Resource SM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final SM Update - #479)

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Nayrz

is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Ubers Leader
#1

sick art courtesy of HotFuzzBall! (source)

General Thread Rules:
  • Post intelligently. Random posts saying things like "X should be x rank" without context or supporting evidence isn't gonna fly here.
  • Be civil when debating with other users. Any flaming will not be tolerated and moderators will be keeping a special eye on this thread in particular to keep shitposting to a minimum - consider this your warning!
  • Please do not bring up ban/suspect discussions in this thread. Any and all possible upcoming tier-policy decisions will be brought up from the Ubers tier leaders themselves, and it won't be done in this thread.
  • Usage stats and replays are good to support your arguments, but avoid basing your entire argument around them. Make sure the replays are of good matches, from high ladder or high level tournaments. It's hard to take a bottom of the ladder replay seriously when discussing a Pokemon's viability.
  • A Pokemon not Ubers by tiering requires a skeleton or analysis in our C&C subforum before being placed on this list.
  • Nomination posts should include where in the sub-rank the Pokemon will place after the move. This is important to maintain an accurate sorting by viability list.
The Pokemon in the sub-ranks are fully ordered by viability, rather than alphabetical order. D rank is an exception, as it is a ranking simply to cover Pokemon not viable in the metagame, but are Ubers by tiering.

Nominations will be run by our Viability Council before being accepted into the rankings. They may also make their own nominations or movements, but these will come with explanations. The current members of the Viability Council are:

Hack (Tier Leader)
Fireburn (Tier Leader)
Nayrz (Moderator)
Level 56
Omfuga
The Trap God


And here's the rankings!

S Rank
S+

Primal Groudon

S

Xerneas

A Rank
A+

Arceus-Ground
Mega Gengar
Marshadow
Mega Salamence
Zygarde-C
Yveltal

A

Ho-Oh
Primal Kyogre

A-

Celesteela
Arceus-Water
Arceus-Fairy
Giratina-O
Rayquaza
Mega Lucario
Gothitelle
Deoxys-A
Ferrothorn
Mega Sableye
Toxapex

B Rank
B+

Lugia
Mega Scizor
Arceus-Normal
Deoxys-S
Dialga
Lunala
Excadrill

B

Magearna
Blissey
Tapu Lele
Arceus-Dark
Chansey
Mega Mewtwo Y
Giratina
Tyranitar
Mega Gyarados
Arceus-Flying
Bronzong
Mega Diancie

B-

Alolan Muk
Smeargle
Skarmory
Cloyster
Clefable
Landorus-T
Arceus-Ghost
Mega Tyranitar
Arceus-Poison
Mega Blaziken
Mega Mewtwo X
Mega Metagross
Shaymin-S

C Rank
C+

Arceus-Dragon
Buzzwole
Shuckle
Solgaleo
Klefki
Ditto
Dugtrio
Arceus-Grass
Palkia
Mewtwo
Aegislash
Zekrom

C

Mega Latias
Arceus-Rock
Kyogre
Darkrai
Arceus-Ice
Landorus
Tapu Koko
Kyurem-W
Arceus-Steel
Arceus-Electric

C-

Mega Kangaskhan
Genesect

D Rank

Arceus-Bug
Arceus-Fighting
Arceus-Fire
Arceus-Psychic
Blaziken
Deoxys
Deoxys-D
Groudon
Pheromosa
Reshiram
 
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Fireburn

BARN ALL
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Moderator
#2
Alright guys, the time has come to open this thread to the public. Please keep discussion civil and give thought to your nominations - we'll be monitoring this thread to make sure discussion stays of reasonable quality, so avoid one-liners and unsupported arguments. The Viability Council has done its best to try and get a decent preliminary list, but it is certainly expected things will shift as the metagame continues to develop.

Happy discussing!
 
#3
Nominating Landorus for B

Landorus has gotten much better from oras imo, removal of the lati twins and the darkrai nerf removes some of its common offensive answers. It sits in an above-average speed tier, with many mons only running creep for max speed Yveltal. The new additions to the tier, Solgaleo and Lunala, as well as Yveltal's increase in viability, make Landorus more prominent for its ability to revenge them. With coverage options such as Sludge Wave, HP Ice, and Knock Off, Landorus is able to hit more or less the entire tier for at least neutral damage, and has a good chance to 2hko support arceus formes on the switchin, as well as 2HKO Zygarde-C with HP Ice.
 
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#4

C+ -> B-

I've been using Buzzwole a lot on balance cores and this mon's gains is stupid. This thing eats Ground-types up like raw eggs and provides a hard check for MLuke that isn't pressured like Zygarde pre-Power Construct (also it checks Ekiller but no-one cares). Access to Roost is a great perk for a defensive mon and it has some respectable offensive presence with Hammer Arm. It's great against most offensive PDon sets since Fire Punch isn't as common on those, and it can threaten most of its checks like Ho-Oh or Yveltal with Toxic or Stone Edge. Granted Buzzwole has a very exploitable weakness in special attackers, Flying-types and Xerneas, but the things this thing checks on the physical side along with its great synergy with defensive mons like Arc-Water overcomes most of its flaws imo. For example:

+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Buzzwole: 182-215 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

tl;dr this is a great defensive stop for grounds and why is this beefcake lower than Solgaleo.
 
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Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
#5
Lets start this off with a controversial nom why dont we ;)



S -> A+

Was honestly really questionable to me when I first saw it placed in the S-Rank. Like I understand the transitions from ORAS Ubers to SM Ubers had benefited Yveltal immensely, but I quite don't feel its on the same level with Xerneas or Mega Gengar quite yet. If we look at it, Dark types have gotten much better due to Mega Diancie's absence and their overall ability to check the abundance of Psychic types that have been plaguing the ladder alongside the Prankster immunity. However, Yveltal still has trouble breaking through many of the old checks that used to counter it last generation with mainly Xerneas and Fairy Arceus being a huge nuisance to it which cannot really be overcomed without using a niche option in CB Steel Wing. It also has a difficult time breaking through other Dark types such as Arceus Dark and Tyranitar (if Yveltal is not running Focus Blast) which are both more common in this metagame to counteract Psychics. Its an incredibly potent pokemon that has several uses (especially with Specs Dark Pulse spam which no lie is scary af), but really by comparison is not an S-Rank imo. It gets forced out too many times to be in the top rank.



A- -> A

Physically defensive Zygarde-C is just too much of a defensive threat to be in A-. The fact that it can wall so many physical attackers such as Primal Groudon, Arceus, Mega Lucario, Mega Salamence, etc is a testament to how it warps the metagame around it in a sense. I have seen so many physical attacking mons opting to run Ice coverage now (ex: HP Ice Pdon) just to actually be able to 2HK0 this tank which really proves how effective it is. Other sets such as RestoChesto Dragon Dance and RestTalk Coil sets are also very good and can carry games pretty well. It does has flaws in its semi-reliable recovery option in Rest and its crippling weakness to common types in Fairy, Ice and Dragon, however Zygarde-C still has proven to me that it is quite the dominant force in this current metagame that should rise to the A rank.
 
#6
Nominating Tapu Koko to rise from B- to B+.

Tapu Koko is the closest thing we've gotten to an ORAS Darkrai replacement on HO this gen, and is infinitely more versatile in that it's not constrained to only hyper offensive teams. Another quality over ORAS Darkrai is that it checks Yveltal, a boon massive on HO teams that are otherwise left very vulnerable to it (hint: Xerneas =/= good enough Yveltal check). The 130 speed tier allows it to Taunt opposing Defoggers and force a speed tie with Gengar-Mega in a cinch, Nature's Madness in conjunction with Taunt can cripple opposing Supportceus or simply chunk a PDon or Gira-O on the switch-in, Gigavolt Havoc gets inhuman OHKOs (Solgaleo, Xerneas, Ekiller, nothing is safe), and failing all else, it gets U-Turn. PDon bait that gets U-Turn. Pair it with a Kyogre, a Landorus-Therian, BOTH (cough STICKY WEBS cough), other U-Turners, the momentum is insane. In such a fast paced metagame as right now, it excels. I'd even go far enough to nominate it for A-, but that tier is extremely skewed atm and don't want to place it alongside mons that are both objectively better (cough Mega Luc) and worse (cough Arceus-Ghost) than it. It's ridiculous that it's been tiered alongside Palkia, Skarmory and Clefable, and underneath stuff like Darkrai, Iceceus and Zekrom, when it has a much more defined place and niche in meta than aforementioned.

There's a bunch of other changes to be made as well but one thing at a time I guess. At least at large, the list seems fairly accurate.
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
#7
Zygarde is fine where it is, yes in an ideal scenario a Zygarde-C at 100% that's awake is extremely hard to kill but quite honestly I find this an extremely rare scenario. In terms of checking Mega Lucario and Primal groudon, only a small amount of chip is required before Zygarde-50 is in range of +2 attacks, this is a scenario difficult to avoid if the person not using Zygarde plays reasonably competently. Even if you do get into complete forme the most you're likely going to be at is 60%, forcing you to Rest up almost immediately if you want to check those attackers throughout the game.

Xerneas is a pretty poor Yveltal check in practice in my experience, Dark Pulse into Oblivion Wing with Stealth Rock up is extremely threatening.
 
#8
Lets start this off with a controversial nom why dont we ;)



S -> A+

Was honestly really questionable to me when I first saw it placed in the S-Rank. Like I understand the transitions from ORAS Ubers to SM Ubers had benefited Yveltal immensely, but I quite don't feel its on the same level with Xerneas or Mega Gengar quite yet. If we look at it, Dark types have gotten much better due to Mega Diancie's absence and their overall ability to check the abundance of Psychic types that have been plaguing the ladder alongside the Prankster immunity.

I agree with the bolded text but I have to mention Dark-types have become great since they destroy the new Alolan legendaries. It's pretty evident that the Pokemon most benefited is Yveltal and the reasons are quite simple to explain, you already mentioned some of them but I'd like to add:
1-] Yveltal fits in almost every viable playstyle (though it's rare to see on stall) thanks to its access to a diversity of strong STAB and non STAB moves giving an excelent offensive presence.
2-] I'ts blessed by a solid stat spread and a fantastic double typing which allows it to have a helpful two types immunity.
3-]
Even though this burd is offensive, it checks / pressures a plethora of Pokemon, the defensive and offensive ones like Lunala, Solgaleo, Primal Groudon, Arceus-Ghost, Giratina-O etc, while having an okay recovery thanks to Oblivion Wing.
However, Yveltal still has trouble breaking through many of the old checks that used to counter it last generation with mainly Xerneas and Fairy Arceus being a huge nuisance to it which cannot really be overcomed without using a niche option in CB Steel Wing.
Okay firstly, Choice Band isn't the only item that works pretty cool on Ygod, in my opinion it's the best Life Orb user in the tier but Choice Specs does a decent job too.
Secondly, this sounds like a 1vs1 which it shouldn't.
As I previously said, Ygod is just a fabulous offensive bird it can also deal good damage to the Pokemon that can beat it, for example:
252+ SpA Life Orb Yveltal Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 191-226 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock - I should admit I would risk a little bit if the foe Xerneas is in Oblivion Wing range.
252+ SpA Life Orb Yveltal Oblivion Wing vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fairy: 161-191 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock - Okay I definitely won't risk anything here, it's obvious Fairyceus can tank it pretty well.
It also has a difficult time breaking through other Dark types such as Arceus Dark and Tyranitar (if Yveltal is not running Focus Blast) which are both more common in this metagame to counteract Psychics. Its an incredibly potent pokemon that has several uses (especially with Specs Dark Pulse spam which no lie is scary af), but really by comparison is not an S-Rank imo. It gets forced out too many times to be in the top rank.
I don't think this is a good reason to drop Yveltal since every Pokemon gets forced out when facing its counters / checks and Yveltal isn't an exception, nevertheless, its U-Turn access allows it to don't get complete baited by annoying opposing Dark-types as it can safely switch out gaining momentum.

tl;dr- Me and my broken english are tying to say that Yveltal should stay in S rank.
 
#9
I know this is a bit early to discuss this but why is Xurkitree so ranked so high already in the viability ranking?

Based on its bulk and typing, it shouldn't be able to find much switch in opportunities. 83 base speed is nothing impressive and while 173 SpA is quiet impressive I can't see it outdamage stuff like Primal Kyogre, Dialga, Deoxys-A or Kyurem-W.
 
#10
I think Arceus-Water should be dropped from A, possibly to B+ and maybe further down in future. Its typing was good in ORAS as there was fewer strong neutral hit against it, but right now the meta seems to be shifting towards a Dark/Psychic/Fighting core, and the fact that Arceus-Water doesn't resist any of those types really bugs me. Not resisting Xerneas and Lunala STAB is also annoying. Ultimately, it will found itself using recover a lot more than before and it's more difficult to perform its duties now
 
#11
I think Arceus-Water should be dropped from A, possibly to B+ and maybe further down in future. Its typing was good in ORAS as there was fewer strong neutral hit against it, but right now the meta seems to be shifting towards a Dark/Psychic/Fighting core, and the fact that Arceus-Water doesn't resist any of those types really bugs me. Not resisting Xerneas and Lunala STAB is also annoying. Ultimately, it will found itself using recover a lot more than before and it's more difficult to perform its duties now
take it easy

Arc water is still the best support arc and a necessity for many (good) teams

The luna/xern remark seems fairly nonsensical to me, no good arceus forme has ever resisted fairy nor ghost. I'm all for new gens changing things but this can't really be a big flaw.

Your post comes off as incredibly strong and it doesn't even seem like you thought this one through. In what world is Arceus-Water on the same level as Blissey?

I sorta do agree with the general sentiment that Yveltal doesn't belong in S, we probably hyped it a bit when we made the initial list.
 
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#12
I think that Arceus Fairy is a bit underrated right now, its defensive set with Earth Power for coverage can put a stop on Ygod and many dragons while also dealing some good damage on PDon. It can also run CM or status if you don't need Defog.
I think B+ is more accurate, but I can also see it rising up till A-.
 
#13
I know this is a bit early to discuss this but why is Xurkitree so ranked so high already in the viability ranking?

Based on its bulk and typing, it shouldn't be able to find much switch in opportunities. 83 base speed is nothing impressive and while 173 SpA is quiet impressive I can't see it outdamage stuff like Primal Kyogre, Dialga, Deoxys-A or Kyurem-W.
xurk can't switch in on much but it's great as a hit or miss mid-late game sweeper. if the opponent doesn't have any electric resists and you are able to hit z-hypnosis xurk suddenly becomes extremely threatening. on the downside it's pretty easy to revenge; any common scarfer, deo-a, and pheromosa can all outspeed it at +1 and ko it after just a little bit of prior damage (applicable for scarfers). priority is also able to hit xurk pretty hard; combined with hypnosis's relatively low accuracy and the reliance on sleep turns is why it's probably ranked as low as it is. however it can get around these issues somewhat with its decent speed, which allows it to outspeed, sleep, and set up on many slower attackers without taking chip damage.
 
#14
Primarily I am glad that Ygod finally moved up in the viability ratings. It's ability to be a pivot, a wall, a stall breaker (with support of taunt), or even just a flat out offensive threat gave it a well deserved rank.

A- -> A
It may seem a little far fetched but I truly do believe lunala deserves a high position in rankings. It has amazing coverage, can be a great scarf abuser, a CM user, a Trickroom setter (I've seen TR luna do amazing), and, my personal favorite, a specs abuser. While yes, you are 4x weak to dark and ghost, but after that what else is super effective against it. Not only that, you have moongeist and focus/moon blast to punish those dark/ghost types that try to switch in for free. Even then, it is pretty easy to pair is with mons like Ygod or arceus dark to cover those weaknesses. Specs luna is probably the most underrated set but I don't think people realize that specs luna basically 2HKOs everything in the tier barring chansey and blissey. Most team also lack ghost resist so they are basically forced to pick a sack each time luna comes in. If you are the scarf set, you have the ability to also be a revenge killer against mons like deo, ekiller, darkrai, and more. I think overall Lunala has a great usage a deserves a little more attention
 
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Minority

Numquam Vincar
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Moderator
#15
Yveltal isn't S. Its potency is not on the same level as Xerneas or Mega Gengar.

With Geomancy the former can place a high amount of strain on any archetype with minimal support. This is apparent when you see teams forced to stack multiple Xerneas checks and when they opt for Pokemon like Magearna, which don't do all that much outside of safeguarding against this big threat. Comparing Yveltal to the latter is just as unfavorable. Mega Gengar picks its matchups and can function as revenge killer, stall breaker, and utility mon all with a single set.

All three Pokemon can be utilized on just about any archetype. If you look at the number of solid teams in the current metagame that utilize Yveltal, they're comparable to the number of teams that opt for Xerneas or Mega Gengar. In terms of defensive synergy I'd put Xerneas as slightly better as it more easily runs bulk, isn't SR weak, and is a Dark resist that actually trumps darks. I'd put Mega Gengar as a bit worse, although this isn't as much of a concern when your ability is Shadow Tag. All of this is to say that Yveltal doesn't really have an edge over Xerneas or Mega Gengar when it comes to the number of teams that opt for it, while its potency in comparison is lower.


As for Lunala I feel that for now it's fine where it is.

A+ for this Pokemon is pretty absurd and I don't know how you can put it above balance staples like Ho-Oh, Giratina-O, or Arceus-Water, which provide more concrete roles and fit on a variety of teams. Largest problem I have with Lunala is that it's a Pokemon that doesn't really check anything, which makes it hard to fit onto a team if you didn't decide to build around it in the first place. Compare that to the Pokemon in A+ and A, all of which, with the exception of Deoxys-A, are frequently added to teams after the initial concept to fulfill a multitude of purposes.

It's also fair to mention that Lunala is especially impacted by hazards, Toxic, and burns because Shadow Shield is responsible for pretty much the only defensive synergy it does have. It is further limited by the fact that you don't want to run it with LO or Sandstorm (ttar would be nice to cover those horrible Ghost and Dark weaks). Offensively, Ghost is a strong typing, but a large part of why Lunala doesn't check much is because it has no good resistances. Pretty much the only Fighting-type in the tier, Pheromosa, just U-turns out and breaks Shadow Shield. The Normal-type immune has limited utility because the few Pokemon that do run Normal-type moves often opt for Ghost- or Dark-type coverage, which just smash Lunala. I think A- is a generous place for it when you consider that its next to Arceus-Dark, Arceus-Ground, and Primal Kyogre.
 
#16
That's fine if you may not like my opinion, but I will still continue to support it. I was primarily leaning towards just A much rather than A+ because I do acknowledge that A+ is a long shot. To further support my claim, I still believe that lunala is still on par if not higher than mons like Ho-oh and giratina-O. While Lunala does struggle with hazards, so does ho-oh and even arceus water (depending on the scenario). Arceus, ho-oh, and giratina are prone to toxic just as much as luna and every other non steel/poison/cleric mons in the tier. Especially giratina due to its lack of recovery. So hazards/toxic would apply the same way to the mons in the A ranking as they would to lunala. This is also why Ho-oh is never seen on a HO team, because HO does struggle to keep hazards off. Where as Luna can actually fit on ALL play styles within the tier, stall not so much but I have seen successful usage while laddering and competing in tours.. Not including Deo-A, all those mons in the A rank lack a diverse move pool and means of usage.

Now I want to expand on how lunala deserves to at least be A rank. As mentioned, Lunala can be used on any type of play style and does a pretty good job at it. The primary styles it is used on is balance, bulky-offense, and HO. While being able to be placed on any team style, it also helps deal with any team style which is extremely useful. HO being probably the more dominate of play styles, Luna, if scarf, can act as a good revenge killer against mons like rayquaza, deo-a, darkrai, and more. Additionally, You have the ability to use the z-hypnosis set which is an excellent late game or even mid game sweeper. You get your speed boost and the ability to still set up with CM. I already posted on how well specs can perform too against bulkier based teams so I'll just provide some replays on how lunala can be an excellent mon that deserves A ranking at least. Additionally I have used lunala to hit rank 1 multiple times on ladder and with great success at that.

 
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Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
#17
That's fine if you may not like my opinion, but I will still continue to support it. I was primarily leaning towards just A much rather than A+ because I do acknowledge that A+ is a long shot. To further support my claim, I still believe that lunala is still on par if not higher than mons like Ho-oh and giratina-O. While Lunala does struggle with hazards, so does ho-oh and even arceus water (depending on the scenario). Arceus, ho-oh, and giratina are prone to toxic just as much as luna and every other non steel/poison/cleric mons in the tier. Especially giratina due to its lack of recovery. So hazards/toxic would apply the same way to the mons in the A ranking as they would to lunala. This is also why Ho-oh is never seen on a HO team, because HO does struggle to keep hazards off. Where as Luna can actually fit on ALL play styles within the tier, stall not so much but I have seen successful usage while laddering and competing in tours.. Not including Deo-A, all those mons in the A rank lack a diverse move pool and means of usage.

Now I want to expand on how lunala deserves to at least be A rank. As mentioned, Lunala can be used on any type of play style and does a pretty good job at it. The primary styles it is used on is balance, bulky-offense, and HO. While being able to be placed on any team style, it also helps deal with any team style which is extremely useful. HO being probably the more dominate of play styles, Luna, if scarf, can act as a good revenge killer against mons like rayquaza, deo-a, darkrai, and more. Additionally, You have the ability to use the z-hypnosis set which is an excellent late game or even mid game sweeper. You get your speed boost and the ability to still set up with CM. I already posted on how well specs can perform too against bulkier based teams so I'll just provide some replays on how lunala can be an excellent mon that deserves A ranking at least. Additionally I have used lunala to hit rank 1 multiple times on ladder and with great success at that.



Again, people keep bashing it's weakness to hazard and status, but as long as you provide the correct teambuild around lunala, then you would have less to worry about. That would apply to any mon

The last part of your argument basically defines why minority said he didn't particularly like Lunala, it's a Pokémon you have to build round rather than one that brings utility to a team which means that it can be added to the initial concept you started out with. I've built a lot of SM teams and I can honestly say I've never used a non-scarf Lunala unless my original intention was to build with it, because Scarf is the only set that provides some utility. This argument doesn't just apply to any mon, viability is a loose term but in a sense it can be taken to mean how useful is it to put this Pokémon on a team and how effective is it in its role.

That being said, it's a recognisable fact in teambuilding now that for the most part, a Ghost resist is mandatory and Lunala is arguably the biggest factor for this(Mega Gengar too but having 5 Ghost resists doesn't stop it trapping the other mon without fear) and that's a fair argument to make in support of the effect it has on teambuilding in the metagame. That said, I have to appreciate the argument of what it's being ranked relative to. It simply isn't as prominent in the metagame as any of the mons in A, while it's placement alongside the mons in A- is fair. Leave it where it is.
 
#18
The last part of your argument basically defines why minority said he didn't particularly like Lunala, it's a Pokémon you have to build round rather than one that brings utility to a team which means that it can be added to the initial concept you started out with. I've built a lot of SM teams and I can honestly say I've never used a non-scarf Lunala unless my original intention was to build with it, because Scarf is the only set that provides some utility. This argument doesn't just apply to any mon, viability is a loose term but in a sense it can be taken to mean how useful is it to put this Pokémon on a team and how effective is it in its role.

That being said, it's a recognisable fact in teambuilding now that for the most part, a Ghost resist is mandatory and Lunala is arguably the biggest factor for this(Mega Gengar too but having 5 Ghost resists doesn't stop it trapping the other mon without fear) and that's a fair argument to make in support of the effect it has on teambuilding in the metagame. That said, I have to appreciate the argument of what it's being ranked relative to. It simply isn't as prominent in the metagame as any of the mons in A, while it's placement alongside the mons in A- is fair. Leave it where it is.
I get that but that would apply the exact same way to ho-oh which is what I based one of my points on. Ho-oh is in the same situation as luna when it comes to hazards for the most part and requires a solid build around it to keep it going. But yet Ho-oh is listed with A despite all of that. So would that not mean that he countered his own claim in his claim luna should not be above or on par to ho-oh and the others? Additionally you've said scarf is the only set that provides some utility which is not quite true to me with all due respect. The replays I show portray how different sets other than scarf can work on teams.
 
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Fireburn

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#19
A few quick noms of my own:

Mega Lucario A- -> Bottom of A: I don't think it's disputable that Mega Lucario is a Top 3 Mega at the moment alongside Gengar and Salamence. The turn order mechanic change buffed Mega Lucario significantly, allowing it to take advantage of its great Speed tier immediately, and given its ability to offensively check Xerneas well and pulverize most defensive Pokemon with extremely strong Adaptability boosted STABs and a potential Swords Dance makes Mega Lucario a massive threat to both offensive and defensive teams. It's a common sight on many offensive teams at the moment and it doesn't really need a team built around it to put in work, plus the increased viability of Dark-types this gen helps to curb its tendency to struggle with fast Ghosts. While it does have a clear weakness (poor bulk), its ability to threaten so much of the tier make it worthy of being bumped up a few notches imo.

Yveltal S -> Top of A+: Yveltal is borderline S/A+ to me but I think Minority makes fair points so I wouldn't be adverse to moving it down a bit. Can be in either rank tbh but I think A+ is slightly more accurate.

Mega Slowbro C+ -> B-: Underrated mon. It checks basically every physical mon in the meta except Ghostceus and the uncommon Zekrom, handles Ho-Oh/Mega Salamence better than last gen due to burn/Aerilate nerfs, hard checks Mega Lucario who has become significantly more common, and its typing and Regenerator can even let it help against stuff like Deoxys-A. Dislikes strong Ghost- and Dark-types but it also synergizes well with most things that check those Pokemon which helps it out, it seems to be clearly better than most of the stuff in C+, and crit immunity on a wall is soooo nice lol. I'd probably put it just below Tapu Koko.

Speaking of Tapu Koko, I think it's fine where it is for now. It certainly has some cool tricks but it also has two crippling flaws - bulk and reliance on Z-Move. Tapu Koko's bulk is atrocious, so much so that calling it a better Yveltal check than Xerneas isn't quite accurate I feel - Xerneas can at least switch into Dark Pulse, whereas LO Dark Pulse + Sucker Punch has a high chance to kill Tapu Koko before it can move, guaranteed with SR. Tapu Koko can't even switch into Scarf Yveltal since Dark Pulse 2HKOes after SR, limiting it only to the role of revenge killer for most practical purposes. Tapu Koko's offense is also quite dependent on the Z-Move in order to be meaningful, which while strong requires a fair amount of prediction to use since there is a really strong Ground-type on 95% of teams that is often backed up by 1-2 other Ground-types/Electric resists (meaning PDon doesn't always need to be risked to NM), and without the Z-Move your STAB becomes really unreliable. Don't get me wrong, Tapu Koko is a useful mon and can do quite a bit of damage when played correctly, but it is also a fairly prediction reliant mon due to its poor bulk and easily walled STAB. I could see it maybe going to low B, but B+ is pushing it imo.
 
#20
Speaking of Tapu Koko, I think it's fine where it is for now. It certainly has some cool tricks but it also has two crippling flaws - bulk and reliance on Z-Move. Tapu Koko's bulk is atrocious, so much so that calling it a better Yveltal check than Xerneas isn't quite accurate I feel - Xerneas can at least switch into Dark Pulse, whereas LO Dark Pulse + Sucker Punch has a high chance to kill Tapu Koko before it can move, guaranteed with SR. Tapu Koko can't even switch into Scarf Yveltal since Dark Pulse 2HKOes after SR, limiting it only to the role of revenge killer for most practical purposes. Tapu Koko's offense is also quite dependent on the Z-Move in order to be meaningful, which while strong requires a fair amount of prediction to use since there is a really strong Ground-type on 95% of teams that is often backed up by 1-2 other Ground-types/Electric resists (meaning PDon doesn't always need to be risked to NM), and without the Z-Move your STAB becomes really unreliable. Don't get me wrong, Tapu Koko is a useful mon and can do quite a bit of damage when played correctly, but it is also a fairly prediction reliant mon due to its poor bulk and easily walled STAB. I could see it maybe going to low B, but B+ is pushing it imo.
The first bolded bit there I don't think is fair, considering LO Yveltal 2hko's Xern after SR with Oblivion Wing, whereas Tapu Koko can at least outspeed non-Choiced variants (and, before you say Xern beats choice variants, I don't know what scarf Yveltal wouldn't U-Turn out to the Gengar for the easy Sludge Wave OHKO).

While Tapu Koko's offensive power is indeed largely dependant on the Z-Move, you aren't using Tapu Koko for its nuking ability; you're using it for fast taunt and U-Turn more than anything. Especially the latter in a metagame where momentum is critical; Tapu Koko is an ideal support mon for most all offensive teams in the metagame. (And, really, if you're against something that Tapu Koko is forcing out, like a Waterceus, and they have a full health PDon, don't click "use Z-Move". You're doing it wrong.) I stand by my nomination to B+ and think that it being placed alongside mons like Arceus-Ice and Zekrom isn't at all reflective of its impact on the metagame.

edit: but I totally agree with the Slowbro nomination like 100%, that mon is legit goodness. best defensive mega-luc check in the game
 

dream

It's Prime Time
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#21
Call me controversial all you want, but Dugtrio should be at least right above Arceus-Ice in B rank. Sure, it doesn't readily offer any defensive utility in terms of switching into anything. However, even defensively, which it seemily lacks utility, it is able to revenge kill a plethora of Uber Pokemon, most notably Primal Groudon, Mega Lucario, Mega Gengar (if you're using the sash set) and pretty much every steel or poison-type. It can also set up stealth rocks whilst doing so (far from optimal though) and even fire off emergency mementos or toxics against set-up threats or support Pokemon. Nonetheless, it's main niche lies within being able to come in and trap Pokemon that could present issues. My main use for it has been when paired up with Xerneas, making it that much more unstoppable. It is pretty much guaranteed to do something regardless of matchup, since it can revenge kill a weakened Primal Groudon (or even straight up kill it from full if the sash is intact or you still have your z-move unused). It also traps and disposes of Xerneas checks in Magearna, Klefki, Ho-Oh, Jirachi and Solgaleo. I honestly can't stress how valuable this Pokemon can be, and it is definitely more viable than Pokemon such as Arceus-Ice, Zekrom and Clefable, which currently sit above it in the rankings. Again, it might not be the most jaw-dropping performer, but the amount of support it provides is undeniable and huge.

Furthermore, I believe Yveltal should remain in S rank. It can run so many different sets, most of which are extremely effective in the current metagame. With the prankster nerf, it lost one of it's best checks in Klefki, thus making it stronger. Also, nothing really switches into offensive variants of this Pokemon:

252 SpA Choice Specs Yveltal Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 204-242 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Yveltal Oblivion Wing vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 201-237 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 46.5% chance to 2HKO

I've found Choice Specs sets to have been the most effective, with Dark Pulse and Oblivion Wing as the main ways to deal damage and recover health back, with Heat Wave to nail Magerna/Ferrothorn/Klefki/etc and U-Turn as a means of gaining momentum. Literally nothing switches freely into offensive variants of this monster, and it can run Life Orb and Banded sets effectively too. Even the seldom seen Defensive sets have a niche in checking physical threats, however small that niche might be. Yveltal is just so unpredictable and versatile and also provides a ton of defensive utility in comprising roles such as being a ground and psychic immunity, having a STAB priority move in Sucker Punch, as well as being able to check a plethora of recurrent Pokemon in the metagame.
 
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#22
Yveltal is good sure but just doesn't possess the versatility of the other two mons in S rank. Xerneas's viability comes from its ability to muscle through its common checks, isn't weak to SR, and doesn't need a Choice or recoil-causing item to boost its damage output to highly threatening levels. Aside from Ho-Oh, which has arguably gotten worse from ORAS due to the removal of the Lati twins and the introduction of Zygarde, which makes you think twice about clicking Sacred Fire due to its low PP, most Xerneas answers don't have reliable recovery, while the ones that do (think the blobs) lose to RestTalk variants. On the other hand, many of the most common Yveltal answers (support arceus formes, ho-oh) have reliable recovery. Specs Xerneas is able to 2HKO most of its answers with the appropriate coverage option, which Yveltal is unable to do since Dark STAB is resisted by a fair amount of the metagame in addition to being weaker than Moonblast, and Oblivion Wing isn't boosted by Dark Aura, going to show even in terms of raw power Yveltal is still outperformed by Xerneas.

Mega Gengar is a similar case, although it might not possess the immediate power and takes up the Mega slot it more than makes up for this with Shadow Tag. Extremely good speed tier, immunity to the most common priority move, and access to support moves such as Disable/Taunt/DBond/Sub/PSong as well as offensive coverage such as Icy Wind and Focus Blast forces a prediction every time it comes in. With Yveltal, it's fairly easy to discern its set from a single turn or two given Life Orb recoil is visible, the damage output from choiced sets can be easily calced, and you can double switch to scout for coverage. This isn't the case with Gengar, as many sets share moves in common, so a set could just as easily be Taunt/Destiny Bond as 4 attacks, and the element of scouting to determine sets is removed through Shadow Tag. Likewise, you can't tell if a Xerneas is running 3 attacks geoxern, resttalk, or scarfed if your opponent is smart since they'll conserve a potential Geomancy or reveal scarf for when they'll have the most effect.

e: Agree with dugtrio rising; new targets in Solgaleo/Magearna along with z-moves giving it a power boost, access to Memento/SR/Sucker Punch and not getting trapped by gar makes up for its shitty defensives imo
 
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Minority

Numquam Vincar
is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
#23
I thought it went without saying, but a Pokemon's ability to 2HKO most things with Specs and proper coverage doesn't make it S rank. I can think of several other Pokemon that do this: Lunala, Landorus, Reshiram, Kyurem-W. LO Kyurem-W 2HKOs like everything in the tier excluding Chansey, doing so without even being choice locked, but I'd guess that not many people would like to see it in S rank.

To be S rank, Yveltal's potency has to be about equal to the undoubtably S rank threats of Xerneas and Mega Gengar. Yveltal is a powerful Pokemon, but arguments were already presented as to why it's not on par with Xerneas and Mega Gengar. A+ is high enough.
 

Aaronboyer

Pullin' Out the Big Guns
is a Pre-Contributor
#24
hoopaages.jpg

Perhaps its my incapability to find it on the VR, but where is Hoopa-Unbound? It runs several effective sets, enough to warrant some kind of ranking IMO. It's one of few Pokemon that can run all 3 Choice items effectively, and as of recently, it has received the ability to hold Darkium-Z, which in combination with Snatch, provides +2 Speed to this otherwise low-speed-tier-crippled wall-breaker. Additionally, it can use Black Hole Eclipse at BP 160 (Dark Pulse) or BP 180 (Hyperspace Fury) if Snatch is not desired. It isn't a fantastic Pokemon that you can slap onto every team, but it has some noteworthy features that IMO deserve some sort of mention on the VR.

Hoopa-Unbound Unranked---->Somewhere
 
#25
View attachment 76660
Perhaps its my incapability to find it on the VR, but where is Hoopa-Unbound? It runs several effective sets, enough to warrant some kind of ranking IMO. It's one of few Pokemon that can run all 3 Choice items effectively, and as of recently, it has received the ability to hold Darkium-Z, which in combination with Snatch, provides +2 Speed to this otherwise low-speed-tier-crippled wall-breaker. Additionally, it can use Black Hole Eclipse at BP 160 (Dark Pulse) or BP 180 (Hyperspace Fury) if Snatch is not desired. It isn't a fantastic Pokemon that you can slap onto every team, but it has some noteworthy features that IMO deserve some sort of mention on the VR.

Hoopa-Unbound Unranked---->Somewhere
I don't think Hoopa-U is viable in Ubers. It has pathetic defense and no reliable recovery, so most physical attacks 2HKO, it falls short of the crowded base 90 Speed tier, and doesn't quite have enough power to break through walls like Primal Groudon or support Arceus forms like Waterceus. It's setup bait to Xerneas, since it'll go last and be forced out with the threat of getting KOed by Moonblast, Lunala also outruns Hoopa-U and can hit it with Moonblast, it has a lot of problems that make it generally not worth using in Ubers.
 
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