Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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Well poison is actually better than toxic!

Toxic only pays of if mon stays in at least 4 turns and even then it is really small advantage of 6,25%. Staying 5 turn in happens very, very raerly and skilled players tends to switch out if their tank is poisoned (especially if it is regenerator such as tangrowth, slowbro). Toxic should never be main way of dealing with tanks, more of way of putting pressure, because poisoned tanks have many turns to shuffle your team around/set up/defog rocks deal damage etc.
Toxic damage doubles each turn, not just adding 6.25% each turn.
 
A- ---> A

Charizard Y is hands down one of the best, if not the best mega right now. It straight up forces a kill versus nearly all common defensive cores found on offense, notably those with Mew, Celesteela, Landorus, Magearna and/or Tangrowth and can easily pressure Pokemon that can take a hit such as Zygarde and Garchomp just by clicking Fire-type move or with potential HP Ice coverage. The WCoP match with blunder vs reyscarface shows that if Zard Y has a decent matchup, it can get a kill every time it comes in. Dugtrio even prevents blunder from risking Focus Blast on Heatran later in the game.

In addition to its breaking power, the current rise of Dugtrio makes Charizard Y that much better. Z-Crystal Dugtrio traps everything found on fatter teams that Charizard Y can't break past, which is most notably Chansey and Toxapex. After one or two of these have been dealt with, Charizard Y can proceed to get a kill every time it comes in. These two WCoP matches demonstrate how devastating Dugtrio + Zard Y can be versus stall. welliou vs starmaster and TDK vs ict (note that Screech Dugtrio should have been able to cleanly trap Chansey without the crit).

Lastly, Zard Y isn't even that hard to support right now despite its 4x weakness to rocks because of Mew's unprecedented Defog support. Zard Y + Mew is another extremely common core seen in WCoP whenever Zard Y is used, and for good reason. Mew is straight up the best Defogger in the tier right now, and it pairs quite nicely with Zard Y. It reliably pressures Zygarde, Medicham, and Mawile, all of which offensively pressure Zard. If Volcarona sits at A+ I see no reason that Zard Y shouldn't sit at A, as Zard doesn't require a boost to do its job, and does not need to worry nearly as much about getting revenge killed.
 

Gary

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Yes, Marshadow is out. Please hold off on any discussion about it for at least a week (assuming it lasts that long). This is especially important because Marshadow's impact on the meta is probably going to be detrimental. Thanks.

EDIT: Or just ignore what I said and discuss it anyway. I say again, please no discussion on it. It's wayyyyy too early.
 
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I have hard time believing that Dragalge is unranked. This mon does really well in this meta, deserving C+ or even higher.

Since metagross ban everything went well for this mon. Gengar, nihilego, and other posion types went down in usage, leaving much room for Tspikes support. Volcarona is not used as much so you don't have to be afraid about Z-Psychic. Most spammed mons like Zaptos, Koko, ZardY, Bulu, Keldeo are beaten by it. Rain is more popular so another thing able to come on specs hydro is needed. Dragalge is suprisingly good right now.

Tspikes are godlike right now. Well played can poison Mew, Fini, Tangrowth and bring them down to the point the cannot wall anything (tangrowth takes almost from scarf keldeo if rocks and tspikes are up). Since half of meta has bad matchup against dragalge it is to lay them down.

And now some replays showing how much support gives and how good dragalge is:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-598473284
Thanks to Tspikes Heracross is able to murder half of enemy's team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-598468323
After ground types are dead, dragalge almost deals with rest of rain team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-598453890
Same deal. Excadrill dies, Tyranitar dies and suddenly nothing can deal damage to Dragalge.

This mon is way too solid to be unranked.
I'm not really feeling it, yes the replays you provided are quite convincing, but does that really justify it being ranked? Chansey walls it to hell and back and while yes, it does have a lot of coverage moves what your missing is that it loses alot of power if it's not using stabs.

And wouldn't Toxapex be a better Toxic Spiker? It's more bulky, has reliable recovery, regenerator and scald.

And lol Drag is only faster then it by like 9 points.

If it was to be ranked then I feel C- would be a nice place for it.
 
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I feel like Drag might be solid enough to be ranked, but no higher than C- or C. Good special bulk, sneakily powerful, and a solid typing. It's got some truly miserable matchups towards the top of the usage chart, which is the biggest knock against it, but it's solid otherwise. Not as good as Toxapex as a toxic spiker, but all the teams in the replays were super electric weak, and Drag addresses that, so he's not totally without a niche.
 

C- to Unranked

This is a Pokemon that everyone's forgot existed since Day 1. Many Pokemon have been unranked from the VR over the month, yet Victini has always stayed on the rankings. I just don't understand what niche this Pokemon has. Take a look at the rest of C-. Bronzong counters the same things that Celesteela and Magearna counter and it has Stealth Rock and Trick Room. Mandibuzz simply walls a lot of Pokemon with its good bulk and typing, Defogs pretty easily, and can be annoyingly hard to kill. Talonflame's Gale Wings gives it a very powerful priority attack allowing it to check Volcarona without needing a Choice item. Uxie can run both Stealth Rock and Trick Room in the same moveset.

What does Victini have to offer? A powerful 180 attack known as V-create that's boosted further by Choice Band or Firium Z. However, V-create lowers Victini's Speed and Defenses, meaning it can only get one kill before literally any Pokemon that isn't a Grass or Steel type can come in to kill it back. You can run Mental Herb to ignore the drops, but that gives up vital power. You can run Firium Z to ignore the drops while keeping the power, but there are just too many Pokemon that can make that one-time-use useless. Take your pick. Landorus-Therian, Tyranitar, Tyranitar-Mega, Heatran, Zygarde, Garchomp are all hard counters to Victini that are dominant in the metagame and they render Victini useless. In fact, all of these Pokemon counter all variants of Victini. Tell me, when was the last time you put Victini on your team? Never, right? That's what I thought. That's because it's terrible and it doesn't have a proper function. It fails to do its job all the time. There's no reason to add Victini to your team as opposed to other wallbreakers.
 
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C- to Unranked

This is a Pokemon that everyone's forgot existed since Day 1. Many Pokemon have been unranked from the VR over the month, yet Victini has always stayed on the rankings. I just don't understand what niche this Pokemon has. Take a look at the rest of C-. Bronzong counters the same things that Celesteela and Magearna counter and it has Stealth Rock and Trick Room. Mandibuzz simply walls a lot of Pokemon with its good bulk and typing, Defogs pretty easily, and can be annoyingly hard to kill. Talonflame's Gale Wings gives it a very powerful priority attack allowing it to check Volcarona without needing a Choice item. Uxie can run both Stealth Rock and Trick Room in the same moveset.

What does Victini have to offer? A powerful 180 attack known as V-create that's boosted further by Choice Band or Firium Z. However, V-create lowers Victini's Speed and Defenses by 2, meaning it can only get one kill before literally any Pokemon that isn't a Grass or Steel type can come in to kill it back. You can run Mental Herb to ignore the drops, but that gives up vital power. You can run Firium Z to ignore the drops while keeping the power, but there are just too many Pokemon that can make that one-time-use useless. Take your pick. Landorus-Therian, Tyranitar, Tyranitar-Mega, Heatran, Zygarde, Garchomp are all hard counters to Victini that are dominant in the metagame and they render Victini useless. In fact, all of these Pokemon counter all variants of Victini. Tell me, when was the last time you put Victini on your team? Never, right? That's what I thought. That's because it's terrible and it doesn't have a proper function. It fails to do its job all the time. There's no reason to add Victini to your team as opposed to other wallbreakers.
It has decent rounded stats.... V create drops attack and defenses by 1 stage and if you choice scarf it it can be a decent revenge killer. It can actually kill Volcarona even if it's at plus 2 (if full). You can't really compare Bronzong to Magearna since they are completely different. Bronzong is utility, Magearna is a huge offensive threat...Shift Gear, Offensive Trick Room and even as utility with Assault Vest it does good dmg and can act as a slow Volt Switch pivot. Celesteela can also be an offensive threat as well with the Auto-sets and it's an amazing (annoying wall) if you unprepared for it...trolling with leech seed and toxic stall. Great overall stats and beast boost to reward defeats.
 
keep Victini ranked cause it's a pretty decent breaker that can pick apart the Celes / Grass / Water cores and teams of similar nature. Can run lure sets for lando, tran and shit. Not a great pokemon but it's not "bad" in the most extreme sense. (Mega Beedrill)

Idk why I would ever build a team then look at it and say "hm....this shit needs dragalge" I realize there is stuff like Talon ranked but most of the lower ranked mons have some way to annoy the more common builds of teams. (SD zbird talon, Kyurem on stall, Pidge vs Stall etc) Drag is just another pokemon that lets in Celes and gives Magearna free set up.
 
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Colonel M

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Thapex A -> A+

It's time to talk about our lord and savior in OU.

Toxapex's usage in balance and stall teams still remains phenomenal. Its great typing makes it a check to arguably the second best Mega (though arguably first IMO), Charizard Y, in the tier. Furthermore, it is great at stopping the majority of Volcaronas, Greninja, amongst other threats. There are two big things that help it tremendously, though - Toxic Spikes and the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes. Even though Dragalge to C+ is quite the lol nomination, Seth_ is correct that Toxic Spikes are damn powerful against a lot of teams in the tier and it has shown in many WCoP games. Punishing Tangrowth, Mew, Alomomola, Suicune, and many other grounded defensive Pokemon make it easier to net 2HKOes with Stealth Rock on the field as well. Furthermore, normal Poison still is not bad to punish some offensive Pokemon since it saps health faster than burns and is generally more effective against Special Attackers.

Going back to WCoP Toxapex has seen a fair amount of usage in a lot of teams and holds a rather impressive win rate as well (~63% win rate). Being that it is a Pokemon that still is a major defensive bully while punishing defensive Pokemon with Toxic (Spikes) remains an impressive feat. Considering Pokemon such as VinCune are creeping up in usage Toxapex rise just seems very justified.

If you do disagree with Toxapex rise I do feel Tangrowth and Toxapex should reside in the same tier. Even though I will agree that Mojonbo is still a solid defensive Pokemon for a lot of teams they both are about equal in terms of being solid defensive threats (against different threats at times of course) with Toxapex being a bit easier to keep healthy thanks to Recover and having marginally more utility with Toxic Spikes, Haze, and absorbing Toxic Spikes. Knock Off I admit is powerful utility, though, so bear in mind I am not trying to discredit Tangrowth completely.

As an aside I may consider arguing a few other bulky Water-types up as well, but for now this post will mainly speak on Toxapex.

Bless Thapex!
 
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A -> A+: Agree

This thing is to balance and especially stall what Tangrowth is to bulky offense: a blanket check/counter to virtually every other top threat in the meta. It provides relatively unique utility in Toxic Spikes while being able to counteract Toxic Spikes itself, it has a fantastic typing that gives it several key resistances, and, quite frankly, this thing literally never dies unless it gets hit by the fattest of Earthquakes and STAB Psychics because it's blessed with extremely consistent and reliable recovery and a fantastic ability in Regenerator. With stall being as good as it is (not taking Marshadow or anything it may be able to do to stall into account, of course) I can't see one of its staples - especially one that can fit on other team archetypes - not being amidst the likes of Zygarde, Celesteela, the Greninjas, and OU's other top-tier threats.


A- -> A: Agree

If it wasn't against the VR policy I'd even make a case for A+. Zard Y is, simply put, an incredible Mega: only the special walls you'd find on a standard stall team have any business even attempting to stomach its Drought-boosted Fire Blast. As a wallbreaker it boasts a good speed tier that allows it to outpace the likes of unboosted Magearna and Lando and standard Mew and packs enough punch to literally erase Tangrowth from existence. And even though it has that 4x Stealth Rock weakness the amount of offensive pressure this thing can put on most teams more than makes up for it. I'd absolutely compare it to the likes of Pinsir and Mawile since this thing tears gaping holes in an unprepared team just as well as they do. Putting Zard Y in A would very much reflect its status as one of the best currently-available megas in OU.


A -> A+: Agree

I had to give Mew a test drive before formulating some kind of an opinion regarding its placement, but after giving this thing a go in a few matches I can completely agree that it should at least be considered for A+. In a tier where I've been finding myself really struggling to find something splashable that could remove hazards this thing is nothing short of perfect in that regard: its bulk lets it take on an array of Zygarde sets at the very least and it can still manage to stall out a good portion of the tier. It's fast enough to get a Will-o-Wisp off - accuracy notwithstanding - on the tier's most established physical attackers and cripple them for the rest of the game. But even with it almost always running Defog, Soft-Boiled, and Wisp Mew's expansive movepool allows you to literally tailor its single attack to your team's needs. No support mon can be this versatile with only one negotiable moveslot.

I'm also really eager to discuss Gengar, since someone brought it up earlier, so I might make an edit here when and if I do.
 

MegaStarUniverse

Banned deucer.
from A+ to A. not much to say about this but it requires support and it seems scary because of the charti, psychicium, firium, buginium z moves and other sets but it fails to sweep most of the time if you don't have the right set for the other team. For example if you have chari berry then Toxapex walls you. if you have psychicium then you fail to KO pokemon such as zygarde or heatran depending if you have HP ice or HP Ground. Buginium Z sets gets walled by Toxapex and Mantine. And Firium gets walled by Toxapex and Mantine as well. The point is Volcarona is either beating some or the other meaning it can't beat all of its counters and checks and the meta is adapting fast to this.

from A to A+. Mew is the best defogger in the current meta... it can do so many things and have so many moves to run such as earth power, ice beam, psychic, volt switch, etc just depending on the team and it gets the job done. it defogs on so much of the meta and cripples its threats with Wilo-Wisp. Mew is just so good at doing its job and is getting lots of usage in wcop. Also there may be more unknown sets in the future for this pokemon that will allow it to combat meta-game trends.

Just please drop Volcarona and rise Mew lol
 
Volcarona isn't some kind of behemoth that can 6 v 0 entire teams, it's a Pokemon that can sweep late game with the right support. Most teams have hazard removal, and whatever item it chooses the roadblock can be fixed with the right support. Volcarona is fine in a+
EDIT: The argument about 'it is stopped by something no matter what" is true, but it can also go the other way. Toxapex gets owned if Volcarona has Shattered Psyche, Mantine gets beat to a pulp if Volcarona has HP E, Heatran gets decimated by Hp ground, and so on. The only full stop to Volcarona is Chansey.
 
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Volcarona isn't some kind of behemoth that can 6 v 0 entire teams, it's a Pokemon that can sweep late game with the right support. Most teams have hazard removal, and whatever item it chooses the roadblock can be fixed with the right support. Volcarona is fine in a+
EDIT: The argument about 'it is stopped by something no matter what" is true, but it can also go the other way. Toxapex gets owned if Volcarona has Shattered Psyche, Mantine gets beat to a pulp if Volcarona has HP E, Heatran gets decimated by Hp ground, and so on. The only full stop to Volcarona is Chansey.
Volcarona doesn't and shouldn't run HP Electric. Zygarde and Heatran handle you way easier and even Toxapex can Haze pretty easily. Mantine is pretty much a hard counter.
 
I support a volcarona drop. It just isn't as scary as the playerbase makes it out to be: it's easily stopped by chansey, several prominent bulky grounds, and 100+ base speed scarfers... the scarfers and bulky grounds are ALL OVER the current metagame.

I know that the very fact that it's overprepared for can be used as an argument against its drop, but the fact is that because it's heavily prepared for, it isn't as good as it could be. To me, that's all the reason we need to drop it, to me. And that's BEFORE you consider the support it needs to function well - hazard removal plus team support depending on the set... yeah, this mon is currently overrated on the VR. That's an easy call IMO.
 
Toxapex to A+: agree
This little buddy's been doing it's thing all over SMOU since day 1. There is more set specialization to take care of this thing than there is most everything else in the tier. It and celesteela are the reason for most elec-z sets and the pex is really the only reason most off type psychium z sets exist. This thing has been something for offense to build for since day one and I don't see that changing until some new mons/moves/things are released. Gotta respect the pex.
 

(Someone tell me how to use sprites without dragging them into this so I don't look like a noob)
A+ -> A: Disagree

Volcarona is admittedly a bit predictable and is walled by good handful of extremely fat threats in OU, but what is arguably the best and most centralizing special sweeper in the tier thus far (I'm really partial to Autotomize Celesteela for that role when I build teams, though) should absolutely be ranked amidst the likes of Zygarde and the Greninjas, because although Stall and some Balance variants with Toxapex (which, as I said earlier, I fully support rising to A+) can stop it cold, this thing gives more offensive teams so much of a hassle that they need to prepare for it, often times by running something extremely specific like Scarf Chomp or Scarf Edge Keldeo. Volcarona is threatening enough that I almost always have to ask myself if I have a direct answer to this when building teams, be it by slapping Heatran (which gets blasted by HP Ground) onto a balance team, playing a full-blown stall team instead of a more offensive team, or forcing myself to run a base 101 speed scarfer with Stone Edge.

In addition, you can't really account for every set this thing can run. You can assume the Quiver Dance and you can assume the Fire STAB (either the more offensive Fire Blast variant or the rare bulkier Fiery Dance variant) but this thing has just enough coverage to severely punish an incorrect prediction. Although Psychium is a bit less common now, Toxapex risks getting OHKOed outright by an unboosted Shattered Psyche (and after rocks it always dies). And although you're limited to that one Z-move you can still severely punish a Heatran user for expecting an HP Ice with an HP Ground instead, and you can still severely punish a Zygarde user expecting an HP Ground with an HP Ice instead, since even the SpDef Coil variant is irreparably damaged.

I don't disagree that Volcarona has some relatively common counterplay. But its flexibility with Psychic, Giga Drain, HP Ice, and HP Ground (I really, really want to try that Hurricane variant to surprise rain teams) is enough to make it A+. You have to account for it just as much as you have to account for most of the other things in A+, and not accounting for it will result in a very, very swift 6-0 if you make one mistake ever.
 
I feel like some members of the ranking team need to comment on Volc again because it's gonna keep getting brought up until one of them says something, like what happened with the Zygarde to S noms.

Personally I don't think it should drop, defog isn't hard to implement into your team anymore. There's ofc Mantine and Chansey that beat all the sets but they are either really average, or just get trapped and removed. (Like Latios, Heatran, and Tyranitar) it adapts way faster to the meta than the meta adapts to it.

~everything below is just showing how it adapted.~

zfire until THAPEX was on every team because of pheromosa, it now runs zpsy. After mosa ban, Zygarde usage skyrocketed decreasing the overall popularity of Heatran which made hp ice > hp ground a thing. People realise that they can't rely on pure defensive way to beat it anymore (unless Chansey) and usage of stone edge keld, nihi, and rock move chomp also become near omnipresent on good teams. Due to this, Charti Berry starts to rise. The ban of Mega Metagross nets Latios and Tyranitar more usage (which neither even check properly cause they get fucking trapped) which lets it run zbug + hp ground. Now people are running Mantine which is the only meta trend that Volc hasn't adapted too.
 
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These are the most generic arguments for a volcornoa drop ever man.

"It requires team support" so does every mon except for like Lando-T.
It's over prepared for. Not really 101+ scarfers on offensive teams is not some new trend that wasn't around before it rose. "This Pokemon has Pokemon that can stop it" lmao so does every sweeper if Volcorna could 6-0 every team then it would be Uber's but like every other sweeper it needs a few things gone before it can sweep.

Listen at the end of the day this mon is A+ because it is a great sweeper that can do a lot very easily and has no true counters outside of niche mons like mantine. Keep Volcorona at A+
 
You know, Volcarona is fine and good but it has big problem - Competition as set up sweeper.

In same tier we have mon that resist rocks isn't weak to aqua jet and beside chansey has "no counters". Moreover can carry multiple movesets, item option allowing it set up even on it's "checks". And after every kill you get extra boost. At this point I am quite sure you know which mon I mean.

And that's true reason why Volcarona is less used than in the past. In entire round one of world cup it get used 8 times giving it 3% usage. Someone might say that usage!=viability but I heavily disagree. This low number shows it's weakness against common playstyles like stall and rise in popularity of Ttar, toxapex, chansey, tornt (there is no single moveset to cover them all!). Viability ranking should not show viability under "perfect condition" but rather viability in current state of meta and looking at replays, looking at stats there is no doubt that in Volcarona's case viability is clearly falling.

Drop Volcarona.
 

Indigo Plateau

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Why are Magearna and Volcarona comparison talks coming up again? Didn't Gary already state before that they weren't comparable? Besides, Magearna is S for a reason lol

I think A+ is fine for Volc. Hazard control isn't a big issue considering most teams carry defog and Mew/Latios aren't hard to fit on teams really. People have mentioned that it's a one-dimensional sweeper in a way, and although this is true, it really has a plethora of sets that have impacted the meta and left it with only two real answers: Chansey and Mantine (Volc gets Wild Charge lol new meta). Yes, depending on the set, there can be an extra answer, but it's also not hard or detrimental to run something like Dugtrio for proper team support. For example: HP Ice instead of HP Ground? Duggy removes both Heatran and Chansey, and now you have to be very careful to not get set up on. Its arsenal of moves (3 viable z moves + coverage) is expansive enough to threaten teams that don't pack the right answer for the corresponding set.

The thing with Volc is that although it might not feel as consistent or splashable as other mons in A+, like Celesteela or Zygarde, its offensive presence impacts the metagame in a restrictive way - moreso than the rest of A+, I think. Others before me have stated exactly how Volc has been able to adapt against the meta every time the meta has adapted against it, and this goes to show how much of a nuisance it really is. Its offensive prowess is also backed up by being able to switch in to a variety of mons like Tapu Bulu, Mawile, Ferrothorn, Tangrowth, Mew, Clefable, and Scizor. For these reasons, and especially for the fact that Volc has too much of a restrictive impact on the meta and teambuilding, I think it should stay in A+.
 
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(Posting on mobile so forgive the mess)
Lets not derail the thread with this tbh.
At this point in time i'd argue that the volcarona nomination should be halted, because it's becoming the Zygarde to S Rank argument was, and also, Volcarona's usage does not correlate to its viability in the current meta.
I'd also argue that Volcarona does not have a bad matchup in the current meta at all, its easier than ever to have hazard removal. With Mew, Latios and Mantine getting more traction as of late.
I'm not going to go into detail about Volc's checks as they've already been covered, but with each specific move its checks are ruined, meaning that the only true counter to Volcarona is Chansey.

In short, keep Volcarona A+, and i hope that this topic ends soon so the thread doesn't derail further.
 
it's also not hard or detrimental to run something like Dugtrio for proper team support.
So now it needs two mons besides it to function properly? Like yeah sure lol dugtrio and Mew aren't hard to fit on a team, but I can't think of any A+ mon that *requires* another poke to be run effectively, much less two other pokes.

And also complaining about everytime a topic is discussed extensively is way more cancerous and off topic than a topic being discussed extensively like hello??? you can't derail the thread with something perfectly on topic with it but w/e
 
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