Metagame SM Ubers General Metagame Discussion

From my experience thus far Darkceus is a very good mon rn for a couple of reasons:

Counter to both new Ubers
- Judgement ~69-81% to Lunala [with Shadow Shield, unboosted, no special Investment | 0HP EVs Lunala], Moonblast does only ~50% to Darkceus in return
- Judgement ~80-95% to Solgaleo [0HP/SpDef Solga], Sunsteel Strike does only ~33-39%

Great vs. offensively strong Psychics (like DeoxysA + Tapu Lele)

Immunity to Prankster makes this a counter to Klefki

Dealing with two common good Defoggers being GiratinaO and Ghostceus

Plus most teams carry an answere to Fairys anyway thanks to Xerneas


Thoughts?
 
dark arc is great yes, totally owns the new alola pokes (although toxic solg would certainly annoy it and it doesn't exactly appreciate lunala's wow). cm sludge bomb, as recommended to me by the drizzlers, is what I've mainly been using. it is more than viable, there goes your xern (and... tapu lele? is this being used? it seems mediocre). hits darkrai too and has a nice poison chance which is useful for ogre and such. wisp is fine obviously and it's probably still worth using refresh sometimes
 
dark arc is great yes, totally owns the new alola pokes (although toxic solg would certainly annoy it and it doesn't exactly appreciate lunala's wow). cm sludge bomb, as recommended to me by the drizzlers, is what I've mainly been using. it is more than viable, there goes your xern (and... tapu lele? is this being used? it seems mediocre). hits darkrai too and has a nice poison chance which is useful for ogre and such. wisp is fine obviously and it's probably still worth using refresh sometimes
Sludge is a cool tech, subbed refresh for it and did some work for me

Lele is more of an Support mon with terrain ext for DeoxA; 315 BP Psycho Boost + LO is a monster
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
I have personally been using Mega Gengar a lot as of recently cause there is legit no opportunity cost of running HypnoGar besides missing out on running Mega Mence (although the Aerilate nerf hit it more than I thought it had, OHKOes last gen are becoming 2HKOes this gen at +1 which does hamper it a lot). HypnoGar really does not have much counter play as you stated cause it's always a toss up on whether or not the Gar will sub or try to sleep you even if u have like Sleep Talk Xerneas or Kyogre. However, I personally don't feel it's too much of an issue to be dealt with atm since the meta is still so fresh and we have other shit to take care of (Psychic Terrain bs...).

Moderator edit: this goes for the ubers community as a whole but especially this user. Subtle, passive aggressive hints for suspect tests will be met with infractions rather than editing/deletion in the future. Repeatedly walking the line will be met with zero tolerance from this point.
 
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MGengo is really...something. Being the prime mon to sleep after Dark Void got nerfed into infinity (Darkrai is still a powerful offensive threat tho) is nice and takes over protects moveslot. pairing it with Perish Song can net some cheap kills or force beneficial switches for Gengars team, while dbond can trade a weakened Gengar for a full life mon if smartly predicted. What keeps it in check for me is the advent of Psychics and Dark Types with mons like DeoxA, Tapu Lele, Yveltal and Darkceus. Though I don't like Shadow Tag; it basically disables a core game mechanic in switching unless you run shed shell or are a sp00key ghost, something I would name uncompetitive, but for now it can be dealt with
 

Fireburn

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Anyway the infant SM metagame is about a week old now, having played it for some time I'd like to share my impressions:

New Mons:
  • Solgaleo is good, though I probably overhyped it. It's very good against Xerneas and provides a sturdy Flying and Psychic resist but otherwise doesn't switch in on too much, and it suffers from weaknesses to very common Fire, Ground, Ghost, and Dark-type moves which doesn't help it too much. Still some sets I like though: bulky sets with Toxic can switch in on Xerneas all day and can 1v1 most support Arceus formes, Z-Splash is a pretty nice wallbreaker and can sweep teams with some assistance from Sticky Web or paralysis, Scarf evades being trapped by Mega Gengar and can check quite a few Pokemon that give defensive teams some problems...there's other sets I want to try with it too.
  • Lunala on the other hand is very good and can be pretty difficult to handle without a Dark-type. Shadow Shield and its raw defensive stats make Lunala extremely difficult to KO, and on offense it's quite formidable with high SpA, STAB Ghost, and impeccable special coverage. It can run a lot of sets effectively, though Scarf and bulky Wisp/CM sets stand out as being particularly useful.
  • I like Zygarde-Complete. It suffers a fair bit from low offensive presence and you really want hazards support to make the most of its shuffling capabilities, but Zygarde-Complete has magnificent physical bulk and works nicely as a catch-all check to almost everything physical. Primal Groudon has no hope of beating this thing without Swords Dance and CB Ho-Oh can only muster a 4HKO with Brave Bird which is honestly ridiculous and is a testament to just how much of a tank this mon is.
  • Tapu Lele is interesting. On its own it's mediocre (though it packs a punch), but the support Tapu Lele provides with Psychic Terrain can't be overlooked. Turns out dealing with Deoxys-A and Mewtwo when they're immune to priority and can OHKO Ho-Oh is kind of hard. PsySpam teams were pretty popular in the first few days, though it remains to be seen if it was just a fad - like Sticky Web teams, PsySpam seems a bit matchup reliant and will struggle if it encounters something like Scarf Lunala.
  • I didn't like Magearna's prospects at first, but upon actually using Magearna I actually think it's pretty cool. It's a lot bulkier than Klefki and Fleur Cannon actually lets it kill Yveltal and Arceus-Dark which is cool. Heart Swap absolutely screws over Xerneas which is pretty hilarious. The lack of Toxic actually sucks a lot in terms of harassing Primal Groudon, though Reflect and Pain Split are still decent anti-PDon moves.
  • Not too much activity as of yet from Ultra Beasts, though some of them have some niches. Pheromosa is quite strong and makes a nice pivot with STAB U-turn, plus it gets the coveted Rapid Spin, though it's extremely fragile and has some issues dealing with Ghost-types. Celesteela is a pretty nice Salamence check and Leech Seed + typing gives it some nice general utility, plus it can also check Xerneas to some extent. It does have to compete with Bronzong, who gets Stealth Rock and can do more damage to Xerneas. Nihilego is a decent hazard setter that can check Xerneas courtesy of typing and Clear Smog, and its good special stats can help tank support Arcs and keep Mega Sableye at bay, though poor physical bulk keeps it from checking Ho-Oh and Mega Salamence too well which is kind of a bummer. I've also seen Xurkitree and Kartana a few times but I'm not too fond of their fragility.
Metagame in General:
  • Primal Groudon is still on almost every team, though the Thunder Wave/burn nerfs have made it slightly less good at wearing down Lugia and support Arcs.
  • Hypnosis Mega Gengar is rather obnoxious. I've been liking Pursuit Deoxys-A as a way to help keep it at bay, though it is very annoying.
  • Z-Geomancy Xerneas is kind of silly, but it still loses to Solgaleo and phazers still own it so it's not too bad imo.
  • The Aerilate nerf seems to have hurt Salamence usage somewhat - it misses some more kills at +1 after SR on things like defensive Kyogre, Arceus, bulky Xerneas, etc. It also gained some more checks in Zygarde-Complete, bulky Lunala, and Magearna. It's still a great mon though.
  • Primal Kyogre is really good this gen. The lack of Lati@s eliminated a strong check, and defensively it handles Solgaleo well and can stand up to Lunala. The Aerilate nerfs also make it somewhat less prone to getting killed by Salamence. Palkia may see a bit of a usage increase to help deal with it, especially since Z-Heal Block gives it a pretty fun new toy.
  • Dark-types seem to be vastly more useful than the previous gen. Yveltal was the big winner here: it checks both Solg and Luna well and benefits a lot from the lack of Darkrai and Mega Diancie, and the Prankster nerf means it can even beat Klefki pretty consistently now. Definitely going to be one of the top threats this generation. Arceus-Dark is also solid since it can check even Yveltal with a Calm Mind set, and it too enjoys Klefki being worse.
  • In a similar vein, Arceus-Fairy seems to be more useful since it can beat all those Dark-types more consistently than Xerneas.
  • Lucario benefits a lot from the new Mega Evolution turn order mechanics and the increase in Dark-types.
  • Haven't seen very many Deoxys-S teams. The Darkrai nerf seems to have hurt this style a lot, along with Deoxys-A being more appealing this gen with its strong offensive capabilities and potential for Psychic Terrain. Most HO builds I've seen so far seem to be using Deo-A or Excadrill leads, or are Shuckle Web/PsySpam. Sticky Web in general seems a bit more consistent this gen with the lack of Lati@s and Mega Diancie, as well as Gengar losing Levitate, though Yveltal/Mence are still threats and Solgaleo being immune to Sticky Web makes it a real nuisance.
  • Balanced/bulky offense teams are still good as usual. I haven't seen full Stall very much, which I think is because of Lunala manhandling most old stall cores. Will be interesting to see how it can adapt.
  • I haven't seen a single Lugia. The new legends and the large spike in Dark-types have made life pretty hard for it, though it does benefit from the burn nerf.
  • My opinion may run contrary to some others' here, but personally I think Klefki is mediocre in this meta. Its defensive utility has shrank quite a lot: Darkrai and Lati@s are gone, the Dark-type Prankster immunity means that it will often outright lose to Yveltal (Taunt/Knock Off) and bulky CM Arceus-Dark (can't do enough damage with Play Rough to beat it), and the paralysis nerf + increase in Rest sets makes it much less reliable against Xerneas. It's hard to justify Klefki for "role compression" nowadays when its roles are both fewer in quality and quantity. That being said, Spikes are still great and will likely retain a niche for Klefki in the metagame going forward, but I don't see it necessarily being my "go-to" Steel-type anymore.
Hope you guys are enjoying the metagame!
 
I have seen flame charge solgaleo (with or without z-splash) cleaning up some teams as well. definitely worth mentioning.

what is the purpose of scarf lunala?

mega luc is great. adamant outruns even 252+ solg/luna by 1 point, strong bp is as good as ever for xern, who along with ekiller and ogre is the thing I'm consistently scared of most (barring stupid gengar bullshit)
 
Why is Hypnosis Mega Gengar that popular? I mean no one used it in XY and no one used it in ORAS. It's spammed on ladder these days and people really hope for a 60% hit chance. Almost as good as the people who are using Turn 1 Geomancy lol

Also re/re Arceus seems to be great in SM. In ORAS times it was rere Rockceus most of the time. Now Darkceus seems to be very strong
 
Why is Hypnosis Gengar that popular? I mean no one used it in XY and no one used it in ORAS. It's spammed on ladder these days and people really hope for a 60% hit chance. Almost as good as the people who are using Turn 1 Geomancy lol
Because it does not need Protect anymore. Although I admit I don't like Hypnosis that much - maybe some other pick will become popular later as well.
 
Because it does not need Protect anymore. Although I admit I don't like Hypnosis that much - maybe some other pick will become popular later as well.
I don't think protect has something to do with Hypnosis. There are enough other moves for Gengar. Wow, Sub, D-Bond + usually 2 or 3 attacking moves. Even 4 attacks are possible and pretty nice. Sludge Wave and Shadow Ball are good STAB moves, focus blast hits like a truck and icy wind is a gimmick but pretty nice against Mega Salamence. Even Sucker Punch is possible since Protect isn't needed anymore. It's just for Deo-A or low life MM2Y. You don't need it that often but it can be very helpful. Especially when people are using Pursuit Deo-A, like Fireburn mentioned before
 
I don't think protect has something to do with Hypnosis. There are enough other moves for Gengar. Wow, Sub, D-Bond + usually 2 or 3 attacking moves. Even 4 attacks are possible and pretty nice. Sludge Wave and Shadow Ball are good STAB moves, focus blast hits like a truck and icy wind is a gimmick but pretty nice against Mega Salamence. Even Sucker Punch is possible since Protect isn't needed anymore. It's just for Deo-A or low life MM2Y. You don't need it that often but it can be very helpful. Especially when people are using Pursuit Deo-A, like Fireburn mentioned before
Because people realised relying on a 60% chance to win takes zero skill, and can get rid of 3-4 of the opponent's mons making a win easy
 
You don't even need to rely on the 60% chance for Mega-Gengar to be great.
It's a very good revenge-killer and stall-breaker.
I play the 60% thing only in last resort situation.
However if there's a mon that can't severly damage it, you can play Hypnosis right away (or sub if it can't break the sub), then set up your sub and it's very hard to kill it when the sub is up, because you have two Hypnosis chances which is a 84% chance.
 
In the midst of all the other Pokemon rising and falling in Ubers, I feel like Yveltal deserves a place at the table for discussion. With Solgaleo and Lunala being introduced, Yveltal has become much more useful. As of now it seems that generation seven could be its prime. I've personally been using it to support my scarfed Lunala, and it has yet to let me down. Especially with dark types immune to prankster now, it is sure to prosper. If somebody thinks its gotten worse in generation seven, or is just to remain stagnant, please tell me.
 
i feel like ttar is pretty good right now.
pursuit trapping lunala and gengar is nice and gira-o being the seemingly most popular defogger atm helps its viability
making your team less yveltal weak is also very valuable this gen
guess you could say it helps vs the more prevalent darkceus too but i wouldnt consider it a good check as it cant really beat it

edit: actually no idea about how good sand+exca is this gen so wont comment on that


salamence is probably as strong as ever and i think earthquake is the best set, especially since more targets (solgaleo, magearna) were added this gen.
plus it deals more dmg than double double egde to stuff like pdon and gengar now
 
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Lacus Clyne

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Scarf ttar is terrible. Mega gengar is faster than it lol.
I wasn't referring to Quinn's post if you were trying to answer my post. I meant that people don't use the item in general. There are many Pokémon that can use this item in order to outspeed the trending threats. Good examples are Scarf Yveltal and Lunala. Both are excellent revenge killers. Yveltal can use U-Turn to gain momentum and get urself in a better position against all the common checks in Psychic teams while Lunala is useful to get rid of a weakened E-Killer.
 
I wasn't referring to Quinn's post if you were trying to answer my post. I meant that people don't use the item in general. There are many Pokémon that can use this item in order to outspeed the trending threats. Good examples are Scarf Yveltal and Lunala. Both are excellent revenge killers. Yveltal can use U-Turn to gain momentum and get urself in a better position against all the common checks in Psychic teams while Lunala is useful to get rid of a weakened E-Killer.
Oh, I misunderstood your post, sorry.

Yeah, I agree that scarfmons are great. I'm not a fan of Scarf Land-t, but it still got uses. Scarf Kyogre is probably better than you'd expect, especially when you can remove opposing PDon 60% of time with Gengar.
 

shrang

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I really should be the last person to sing praises to the weak shit known as Ekiller, but I like how it's gained a bit of defensive utility since Ghosts are stronger now. I personally like the bulky sets with Recover in the current metagame. There's no point running Jolly atm since other max Spe Arcs either don't stop ES or are non-existant, and apart from Mega Luc, there's nothing >100 base Spe worth bothering with. Run enough Speed to outspeed Solgaleo and Lunala and the rest in Atk and HP with ES and Shadow Claw and you got yourself a mon that can switch into Ghost moves and their coverage relatively easily.
 
I can't see EKiller being too godly in a metagame with M-Gengar being practically mandatory, and now being able to mega-evolve before outspeeding you. Though at least they're not running Focus Blast anymore.

I never liked bulky E-Killer because you're still vulnerable to status and phazers-in other words, what teams will use to beat Arceus. Perhaps there's something I'm missing about it, though.

I think E-Killer can still be good, but you can't just throw it on a team anymore. You need to support it. I guess the Tapu Misty form is good for that.
 
The Soul Dew nerf did shit on the latis but I still see them having some utility in the meta. For offensive purposes they are shit, and they don't fare much better defensively (cm ogre has a chance to ko after rocks with ice beam and don's lava plume does ~30) but Defog sets are still viable. With refresh darkceus and z-geoxern around Roar is suddenly much more viable on don than Thunder Wave, to the point where it's almost mandatory, which means SR don have fewer ways to damage lati, especially since Lava Plume seems more common than Rock Slide or Edge atm, and the burn nerf doesn't help either. Basically what this means is Lati can switch in on don most of the time and defog with relatively little risk. The loss in power makes it much easier to switch into and Pursuit trap, however, and it only does ~40 to scarf xern, which is pretty pathetic.
 

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