of this completely ass backwards please call the retirement home my senile ass must've escaped from)

While I can't say I know a ton about Zygarde or Magearna and how they fare in the meta (I don't really play OU anymore), and it does make sense to compare a pokemon being nommed to a rank to the pokemon that already occupy it, precedent would be against that kind of argument. I wouldn't say that Celesteela is particuarly powerful or stands out conpared to other behemoths in A+ like the Grens and Zygarde, but she's such a step ahead of the mons in A that I'd feel better ranking her where she seems underpowered relative to the rest of the rank than overpowered.
 
To be honest, I could get behind expanding the rankings to include S+, the reason being that Lando is head and shoulders above the rest of the tier and his dominance is likely to never be challenged. Having a separate rank just for Lando makes sense in my mind, but even if we don't make one that doesn't mean Zyg Mage and Gren can't be promoted.

Then again, S in my mind represents mons that are so good they "broke" the scale, and while the aforementioned Pokémon are better than the other A+ rank mons they certainly aren't impossible better than them like Lando is.
 
Zygarde to S rank-----> Agree

This mon has very few switch ins,especially the choice band set,the only thing that can switch into Tounsand Arrows is Tang,and even then Tang fears Outrage.
After that we have the DDance set with a Z-Crystal.This set is a very nice nuke to go pass defensive threats such Tapu Fini,Tang and Ferro.Nothing more needs to be mensionad here
And last but not least we have SubCoil set,an very cool late game sweeper and a contribution against Stall on offensive and balanced teams.The 240 evs make 101 HP subs,turning Chansey into a setup bait,and also more passive pokémon will have trouble with this set

Magearna to S rank ----->Agree

Magearna can do lots of things that make it great,such as:

1: Defeat special attackers.The rise of it's fat Assault Vest combined with a 115 base Spdef make's it really hard to take down by Special Attacks.Some special attackers that Magearna beats are:Tapu Lele,Mega Zam,Serperior,Keldeo,Gengar and Nihilego

2: Shift Gear. This set can be used for better match up against scarfers like Dugtrio,Chomp and Keldeo,as it can outspeed and kill than,leanding to a big snowball process against the other player

3: Trick Room. On Trick room,Magearna outspeeds a majority of the metagame,allowing it to wrack havoc on the opposing team with it's power,bulk and unpredictability.It can also set trick room for teammates like Alola Wack and Mega Wale
Tapu Bulu? tanks thousand arrows, also it's a fairy so immune to outrage. Basically shuts Zygarde down unless it has Toxic

IMO the tiers are fine as they are re. Magearna and Zygarde. They are both being bandwagoned by lots of users (including me a few pages ago because I hate facing Zygarde) but there is lots of counterpley to both and their options are more limited than Landorus.

They are arguably the best A+ pokemon but the tiers are not supposed to reflect iron-clad categorisations matching strict criteria, but more reflect how usage is going in the tier at the minute. There's always gonna be some variation within tiers. All pokemon in A+/A are very good but their viability has fluctuated depending on meta trends and there is clear counterplay for most of them. For example offensive Magearna is invalidated by chansey and checked well by opposing Magearna, Ferrothron, Heatran, etc., and risks letting Volcarona in for a sweep depending on your coverage, while defensive Magearna is mostly blocked or revenge killed by ground types (volt switch is far less reliable than U-turn). Meanwhile Zygarde's sudden hyper usage, and especially the dominance of Choice Band which locks it into Thousand Arrows, resulted in stuff like Tapu Bulu and Tangrowth getting even more usage and severely cutting it short.

Landorus-T has been the only pokemon that's consistently deserved S ranking. It adapts to all meta trends and it's movepool, stats and ability make it just unmatched in its customisability--it doesn't just have multiple strong sets like Magearna and Zygarde that benefit from meta trends; it can be basically put on any team and expected to perform really well. Is a good doggo
 
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Zygarde to S definitely guaranteed. The ONLY pokemon that can repeteadly switch on Thouspam Arrows in OU is Tangrowth. Nothing else can take more than two of this damn move due to either being cleanly 2HKOed ar worst or lacking any kind of reliable recovery. It's more spammable than Scald, Knock Off and U-turn COMBINED.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 105-125 (37.3 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Bulu gets 3HKOed at worst from Thousand Arrows at +1 from the DD offensive set even if Grassy Terrain doesn't weaken TArrows and can Horn Leech up with the CB set or set up with the SD set to easily gain all the HP it lost. Sure, Iron Tail is a thing, but the three attacks it gets (Thousand Arrows, Outrage, ESpeed) are too valuable to give up for one mon. That being said, Zygarde's amount of switchins is still hilariously low and it still should go to S. Basically lemme sum it up for you, in short, as everyone else has already stated my thoughts:

Celesteela and other flying types: lol Zygarde where's your sweep now

Zygarde: Bitch, get down here. *Thousand Arrows hits flying mons*

Flying types: WELL THEN



Magearna should also go to S. Basically, its a versatile pivot or sweeper with many options that allow it to decimate normal checks or wall common mons in the meta like Lele or Ash Gren. Shift Gear, Trick Room, and AV are all amazing sets that can turn games on their heads, with mag being able to force out many threats and attack/setup on any switchin due to its bulk and coverage. Shift Gear easily sweeps unprepared teams due to Mag's generally perfect coverage in BoltBeam combined with moves like Focus Blast and Fleur Cannon, Trick Room allows Magearna to become a bulky sweeper that takes hits and doles them out in equal measures, and completely stopping fast sweepers like Ash Gren, RP Lando, and SD Garchomp among others, and AV is the best bulky pivot in the meta aside from Lando (btw, great voltturn core lol) that takes hits and while its not as powerful as Trick Room, can still beat the dookie out of teams due to still having good power and Soul-Heart boosts if you acquire any. Oh by the way, Soul-Heart is an incredible ability that makes Magearna's sweep even easier and reduces the amount of switchins it has. Sorry if this is redundant :D
 
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RANKING UPDATE

Rises
A+ ---> S
A- ---> A
Added to B+
Added to B

Drops
A+ ---> A
B ---> B-
C- ---> Unranked


  • Magearna was discussed extensively by the council as well as many good posts on here about moving Magearna to S rank, and we ultimately decided that its recent influence on the tier has been more of any Pokemon in A+ thus far. With Mega Metagross gone, Magearna rapidly became one of the best Pokemon, because it lost one of its best/consistent offensive checks to it in the tier. Its sweeping capabilities are unparalleled, surpassing even that of Volcarona. After a Shift Gear boost/Trick Room, very few Pokemon can safely revenge kill it thanks to its great typing and bulk, and its coverage options are very plentiful, which limits what can effectively check it. Between Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast, Flash Cannon, Fleur Cannon, and HP Fire, it can run many combination of moves depending on your team structure as well as like four possible Z crystals. Its Assault Vest set is also an insanely good glue that is great for checking a plethora of special attackers, such as Tapu Lele, Koko, both Greninjas, Latios, Gengar, and Mega Zam. While it's not as common as Lando-T, we felt like both share similar traits that make them the most defining Pokemon in the current metagame; with Lando-T being extremely splashable and practically unwallable defensively, while Magearna is one of the most versatile and deadly sweepers in the tier that also provides valuable defensive utility to many teams.
  • Mew continues to be one of the most splashable defensive Pokemon in the tier thanks to its massive amounts of utility and the ability to keep dangerous threats in check, such as Mega Mawile, Zygarde, Mega Medicham, most Protean Greninjas, and Mega T-tar. It's one of the best hazard removers in the tier that can fit on a variety of bulky offensive builds.
  • Mega Tyranitar has surprisingly proven to be a very deadly sweeper thanks to its combination of good coverage, high Attack, and insane bulk, which makes it insanely difficult to revenge kill. To put it into perspective, Scarf Garchomp's EQ only does around 79% MAX, and Ice Punch can obviously KO back. So despite its lackluster Speed stat even after a boost, the only relevant Scarfers that can reliably revenge kill it are Keldeo and Terrakion. On top of this, it also possess the same defensive utility as its normal counterpart, such as keeping Volcarona, Zapdos, and Marowak in check.
  • Mega Manectric on paper is a lot more dangerous than how it actually performs. While it forces team to not rely solely on Ferrothorn as their Electric check, most team structures have remained unchanged. AV Tangrowth can still take it on quite comfortably despite its Fire coverage, it's complete deadweight vs stall, CB T-tar is rising in popularity, and Tapu Koko is still better overall despite its lack of a Fire move. As expected, most teams would rather just use Tapu Koko + a better mega. Regardless, Manectric still has its perks, and still has match ups where it can an extreme nuisance to deal with, and outspeeding Ash Greninja is definitely a useful perk over Koko.
  • Tapu Lele dropped because the metagame has been pretty unfavorable to it despite people's expectations. Mega Metagross was replaced by Magearna as the best Steel-type in the tier, which is a MUCH more reliable answer to Lele in general, and Celesteela is also really good as well, which hurts it quite a bit. The influx in T-tar and Weavile also pressure the ever living fuck out of its Choiced sets, so it is now pressured to not click Psychic STAB as much.
  • Manaphy sucks because its main niche was on BP teams and now that is banned, and there are a ton of better balance breakers in the tier atm.
  • Blissey dropped because fuck TDK tbh. (Pyukumuku stall is dead)
Discussion Points

B ---> B+
B- ---> B
Thoughts on initial placement
Thoughts on initial placement
 
I don't really have anything to say about the discussion points right now, so let me give my nomination.

Amoonguss A- ---> B+ / B

Amoonguss has fallen from grace imo. iirc it stayed A- due to it checking Greninja. However, Gren has since dropped off a little bit, rendering that null and void, as it is no longer considered the S-tier monster it used to be. Also, the only Fairy imo that is still feeling the benefits of MegaMeta's ban is Magearna, who is immune to Poison moves. As a defensive Grass-type, it really only has Spore over AV Tang. Even then, it is way too passive to make use of those turns asleep on its own. The Guardian Deities have not benefitted as much as people thought they would have, even Tapu Lele. with their declining usage, Amoonguss needs to drop.
 
A+ ---> S
This just has to happen. If Magearna is S-rank, Zygarde is too. Dragon Dance sets are now more common, due to its outstanding bulk allowing it to set up easily. Choice Band was first seen on its dog form, but recently, Choice Band Zygarde has become one of the most splashable wallbreakers in the history of OU, because of its superior bulk. Overall, all of these factors combined just make Zygarde one of the best, if not the best Pokemon in OU.
 
Surprised that rain didn't rose to A-, well, I agree with suicune rising, it checks/counter/annoy a lot of mons dominant in the meta, non t-bolt magearna, grens, celesteela,volc,mew, keldeo, all are set-up baits, he is very annoying to deal with, since just a few of physicall wallbreakers can OKO it, meaning that a burn can happen and then you need another way of beating it, PP stalling is very anothying too, specially when you have a locked mon, sub+protect is also very good against TR and Rain, cune appreciates the rise in Rain and drop of lele, and of course the fact that lando-t is on almost every team.
 
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